Busting some myths….

[Bristol Oil Services]

55 minutes ago, real_bristol said:

. I don’t want to take any credit from Cotts but he caught us at the right time. 

23rd in L1?

[IAmNick]

The longer a manager is at a club, and the more of the squad that is his, the better they should be doing.

The fact is that Lee had a remit to reformat the squad exactly as he wanted (a few times over) so I'd absolutely expect him to be doing as well or better than Pearson with a similar squad.

They were and are his players. The fit the formation he liked, the tactics he liked, behaved how he liked, trained how he liked, they were his. You'd absolutely expect him to be doing well with them.

Pearson doesn't have that luxury. He's mashing together someone else's players, academy kids, and some scraps of free or low fee players. Now that's obviously the lot of a lot of managers at the moment - but it also means it's not a fair comparison in my opinion.

[real_bristol]

11 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

23rd in L1?

I’m sure you are correct. With a squad that should have been way above that. The similarities are endless.

[Harry]

3 hours ago, Olé said:

I love you @Harrybut this is selective reasoning and engineered commentary to contrive a point to suit an agenda.

Don't worry, I only know this because (as you well know) I do it too - you've used all the tricks in the book on this one.

• Make the stat do the work. Choose the optimum date for a results based argument (before one of LJ's collapses)
• Simultaneously choose another factor (in this case a set of players) that most contrasts your point, even though one is not responsible for the other (where's Brownhill?)
• Reduce players down to their own worst caricatures as a commentary to help emphasise your point (Diedhiou "pretty useless" was top scorer and player of the season)
• Do the opposite to build a contrast with the second set of players and manager (Semenyo, Scott, Conway "generational talents" + James, King "premier league studs")
• Conveniently forget stuff. Like err.. doesn't Pearson get credit if Semenyo, Scott, Conway are generational talents? I thought King is someone everyone hates him playing?
• Lists. Lists are great. When you write a long list of things, it's simply got to be true. So you define the criteria then rattle off a long list off players (without Brownhill, obvs)
• Just to prove it - flip the lens around and I can give you some lists too:
  • Players who got us to 7th in 19/20 stat who are now same or higher level than us: Diedhiou, Brownhill, Eliasson, Paterson, Walsh, O'Dowda, Palmer, Nagy, Szmodics, Wright, Pereira, Benkovic
  • Players who got us to 3rd in 22/23 (8 games played) with little or no Championship experience: Scott (36 starts), Atkinson (29 starts), Conway (5 starts), Sykes (0 starts), Wilson (0 starts)
• Context. Never mention it.
  • i.e. 19/20 season also included experienced players like Baker, Rowe, Hunt, Mariappa and a squad coming off a cycle that saw them play alongside Webster, Kelly, Pack, Brownhill months earlier
  • i.e. 22/23 squad 16 players 25 or under including 7 of our top 10 appearances: Vyner, Scott, Dasilva, Conway, Atkinson, Sykes, Williams, O'Leary, Semenyo, Pring, Massengo, Tanner, Wilson, Bell
• A comparison that involves Kalas, a £9m club record signing, consistently injured under Pearson, is clearly not playing fair (I'd argue Kalas/Bentley are NP's only players at peak age of their career)  

There is plenty of merit to debating how effective Nigel Pearson has been but surely we can do so by referencing what is in front of us as the starting point? There is no doubt we're defensively worse than much of the LJ period, with Zak Vyner (a player LJ never trusted) as our most consistent and experienced defensive player (no Kalas, no Baker, no Webster, no Kelly etc). Conversely, the days of zero shots on goal and with no discernible style of play and constantly changing, I think we are better than. We have a clear style of play, create chances, and score goals (and created a 20 goal striker out of one of LJ's squad players).  

Finally since this is unavoidably an LJ comparison, I think you were more sympathetic to him than most, which is not unreasonable, I always praised some of the amazing away wins he orchestrated, and tried to be balanced. I'm somewhat ambivalent about Pearson (though still feel people are going way OTT about present form) but the thing I really despise is the same people who piled on LJ and DH, now hysterically piling on NP at the first opportunity with this self-entitled bloodlust for sackings. No strategy. No patience. Apparently want a young coach like LJ again. It's embarrassing how much the mob charges round in circles. 

You are of course correct Rob. You’re right that I have framed my argument in a certain way, but as you’ll see from my opening line, I’ve really done it to try to spark a slightly different debate - ie one which asks “should Pearson be getting much more from this squad”. So I intentionally made it more of a ‘trolling’ type post and you correctly sussed it

I think as a club, they have been pushing the ‘bad finances’ narrative and this is disguising Nigel’s performance (or even protecting him). 
I guess my point was that Nige has a relatively decent squad when comparing to 3 years ago. I genuinely think, aside from Brownhill, every other member of that previous squad was not fawned over by the fanbase, and the majority of the fanbase were happy to see the majority of them gone. 
Todays team still contains 6 of that team. 5 of those 6 arguably being the more respected/liked by the fanbase of that previous squad. Add Semenyo, Scott, Conway, James, Naismith, Atkinson, Klose, Williams, and I genuinely wonder why this manager isn’t getting more out of them. 
I 100% acknowledge that finances are a huge problem for us. But I refuse to believe that this is the sole reason we’re in a relegation fight. And that’s the general narrative (excuse) coming from the club and the manager. The players we have are plenty decent enough to not be involved in a relegation scrap. As a club they need to quit with the “woe is me” narrative. It’s portraying a loser-mentality. 

[ralphindevon]

I think Nige has said a couple of times we’ve not improved enough or not improving quickly enough and I think we can all agree on that.

The question is do we trust Nige to improve us over the next 4 months or somebody else. I’ve yet to see a name mentioned who would a, come to us and/or b, would be a definite improvement.

Although just for a laugh I’ll say David Moyes could well be out of a job soon, maybe now is FINALLY the time.

[Steve Watts]

4 hours ago, Olé said:

• Just to prove it - flip the lens around and I can give you some lists too:
  • Players who got us to 7th in 19/20 stat who are now same or higher level than us: Diedhiou, Brownhill, Eliasson, Paterson, Walsh, O'Dowda, Palmer, Nagy, Szmodics, Wright, Pereira, Benkovic

That's also up for debate to be honest. Eliasson is plying his trade in Greece, Nagy in Serie B and Benkovic in Bundesliga 2. I'd argue that none of those are on a par with the Championship.

[Tinmans Love Child]

28 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

The longer a manager is at a club, and the more of the squad that is his, the better they should be doing.

The fact is that Lee had a remit to reformat the squad exactly as he wanted (a few times over) so I'd absolutely expect him to be doing as well or better than Pearson with a similar squad.

They were and are his players. The fit the formation he liked, the tactics he liked, behaved how he liked, trained how he liked, they were his. You'd absolutely expect him to be doing well with them.

Pearson doesn't have that luxury. He's mashing together someone else's players, academy kids, and some scraps of free or low fee players. Now that's obviously the lot of a lot of managers at the moment - but it also means it's not a fair comparison in my opinion.

So doesn't that suggest that in two years, NP has not been able to change the culture, attitude, tactics, training etc etc in anyway whatsoever to improve results by just using his experience, man management skills, tactical brain?  If yes then that's pretty poor management in my book.  Whatever players you inherit, what ever business you can or cannot do, after 2 years I would expect improvements on the pitch surely?  If not by now then when?

[IAmNick]

6 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

So doesn't that suggest that in two years, NP has not been able to change the culture, attitude, tactics, training etc etc in anyway whatsoever to improve results by just using his experience, man management skills, tactical brain?  If yes then that's pretty poor management in my book.  Whatever players you inherit, what ever business you can or cannot do, after 2 years I would expect improvements on the pitch surely?  If not by now then when?

I tend to agree, and I think he should be doing better. That doesn't mean I think it's fair to compare the squad 1:1 with Lee's though!

I think it's a lot easier to do that stuff you mention of you have more ability to change the people as well though - not wholesale, a manager can't expect a new squad at every club obviously, but there's a balance.

[One Team]

10 hours ago, Harry said:

Well, I say busting myths. Maybe I’m more trying to stir the pot. But here goes anyway….

At the start of the covid break, March 2020, we had Lee Johnson in charge. 37 games had been played. We were 7th. 1 point off the playoffs. Since the turn of the year, we’d won 5, drawn 2 and lost 5. 
 

In those 12 games of the calendar year to date, the following players were regulars :

Bentley, Kalas, Baker, Dasilva, Massengo, Weimann, Wells. 
 

7 players who have all been part of Pearson’s squads in the 22 months he’s been here. 
 

We keep hearing about the massive job Pearson has had to do. We hear that he’s had to get rid off bad eggs, overpaid primadonnas and not have any funds to bring his own players in. 
 

7 of the team that had us in 7th place after 37 games have been at his disposal. Sadly Bakers time was cut short, but he was available for Pearson for a fair while during his tenure. 
 

Players who have left the club under Pearson are :

Szmodics, Elliason, Morrell, J Smith, Bailey Wright, Matty Taylor, Korey Smith, Rory Holden, Adelakun, Diedhiou, Baldwin, Opi Edwards, Gilmartin, Hunt, Lansbury, Hinds, Mariappa, Paterson, Rowe, Walsh, Watkins, Wallocott, Nagy, Nurse, Palmer, O’Dowda, Janneh, Bakinson, Britton, Cundy. 
 

Of all of those gone, 30 listed, not a single one has gone to a higher ranked division and not a single one has been a success anywhere since. 
Of that list, you could probably get an argument for Paterson as being a decent player here, Diedhiou was generally pretty useless but for the odd goal and had cult status, Korey had a good career here but was on the wane, and Eliasson had a “good cross on him” but little else. 
Of all the others, there probably aren’t many fans who could put up a good argument for why they should have stayed at City and in most cases the majority of the fanbase were happy to see them go. 
 

So, let’s disregard all the financial arguments. Johnson had money and Pearson hasn’t. Yes, I get it. 
But the squad that Johnson ended with here in March 2020 contained 7 of the same squad Pearson has had at his disposal and 30 other players which no one really wanted here anyway and were not bothered when they left. 

Pearson has managed to replace those 30 unwanted players with Semenyo (a sought after talent), Scott (a much sought after talent), Conway (a potentially sought after talent, Atkinson (a £1.6m centre back), James & King (2 of his own studs who’ve won a premier league), Naismith (the player of the season at a team which got to the playoffs), Klose (a man with recent prem experience and promotion from this league).

So, the question is, Johnson got that bunch of players, most of which no fans really wanted and who have done nothing of note since leaving City, to 7th in the league, whilst Pearson has had 7 of the regulars from that Johnson team plus his own additions of generational talents and premier league players. So how did Johnson manage to get what could be easily argued as a worse team man for man into 7th place and nearly into the playoffs, whilst Pearson hasn’t managed to string any kind of form together over a 22 month stretch with arguably a better squad? 
 

I really feel that we are over-egging the impact the financial situation is having on Pearson’s job. Yes, the financial situation is very real and he hasn’t had a great deal to play with, but the squad now is arguably better man for man than the one Johnson had. Should Pearson be getting much more out of this squad than a record of 24-19-41, a 28.5% win rate, when Johnson was getting a 46% win rate from a worse bunch of players who needed to all be removed from the club!
 

Personally, I think the bloke is getting away with murder. 

An interesting take on things @Harry, which I was about to respond in full to until I got to @Olé’s response which says far more eloquently some of my thoughts. A good debate to raise though! 

I think this current squad is mid-table at best, and as I’ve said said elsewhere, which of our players would get in the starting 11 teams of any club in the top six? One or two at best?

One final thing I would say though is that the one person who definitely got away with it was Lee Johnson. We had some good times for sure, the away wins and the league cup run; but with the support, patience and money he had from SL we absolutely underachieved and it was in part SL’s nepotism that kept LJ in role. 

10 hours ago, Harry said:

Well, I say busting myths. Maybe I’m more trying to stir the pot. But here goes anyway….

At the start of the covid break, March 2020, we had Lee Johnson in charge. 37 games had been played. We were 7th. 1 point off the playoffs. Since the turn of the year, we’d won 5, drawn 2 and lost 5. 
 

In those 12 games of the calendar year to date, the following players were regulars :

Bentley, Kalas, Baker, Dasilva, Massengo, Weimann, Wells. 
 

7 players who have all been part of Pearson’s squads in the 22 months he’s been here. 
 

We keep hearing about the massive job Pearson has had to do. We hear that he’s had to get rid off bad eggs, overpaid primadonnas and not have any funds to bring his own players in. 
 

7 of the team that had us in 7th place after 37 games have been at his disposal. Sadly Bakers time was cut short, but he was available for Pearson for a fair while during his tenure. 
 

Players who have left the club under Pearson are :

Szmodics, Elliason, Morrell, J Smith, Bailey Wright, Matty Taylor, Korey Smith, Rory Holden, Adelakun, Diedhiou, Baldwin, Opi Edwards, Gilmartin, Hunt, Lansbury, Hinds, Mariappa, Paterson, Rowe, Walsh, Watkins, Wallocott, Nagy, Nurse, Palmer, O’Dowda, Janneh, Bakinson, Britton, Cundy. 
 

Of all of those gone, 30 listed, not a single one has gone to a higher ranked division and not a single one has been a success anywhere since. 
Of that list, you could probably get an argument for Paterson as being a decent player here, Diedhiou was generally pretty useless but for the odd goal and had cult status, Korey had a good career here but was on the wane, and Eliasson had a “good cross on him” but little else. 
Of all the others, there probably aren’t many fans who could put up a good argument for why they should have stayed at City and in most cases the majority of the fanbase were happy to see them go. 
 

So, let’s disregard all the financial arguments. Johnson had money and Pearson hasn’t. Yes, I get it. 
But the squad that Johnson ended with here in March 2020 contained 7 of the same squad Pearson has had at his disposal and 30 other players which no one really wanted here anyway and were not bothered when they left. 

Pearson has managed to replace those 30 unwanted players with Semenyo (a sought after talent), Scott (a much sought after talent), Conway (a potentially sought after talent, Atkinson (a £1.6m centre back), James & King (2 of his own studs who’ve won a premier league), Naismith (the player of the season at a team which got to the playoffs), Klose (a man with recent prem experience and promotion from this league).

So, the question is, Johnson got that bunch of players, most of which no fans really wanted and who have done nothing of note since leaving City, to 7th in the league, whilst Pearson has had 7 of the regulars from that Johnson team plus his own additions of generational talents and premier league players. So how did Johnson manage to get what could be easily argued as a worse team man for man into 7th place and nearly into the playoffs, whilst Pearson hasn’t managed to string any kind of form together over a 22 month stretch with arguably a better squad? 
 

I really feel that we are over-egging the impact the financial situation is having on Pearson’s job. Yes, the financial situation is very real and he hasn’t had a great deal to play with, but the squad now is arguably better man for man than the one Johnson had. Should Pearson be getting much more out of this squad than a record of 24-19-41, a 28.5% win rate, when Johnson was getting a 46% win rate from a worse bunch of players who needed to all be removed from the club!
 

Personally, I think the bloke is getting away with murder. 

An interesting take on things @Harry, which I was about to respond in full to until I got to @Olé’s response which says far more eloquently some of my thoughts. A good debate to raise though! 

I think this current squad is mid-table at best, and as I’ve said said elsewhere, which of our players would get in the starting 11 teams of any club in the top six? One or two at best?

One final thing I would say though is that the one person who definitely got away with it was Lee Johnson. We had some good times for sure, the away wins and the league cup run; but with the support, patience and money he had from SL we absolutely underachieved and it was in part SL’s nepotism that kept LJ in role. 

10 hours ago, Harry said:

Well, I say busting myths. Maybe I’m more trying to stir the pot. But here goes anyway….

At the start of the covid break, March 2020, we had Lee Johnson in charge. 37 games had been played. We were 7th. 1 point off the playoffs. Since the turn of the year, we’d won 5, drawn 2 and lost 5. 
 

In those 12 games of the calendar year to date, the following players were regulars :

Bentley, Kalas, Baker, Dasilva, Massengo, Weimann, Wells. 
 

7 players who have all been part of Pearson’s squads in the 22 months he’s been here. 
 

We keep hearing about the massive job Pearson has had to do. We hear that he’s had to get rid off bad eggs, overpaid primadonnas and not have any funds to bring his own players in. 
 

7 of the team that had us in 7th place after 37 games have been at his disposal. Sadly Bakers time was cut short, but he was available for Pearson for a fair while during his tenure. 
 

Players who have left the club under Pearson are :

Szmodics, Elliason, Morrell, J Smith, Bailey Wright, Matty Taylor, Korey Smith, Rory Holden, Adelakun, Diedhiou, Baldwin, Opi Edwards, Gilmartin, Hunt, Lansbury, Hinds, Mariappa, Paterson, Rowe, Walsh, Watkins, Wallocott, Nagy, Nurse, Palmer, O’Dowda, Janneh, Bakinson, Britton, Cundy. 
 

Of all of those gone, 30 listed, not a single one has gone to a higher ranked division and not a single one has been a success anywhere since. 
Of that list, you could probably get an argument for Paterson as being a decent player here, Diedhiou was generally pretty useless but for the odd goal and had cult status, Korey had a good career here but was on the wane, and Eliasson had a “good cross on him” but little else. 
Of all the others, there probably aren’t many fans who could put up a good argument for why they should have stayed at City and in most cases the majority of the fanbase were happy to see them go. 
 

So, let’s disregard all the financial arguments. Johnson had money and Pearson hasn’t. Yes, I get it. 
But the squad that Johnson ended with here in March 2020 contained 7 of the same squad Pearson has had at his disposal and 30 other players which no one really wanted here anyway and were not bothered when they left. 

Pearson has managed to replace those 30 unwanted players with Semenyo (a sought after talent), Scott (a much sought after talent), Conway (a potentially sought after talent, Atkinson (a £1.6m centre back), James & King (2 of his own studs who’ve won a premier league), Naismith (the player of the season at a team which got to the playoffs), Klose (a man with recent prem experience and promotion from this league).

So, the question is, Johnson got that bunch of players, most of which no fans really wanted and who have done nothing of note since leaving City, to 7th in the league, whilst Pearson has had 7 of the regulars from that Johnson team plus his own additions of generational talents and premier league players. So how did Johnson manage to get what could be easily argued as a worse team man for man into 7th place and nearly into the playoffs, whilst Pearson hasn’t managed to string any kind of form together over a 22 month stretch with arguably a better squad? 
 

I really feel that we are over-egging the impact the financial situation is having on Pearson’s job. Yes, the financial situation is very real and he hasn’t had a great deal to play with, but the squad now is arguably better man for man than the one Johnson had. Should Pearson be getting much more out of this squad than a record of 24-19-41, a 28.5% win rate, when Johnson was getting a 46% win rate from a worse bunch of players who needed to all be removed from the club!
 

Personally, I think the bloke is getting away with murder. 

An interesting take on things @Harry, which I was about to respond in full to until I got to @Olé’s response which says far more eloquently some of my thoughts. A good debate to raise though! 

I think this current squad is mid-table at best, and as I’ve said said elsewhere, which of our players would get in the starting 11 teams of any club in the top six? One or two at best?

One final thing I would say though is that the one person who definitely got away with it was Lee Johnson. We had some good times for sure, the away wins and the league cup run; but with the support, patience and money he had from SL we absolutely underachieved and it was in part SL’s nepotism that kept LJ in role. 

10 hours ago, Harry said:

Well, I say busting myths. Maybe I’m more trying to stir the pot. But here goes anyway….

At the start of the covid break, March 2020, we had Lee Johnson in charge. 37 games had been played. We were 7th. 1 point off the playoffs. Since the turn of the year, we’d won 5, drawn 2 and lost 5. 
 

In those 12 games of the calendar year to date, the following players were regulars :

Bentley, Kalas, Baker, Dasilva, Massengo, Weimann, Wells. 
 

7 players who have all been part of Pearson’s squads in the 22 months he’s been here. 
 

We keep hearing about the massive job Pearson has had to do. We hear that he’s had to get rid off bad eggs, overpaid primadonnas and not have any funds to bring his own players in. 
 

7 of the team that had us in 7th place after 37 games have been at his disposal. Sadly Bakers time was cut short, but he was available for Pearson for a fair while during his tenure. 
 

Players who have left the club under Pearson are :

Szmodics, Elliason, Morrell, J Smith, Bailey Wright, Matty Taylor, Korey Smith, Rory Holden, Adelakun, Diedhiou, Baldwin, Opi Edwards, Gilmartin, Hunt, Lansbury, Hinds, Mariappa, Paterson, Rowe, Walsh, Watkins, Wallocott, Nagy, Nurse, Palmer, O’Dowda, Janneh, Bakinson, Britton, Cundy. 
 

Of all of those gone, 30 listed, not a single one has gone to a higher ranked division and not a single one has been a success anywhere since. 
Of that list, you could probably get an argument for Paterson as being a decent player here, Diedhiou was generally pretty useless but for the odd goal and had cult status, Korey had a good career here but was on the wane, and Eliasson had a “good cross on him” but little else. 
Of all the others, there probably aren’t many fans who could put up a good argument for why they should have stayed at City and in most cases the majority of the fanbase were happy to see them go. 
 

So, let’s disregard all the financial arguments. Johnson had money and Pearson hasn’t. Yes, I get it. 
But the squad that Johnson ended with here in March 2020 contained 7 of the same squad Pearson has had at his disposal and 30 other players which no one really wanted here anyway and were not bothered when they left. 

Pearson has managed to replace those 30 unwanted players with Semenyo (a sought after talent), Scott (a much sought after talent), Conway (a potentially sought after talent, Atkinson (a £1.6m centre back), James & King (2 of his own studs who’ve won a premier league), Naismith (the player of the season at a team which got to the playoffs), Klose (a man with recent prem experience and promotion from this league).

So, the question is, Johnson got that bunch of players, most of which no fans really wanted and who have done nothing of note since leaving City, to 7th in the league, whilst Pearson has had 7 of the regulars from that Johnson team plus his own additions of generational talents and premier league players. So how did Johnson manage to get what could be easily argued as a worse team man for man into 7th place and nearly into the playoffs, whilst Pearson hasn’t managed to string any kind of form together over a 22 month stretch with arguably a better squad? 
 

I really feel that we are over-egging the impact the financial situation is having on Pearson’s job. Yes, the financial situation is very real and he hasn’t had a great deal to play with, but the squad now is arguably better man for man than the one Johnson had. Should Pearson be getting much more out of this squad than a record of 24-19-41, a 28.5% win rate, when Johnson was getting a 46% win rate from a worse bunch of players who needed to all be removed from the club!
 

Personally, I think the bloke is getting away with murder. 

An interesting take on things @Harry, which I was about to respond in full to until I got to @Olé’s response which says far more eloquently some of my thoughts. A good debate to raise though! 

I think this current squad is mid-table at best, and as I’ve said said elsewhere, which of our players would get in the starting 11 teams of any club in the top six? One or two at best?

One final thing I would say though is that the one person who definitely got away with it was Lee Johnson. We had some good times for sure, the away wins and the league cup run; but with the support, patience and money he had from SL we absolutely underachieved and it was in part SL’s nepotism that kept LJ in role. 

[One Team]

10 hours ago, Harry said:

Well, I say busting myths. Maybe I’m more trying to stir the pot. But here goes anyway….

At the start of the covid break, March 2020, we had Lee Johnson in charge. 37 games had been played. We were 7th. 1 point off the playoffs. Since the turn of the year, we’d won 5, drawn 2 and lost 5. 
 

In those 12 games of the calendar year to date, the following players were regulars :

Bentley, Kalas, Baker, Dasilva, Massengo, Weimann, Wells. 
 

7 players who have all been part of Pearson’s squads in the 22 months he’s been here. 
 

We keep hearing about the massive job Pearson has had to do. We hear that he’s had to get rid off bad eggs, overpaid primadonnas and not have any funds to bring his own players in. 
 

7 of the team that had us in 7th place after 37 games have been at his disposal. Sadly Bakers time was cut short, but he was available for Pearson for a fair while during his tenure. 
 

Players who have left the club under Pearson are :

Szmodics, Elliason, Morrell, J Smith, Bailey Wright, Matty Taylor, Korey Smith, Rory Holden, Adelakun, Diedhiou, Baldwin, Opi Edwards, Gilmartin, Hunt, Lansbury, Hinds, Mariappa, Paterson, Rowe, Walsh, Watkins, Wallocott, Nagy, Nurse, Palmer, O’Dowda, Janneh, Bakinson, Britton, Cundy. 
 

Of all of those gone, 30 listed, not a single one has gone to a higher ranked division and not a single one has been a success anywhere since. 
Of that list, you could probably get an argument for Paterson as being a decent player here, Diedhiou was generally pretty useless but for the odd goal and had cult status, Korey had a good career here but was on the wane, and Eliasson had a “good cross on him” but little else. 
Of all the others, there probably aren’t many fans who could put up a good argument for why they should have stayed at City and in most cases the majority of the fanbase were happy to see them go. 
 

So, let’s disregard all the financial arguments. Johnson had money and Pearson hasn’t. Yes, I get it. 
But the squad that Johnson ended with here in March 2020 contained 7 of the same squad Pearson has had at his disposal and 30 other players which no one really wanted here anyway and were not bothered when they left. 

Pearson has managed to replace those 30 unwanted players with Semenyo (a sought after talent), Scott (a much sought after talent), Conway (a potentially sought after talent, Atkinson (a £1.6m centre back), James & King (2 of his own studs who’ve won a premier league), Naismith (the player of the season at a team which got to the playoffs), Klose (a man with recent prem experience and promotion from this league).

So, the question is, Johnson got that bunch of players, most of which no fans really wanted and who have done nothing of note since leaving City, to 7th in the league, whilst Pearson has had 7 of the regulars from that Johnson team plus his own additions of generational talents and premier league players. So how did Johnson manage to get what could be easily argued as a worse team man for man into 7th place and nearly into the playoffs, whilst Pearson hasn’t managed to string any kind of form together over a 22 month stretch with arguably a better squad? 
 

I really feel that we are over-egging the impact the financial situation is having on Pearson’s job. Yes, the financial situation is very real and he hasn’t had a great deal to play with, but the squad now is arguably better man for man than the one Johnson had. Should Pearson be getting much more out of this squad than a record of 24-19-41, a 28.5% win rate, when Johnson was getting a 46% win rate from a worse bunch of players who needed to all be removed from the club!
 

Personally, I think the bloke is getting away with murder. 

An interesting take on things @Harry, which I was about to respond in full to until I got to @Olé’s response which says far more eloquently some of my thoughts. A good debate to raise though! 

I think this current squad is mid-table at best, and as I’ve said said elsewhere, which of our players would get in the starting 11 teams of any club in the top six? One or two at best?

One final thing I would say though is that the one person who definitely got away with it was Lee Johnson. We had some good times for sure, the away wins and the league cup run; but with the support, patience and money he had from SL we absolutely underachieved and it was in part SL’s nepotism that kept LJ in role. 

[Tinmans Love Child]

3 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I tend to agree, and I think he should be doing better. That doesn't mean I think it's fair to compare the squad 1:1 with Lee's though!

I think it's a lot easier to do that stuff you mention of you have more ability to change the people as well though - not wholesale, a manager can't expect a new squad at every club obviously, but there's a balance.

Maybe not fair to compare but LJ also had the Crown Jewels sold every summer to contend with, interesting debate 

[Bazooka Joe]

32 minutes ago, Harry said:

Todays team still contains 6 of that team. 5 of those 6 arguably being the more respected/liked by the fanbase of that previous squad. Add Semenyo, Scott, Conway, James, Naismith, Atkinson, Klose, Williams, and I genuinely wonder why this manager isn’t getting more out of them.

Maybe, just maybe, none/some of them are not as good as some supporters think they are.

And if, (and for me, it's a big "if"), they are as good as people think they are, the question should be "Why aren't these players, taking some personal responsibility for not playing as well as we believe they can?"

It's too simplistic to just blame Pearson for everything that's wrong, though ultimately, the buck has to stop with him (or Lansdown).

[One Team]

Apologies for the multiple replies above, not sure what happened there!

[Olé]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Todays team still contains 6 of that team. 5 of those 6 arguably being the more respected/liked by the fanbase of that previous squad. Add Semenyo, Scott, Conway, James, Naismith, Atkinson, Klose, Williams, and I genuinely wonder why this manager isn’t getting more out of them. 

I actually don't think the club themselves are pushing the "got no money" narrative unless I've missed something. Neither am I. The point is however as a result of this we do have a smaller squad with a lot fewer players who are Championship (or equivalent league) ready and even the players that we all rate who you are calling out above, are in the infancy of their careers and lacking experience. Which DOES make a difference when it comes to things like a) consistency b) flaws in concentration and mistakes, and c) not holding onto leads. Coinci-bloody-dentally, precisely the things that are literally the difference between NP being a success or not.

• Pearson doesn't go on long losing runs, but has few long unbeaten runs (August and the end to last season, August this season) as consistency is hard to come by
• We are, for two seasons running now, a team that is among the top 2-3 in the league for taking the lead (or points at half time) and the worst for throwing away points 
• The last 7 defeats (in 14) which seems to have done for most people shouting "Pearson Out", literally 6 of them were down to frankly pathetic schoolboy mistakes

And that's the difference. It's not that on paper we can't put together a really positive 11 players today that matches up to 19/20, it's that compared to LJ's a-la-carte squad selection we have absolutely no strength in depth of any experience at all positions if we need to move things around (and that's before everyone howls in derision at playing Weimann over L1/2 RWB's or King at CB) and even within that 11 the brightest assets we have are all either early in their career and still learning and making mistakes* or at the twilight of their career and visibly fading (does anyone think we're getting the best version of Matty James even vs last season)?

Also, since you're calling out the like for like players from 19/20 "Todays team still contains 6 of that team" let's just have a bit of context (again). Bentley (out of contract, trying to build MO'L as long term choice), Kalas (consistently injured), Dasilva (do you dispute he has regressed?), Massengo (out of contract and refuses to sign a new one - and I might add, a player you have never rated, or is NP wrong about that!?), plus Weimann and Wells. So actually, I think NP has had the run of only two players on a like for like basis, and SHOCK HORROR, I would politely suggest that NP has got MUCH more out of Weimann and Wells than in any LJ team.

*and on the subject of young players making mistakes, god forbid NP talks about trust and doesn't pick everyone's favourite players. Remember when LJ was called all sorts of things for hanging Lloyd Kelly out to dry for his errors, which didn't do Kelly's career any harm. Wind the clock forward and we're a team that makes an inordinate about of unforced individual errors, and I honestly think whoever NP drops the mob will say he's fallen out with them or being stubborn, god forbid he try to toughen up players and set certain standards. It was quite clearly the message with Tanner @ WBA last season and remains something NP does from time to time, but no, everyone knows best and NP is falling out with people left right and centre.

[Bristol Oil Services]

So, c'Mon otib: is it a myth busted, or not? Love to know, cos bustin' makes me feel good

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

You are of course correct Rob. You’re right that I have framed my argument in a certain way, but as you’ll see from my opening line, I’ve really done it to try to spark a slightly different debate - ie one which asks “should Pearson be getting much more from this squad”. So I intentionally made it more of a ‘trolling’ type post and you correctly sussed it

I think as a club, they have been pushing the ‘bad finances’ narrative and this is disguising Nigel’s performance (or even protecting him). 
I guess my point was that Nige has a relatively decent squad when comparing to 3 years ago. I genuinely think, aside from Brownhill, every other member of that previous squad was not fawned over by the fanbase, and the majority of the fanbase were happy to see the majority of them gone. 
Todays team still contains 6 of that team. 5 of those 6 arguably being the more respected/liked by the fanbase of that previous squad. Add Semenyo, Scott, Conway, James, Naismith, Atkinson, Klose, Williams, and I genuinely wonder why this manager isn’t getting more out of them. 
I 100% acknowledge that finances are a huge problem for us. But I refuse to believe that this is the sole reason we’re in a relegation fight. And that’s the general narrative (excuse) coming from the club and the manager. The players we have are plenty decent enough to not be involved in a relegation scrap. As a club they need to quit with the “woe is me” narrative. It’s portraying a loser-mentality. 

Bit in bold.

I think if you asked me (well I guess you have by starting this post) whether I’d take the likes of Diedhiou, Eliasson, Nagy, etc, even O’Dowda in terms of ability for a bottom half club, I’d probably say ok.  But I don’t think they were good enough for where we were aiming for under LJ, top 6.  That’s a difference.  And if those players weren’t really any good, why did LJ buy them in the first place (without going down the line that they were all signed by Mark Ashton).

Re Finances.  They aren’t the sole reason, but they are a fundamental reason why we can’t change the squad.

Yes, LJ had to sell Kodjia, Webster, Brownhill, Bryan, Reid and Flint, but he got to reinvest all of it in players…the fees and wages together probably are more than the fees received and wages spent.  He spent £61m on transfer fees, increased the wage bill 2-fold by his final season, which cost us £45m in increased wages.  But, he needed to do some of that against increased expectations from owner, so I’m not trying to paint that as all being “bad spend”…just contextual “spend”.  But that is without loans too.  LJ was not only able to buy players, but fill gaps with loan players too.  They don’t come cheap, not the likes of Abraham and Afobe, Palmer and Kalas (initially) too.  LJ could “re-load” the squad every window, without having to sell the ones he no longer liked.  That is a huge difference.  If I remove the Rory Holden’s, the Diego Di Girolamo’s from the list, he signed 55 players in 4 seasons from summer 2017.  Some of that was necessary that first summer because loans ended, and Cotts had a slim squad.

Don’t get me wrong LJ did a reasonable job.  Probably his best bit on his CV, but he was incredibly well backed.

As I wrote last night, it’s a good topic of debate.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Rob k said:

I’ve seen nothing from Williams to suggest he’s anything more than an average L1 player, I’ve been very disappointed.

That group of players are now about to get their 3rd manager the sack - when does the realisation set in that even though they are highly paid they just ain’t good enough or got the right attitude that NP alludes too 

Williams prior to joining us was a reasonably solid Championship pro. I wonder if the injuries have wrecked him somewhat.

[Fuber]

3 hours ago, Lrrr said:

Famara was actually pretty poor to play more direct into given his size, struggled to bring balls down and link consistently, he was also poor got working as a pair of forwards usually doing his own thing rather than being able to work as a unit, the amount of times I remember seeing Weimann angry that he hadn’t pressed properly. As for the defensive set pieces I think it says more about the rest of the squad if no one was able to do it, given when I’ve looked at other teams and seen ones with a player whose around 5’9 and does it excellently.

Agreed, square peg round hole. Didn't suite the system.

But that was also down to the manager not really having a system in the first place. Not sure you can blame the player for that.

Fammy was never a pressing forward, and he was very inconsistent when the ball was played into him, agreed.

However, there's a reason Wells' is having to play that role and not TC in the current setup. Conway is a poacher, his actual link up play, in my opinion, isn't as good as Fammy, in my opinion. He can get bullied and disappear too easily from games - there's a reason he went through a spell 7-8 games in when he started getting hooked as he became a bystander.

He is, however, as per my previous point, young and inexperienced, which isn't a problem as long as he's able to adapt and learn.

As for the bit in bold, sure - but what what was said teams squad composition like? We, as a comparison, are horrific in that metric with regards to aerial duels overall - and that comes down to recruitment, which as has been discussed, is where Pearson's hands are tied to just free agents and academy graduates.

Not disbuting that Conway is arguably the better player. But as a squad, I know who on paper would be more useful in our situation.

[Merrick's Marvels]

Nice try, Harry.

Last season we finished 17th. 

This season we hoped to do a bit better.

We still can - 18th at the minute but only half way through the season. 

Yes the football's less than scintillating and we continue to fritter away points but keep the faith! I don't mean that to sound glib - it's effing frustrating, is what it is.

You're right, LJ did have us 1 point off the playoffs when Covid struck in March 20 but we all know what happens then don't we - before May we hit a losing streak and blow it.

Funny how you didn't use stats from the season before:

In April 2019 we beat West Brom 3-2 at home. We're 5th, 6 games left to play, 5 points clear of 7th place with a game in hand. Play offs here we come!

We hit a losing streak and  finished 8th.

And of the 7 starting players against WBA in April 2019 who are no longer here, I'd have every single one of them in today's team/squad. Plus Pisano and Kelly, who came on as subs. So - imho - the tools currently at Pearson's disposal are inferior by some way. 

That finish to 2018-19 was peak Johnson - get into a great position, then fail to deliver. 

Is that what you're pining for? 

Merry xmas! 

Edited December 28, 2022 by Merrick's Marvels

[southvillekiddy]

2 hours ago, Olé said:

 

• We are, for two seasons running now, a team that is among the top 2-3 in the league for taking the lead (or points at half time) and the worst for throwing away points 

Absolutely. Why don't we have the guts to see out a 1 nil lead, or even a 2 nil as other teams do. That has to be down to some collective lack of will. Should professional athletes have to be taught how to have guts? As a group of players they just don't seem to have it.

[Bar BS3]

Forget the squads at their disposal & who managed who & when.....

Without NP here we'd never have had the opportunity to see our top scorer moved to RWB or Andy King holding down a CB position..!

 

It's literally like NP has been taking the piss & the majority on here have been nodding along in agreement, like those Churchill dogs you see in the back of some people's cars..!

Seriously.... how bad is his record in comparison to our worst ever managers...? He must be holding his own amongst that illustrious list..!

 

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Nice try, Harry.

Last season we finished 17th. 

This season we hoped to do a bit better.

We still can - 18th at the minute but only half way through the season. 

Yes the football's less than scintillating and we continue to fritter away points but keep the faith! I don't mean that to sound glib - it's effing frustrating, is what it is.

You're right, LJ did have us 1 point off the playoffs when Covid struck in March 20 but we all know what happens then don't we - before May we hit a losing streak and blow it.

Funny how you didn't use stats from the season before:

In April 2019 we beat West Brom 3-2 at home. We're 5th, 6 games left to play, 5 points clear of 7th place with a game in hand. Play offs here we come!

We hit a losing streak and  finished 8th.

And of the 7 starting players against WBA in April 2019 who are no longer here, I'd have every single one of them in today's team/squad. Plus Pisano and Kelly, who came on as subs. So - imho - the tools currently at Pearson's disposal are inferior by some way. 

That finish to 2018-19 was peak Johnson - get into a great position, then fail to deliver. 

Is that what you're pining for? 

Merry xmas! 

Certainly pining for 8th, yes!

Its a bit like a drawn game, isn’t it? If you have been behind for 80 minutes and grab an equaliser, feels like a result. If you’ve been ahead twice and then conceded twice, feels like a defeat. 

[Kid in the Riot]

4 hours ago, IAmNick said:

The longer a manager is at a club, and the more of the squad that is his, the better they should be doing.

Pearson doesn't have that luxury. He's mashing together someone else's players, academy kids, and some scraps of free or low fee players. Now that's obviously the lot of a lot of managers at the moment - but it also means it's not a fair comparison in my opinion.

Pearson is the division's fourth longest serving manager and has a top 10 wage budget. I'm afraid my sympathies for the "difficulties" of the job in hand are wearing thin. As i pointed out on Boxing Day, there are plenty of managers in the division in worse financial positions than us who are doing better. Managers with smaller wage budgets and have been in charge for less than a year. 

More generally, if we're comparing with the LJ era. I'd suggest the division was stronger back then. That season we finished 7th, we missed out on 6th in an end of season defeat to Lampard's overspending Derby County, and Bielsa's Leeds were also in the play offs (and lost).

Obviously less money about these last few years and the quality of the division is lower as a result. 

[DaveF]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Pearson is the division's fourth longest serving manager and has a top 10 wage budget.

Is that still the case? I know it used to be but we must have made enormous cuts since Pearson has been here, with a lot more coming in the summer.

[Sturny]

2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Pearson is the division's fourth longest serving manager and has a top 10 wage budget. I'm afraid my sympathies for the "difficulties" of the job in hand are wearing thin. As i pointed out on Boxing Day, there are plenty of managers in the division in worse financial positions than us who are doing better. Managers with smaller wage budgets and have been in charge for less than a year. 

More generally, if we're comparing with the LJ era. I'd suggest the division was stronger back then. That season we finished 7th, we missed out on 6th in an end of season defeat to Lampard's overspending Derby County, and Bielsa's Leeds were also in the play offs (and lost).

Obviously less money about these last few years and the quality of the division is lower as a result. 

If we had a top 10 buget surely SL knows this and would set the bar much higher for NP surely? Alarm bells should've been ringing since we've been dancing around a relegation battle since NP took over.

I don't know our accounts as much as some do on here but I struggle to believe we have a top 10 budget, our squad is shiiiite 

[Mad Cyril]

Simple challenge... Name a current player Pearson has playing either at or beyond his ability over the last 2 months.

I only have Conway, and he is moving in the wrong direction lately...

Never mind squad or results - Who is ruining our players??

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Sturny said:

If we had a top 10 buget surely SL knows this and would set the bar much higher for NP surely? Alarm bells should've been ringing since we've been dancing around a relegation battle since NP took over.

I don't know our accounts as much as some do on here but I struggle to believe we have a top 10 budget, our squad is shiiiite 

We were moving towards top 10 in the period of LJ into Holden, but have since cut considerably.

Until we see the accounts for all clubs for 2022 it’s hard to compare.  Last season, our football club wage bill was cut by over 20% (£30.282m down to £23.808m), of which it’s likely with full crowds back in, and some wage costs increased in support areas, that virtually all (maybe all) of that drop was borne by the playing squad.

There is a big difference between top 10 wages for some players (Some legacy of previous managers and probably Naismith) than a whole squad.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Mad Cyril said:

Simple challenge... Name a current player Pearson has playing either at or beyond his ability over the last 2 months.

I only have Conway, and he is moving in the wrong direction lately...

Never mind squad or results - Who is ruining our players??

Pring

O’Leary (overall - since his recall)

Wells

Vyner

Name a player in the opening two months under your same question.  Pretty much all of them.

We are in poor form at the mo.  The manager (and the players) need to sort it out.

 

[Steve Watts]

4 hours ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Maybe, just maybe, none/some of them are not as good as some supporters think they are.

And if, (and for me, it's a big "if"), they are as good as people think they are, the question should be "Why aren't these players, taking some personal responsibility for not playing as well as we believe they can?"

It's too simplistic to just blame Pearson for everything that's wrong, though ultimately, the buck has to stop with him (or Lansdown).

There lies a good point in that there aren't many/any players sticking their head above the parapet at the moment. 

One of our biggest issues is that we don't seem to have the odd player having an off day.  When that happens, we usually have 7 or 8 having a 5/10 (at best) match.  Those that still perform can't carry that many.  Other clubs seem to have only 1 or 2 at any one time.

Again though, that's down to NP and the coaching..  For the moment I'm still in the NP in camp, but I'm beginning to edge towards the other camp.

[Olé]

29 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Without NP here we'd never have had the opportunity to see our top scorer moved to RWB or Andy King holding down a CB position..!

It's literally like NP has been taking the piss & the majority on here have been nodding along in agreement, like those Churchill dogs you see in the back of some people's cars..!

Wait so NP is responsible for him playing at RWB but not responsible for the system and setup that gave him the season of his life and made him top scorer in the first place?

And Andy King is "holding down" a CB position (which started literally only 4 games ago when both Atkinson and then Klose were unfit). What exactly did you want NP to do?

Regarding us all nodding along in agreement to NP, I seem to recall the Churchill dog quite clearly spent the entire time shaking his head, so you might want to look in a mirror.

No no no no don't like this manager wan't another one........ No no no no don't like that manager wan't another one........ No no no no don't like this manager wan't another one.