Middlesborough away match thread

[ExiledAjax]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just posted elsewhere that O’Leary has surpassed my expectations, but Tommy, I’ve been pretty convinced he had something from the first few times I saw him.  To be doing it at Champ level so young is incredible when you think about it.  He’s a diamond.

O’Leary 26 (A)

Vyner 25 (A)

Low 20 (A) for Weimann 31 (£2.500m)

Klose 34 (free)

Pring 24 (A)

Dasilva 24 (£2.000m) for Semenyo 22 (A)

Williams 25 (£1.250m)

James 31 (free)

Scott 19 (A)

Bell 20 (A) for Conway 20 (A)

Wells 32 (£2.800m)

“Ballsy”!!!

Not a single player aged 27-30. Sigh.

[pongo88]

20 minutes ago, Gazred said:

Just to single this out for a moment, i think he's put himself in the same value bracket as Semenyo, his all round game was again top notch. Would not be surprised to see interest in Jan.

I think Conway is a better prospect. Semenyo has bursts of exciting play but Conway has good consistency for such a young player 

[Gazred]

Just now, pongo88 said:

I think Conway is a better prospect. Semenyo has bursts of exciting play but Conway has good consistency for such a young player 

Agree. Semenyo more about the physical power and direct play. Conway, like Scott just has 'it', an intelligence you cant easily teach.

[Rudolf Hucker]

Under NP, at the age of 19, Alex Scott has played c 60 championship matches. When he is eventually sold, it will likely be for a substantial fee. Tommy Conway is 20 years old, has played c 20 Championship matches, is our leading scorer this season and likewise will one day leave us for a big wedge of money. Our precarious FFP position has forced NP to give a chance to our Academy starlets. Finally, we’re seeing a production line in operation following more than a decade of slim pickings (with apologies to messrs Reid, Bryan and Kelly). It’s been kicked into life by NP, largely due to financial circumstance but also because of his belief that “if you’re good enough, you’re old enough”.

The approach of NP in this regard is welcome, exciting and frustrating in equal measure but will serve the club very well over time. It’s of great credit to him. He not only is helping us to get out of the hole dug for us by Mark Ashton et al but he’s set up a blueprint for our future - all whilst clinging onto our place in the Championship. It’s a big ask but he’s getting on with it and I can think of nobody else I’d trust to do so. Those who want him out are, in my view, of the “jam today” persuasion; personally, I’m in the “jam forever” camp. To get there ain’t gonna be easy; we’re going to need to be patient and have some luck along the way. It’s probably not the only way but, imo, it’s the best one.

Changing manager (together, inevitability, with his entire, loyal back room team) would be hugely expensive, disruptive, likely lead to relegation this season and will set back our progress by 2-5 years. 

Best stick to the devil we know imo. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Rudolf Hucker

[daored]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

If us “Nige lovers” didn’t have to spend so much time going back over the same old shit about the context of the mess, the “Nige out” crew might actually get to read our true views.

Us Nige lovers, don’t think he’s the messiah, nor he hasn’t pulled our pants down, but we have an appreciation of the size of the task at hand, and importantly recognise the impact that has.

To suggest we should be in a better place than when he took over, is basically an impressive display of ignorance on their part.

For me his remit is simple keep us up whether that’s by points or GD I really don’t care. Then let him work in our revised financial position and THEN judge him 

[Davefevs]

For those of you interested, here are this weeks League fixtures:

 

I’ve added in their league position and Pts total.  I’ve highlighted those below us.  Just one “6-pointer”.

Rotherham, Blackpool, Stoke, Middlesbrough, Hull and Wigan all need to win to go above us.  Draws are not good enough for any of them, except Rotherham who’d need to draw 4-4 to go level.  In Wigan’s case they’d need to win by 8 clear goals!

Huddersfield are stranded.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

17 minutes ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

Under NP, at the age of 19, Alex Scott has played c 60 championship matches. When he is eventually sold, it will likely be for a substantial fee. Tommy Conway is 20 years old, has played c 20 Championship matches, is our leading scorer this season and likewise will one day leave us for a big wedge of money. Our precarious FFP position has forced NP to give a chance to our Academy starlets. Finally, we’re seeing a production line in operation following more than a decade of slim pickings (with apologies to messrs Reid, Bryan and Kelly). It’s been kicked into life by NP, largely due to financial circumstance but also because of his belief that “if you’re good enough, you’re old enough”.

The approach of NP in this regard is welcome, exciting and frustrating in equal measure but will serve the club very well over time. It’s of great credit to him. He not only is helping us to get out of the hole dug for us by Mark Ashton et al but he’s set up a blueprint for our future - all whilst clinging onto our place in the Championship. It’s a big ask but he’s getting on with it and I can think of nobody else I’d trust to do so. Those who want him out are, in my view, of the “jam today” persuasion; personally, I’m in the “jam forever” camp. To get there ain’t gonna be easy; we’re going to need to be patient and have some luck along the way. It’s probably not the only way but, imo, it’s the best one.

Changing manager (together, inevitability, with his entire, loyal back room team) would be hugely expensive, disruptive, likely lead to relegation this season and will set back our progress by 2-5 years. 

Best stick to the devil we know imo. 

Surely the fact that so much money has been spent on the Academy, the HPC coupled with the fact that SL has made it very clear that his ambition is to create home grown talent and income steam is working?

How fabulous that we see so many coming through the ranks. Even better that they are likely to create ( or have created)big value.

This has little to do with any Manager past or present - it has everything to do with BCFC long term strategy.

I don't mean to stick your comment up you but I suspect you being Rudolf... you might appreciate it.

[Top Robin]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

If us “Nige lovers” didn’t have to spend so much time going back over the same old shit about the context of the mess, the “Nige out” crew might actually get to read our true views.

Us Nige lovers, don’t think he’s the messiah, nor he hasn’t pulled our pants down, but we have an appreciation of the size of the task at hand, and importantly recognise the impact that has.

To suggest we should be in a better place than when he took over, is basically an impressive display of ignorance on their part.

I can't believe you have posted that..... unbelievable! 

[Sir Geoff]

24 minutes ago, daored said:

For me his remit is simple keep us up whether that’s by points or GD I really don’t care. Then let him work in our revised financial position and THEN judge him 

First part is vital. Go down and we are immediately £7/8 million worse off (the difference in solidarity payments between Championship and League one).

[GrahamC]

47 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Not a single player aged 27-30. Sigh.

Said this before.

Fact is players with Championship experience in this sweet spot of their career are largely out of our price range.

We did manage to bring in James a month or so before his 30th birthday & Naismith just after his, but they’re very much exceptions.

Kalas & Bentley are both 29, but for differing reasons neither are currently featuring.

This is why we have signed the likes of Atkinson & Sykes, hoping by the time they are 27 they will have bags of experience at Championship level but that’s a slow old process.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Top Robin said:

I can't believe you have posted that..... unbelievable! 

Sorry, but that’s how I feel.  If posters can be strong in their proclamations about those who are comfortable with Nige’s performances then I feel I can be strong in my comments back.

The position he took over in (end of Feb 2021) was at a point where the CEO had pissed off the players re contract situations (to then piss off himself), and the losses re the mismanagement of fees / wages (vs quality) and Covid weren’t in the public domain, we’d only seen a small portion of the covid impact in the accounts (for 19/20 season) as he took over.

How do you square £68m of losses borne from an irresponsible management regime, and expect to improve the squad, and therefore turn around from the inevitable downturn that had to happen, regardless of who was in charge.  Had Holden remained, I don’t believe we would’ve gone down either, we might’ve finished higher, but that summer was gonna be a cluster#### as the squad was gonna be decimated with little scope to improve.  That continued into the summer just gone too.

So, there you have my reasons why I said it!

Edited November 5, 2022 by Davefevs

[firstdivision]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Sorry, but that’s how I feel.  If posters can be strong in their proclamations about those who are comfortable with Nige’s performances then I feel I can be strong in my comments back.

The position he took over in (end of Feb 2021) was at a point where the CEO had pissed off the players re contract situations (to piss off himself), and the losses re the mismanagement of fees / wages (vs quality) and Covid weren’t in the public domain, we’d only seen a small portion of the covid impact in the accounts (for 19/20 season) as he took over.

How do you square £68m of losses borne from an irresponsible management regime, and expect to improve the squad, and therefore turn around from the inevitable downturn that had to happen, regardless of who was in charge.  Had Holden remained, I don’t believe we would’ve gone down either, we might’ve finished higher, but that summer was gonna be a cluster#### as the squad was gonna be decimated with little scope to improve.  That continued into the summer just gone too.

So, there you have my reasons why I said it!

Why would the squad have been decimated at the end of DH’s first season? Most of the players were under contract.

Also, NP didn’t inherit a bad squad, Dave. He inherited an injury-hit squad - that was the problem in the 2020-21 season. He’s had a lot of decent to solid Championship players, who are now mostly fit, and benefited from some good youngsters. He’s also been able to sign the likes of James, Naismith and Atkinson. I accept he’s a bit short of numbers, which plays into your point about us being quite competitive if everyone is fit. 
Why did there have to be an inevitable downturn? I simply don’t accept that. The injury season killed us and seemed to help NP lower everyone’s expectations. 
Surely plenty of other clubs have had to tighten belts. If anything, the downturn would more likely come after all the expensive signings are out of contract next summer and we shed lots of players and have to rebuild with little transfer-fee money. 
 

 

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Sorry, but that’s how I feel.  If posters can be strong in their proclamations about those who are comfortable with Nige’s performances then I feel I can be strong in my comments back.

The position he took over in (end of Feb 2021) was at a point where the CEO had pissed off the players re contract situations (to piss off himself), and the losses re the mismanagement of fees / wages (vs quality) and Covid weren’t in the public domain, we’d only seen a small portion of the covid impact in the accounts (for 19/20 season) as he took over.

How do you square £68m of losses borne from an irresponsible management regime, and expect to improve the squad, and therefore turn around from the inevitable downturn that had to happen, regardless of who was in charge.  Had Holden remained, I don’t believe we would’ve gone down either, we might’ve finished higher, but that summer was gonna be a cluster#### as the squad was gonna be decimated with little scope to improve.  That continued into the summer just gone too.

So, there you have my reasons why I said it!

Dave- I honestly think that you overthink.

I'm just a BCFC fan and see an average team performing in a less than an average way- consistently.

After over 80 games in charge, it is not unreasonable for us fans not part of the "stats intelligentsia" to question the fact that Nige is not improving his squad. That we are very close to the relegation zone, that we have averaged 1 point a game since Nige took over and our current season is looking less good than our last season, that we have won 2 games in the last 12. That despite three windows Nige has not been able to recruit a player that provides the spark that the team needs - even as a loan. The players that create the occasional spark were already here- Weinmann, Semenyo, Conway, formerly Bentley now O'Leary, and Scott.

BCFC are not alone in being financially challenged and are actually in a much better position in that respect than many teams ahead of us. I'm bored of this " NP has been dealt such a bad hand... blame LJ/MA/Parachute payments/ Refs have it in for us, blah blah blah"

I have supported BCFC for a very long time and have never ever seen a Manager get given such huge latitude from such a vociferous minority. 

Nige needs to get the best out of an average side, produce an average position in the table or SL needs to change his Manager.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Said this before.

Fact is players with Championship experience in this sweet spot of their career are largely out of our price range.

We did manage to bring in James a month or so before his 30th birthday & Naismith just after his, but they’re very much exceptions.

Kalas & Bentley are both 29, but for differing reasons neither are currently featuring.

This is why we have signed the likes of Atkinson & Sykes, hoping by the time they are 27 they will have bags of experience at Championship level but that’s a slow old process.

Yeh I said it at the beginning of the season, hell it was even an issue last season. O'Leary will be 27 next season as well. 

It's a symptom of our predicament rather than a cause, but it's damning nonetheless.

[petehinton]

28 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Why would the squad have been decimated at the end of DH’s first season? Most of the players were under contract.

Also, NP didn’t inherit a bad squad, Dave. He inherited an injury-hit squad - that was the problem in the 2020-21 season. He’s had a lot of decent to solid Championship players, who are now mostly fit, and benefited from some good youngsters. He’s also been able to sign the likes of James, Naismith and Atkinson. I accept he’s a bit short of numbers, which plays into your point about us being quite competitive if everyone is fit. 
Why did there have to be an inevitable downturn? I simply don’t accept that. The injury season killed us and seemed to help NP lower everyone’s expectations. 
Surely plenty of other clubs have had to tighten belts. If anything, the downturn would more likely come after all the expensive signings are out of contract next summer and we shed lots of players and have to rebuild with little transfer-fee money. 
 

 

If anything, we’ll be in an even better place next year.  Kalas, Bentley, JD will all be top 5 earners; the former never fit, and the latter not rated. We’ll inevitably get huge money for Scott and/or Semenyo.  Combine those things with the ability we’ve had to get some of the better quality free transfers and it’s a very very good mix. 

[italian dave]

3 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Not been keeping up with the thread, but was the Pen shout a Pen.?

Ours? I didn’t think so. It was pretty close to where we were sat and didn’t really look like it. There weren’t too many shouts from either the players or the fans. 

[petehinton]

25 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Dave- I honestly think that you overthink.

I'm just a BCFC fan and see an average team performing in a less than an average way- consistently.

After over 80 games in charge, it is not unreasonable for us fans not part of the "stats intelligentsia" to question the fact that Nige is not improving his squad. That we are very close to the relegation zone, that we have averaged 1 point a game since Nige took over and our current season is looking less good than our last season, that we have won 2 games in the last 12. That despite three windows Nige has not been able to recruit a player that provides the spark that the team needs - even as a loan. The players that create the occasional spark were already here- Weinmann, Semenyo, Conway, formerly Bentley now O'Leary, and Scott.

BCFC are not alone in being financially challenged and are actually in a much better position in that respect than many teams ahead of us. I'm bored of this " NP has been dealt such a bad hand... blame LJ/MA/Parachute payments/ Refs have it in for us, blah blah blah"

I have supported BCFC for a very long time and have never ever seen a Manager get given such huge latitude from such a vociferous minority. 

Nige needs to get the best out of an average side, produce an average position in the table or SL needs to change his Manager.

Do you think many other managers would shrug and get on with the job at hand whilst having to play Tanner and Pring at CB?

People look at results and stat padding too much.  We were by far the better side in our last two days, and could very easily, and probably should be, looking at today as a draw after two comfortable wins. That’s the overarching difference here

[pillred]

4 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

But when he gets back he’s got five months to earn a move to where he wants to be. He won’t be doing that based on recent form and I think that will magically reappear post World Cup……..

You old cynic :laugh:.

[italian dave]

6 hours ago, Engvall’s Splinter said:

No - I’ve just watched the replay (posted on here) to confirm my original thoughts. 

Just home, hence delay in replying!

You still had the advantage of me! Fair enough; we all see it differently. What I saw today was basically ZV being asked at times to provide defensive cover for pretty much 25% of the pitch! And not against a Sheff U side at home, with long balls being pumped to two forwards, but against a pretty fast and mobile Boro side who were getting midfielders forward quickly.

Im not blaming Semenyo BTW. He’s not a RWB. Neither is Weimann, but he does at least have the experience and the nous. 

At the end of the day I came back to my first thought when I saw the team line up. I’d have no problem with dropping Sykes and Dasilva based on recent performances, but on the basis that we have replacements for their positions. Doing so and then putting Weimann and Semenyo in those positions just seemed like an odd thing to do, especially away from home. 

[pillred]

4 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

I agree but once ffp is safe for teams I think wages will go back up. Not saying same level as before but there will always be teams gambling for promotion. The biggest killer is every championship team can convince themselves they are close. 
 

We will see who we can resign. I’d really only mind losing Wells I think at this point other than the boys that may get sold. Edit: bad wording I would like to resign Wells if possible. Most other ooc I think we can replace easily enough. 
 

Dasilva is solid but can get picked on defensively at times and he isn’t aggressive enough for me going forward. Lack of speed and strength hurts him. 

Bentley was a good servant but got Bajic in for a reason. Think Max needs a new deal though? I’d re up max and let bentley walk. 
 

Kalas has been fine but think maybe a good one to let walk so we can get in a top cb target. 
 

Massengo was always going to leave. Martin can go. Klose same as Martin. Both just past being good squad players imo. Chuck King into that as well. Probably missing a couple but you are right. With what? Up to 10 leaving I think only 3-4 a big loss. But they will truly leave big holes to fill. 

Kalas WAS fine end of story, also known as Mr glass can leave on the next bus as far as I'm concerned, harsh?   

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Dave- I honestly think that you overthink.

I'm just a BCFC fan and see an average team performing in a less than an average way- consistently.

I see an average team performing averagely but inconsistently when it’s pretty much all available.  When it’s not available, because it has no depth I see it performing less adequately for the needs of the league.

After over 80 games in charge, it is not unreasonable for us fans not part of the "stats intelligentsia" to question the fact that Nige is not improving his squad.

who’s mentioned stats?  Not me.

Of course it’s not unreasonable to question.

That we are very close to the relegation zone, that we have averaged 1 point a game since Nige took over and our current season is looking less good than our last season, that we have won 2 games in the last 12. That despite three windows Nige has not been able to recruit a player that provides the spark that the team needs - even as a loan.

ask yourself why.

I hear we will see last season’s accounts very soon, hopefully this week.

The players that create the occasional spark were already here- Weinmann, Semenyo, Conway, formerly Bentley now O'Leary, and Scott.

Naismith adds spark.

Weimann has added more spark under Nige than under his predecessors.

Who gave Conway, Scott, Benarous, etc their chance ahead of time?

Semenyo, Bentley, O’Leary are players you can create arguments either way.

BCFC are not alone in being financially challenged and are actually in a much better position in that respect than many teams ahead of us.

indeed they are others, but there is a difference being Cashflow hindered (Coventry) than FFP hindered (us and Stoke)

I'm bored of this " NP has been dealt such a bad hand... blame LJ/MA/Parachute payments/ Refs have it in for us, blah blah blah"

bored you might me.  I’m bored of win percentage quips without context.

we used 8 players from our Academy today.  That is a “cheap model”, borne out of necessity.  We can’t afford to have more senior pros signed from other clubs on higher wages and for fees to fill the gaps, just in case.  If you think Nige should be replaced then who comes in to replace him with that outlook?  I’m not asking you to name someone.  But genuinely what type of manager / coach do you think sees Bristol City (in Nov 22) as an attractive proposition?  Forgetting Compensation (for a new manager) and payoffs (for Nige and his coaches), do you think some like Schumacher at Plymouth here come?  Would Matty Taylor come here from Exeter (now at stable Rotherham)?  Could we have made a play for Corberan when Olympiacos sacked him?

We get someone like Sean Flynn imho

I have supported BCFC for a very long time and have never ever seen a Manager get given such huge latitude from such a vociferous minority.

the football world has changed, the transparency of the business of football (and the lack of it in some cases) and the disparity between the haves and have nots through the leagues has meant is fans now can look beyond just results to understand some of the why, what, where, how, who in greater granularity than we could before.  I go back to Dicks / Div One.

Nige needs to get the best out of an average side, produce an average position in the table or SL needs to change his Manager.

As long as the “objective” / expectation is fair, then I have no argument.  But if you think a top 6 push is a reasonable expectation, like some are suggesting, then the argument is flawed.

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Ours? I didn’t think so. It was pretty close to where we were sat and didn’t really look like it. There weren’t too many shouts from either the players or the fans. 

Definitely contact on Wells…enough to make him go down / stumble / not get a shot off…YEP.  But contact does not mean a foul nor a penalty.  Putting a player off his shot doesn’t mean a penalty either.  I reckon VAR would’ve been an interesting dialogue between ref and Stockley Park though!

[Dan Robin]

I was reading the match report on the OS and....

Semenyo blazed his shit over the bar under pressure. 

[REDOXO]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We are playing players that would not have had a cat in hells chance of playing under other regimes. The reason being we have issues with remaining within the rules because the board of directors gave huge Gobs of money to a bloke who had no track record to spend it. 
 

The players we looked at including those That now play in the premier league that were deemed not good enough is soul destroying. 
 

I feel it on match day more than most some might say, but when it’s done it’s pretty obvious we have spent no money in the closed season and are trying to create something Dicks like out of the only place we can spend money, the academy. 
 

 

[OliOTIB]

Today, out of the 11 starters, 7 were academy prospects who the majority of have been fast tracked into the first team mainly because of out financial status. To think we are getting this level out of a group of -24 year olds with the exception of 3 is magnificent. 

[italian dave]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Definitely contact on Wells…enough to make him go down / stumble / not get a shot off…YEP.  But contact does not mean a foul nor a penalty.  Putting a player off his shot doesn’t mean a penalty either.  I reckon VAR would’ve been an interesting dialogue between ref and Stockley Park though!

Yes, agree: there was contact, but that happens all the time all over the pitch. All I’d say is that ‘in the moment’ it just didn’t look like the sort of contact that’s going to get a penalty. (And I think that’s one of the problems with VAR; it looks at it from a different perspective and in a different context).

What I would say though is the the ref gave a couple of free kicks from fairly innocuous looking and similar types of contact elsewhere on the pitch. It was a contrast with earlier in the season when, in the interest of allowing ‘greater physicality, refs seemed content to allow players to clatter through the back of someone who’s about to head/control the ball. But it just wasn’t going to get a penalty in the box. 

[pillred]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You both make some very good points, but I'm of the opinion with all the excuses made as for our lack of success that I or you might as well be in charge of tactics and team selection, could we do any worse? not sure we would, and with your excellent tactical analysis Dave I certainly don;t think you would,  look I'm well aware how fanciful this all sounds but we can all see I think you would agree that in theory we have a team with a lot of potential, the fact we played Sheffield Utd of the park for most of the game would back that up NP was definitely not at fault for the fact we did not win that game but how long can we keep making excuses for some of the more bizarre team selections and substitutions?     

Spoiler

 

 

[Rob k]

8 minutes ago, pillred said:

You both make some very good points, but I'm of the opinion with all the excuses made as for our lack of success that I or you might as well be in charge of tactics and team selection, could we do any worse? not sure we would, and with your excellent tactical analysis Dave I certainly don;t think you would,  look I'm well aware how fanciful this all sounds but we can all see I think you would agree that in theory we have a team with a lot of potential, the fact we played Sheffield Utd of the park for most of the game would back that up NP was definitely not at fault for the fact we did not win that game but how long can we keep making excuses for some of the more bizarre team selections and substitutions?     

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I think the issue is with the NP out lot is that they are only seeing a team on the pitch which is inconsistent and give no thought to the issues that have been going on behind the scenes which NP has alluded to only this week which he’s had to sort. This doesn’t even take in to account our financial position which obviously doesn’t help either. Now none of us know how serious or what those problems were, but it’s clearly taken a long time to to fix. 

[Ska Junkie]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

He was great, but I think you do Conway and Pring a bit of a disservice today.

Maybe by the 'an absolute mile' Dave.

I'm a pro Pring man and don't get what has kept him out of the side.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, pillred said:

You both make some very good points, but I'm of the opinion with all the excuses made as for our lack of success that I or you might as well be in charge of tactics and team selection, could we do any worse? not sure we would, and with your excellent tactical analysis Dave I certainly don;t think you would,  look I'm well aware how fanciful this all sounds but we can all see I think you would agree that in theory we have a team with a lot of potential, the fact we played Sheffield Utd of the park for most of the game would back that up NP was definitely not at fault for the fact we did not win that game but how long can we keep making excuses for some of the more bizarre team selections and substitutions?     

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I think the bit in bold sums it up, that we are a bit of a mixed bag, players performances are mixed, some of Nige’s decisions are mixed.  Some of those decisions are mixed because we don’t know what performance we are gonna get from the players.  From Weimann (mr consistency last season) to Vyner (been really good of late, very poor today).

It’s very Bristol City, that’s the only consistency!