Busting some myths….

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, phantom said:

It would be interesting reading if someone could provide these details, and not just money spent by the club by what actually is on the playing budget

 I’ve not seen any clubs issue accounts which break down the overall wage bill for players v non-players.  Norwich and Plymouth are very transparent and even they don’t do it.

I once asked Kieran Maguire (price of football pod) how he worked it out in his various articles.  He basically said he had a formula based on number of players vs employees and some magic and it usually fell somewhere around the 65-75% of salary costs attributed to playing squad.

Here are the wages from the accounts of every club who was in the championship in 2021, a wage bill created by Holden, although mostly inherited from Johnson, but Holden despite only signing one player for a fee, still increased the wage budget.  That is not me trying to be mischievous, just a fact, that the £30.252m at the end of 2021 was only added to by Pearson in acquiring Danny Simpson on what was alleged to be a tiny salary.

So in 2021 - Holden’s season, we had the 9th biggest wage budget…assumes Derby wasn’t higher, it may e been???

The previous season - Johnson’s season it £27.357m so would’ve been around top 10 too.

We will have to wait for 2022 - Pearson’s season.

 

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

You do realise there is far too much common sense and logic in this post. 

What did you think of @Oléresponse and others?

[NcnsBcfc]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 I’ve not seen any clubs issue accounts which break down the overall wage bill for players v non-players.  Norwich and Plymouth are very transparent and even they don’t do it.

I once asked Kieran Maguire (price of football pod) how he worked it out in his various articles.  He basically said he had a formula based on number of players vs employees and some magic and it usually fell somewhere around the 65-75% of salary costs attributed to playing squad.

Here are the wages from the accounts of every club who was in the championship in 2021, a wage bill created by Holden, although mostly inherited from Johnson, but Holden despite only signing one player for a fee, still increased the wage budget.  That is not me trying to be mischievous, just a fact, that the £30.252m at the end of 2021 was only added to by Pearson in acquiring Danny Simpson on what was alleged to be a tiny salary.

So in 2021 - Holden’s season, we had the 9th biggest wage budget…assumes Derby wasn’t higher, it may e been???

The previous season - Johnson’s season it £27.357m so would’ve been around top 10 too.

We will have to wait for 2022 - Pearson’s season.

 

Is it not the case that we as a club have to pay out loyalty bonuses, when players leave at the end of their contracts? Or that a thing of old?

I also remember that sometimes say a 4 year contract had incremental rises over the course of the contract on a yearly basis. So the final year of the contract would often be it's most expensive to the club.

Both of these might explain why the overall wages amount went up, and the number of players contracted didn't.

Just a thought anyhow.....

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, IAmNick said:

What Gould said was:

"Now we are bringing the salary levels down, we don't have lots of cash we can throw at things. If you looked at what we did last summer, we were targeting the very best players who were out of contract that year.

We think that is quite a sweet spot for us because we would always be looking to be in the top 10 in terms of salaries that we can pay in the Championship. Therefore for the best players coming out of contract in the Championship or League One we are very, very attractive."

Bolded bit mine - that's very different from saying we have a top 10 wage budget. He's saying we're looking to be able to be in the top 10 of salaries we can pay. That's not the same thing. To me that reads as, for the right players we can offer them a competitive salary with other clubs they might be interested in - but not that we'll have a squad on 15, 20, 30k+ like other teams... and us more recently.

I also think there has been a lot of variance in our salary structure, as Pearson has talked about too. Players on 20k+ not playing, others on 2k playing every game. That's not good or healthy for the environment in the club imo. I think if you looked at our median or mean wage of our starting 11 there's no way it'd be top 10 in the division.

There are teams with worse financial positions doing better. Until recently there were some with much better positions doing worse. That's football as you well know!

I think Pearson should be doing slightly better with what he has available currently. I don't think it's a good or fair comparison with LJ's term though.

I'm not basing my top 10 wage budget comment on what Gould said. I'm basing it on evidence, as below. Our wage budget was £33m in 2020/21, putting us into the top 10, and we'll be there again this financial year (season 2021/2022) as most other clubs in the division also cut their cloth accordingly. 

As for using "median/mean wage of starting 11". Starting to sound like a bit of a desperate argument. It's up to Pearson how he utilises his squad. Yes, hes been unlucky with the likes of Kalas and Baker but equally it's been his choice to freeze out the likes of Massengo and Bentley. 

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, Steve Watts said:

In fairness he could have switched the system away from 3 at the back to a more conventional 4-4-2/4-3-3/4-5-1 with Tanner, Vyner, Pring and Dasilva at the back.  King could have been played as an anchor man to protect the defence a little.  Ideal? Nope, far from it. However, it will at least have had round pegs in round holes.  There were options.

I think that's my biggest criticism of Pearson. He's got a system that he thinks works with our best XI - which is fair enough - but he is too reluctant to switch things when we just don't have the right players available to fit it.

Obviously there's swings and roundabouts here. There is a lot to be said for having a consistent style of play and consistency in formation. But I also think Pearson could be better at making tweaks when players central to making that formation work simply aren't available. 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Henry said:

@Harry are you still working for the club?

I’ve never worked for the club. 

If you’re referring to the passion I have for scouting and am I still in touch with the club in this regard, yes.  Nothing has changed in that regard. But it’s not ‘work’. I don’t get paid for it. 

But I don’t work for the club and it doesn’t mean I’m in a position where I am not allowed to still be critical as a fan. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Harry

[M.D]

26 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think that's my biggest criticism of Pearson. He's got a system that he thinks works with our best XI - which is fair enough - but he is too reluctant to switch things when we just don't have the right players available to fit it.

Obviously there's swings and roundabouts here. There is a lot to be said for having a consistent style of play and consistency in formation. But I also think Pearson could be better at making tweaks when players central to making that formation work simply aren't available. 

This is my issue too, I'm not a fan of 3 at the back and wings backs but I can see his logic when he states that this is the ideal formation for the players we have at hand.

I accept this view as we don't have a dominant centre half or defensive midfielder to play with a back four at this level.

What I don't get is shoehorning players into the system and his stubborn attitude to changing the system and then just throwing a few attack minded players at the match when all is lost really.

I have changed my mind after a knee jerk reaction from me after Boxing Day and think he should stay but I'm concerned he won't change this.

[spudski]

Without sounding like a nause...and appreciating all the detail...the simple question is...should NP getting more out of the squad at his disposal at this very moment?

Do we really need to compare the past with the present? Circumstances and times etc change.

What happened in the past really has no significant impact on what NP has at his disposal right now and in this moment. 

Should he be getting more out of these players now...regardless. IMO yes.

 

[BigTone]

Theres a few myths on here that need bursting.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Is it not the case that we as a club have to pay out loyalty bonuses, when players leave at the end of their contracts? Or that a thing of old?

it still happens, but players contracts are expiring every year. 

I also remember that sometimes say a 4 year contract had incremental rises over the course of the contract on a yearly basis. So the final year of the contract would often be it's most expensive to the club.

That’s also true.

Both of these might explain why the overall wages amount went up, and the number of players contracted didn't.

I think it really is as simple as we paid our players more And more over time, rather than a back-end of contract distortion.

Just a thought anyhow.....

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I'm not basing my top 10 wage budget comment on what Gould said. I'm basing it on evidence, as below. Our wage budget was £33m in 2020/21, putting us into the top 10, and we'll be there again this financial year (season 2021/2022) as most other clubs in the division also cut their cloth accordingly. 

As for using "median/mean wage of starting 11". Starting to sound like a bit of a desperate argument. It's up to Pearson how he utilises his squad. Yes, hes been unlucky with the likes of Kalas and Baker but equally it's been his choice to freeze out the likes of Massengo and Bentley. 

Just to make posters clear why Kid’s (Swiss Ramble’s) numbers differ from mine (I’m quoting £23.81m in 2022), is because I wanted to give City’s wage bill at football club level to get a better feel for “playing budget”.  In my table I’ve tried to do the same with other clubs where they use a holding company to report…in their case I’ve also taken the football club accounts.

Why would I take this approach?

Because I can’t square the following question to give a good (fairer?) level of comparison:

why did the average Championship club have 211 staff, yet Bristol City (Holdings) need 700?

So I went with football club wages, where BCFC have 201 staff.  Average staff numbers in the Champ are 211.  So I think it’s more accurate to look at City’s wages at that level.

In 2021 it still makes us top 10.

The test will be (as I’ve stated more than once!) when we see other clubs 2022 accounts.  We will see whether Nige’s 20% wage bill cut keeps us in the top 10.  I think it will slip us 2/3 places.  2023 accounts will likely see us move into the bottom half.  And that’s where I drive some of my expectation levels from.

I still can’t answer my question in italics above.  We are a cost behemoth imho.  Ashton Gate has to have staff to cover Rugby and Football as well as concerts, but I’d expect it to be more efficient than twice as many staff than PL Norwich (354).  It looks like Bristol Sport Ltd staff are 0, so must be totally paid for by Rugby, Football and Basketball.

Hope that makes sense.

[Davefevs]

40 minutes ago, spudski said:

Should he be getting more out of these players now...regardless. IMO yes.

Yes.  I think we are better than 18th…but I have us 13th-18th, I don’t want us to be right at the bottom (or worse) than my range.

[spudski]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes.  I think we are better than 18th…but I have us 13th-18th, I don’t want us to be right at the bottom (or worse) than my range.

I see us as definitely mid table. As we know though, 3 points at the end of the season with GD can have a significant difference on position.

[Offside]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Without sounding like a nause...and appreciating all the detail...the simple question is...should NP getting more out of the squad at his disposal at this very moment?

Do we really need to compare the past with the present? Circumstances and times etc change.

What happened in the past really has no significant impact on what NP has at his disposal right now and in this moment. 

Should he be getting more out of these players now...regardless. IMO yes.

 

I agree, he should definitely be getting more out of these players. I am under  no illusion that we should be near the top six, but we should be in a better position than we are currently. Some of the performances have been truly dire and we don’t seem to learn from them. We lose games so easily. 

[Bar BS3]

8 minutes ago, Offside said:

I agree, he should definitely be getting more out of these players. I am under  no illusion that we should be near the top six, but we should be in a better position than we are currently. Some of the performances have been truly dire and we don’t seem to learn from them. We lose games so easily. 

Absolutely agree that he should be getting better from the squad we have got. 

Also agree on your other point, that we are just too easy to beat. 

Surely, when going through a bad spell (if 22 months, bar a few weeks, classes as a "spell") then at least make us hard to beat, even if we can't win many. 

We just look clueless most of the time. 

Unorganised at the back. Lost & unimaginative in midfield and, as a result, don't look much threat in attack. 

We seem to rely on certain players producing something good in that moment, rather than it coming as a result of any plan, training or tactic. 

Yes, we've been a little unlucky in some games - but the flip side of that is that we've also won games when we've had luck on our side.

It really should be so much better after the amount of time that he's had here and there never seems to be any consistent progress in any area of our game. 

 

[firstdivision]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

What did you think of @Oléresponse and others?

Exhausting. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

11 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Exhausting. 

Yeah, having an open mind is too  much like hard work, isn't it? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Just to make posters clear why Kid’s (Swiss Ramble’s) numbers differ from mine (I’m quoting £23.81m in 2022), is because I wanted to give City’s wage bill at football club level to get a better feel for “playing budget”.  In my table I’ve tried to do the same with other clubs where they use a holding company to report…in their case I’ve also taken the football club accounts.

Why would I take this approach?

Because I can’t square the following question to give a good (fairer?) level of comparison:

why did the average Championship club have 211 staff, yet Bristol City (Holdings) need 700?

So I went with football club wages, where BCFC have 201 staff.  Average staff numbers in the Champ are 211.  So I think it’s more accurate to look at City’s wages at that level.

In 2021 it still makes us top 10.

The test will be (as I’ve stated more than once!) when we see other clubs 2022 accounts.  We will see whether Nige’s 20% wage bill cut keeps us in the top 10.  I think it will slip us 2/3 places.  2023 accounts will likely see us move into the bottom half.  And that’s where I drive some of my expectation levels from.

I still can’t answer my question in italics above.  We are a cost behemoth imho.  Ashton Gate has to have staff to cover Rugby and Football as well as concerts, but I’d expect it to be more efficient than twice as many staff than PL Norwich (354).  It looks like Bristol Sport Ltd staff are 0, so must be totally paid for by Rugby, Football and Basketball.

Hope that makes sense.

I dunno, £30m in wages using the Holdings, amortisation, depreciation- cost of staging events doesn't come that cheap.. obviously Interest will contribute to the losses but would they be included in the Running costs?

Academy, Community and Women's Football will all be included even if not itemised separately.

For context, Derby in 2018 had a £29m income- talking the consolidator- but total running costs of £75m maybe. That is wages, amortisation, academy- the lot. That cost of staging events was reduced during the 2020-21 season especially but is back towards  normal levels now. Unsure it is that far outside.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Harry]

1 hour ago, BigTone said:

Theres a few myths on here that need bursting.

What’s so funny Big Man. I thought you had me on ignore anyway??? 

[BigTone]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

What’s so funny Big Man. I thought you had me on ignore anyway??? 

Who was referring to you ? You flatter yourself.

Edited December 28, 2022 by BigTone

[David Brent]

1 hour ago, firstdivision said:

Exhausting. 

There were some big words in there tbf 

[firstdivision]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Yeah, having an open mind is too  much like hard work, isn't it? 

No. Not really. I find it easy to be open minded. It was just that I got up at 5am for work this morning and there was a lot to read. 

[Harry]

33 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Who was referring to you ? You flatter yourself.

Well, ummm, the fact you put a ‘laugh’ emoji on 2 posts - one written by me and one directly referring to me. Kinda gives away that your are indeed referring to me.  
Given you have me on ignore, that’s quite something. 
So, what’s so funny Big Man? 

[BigTone]

7 minutes ago, Harry said:

Well, ummm, the fact you put a ‘laugh’ emoji on 2 posts - one written by me and one directly referring to me. Kinda gives away that your are indeed referring to me.  
Given you have me on ignore, that’s quite something. 
So, what’s so funny Big Man? 

You really have a high opinion of yourself and your standing sonny. Just run along. You seem very obsessed.

[Harry]

12 minutes ago, BigTone said:

You really have a high opinion of yourself and your standing sonny. Just run along. You seem very obsessed.

Well, you’re the one who told me you had me on ignore, and then I discover that you are putting laugh emojis on my posts so clearly don’t have me on ignore. 
So, a laugh emoji on a post can be interpreted multiple ways. Pray tell, what was funny? 
Or are you just gonna ignore it and hope it goes away, like you did a couple of months ago when you got caught being racist? 

[petehinton]

I think whoever we have, people will pine for something different. It’s the nature of football, especially at this level. The re-writing of LJ’s tenure is especially weird atm. The constant losing streaks and winning streaks, the need for 3 players at every position, so many people couldn’t wait for it to be over, it’s fickleness at its finest. Even the posts today replying to the tweet highlights from us beating Millwall in 2019 as ‘the good old days’, well gues what we were pathetic in that game, so it wasn’t the good times at all

I wouldn’t want it back by any stretch. Our stock has never been higher at the time he went, and the powers that be royally royally shat the bed. 
 

There’s a reason LJ is in a worse place than he was when here, in the nicest possible way. And the way it’s going, he’s probably not far off his second sacking in the 2.5 years since he was sacked here. 
 

Said before It’s the Holden ‘era’ and everything that encompassed within the club that has led us to this current shitstate imo. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by petehinton

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I dunno, £30m in wages using the Holdings, amortisation, depreciation- cost of staging events doesn't come that cheap.. obviously Interest will contribute to the losses but would they be included in the Running costs?

Academy, Community and Women's Football will all be included even if not itemised separately.

For context, Derby in 2018 had a £29m income- talking the consolidator- but total running costs of £75m maybe. That is wages, amortisation, academy- the lot. That cost of staging events was reduced during the 2020-21 season especially but is back towards  normal levels now. Unsure it is that far outside.

Mr P, I’m not disputing the wage cost, nor what’s included or not…I’m just trying to find a method of fair comparison of the football side of our club across the Championship.

Most championship clubs don’t have a group of staff doing stuff for a Rugby club or arranging concerts, so ideally I’d strip these costs and staff numbers out of my comparison.  That’s all I’m trying to do, so that I can put a rough approximation of our player wage bill, and then see where we are placed across this division.

I’m not interested in amortisation and other costs for this piece. Ta though.

[The Constant Rabbit]

There's a couple of people in this, and other threads that really sound like NP's new broom might have swept them out the door, which has then hit them in the arse on it's backswing. 

 

It's not just NP's philosophy though is it?

He's not a 3rd world country dictator - all his actions will have been viewed through the prism of feedback and discussion  with other coaches, players, agents (Re: any loans / sales), CEO and even SL himself.

After Bakinson left - there were no-more players agitating against NP.

Atkinson, DaSilva, Wells, Klose HNM, Bentley and others who want out, or were / are on the naughty step seem to accept they are, where they are.

 

That says to me that Pearson has had a full and frank discussion with his coaches - sure he makes the call, but I'm sure the likes of Curtis and BT would have 'made it known' if NP was some sort of crazy maverick who was unilaterally banishing players at a whim, or playing King at CB for shits and giggles.

 

They aren't - so it seems to me, that they agree with NP's thinking.

 

The players that have gone on loan, or who are on the naughty step have (besides Bakinson again) have either stayed quiet and got on with it (if leaving or loaned out) , or sought Feedback  as to WHY they are on the naughty step and what they have to do to get off it.

Wells, Vyner, DaSilva etc have knuckled down in the U23's etc, not moaned, did what NP told them to do - and have been welcomed back into the 1st team with open arms. Atkinson seems to have the same mindset as well.

 

HNM, Bentley, Klose and the loanees are quietly waiting to seasons end to move on - without making a fuss, and stepping up when required.

 

None of the above shouts "Pearsons a Dinosaur" or "He's lost the dressing room" - in actually says that all the coaches are of one mind, and the players involved  are happy to accept NP's decisions to:

Fix either perceived playing problems - and be rewarded by being selected for the 1st team again

Be on the bench or U23's if they won't accept a new contract

Take a loan to try to get a new contract elsewhere.

 

This sounds like good management from manager and CEO to me - everyone knows where they stand and why.

 

When NP can fill his 1st team squad with players who WANT to be here and WILL accept they play his way or not at all - and then do so - then the club will move forward - quite dramatically I'd have thought.

 

2p

[firstdivision]

20 hours ago, Harry said:

You are of course correct Rob. You’re right that I have framed my argument in a certain way, but as you’ll see from my opening line, I’ve really done it to try to spark a slightly different debate - ie one which asks “should Pearson be getting much more from this squad”. So I intentionally made it more of a ‘trolling’ type post and you correctly sussed it

I think as a club, they have been pushing the ‘bad finances’ narrative and this is disguising Nigel’s performance (or even protecting him). 
I guess my point was that Nige has a relatively decent squad when comparing to 3 years ago. I genuinely think, aside from Brownhill, every other member of that previous squad was not fawned over by the fanbase, and the majority of the fanbase were happy to see the majority of them gone. 
Todays team still contains 6 of that team. 5 of those 6 arguably being the more respected/liked by the fanbase of that previous squad. Add Semenyo, Scott, Conway, James, Naismith, Atkinson, Klose, Williams, and I genuinely wonder why this manager isn’t getting more out of them. 
I 100% acknowledge that finances are a huge problem for us. But I refuse to believe that this is the sole reason we’re in a relegation fight. And that’s the general narrative (excuse) coming from the club and the manager. The players we have are plenty decent enough to not be involved in a relegation scrap. As a club they need to quit with the “woe is me” narrative. It’s portraying a loser-mentality. 

You really need to stop this, Harry - putting thought-provoking posts on here that go against the ‘woe is us’ orthodoxy. 

[BigTone]

9 hours ago, Harry said:

Well, you’re the one who told me you had me on ignore, and then I discover that you are putting laugh emojis on my posts so clearly don’t have me on ignore. 
So, a laugh emoji on a post can be interpreted multiple ways. Pray tell, what was funny? 
Or are you just gonna ignore it and hope it goes away, like you did a couple of months ago when you got caught being racist? 

You really are just being pathetic now.

[Colombo Robin]

In the same way we've all seen him enjoy belittling journalists in public if he's having a bad day, you can imagine him doing the same behind the scenes with the players. He has a strong squad and should be doing better. My theory is that privately a lot of the players simply dont like him, especially once he starts with the hissy fits. I see it as more of a man management problem than a financial one. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Colombo Robin

[Olé]

7 hours ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

Wells, Vyner, DaSilva etc have knuckled down in the U23's etc, not moaned, did what NP told them to do - and have been welcomed back into the 1st team with open arms. Atkinson seems to have the same mindset as well.

7 hours ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

When NP can fill his 1st team squad with players who WANT to be here and WILL accept they play his way or not at all - and then do so - then the club will move forward - quite dramatically I'd have thought.

LOGIC HAS NOW ENTERED THE GAME.

Nothing like some thoughtful simplicity @The Constant Rabbit at a time of collective hysteria.

We've been a soft touch to players for years. Everyone desperately wanted someone to toughen up our standards. Someone does so and everyone throws their toys out of the pram on behalf of affected players or in presumption of stubbornness or agendas against certain players. As you say, absolutely zero evidence this is what's happening and plenty of evidence that players come back (Wells, DaSilva, Pring) but not literally every other game as that is precisely the chaotic match to match chopping and changing that LJ made an art form of during endless death cycles, which isn't very stable for players or team. 

Yes the past game and a half of football has been frustrating - but NP this season and last has arrested runs of defeats far quicker than his predecessors (our longest losing run in that period is 3), and is doing so with a lot of young players and lower division signings. And people don't want to hear it, but we lost 3 in a row last season, NP moved Weimann to RWB, the usual people had a tantrum, but we ground out a brilliant away win and he was MoM and in space to bag the winner. And as you also point out, those who've been bombed out  i.e. Wells have come back frankly as much better contributors than before.

I understand why some are exasperated, but in my view there is too much of a collective paranoia and meltdown (not helped by NP's explicit "I'm not bothered" interview persona) that he is on some sort of arrogant or spiteful deathwish to get us relegated. Thinking and watching rationally, I don't see it, I see a promising young team making an awful lot of stupid mistakes in games they really ought to take something from, and struggling for consistency. There will be people secretly hoping we lose tonight "to get rid of the manager" - for a team that has lost two games in a row. It's utter insanity but that is mob mentality.

[Major Isewater]

22 hours ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

So doesn't that suggest that in two years, NP has not been able to change the culture, attitude, tactics, training etc etc in anyway whatsoever to improve results by just using his experience, man management skills, tactical brain?  If yes then that's pretty poor management in my book.  Whatever players you inherit, what ever business you can or cannot do, after 2 years I would expect improvements on the pitch surely?  If not by now then when?

I believe the main problem is the inbalance in the squad , we have talented youngsters and quality old pros who are past their best , neither type of player can be expected to be functioning at the top of their game twice a week in the Championship. 
Then add in a difficult run of results and confidence drops off as well. 
There is also too much uncertainty concerning the January window, Semenyo and Scott have lost all form. 
Iam hoping that we can get one or two new faces in and out and then press on without these distractions. 

[The Bard]

1 hour ago, Colombo Robin said:

In the same way we've all seen him enjoy belittling journalists in public if he's having a bad day, you can imagine him doing the same behind the scenes with the players. He has a strong squad and should be doing better. My theory is that privately a lot of the players simply dont like him, especially once he starts with the hissy fits. I see it as more of a man management problem than a financial one. 

And your evidence is???

[The Bard]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Mr P, I’m not disputing the wage cost, nor what’s included or not…I’m just trying to find a method of fair comparison of the football side of our club across the Championship.

Most championship clubs don’t have a group of staff doing stuff for a Rugby club or arranging concerts, so ideally I’d strip these costs and staff numbers out of my comparison.  That’s all I’m trying to do, so that I can put a rough approximation of our player wage bill, and then see where we are placed across this division.

I’m not interested in amortisation and other costs for this piece. Ta though.

They also don't have rugby club staff doing something for them or free use of their facilities. It's 2 way.

They also don't have money from the stadium siphoned off to another company. Neither City nor the Bears get money from concessions...

[Colombo Robin]

22 minutes ago, The Bard said:

And your evidence is???

"My theory is....." Just a hypothesis. We have all seen the way he can act when grumpy and in my opinion his personality will on occasions work against him. 

[David Brent]

12 minutes ago, Colombo Robin said:

"My theory is....." Just a hypothesis. We have all seen the way he can act when grumpy and in my opinion his personality will on occasions work against him. 

In what way do you think it will work against him? I imagine he has the respect of his players and staff. Even from those out of the team probably.

[Rob k]

2 hours ago, Colombo Robin said:

In the same way we've all seen him enjoy belittling journalists in public if he's having a bad day, you can imagine him doing the same behind the scenes with the players. He has a strong squad and should be doing better. My theory is that privately a lot of the players simply dont like him, especially once he starts with the hissy fits. I see it as more of a man management problem than a financial one. 

Strong squad? We have good strikers but the rest of it is poor 

[The Bard]

A decent debate but I think there is a fundamental disagreement around something that is a judgement call.  Some seem to think we have a strong squad atm. I disagree and I think a lot comes from that.

For example, I've always thought that Massengo, Dasilva and Bentley were overrated and I've seen nothing during their time to suggest otherwise.  They look like average mid table championship players to me.  The sort that will have a decent career, but never be a striver or achiever like say Luke Ayling.  I can't put it any better really.  Bentley can produce some amazing performances but then you get a catastrophe like Birmingham away.  

I would love to see an analysis of our current squad based on cost. Total cost.

How much of our current playing budget is taken up by players whose current contract was signed under Pearson?  2 years into a job you would normally expect this to be the majority but I suspect it isn't.  He's made signings for sure and we can debate their merits either way, but until the raft of contacts end in June, he will still be managing a playing budget taken up in the most part with other people's signings.

To put it in algebra

Kalas = (Pring + Scott + Atkinson + Weimann + Naismith + King)

 

[Phileas Fogg]

On 28/12/2022 at 07:54, real_bristol said:

IIRC Cotts inherited a massively restructured club courtesy of SODs reforms. SOD was a victim of his own transition. I don’t want to take any credit from Cotts but he caught us at the right time. 

True. It's quite an interesting situation. I don't think Cotterill could've done the restructuring as effectively but likewise if the roles were reversed, I don't think SO'D could have joined the club when Cotterill did and achieved such an emphatic promotion. 

[bcfcredandwhite]

On 27/12/2022 at 23:17, Harry said:

Well, I say busting myths. Maybe I’m more trying to stir the pot. But here goes anyway….

At the start of the covid break, March 2020, we had Lee Johnson in charge. 37 games had been played. We were 7th. 1 point off the playoffs. Since the turn of the year, we’d won 5, drawn 2 and lost 5. 
 

In those 12 games of the calendar year to date, the following players were regulars :

Bentley, Kalas, Baker, Dasilva, Massengo, Weimann, Wells. 
 

7 players who have all been part of Pearson’s squads in the 22 months he’s been here. 
 

We keep hearing about the massive job Pearson has had to do. We hear that he’s had to get rid off bad eggs, overpaid primadonnas and not have any funds to bring his own players in. 
 

7 of the team that had us in 7th place after 37 games have been at his disposal. Sadly Bakers time was cut short, but he was available for Pearson for a fair while during his tenure. 
 

Players who have left the club under Pearson are :

Szmodics, Elliason, Morrell, J Smith, Bailey Wright, Matty Taylor, Korey Smith, Rory Holden, Adelakun, Diedhiou, Baldwin, Opi Edwards, Gilmartin, Hunt, Lansbury, Hinds, Mariappa, Paterson, Rowe, Walsh, Watkins, Wallocott, Nagy, Nurse, Palmer, O’Dowda, Janneh, Bakinson, Britton, Cundy. 
 

Of all of those gone, 30 listed, not a single one has gone to a higher ranked division and not a single one has been a success anywhere since. 
Of that list, you could probably get an argument for Paterson as being a decent player here, Diedhiou was generally pretty useless but for the odd goal and had cult status, Korey had a good career here but was on the wane, and Eliasson had a “good cross on him” but little else. 
Of all the others, there probably aren’t many fans who could put up a good argument for why they should have stayed at City and in most cases the majority of the fanbase were happy to see them go. 
 

So, let’s disregard all the financial arguments. Johnson had money and Pearson hasn’t. Yes, I get it. 
But the squad that Johnson ended with here in March 2020 contained 7 of the same squad Pearson has had at his disposal and 30 other players which no one really wanted here anyway and were not bothered when they left. 

Pearson has managed to replace those 30 unwanted players with Semenyo (a sought after talent), Scott (a much sought after talent), Conway (a potentially sought after talent, Atkinson (a £1.6m centre back), James & King (2 of his own studs who’ve won a premier league), Naismith (the player of the season at a team which got to the playoffs), Klose (a man with recent prem experience and promotion from this league).

So, the question is, Johnson got that bunch of players, most of which no fans really wanted and who have done nothing of note since leaving City, to 7th in the league, whilst Pearson has had 7 of the regulars from that Johnson team plus his own additions of generational talents and premier league players. So how did Johnson manage to get what could be easily argued as a worse team man for man into 7th place and nearly into the playoffs, whilst Pearson hasn’t managed to string any kind of form together over a 22 month stretch with arguably a better squad? 
 

I really feel that we are over-egging the impact the financial situation is having on Pearson’s job. Yes, the financial situation is very real and he hasn’t had a great deal to play with, but the squad now is arguably better man for man than the one Johnson had. Should Pearson be getting much more out of this squad than a record of 24-19-41, a 28.5% win rate, when Johnson was getting a 46% win rate from a worse bunch of players who needed to all be removed from the club!
 

Personally, I think the bloke is getting away with murder. 

Interesting and thought-provoking post. 

I absolutely agree with the gist of what you are saying - just a couple of minor things;

It was LJ who started playing Semenyo, not Pearson. LJ recalled him from Newport so he could bolster the first team options (I seem to remember him getting sent off vs Derby the first time I watched him at Ashton Gate - I wasn't impressed!)
You listed the players from LJ's team that the fans 'didn't care about'. Whilst this may be true for many of us, speaking for myself, at the time I personally rated Eliasson highly (top assists in the league, despite hardly ever starting). Diedhiou, for all his frustrations, was still our top scorer and we let him leave without replacing him. I also rated Paterson - although lightweight and a bit of a sick-note I thought he could still do a job for us.
I highlighted 'at the time' in my statement, because I'm not sure I would want them back now. As you said in your post; man for man and on paper we have a better squad today. 

I do get that we needed to save some money and those players were costing - particularly Pato, so I accept that the decision to offload them was very possibly financial, rather than for their (lack of) worth on the pitch.

Much of the criticism aimed at LJ's appointment was that he was unproven, SL's 'mate' and we should have gone for a more experienced manager rather than gambled on an unknown. SL relented and employed a well-respected and experienced manager with a pedigree, yet we are still huffing and puffing - at the wrong end of the table (at least under LJ we huffed and puffed in the top half).

I've thought for some time that we should be doing better than we are under Pearson - I've said that on here a couple of times and been shot down by the Pearson 'love-in' brigade. 

 

 

[M.D]

2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

I believe the main problem is the inbalance in the squad , we have talented youngsters and quality old pros who are past their best , neither type of player can be expected to be functioning at the top of their game twice a week in the Championship. 
Then add in a difficult run of results and confidence drops off as well. 
There is also too much uncertainty concerning the January window, Semenyo and Scott have lost all form. 
Iam hoping that we can get one or two new faces in and out and then press on without these distractions. 

You have to wonder if agents have got to the pair of them with ideas of a move to the promised land..

[Phileas Fogg]

1 hour ago, M.D said:

You have to wonder if agents have got to the pair of them with ideas of a move to the promised land..

I think it's just normal - young players are often inconsistent. Semenyo has had an unusual few months and almost definitely was (whether intentional or subconscious) trying to ensure he didn't get injured for the world cup. 

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, firstdivision said:

You really need to stop this, Harry - putting thought-provoking posts on here that go against the ‘woe is us’ orthodoxy. 

Yep, a thought provoking post from a new angle.  Guess what?  It provoked thought and responses with great maturity and thought from the likes of @Oléand @The Constant Rabbit, but because they challenged @Harry’s point of view (and your want of Nige Out, you don’t like it.

There are some great responses on both sides of the argument across OTIB at the mo’, but why are certain OTIB posters trying to shut down opposing views.  Debate / discuss what you like about Harry’s post, that’s the right way to engage.

 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, The Bard said:

A decent debate but I think there is a fundamental disagreement around something that is a judgement call.  Some seem to think we have a strong squad atm. I disagree and I think a lot comes from that.

For example, I've always thought that Massengo, Dasilva and Bentley were overrated and I've seen nothing during their time to suggest otherwise.  They look like average mid table championship players to me.  The sort that will have a decent career, but never be a striver or achiever like say Luke Ayling.  I can't put it any better really.  Bentley can produce some amazing performances but then you get a catastrophe like Birmingham away.  

I would love to see an analysis of our current squad based on cost. Total cost.

How much of our current playing budget is taken up by players whose current contract was signed under Pearson?  2 years into a job you would normally expect this to be the majority but I suspect it isn't.  He's made signings for sure and we can debate their merits either way, but until the raft of contacts end in June, he will still be managing a playing budget taken up in the most part with other people's signings.

To put it in algebra

Kalas = (Pring + Scott + Atkinson + Weimann + Naismith + King)

 

I have that data.

Simple columns:

Yellow shaded headings are really “what has Nige done with them”, e.g. did he sign them, did he offer them a contract, re-contract, etc.

(this is the subset of my data based on current players - I created it because I sensed a lot of non-facts starting to creep in to OTIB)

You’ll see:

• Kalas £8m contract not touched by Pearson
• Bentley £3m ditto
• Dasilva £2m ditto
• Moore £1.5m ditto
• Massengo £2.8m ditto
• J.Williams £1.25m ditto
• Martin free - exercised his own option

That may of course change before the summer!

10 academy league debuts since he arrived, 2 have moved on (Janneh and Britton), hence only 8 shown.

Shout if any Qs, hopefully gives what you want.

 

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

5 hours ago, Colombo Robin said:

In the same way we've all seen him enjoy belittling journalists in public if he's having a bad day, you can imagine him doing the same behind the scenes with the players. He has a strong squad and should be doing better. My theory is that privately a lot of the players simply dont like him, especially once he starts with the hissy fits. I see it as more of a man management problem than a financial one. 

No, no and no.

All available evidence suggests the opposite.

Absolutely incredible how you could even hypothesise such nonsense out of thin air.

His man management of players is his strength. Have you not heard any Leicester players talk about him? Why do you think Matty James came here when he would have better paid offers elsewhere? Or King for that matter. Where is the evidence any of our players aren't putting the effort in for him? How come players he's dropped have come back into the team and performed well? Where the hell do people get this shit from? **** me. 

[David Brent]

2 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Interesting and thought-provoking post. 

I absolutely agree with the gist of what you are saying - just a couple of minor things;

It was LJ who started playing Semenyo, not Pearson. LJ recalled him from Newport so he could bolster the first team options (I seem to remember him getting sent off vs Derby the first time I watched him at Ashton Gate - I wasn't impressed!)
You listed the players from LJ's team that the fans 'didn't care about'. Whilst this may be true for many of us, speaking for myself, at the time I personally rated Eliasson highly (top assists in the league, despite hardly ever starting). Diedhiou, for all his frustrations, was still our top scorer and we let him leave without replacing him. I also rated Paterson - although lightweight and a bit of a sick-note I thought he could still do a job for us.
I highlighted 'at the time' in my statement, because I'm not sure I would want them back now. As you said in your post; man for man and on paper we have a better squad today. 

I do get that we needed to save some money and those players were costing - particularly Pato, so I accept that the decision to offload them was very possibly financial, rather than for their (lack of) worth on the pitch.

Much of the criticism aimed at LJ's appointment was that he was unproven, SL's 'mate' and we should have gone for a more experienced manager rather than gambled on an unknown. SL relented and employed a well-respected and experienced manager with a pedigree, yet we are still huffing and puffing - at the wrong end of the table (at least under LJ we huffed and puffed in the top half).

I've thought for some time that we should be doing better than we are under Pearson - I've said that on here a couple of times and been shot down by the Pearson 'love-in' brigade. 

 

 

All that just to finish with “love-in brigade” when there have been some very strong and articulate pro-Nigel posts made, particularly on this thread. 

[glynriley]

2 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Much of the criticism aimed at LJ's appointment was that he was unproven, SL's 'mate' and we should have gone for a more experienced manager rather than gambled on an unknown. SL relented and employed a well-respected and experienced manager with a pedigree, yet we are still huffing and puffing - at the wrong end of the table (at least under LJ we huffed and puffed in the top half).

I've thought for some time that we should be doing better than we are under Pearson - I've said that on here a couple of times and been shot down by the Pearson 'love-in' brigade. 

 

 

 

Really? Given the resources available to the two of them, is it any surprise.

FFS.

Edited December 29, 2022 by glynriley

[real_bristol]

1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think it's just normal - young players are often inconsistent. Semenyo has had an unusual few months and almost definitely was (whether intentional or subconscious) trying to ensure he didn't get injured for the world cup. 

Yeah, you’d like to think these players have enough experience and maturity around them to not get sucked in by the money. Personally, think Semenyo deserves a start but perhaps needs a couple of starts to find his form. The mere thought of him and Conway “clicking” is very exciting. 

[Harry]

47 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, a thought provoking post from a new angle.  Guess what?  It provoked thought and responses with great maturity and thought from the likes of @Oléand @The Constant Rabbit, but because they challenged @Harry’s point of view (and your want of Nige Out, you don’t like it.

There are some great responses on both sides of the argument across OTIB at the mo’, but why are certain OTIB posters trying to shut down opposing views.  Debate / discuss what you like about Harry’s post, that’s the right way to engage.

 

Agreed. Ole and Constant Rabbit have made very well thought out and considered responses. Which is great. 
I don’t necessarily agree with all that they’ve said, some, but not all (but I completely understand the angles they are coming from). 
End of the day, when we find ourselves in the situation we are in, there are always going to be polarising views. 
My view has of course been a highly critical one, but you’ll also all see that I am not yet firmly in the ‘Pearson Out’ camp. 
Pearson has a number of qualities that the club is definitely the better for, but I am calling into question a number of his decisions, whilst not completely calling for his head at the moment. 
I want him to do better. He needs to do better. If he doesn’t do better, we are going down (in my opinion). So of course I want him to do better. But he’s still got a helluva lot to prove to me. 

[real_bristol]

3 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

True. It's quite an interesting situation. I don't think Cotterill could've done the restructuring as effectively but likewise if the roles were reversed, I don't think SO'D could have joined the club when Cotterill did and achieved such an emphatic promotion. 

Agreed. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that SOD went on to a coaching role (again, if my memory serves..) and Cotts is the better manager. He still had so much to do. He made that crop believe in themselves and turned Aden Flint into Lionel effing Messi by the end of the season. What a year that was. As a side note, I for one haven’t given enough credit to Cotts’ coaches at the time.

[bcfcredandwhite]

1 hour ago, glynriley said:

 

Really? Given the resources available to the two of them, is it any surprise.

FFS.

You seem to have missed the point of the article and judging by your articulate suffix don’t want to see the point of it. 
 

Todays squad is better on paper than the one that LJ had - so why aren’t we higher in the table?

or do you think LJs squad was better?

that was what the OP was asking IMHO  

I think that’s a valid question. You probably don’t. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by bcfcredandwhite
Add words

[glynriley]

17 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

You seem to have missed the point of the article and judging by your articulate suffix don’t want to see the point of it. 
 

Todays squad is better on paper than the one that LJ had - so why aren’t we higher in the table?

or do you think LJs squad was better?

that was what the OP was asking IMHO  

I think that’s a valid question. You probably don’t. 

The FFS was in response to your rather juvenile offering "Pearson 'love-in' brigade"

As for the rest, if you, or anyone else on here, honestly believes that this current squad is in anyway stronger than any squad that LJ had during his reign, well, words fail me.

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by glynriley

[Colombo Robin]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

No, no and no.

All available evidence suggests the opposite.

Absolutely incredible how you could even hypothesise such nonsense out of thin air.

His man management of players is his strength. Have you not heard any Leicester players talk about him? Why do you think Matty James came here when he would have better paid offers elsewhere? Or King for that matter. Where is the evidence any of our players aren't putting the effort in for him? How come players he's dropped have come back into the team and performed well? Where the hell do people get this shit from? **** me. 

Have you watched any of our recent games? Do they look well motivated? 

I respect your view. If you find it so hard reading other peoples opinions i'd have a think about whether internet forums are the place for you

[firstdivision]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, a thought provoking post from a new angle.  Guess what?  It provoked thought and responses with great maturity and thought from the likes of @Oléand @The Constant Rabbit, but because they challenged @Harry’s point of view (and your want of Nige Out, you don’t like it.

There are some great responses on both sides of the argument across OTIB at the mo’, but why are certain OTIB posters trying to shut down opposing views.  Debate / discuss what you like about Harry’s post, that’s the right way to engage.

 

Who says I want NP out, Dave? I have never said that. I’m sceptical about his time as manager, yes. I don’t particularly like his demeanour.  I wouldn’t have given him a three-year contract 18 months ago. But please find where I’ve written that I want him out. Go on. 

I honestly don’t know the right course of action. I debate it with myself every day. What I do find puzzling is the unswerving faith in him from some. It feels almost cultish at times. Just because I praised Harry’s post, people get their y-fronts in a twist. So be it. 

I’ll be at Millwall tonight hoping we can get three points, like I was at  the WBA game on Monday. I hope everyone on here will be joining me.

I didn’t boo on Monday. I didn’t shout ‘you don’t know what you’re doing’. I didn’t shout ‘we want Pearson out.’ 
What does make me laugh, though, is the ‘there’s no alternative’ narrative. There’s always an alternative. No one knows whether the alternative will be better or worse. But they assert that they do. I don’t know and nor do you. 
 

Edited December 29, 2022 by firstdivision

[Spike]

On 27/12/2022 at 23:17, Harry said:

Pearson has managed to replace those 30 unwanted players with Semenyo (a sought after talent), Scott (a much sought after talent), Conway (a potentially sought after talent, Atkinson (a £1.6m centre back), James & King (2 of his own studs who’ve won a premier league), Naismith (the player of the season at a team which got to the playoffs), Klose (a man with recent prem experience and promotion from this league).

So, the question is, Johnson got that bunch of players, most of which no fans really wanted and who have done nothing of note since leaving City, to 7th in the league, whilst Pearson has had 7 of the regulars from that Johnson team plus his own additions of generational talents and premier league players. So how did Johnson manage to get what could be easily argued as a worse team man for man into 7th place and nearly into the playoffs, whilst Pearson hasn’t managed to string any kind of form together over a 22 month stretch with arguably a better squad? 
 

I really feel that we are over-egging the impact the financial situation is having on Pearson’s job. Yes, the financial situation is very real and he hasn’t had a great deal to play with, but the squad now is arguably better man for man than the one Johnson had. Should Pearson be getting much more out of this squad than a record of 24-19-41, a 28.5% win rate, when Johnson was getting a 46% win rate from a worse bunch of players who needed to all be removed from the club!
 

Personally, I think the bloke is getting away with murder. 

To address those 7 players:

Bentley - Pearson has finally seen what was clear when he was brought in, the man doesn't come out to claim the ball and so Max has been given the reigns because despite being not as good of a shot stopper he is willing to come out to command his area. 
Kalas - Is not a leader at all, doesn't command the back line and despite being a good defender has been injured more than he's been fit under Pearson (I think, if not it's certainly close)
Baker - A real leader in defence, rough and dangerous tackles with him but he led the backline, Pearson has lost this and hasn't been able to replace that leadership.
Dasilva - Technically a strong player but has deteriorated considerably and being as he's been used in the same position this doesn't reflect on Pearson, it's just a case of a player losing their edge.
Massengo - I'm in agreement with Pearson, the lad doesn't want to be here, he's not willing to sign, why would he drop James who he knows well for a kid who will be gone in 6 months. Is Massengo better? Maybe, but he's not a part of this clubs future.
Weimann - Victim of his own ability IMO. When Pearson allowed him to play as striker he was great, scored and would give 100%, the issue is we now have Semenyo, Conway, Wells and Bell all fighting for two spots, then you have Scott who is naturally an attacking midfielder fighting for that role behind the strikers. I honestly thought Wells would be gone and Weimann would be moved back into contention for the strikers role but since Wells has signed a new contract it means there is still too much competition for too few places in the team. Andi can play most roles so Pearson can't leave him out but can play him right wing back where he is better than Sykes. I'm surprised Tanner hasn't been given a real chance here and if I'm honest Weimann and the Right Wing Back position is Pearsons main undoing. We know Wilson was bought to play there but is injured, Sykes gets a lot of abuse but again he's not a RWB, he's a midfielder who has ended up put in that RWB role as he was obviously the best we could get as back up for Wilson. Unfortunately this hasn't worked out so Pearson has resulted to using Andi as he knows he'll give 100% (the trust that Pearson mentioned applies to this situation IMO and is the reasons Andi is never dropped.).
Wells - I think he'd be gone if it wasn't for Conway, I honestly think the sole reason he has another 2 years is because Conway plays well with him and Wells was willing to take the paycut. Conway is without a doubt a great talent that can improve so is probably first on the team sheet for the forward positions and because he works best with Wells Well's is second on that list. Wells is physically very fit and he's sharp when he's infront of goal but I don't think we play to his strengths either, he's that player who gets into spaces and poaches goals, we don't create those kinds of chances very often, more of our chances come from crosses or catching the opposition on the break but we've reverted to playing long balls down the wing for the strikers to chase onto which never worked once against West Brom. Wells suits a team who play quick passing football in and around the area, the exact opposite to us and much more suited to what LJ played.

This is where the difference comes into the squads.. LJ could mix his team up, yes he had those 7 players but he also had a wealth of other options that Pearson doesn't have. LJ's squad was huge in comparison to what we have now which meant less pressure on some players to perform as he could switch them out and change things up, Pearson has the bare bones of a previous squad with the ones mentioned who are still here on way more than we can afford now. Come the summer LJ's players will be largely gone and it'll probably be the first time Pearson has been able to make genuine changes, the problem is he'll have no money to do it, meaning he'll be shopping for free's like King, James and Sykes whilst LJ had players like Brownhill Top 6 Champ/Prem quality), Fammy, Pack etc 
You only need look at the size and range in quality/experience of LJ's squad and compare it to Pearsons and you can instantly see what the money LJ had did, as much as we complained about certain players at the time they were far better than what we have now. If anything I think if Pearson had been in charge when we had the likes of some of the players we had then I feel he would have reinvested a lot better than we did at the time.

For me the only real reason to want Pearson out is that he's rubbing the fans up the wrong way. I think he's right in a lot of the things he says but for a man with so much experience he's still too quick to put it into words and it comes back to bite him in the ass and cause the fans to turn on him. I'd also add using Weimann on the wing is also irritating the fans too because of how prolific Weimann was last season.

I still kind of hope he makes it to the summer when money will be freed up on wages and he may begin to actually turn the squad around instead of relying on players that obviously are not in his plans. I also think against West Brom we may have seen the beginning of the players turning their backs to him because a lot of them know they won't be here next season and that's another reason why he has trust issues with some players.
Having said this I don't think he'll be manager in a months time, I can seriously see the fans being the forcing hand behind him leaving and then the same fans will be moaning about SL bringing in a "cheap option" because we can't afford to bring in a good manager because we just fired a manager who's made it abundantly clear that we're walking a fine line with FFP. I honestly think that's what will happen though, the board will feel pressured to get rid of Pearson due to fans turning on him, then we'll hire cheap, fans will say SL is to blame for sacking NP and not replacing him without someone better despite the fans knowing we can't afford better, SL is in a lose lose situation, he's damned if he does and he's damned if he doesn't.

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 hour ago, Colombo Robin said:

If you find it so hard reading other peoples opinions i'd have a think about whether internet forums are the place for you

Good advice. 

Different opinions are absolutely fine - those based on evidence or, failing that,  logic.

But those based on crass fuckwittery, a basic misreading of the evidence that leads to 2 + 2 equalling anything but 4, tend to get my goat.

As social media is, by and large, a megaphone for morons, I have to agree it's probably not the place for me. But you'll have to excuse me, I'm off to argue with a poster who believes Pearson hasn't improved performances, despite the evidence which indicates we frequently went entire matches under his predecessor without a single shot on goal or a single corner, our possession stats were risible, and games felt like the siege of the alamo. Whereas now there's clear evidence to the contrary, of an improvement. (Results are something else, of course! Still an improvement on  his predecessor but not by enough - everyone, yes everyone, agrees on that.)

So - evidence, facts, reliable data, that's what I'm interested in and I appreciate that's not what social media is about, by and large. 

PS. Given your hypothesis is a crass misreading of the available evidence, I maintain it's horseshit

Edited December 29, 2022 by Merrick's Marvels

[Colombo Robin]

7 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Good advice. 

Different opinions are absolutely fine - those based on evidence or, failing that,  logic.

But those based on crass fuckwittery, a basic misreading of the evidence that leads to 2 + 2 equalling anything but 4, tends to get my goat.

As social media is, by and large, a megaphone for morons, I'll have to agree it's probably not the place for me. But you'll have to excuse me, I'm off to argue with a poster who believes Pearson hasn't improved performances, despite the evidence indicating we frequently went entire matches under his predecessor without a single shot on goal or corner, our possession stats were risible and games felt like the siege of the alamo. Whereas now...

Evidence, facts, reliable data, that's what I'm interested in. I appreciate that's not what social media is about. 

PS. Your hypothesis is still horseshit

Its not 2 + 2 = anything but 4 though is it. Football aside, many people think Pearson is an arrogant, petulant ***** with a massively inflated opinion of himself. Is it really such a massive leap to think some of the players have the same view? 

 

 

[Merrick's Marvels]

10 minutes ago, Colombo Robin said:

Its not 2 + 2 = anything but 4 though is it. Football aside, many people think Pearson is an arrogant, petulant ***** with a massively inflated opinion of himself.

Again, a crass misreading.

It appears you have a PhD in it, if that's what you think of him. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Merrick's Marvels

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

You seem to have missed the point of the article and judging by your articulate suffix don’t want to see the point of it. 
 

Todays squad is better on paper than the one that LJ had - so why aren’t we higher in the table?

or do you think LJs squad was better?

that was what the OP was asking IMHO  

I think that’s a valid question. You probably don’t. 

FWIW, I think LJ’s “squad” was miles better than Nige’s “squad”.  If you put best team v best team that would be a good debate.  But I posted LJ’s squad in an earlier post (or other thread) and I think it is massively superior in its individual players, but importantly it’s depth.

I honestly don’t think comparing LJ with Nige can lead to a conclusive verdict, apples and pears really.  But it’s a forum and it provoked a good discussion, that’s the main thing.

1 hour ago, firstdivision said:

Who says I want NP out, Dave? I have never said that. I’m sceptical about his time as manager, yes. I don’t particularly like his demeanour.  I wouldn’t have given him a three-year contract 18 months ago. But please find where I’ve written that I want him out. Go on. 

I honestly don’t know the right course of action. I debate it with myself every day. What I do find puzzling is the unswerving faith in him from some. It feels almost cultish at times. Just because I praised Harry’s post, people get their y-fronts in a twist. So be it. 

I’ll be at Millwall tonight hoping we can get three points, like I was at  the WBA game on Monday. I hope everyone on here will be joining me.

I didn’t boo on Monday. I didn’t shout ‘you don’t know what you’re doing’. I didn’t shout ‘we want Pearson out.’ 
What does make me laugh, though, is the ‘there’s no alternative’ narrative. There’s always an alternative. No one knows whether the alternative will be better or worse. But they assert that they do. I don’t know and nor do you. 
 

Sorry, thought you were from your posts, even if you haven’t said so. Apols if not.

re Alternatives, of course there’s always alternatives.  You or I could take on the job, or maybe partner up?

Back to reality, and your point, I’m not a subscriber to “if you can’t name a replacement, you can’t have an opinion” viewpoint, it’s why I often talk in terms of manager names by type, e.g. a Warne-type, an Ainsworth-type, a Duff-type, because availability is unknown by the likes of us, cost to dismiss Nige, cost to compensate new manager’s old club, etc.

Its a tough period at the mo’.

I’m just a patient bloke and prepared to watch how things go.  If we played like Boxing Day every week, I’d be worried.  But I think overall we will be ok.

Really interested in tonight’s performance, although digressing from your point.

 

[The Bard]

5 minutes ago, Colombo Robin said:

Its not 2 + 2 = anything but 4 though is it. Football aside, many people think Pearson is an arrogant, petulant ***** with a massively inflated opinion of himself. Is it really such a massive leap to think some of the players have the same view? 

 

 

Are these people who know him or just watch his interviews?  Virtually every successful manager has been an arrogant so and so.  Clough and Ferguson spring to mind.  If this is an issue for any players then it's best they leave isn't it?  Trouble is the process of whittling out those who can't cope takes some time.  We're clearly approaching a cull IMO.  He's said he's told some players they need to find a club.  Question is does he get his way or do we revert back to being soft old city, home of the overpaid hanger on. A nice early retirement home.

To rid ourselves of this, we need someone who is arrogant.  Who can sniff out the bluffers and not back down.  That isn't petulance. It's difficult and only gets done by those willing to see in the long term what is needed.  

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Colombo Robin said:

Its not 2 + 2 = anything but 4 though is it. Football aside, many people think Pearson is an arrogant, petulant ***** with a massively inflated opinion of himself. Is it really such a massive leap to think some of the players have the same view? 

 

 

Yes, if you listen to people like Ali Durden last week, who spoke about Nige on 3PIAP pod last week.  Yes, if you listen to the players (although you could accuse them of having a boot on their neck).  Yes, if you listen to ex-players, with the exception of Matt Mills and possibly Tyreeq Bakinson!  Yes, if you listen to his son.

I think (my opinion only) that the Nige you see in media interviews, is nothing like the Nige you see on the training ground / behind the scenes with the players.

One poster on here bumped into Nige over the previous summer and was amazed at how different he was.  Blurted out all manner of stuff like an excited schoolboy.

[David Brent]

2 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

You seem to have missed the point of the article and judging by your articulate suffix don’t want to see the point of it. 
 

Todays squad is better on paper than the one that LJ had - so why aren’t we higher in the table?

or do you think LJs squad was better?

that was what the OP was asking IMHO  

I think that’s a valid question. You probably don’t. 

All teams in this division have better squads now arguably. 

[ashton_fan]

LJ was correctly known as a "streaky" manager, his losing runs meant we never got in the top six, but equally his winning runs meant we were never in danger of relegation. What worries me about NP is that he doesn't do the coaching yet he does pick the team, how does that work? 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

What worries me about NP is that he doesn't do the coaching yet he does pick the team, how does that work? 

The same way it did for Ferguson, Clough, etc.

[bcfcredandwhite]

3 hours ago, glynriley said:

The FFS was in response to your rather juvenile offering "Pearson 'love-in' brigade"

As for the rest, if you, or anyone else on here, honestly believes that this current squad is in anyway stronger than any squad that LJ had during his reign, well, words fail me.

 

What an absolutely fascinating point of view

[ashton_fan]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The same way it did for Ferguson, Clough, etc.

I'm sure Clough did coaching especially when he was younger, him and Peter Taylor worked very closely in any case. Is anyone on our coaching staff working how to negate the opposition and if they do will NP pick the players to execute the plan, I have to say it doesn't look like it when they're on the pitch? They seem to play the same way every game which makes it easy for opposing coaches.

[firstdivision]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

FWIW, I think LJ’s “squad” was miles better than Nige’s “squad”.  If you put best team v best team that would be a good debate.  But I posted LJ’s squad in an earlier post (or other thread) and I think it is massively superior in its individual players, but importantly it’s depth.

I honestly don’t think comparing LJ with Nige can lead to a conclusive verdict, apples and pears really.  But it’s a forum and it provoked a good discussion, that’s the main thing.

Sorry, thought you were from your posts, even if you haven’t said so. Apols if not.

re Alternatives, of course there’s always alternatives.  You or I could take on the job, or maybe partner up?

Back to reality, and your point, I’m not a subscriber to “if you can’t name a replacement, you can’t have an opinion” viewpoint, it’s why I often talk in terms of manager names by type, e.g. a Warne-type, an Ainsworth-type, a Duff-type, because availability is unknown by the likes of us, cost to dismiss Nige, cost to compensate new manager’s old club, etc.

Its a tough period at the mo’.

I’m just a patient bloke and prepared to watch how things go.  If we played like Boxing Day every week, I’d be worried.  But I think overall we will be ok.

Really interested in tonight’s performance, although digressing from your point.

 

Apology accepted. 
We were ok tonight. A more logical team selection, thank god. Solid performance. Largely unattractive game. Millwall looked ordinary but they do some things very well, generally the ugly things.
Good to see Antoine back, too. He’s not quite at the level yet but he created one great chance, nearly scored and was a pest after a disjointed first 30. I nearly always select him in my team. I have King nowhere near it and I don’t have Weimann as wing back if I can help it. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by firstdivision

[BigTone]

16 hours ago, firstdivision said:

Apology accepted. 
We were ok tonight. A more logical team selection, thank god. Solid performance. Largely unattractive game. Millwall looked ordinary but they do some things very well, generally the ugly things.
Good to see Antoine back, too. He’s not quite at the level yet but he created one great chance, nearly scored and was a pest after a disjointed first 30. I nearly always select him in my team. I have King nowhere near it and I don’t have Weimann as wing back if I can help it. 

I think a draw is what most of us aspired to. Let's hope we can kick on this weekend.