Recruitment - is ours really as good as we think?

[GrahamC]

2 minutes ago, Henry said:

Agreed. Is Maynard the last striker we have signed on a perm who been a proper goal scorer?

Bell is not a striker. I don’t think he’ll have a championship career, he’ll go the same way as Wes Burns.

Nakhi Wells has scored over 130 league goals in his career.

Whatever his current form if he’s not seen as a proper goal scorer then I don’t know what he is.

It might have been a statistical outlier but Weimann has a 22 goal season under his belt for us, I’m pretty sure if someone had done that at another club in this division then we’d be saying he was a goal scorer.

[Nogbad the Bad]

12 hours ago, Better Red said:

Brownhill, Webster in recent times you could say have been scouted and  been players we have sold on to better things 

Webster's ability and potential was well known in the football world.

The problem was he was always getting injured - hence clubs hesitant to sign him and the reported fee of £3.5m rising to 8m with add-ons.

Very rare add-ons amount to more than the initial fee but it just shows how frail he was thought to be, and how much he had to prove fitness wise.

He was more or less ever present for City, making far more appearances in that season than he has in any other before (or since for that matter), and with fitness apparently proven we got a great fee for him, as did Ipswich with their sell-on.

[Henry]

9 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Nakhi Wells has scored over 130 league goals in his career.

Whatever his current form if he’s not seen as a proper goal scorer then I don’t know what he is.

It might have been a statistical outlier but Weimann has a 22 goal season under his belt for us, I’m pretty sure if someone had done that at another club in this division then we’d be saying he was a goal scorer.

Sorry, I was meant to say young goal scorer.

[Mr Popodopolous]

If Bell is seen as a central striker hmm.

He is a promising wide forward who may score some goals but a wide striker he is. Conway, Wells and Weimann. Maybe at a push Cornick at times but Bell as a central striker is an answer in search of a question.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[mozo]

17 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Nakhi Wells has scored over 130 league goals in his career.

Whatever his current form if he’s not seen as a proper goal scorer then I don’t know what he is.

It might have been a statistical outlier but Weimann has a 22 goal season under his belt for us, I’m pretty sure if someone had done that at another club in this division then we’d be saying he was a goal scorer.

Nige evidently sees Weimann and Wells as back up options for a starting role up front, so maybe we do need to upgrade before top long?

 

[Northern Red]

1 hour ago, Henry said:

Sorry, I was meant to say young goal scorer.

Baldock? Kodjia?

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Nakhi Wells has scored over 130 league goals in his career.

Whatever his current form if he’s not seen as a proper goal scorer then I don’t know what he is.

It might have been a statistical outlier but Weimann has a 22 goal season under his belt for us, I’m pretty sure if someone had done that at another club in this division then we’d be saying he was a goal scorer.

What is relevant is his scoring record in recent years in the Championship. Since the 2018/19 season he’s scored 29 goals in 140 appearances - approx one goal in every 5 matches or approximately 10 goals per season. Admittedly stats can be misleading as some appearances have been as a sub but,  apart from half a season at QPR before he signed for City, he’s never been close to a 20 goals per season striker. That wouldn’t be so bad if City had a lot of goals from midfield but apart from Weimann’s one good season that doesn’t happen. There are exceptions but, in the main, if you want promotion you’ve got to have a 20 goals per season striker 

[GrahamC]

15 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

What is relevant is his scoring record in recent years in the Championship. Since the 2018/19 season he’s scored 29 goals in 140 appearances - approx one goal in every 5 matches or approximately 10 goals per season. Admittedly stats can be misleading as some appearances have been as a sub but,  apart from half a season at QPR before he signed for City, he’s never been close to a 20 goals per season striker. That wouldn’t be so bad if City had a lot of goals from midfield but apart from Weimann’s one good season that doesn’t happen. There are exceptions but, in the main, if you want promotion you’ve got to have a 20 goals per season striker 

Re that last bit here are the “exceptions”..

Last year both Burnley & Sheff U, in 20/21 Watford, in 19/20 Leeds & West Brom.. So about half haven’t had a 20 goal striker & have got promoted in the last 4 years.

You’re right though about Wells, he isn’t a 20 goal a season player more like 13, but as above shows that’s not a problem.

His goal drought in ‘23 worries me more.

[Chessels Chick]

2 hours ago, Henry said:

Agreed. Is Maynard the last striker we have signed on a perm who been a proper goal scorer?

Bell is not a striker. I don’t think he’ll have a championship career, he’ll go the same way as Wes Burns.

Who is playing in the championship

[Harry]

4 hours ago, mozo said:

When was Weimann?

Correct me if I'm wrong but in those 5 years, Andi Weimann was the only player to score more than 12 league goals in a season.

He was the start of the 2018 season I think. 
But he’s not an out and out striker. 
In my post earlier I was referring to Bell basically playing as the lone central striker. It’s that position which I’m referencing. 
Weimann is more of the wide forward type, same as Bell really. Whilst his scoring record has been decent I don’t class him as an out and out striker. 

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

I also think the comments about signing strikers is a bit rich, we are looking to develop our own which with Semenyo then Conway & Bell is a strategy that makes a lot of sense & if TC was fit, I’m not sure people would be posting this.

As above, I’m talking specifically about the central striker. The old number 9 as it were. 
Bell is not one of those. Yes, we had Semenyo and now Conway to compete in that role but in the last 5, now 6th seasons, we’ve recruited Martin, Wells and Cornick. Not good enough in my opinion. 

Martin was a lazy lump at the end of his career. 
Wells, whilst I do actually like him, he’s not really been very good for us, in the main. 
Cornick. Well, jury is out at the moment but it ain’t looking great is it. And again, he’s someone I actually quite like, so that nothing personal against him. 
 

Overall, in the last 5/6 years, we’ve really struggled to recruit in this most important of areas. 

[Henry]

21 minutes ago, Chessels Chick said:

Who is playing in the championship

Last 7 seasons in league 1. That’s where Bell will spend a lot of his career.Im not knocking it.

At the end at their careers, neither them will have been a Championship striker. 

[pongo88]

22 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Re that last bit here are the “exceptions”..

Last year both Burnley & Sheff U, in 20/21 Watford, in 19/20 Leeds & West Brom.. So about half haven’t had a 20 goal striker & have got promoted in the last 4 years.

You’re right though about Wells, he isn’t a 20 goal a season player more like 13, but as above shows that’s not a problem.

His goal drought in ‘23 worries me more.

This is a good summary of recent promotions. On reflection, I think a team needs a 20+ per season striker, or two players who score goals in the teens, or a 10-12 goals per season striker with a lot of other goals coming from midfielders or defenders, or some amazing combination of these. Unfortunately I don’t feel City fits into any of these categories 

[mozo]

1 minute ago, pongo88 said:

This is a good summary of recent promotions. On reflection, I think a team needs a 20+ per season striker, or two players who score goals in the teens, or a 10-12 goals per season striker with a lot of other goals coming from midfielders or defenders, or some amazing combination of these. Unfortunately I don’t feel City fits into any of these categories 

We don't even need to fixate on 20. Someone to score 18 would be great.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, pongo88 said:

This is a good summary of recent promotions. On reflection, I think a team needs a 20+ per season striker, or two players who score goals in the teens, or a 10-12 goals per season striker with a lot of other goals coming from midfielders or defenders, or some amazing combination of these. Unfortunately I don’t feel City fits into any of these categories 

That I completely agree with.

For me the issue isn’t a prolific striker, it’s the blend, as I don’t see many goals from our midfielders or at the back.

Weimann mysteriously not rated by some on here & possibly Sykes are the only ones I can see chipping in apart from our strikers.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

That I completely agree with.

For me the issue isn’t a prolific striker, it’s the blend, as I don’t see many goals from our midfielders or at the back.

Weimann mysteriously not rated by some on here & possibly Sykes are the only ones I can see chipping in apart from our strikers.

Knight scored 6 League goals in his first Derby season but this will take time. Always thought Sykes should be aiming at 5-10 if he starts regularly..Atkinson got 2 last season v Preston, not checked how many others etc.

[Dr Balls]

7 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

That I completely agree with.

For me the issue isn’t a prolific striker, it’s the blend, as I don’t see many goals from our midfielders or at the back.

Weimann mysteriously not rated by some on here & possibly Sykes are the only ones I can see chipping in apart from our strikers.

I just don’t think this current set up of 1 in the middle up front and 2 very wide actually works well consistently. The wide forward on the opposite side to the play has to come infield to support the lone striker, while the full backs then have to give the width upfront. It has worked at times last season, but so far this season it hasn’t really clicked, and part of that may be because other teams have sussed how to counteract it by pegging back our full backs. Certainly looked like that in the 2 home games so far.

[Fuber]

9 hours ago, Rob k said:

The club must have known it was highly likely that Scott was going to be leaving this summer. The replacement should have been lined up and already here. 
Im at the point where I’d welcome new owners, i think they would shake the whole place up including the way we recruit. 

I was at that point after the Holden debacle, and have been since.

[JoeAman08]

17 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

I just don’t think this current set up of 1 in the middle up front and 2 very wide actually works well consistently. The wide forward on the opposite side to the play has to come infield to support the lone striker, while the full backs then have to give the width upfront. It has worked at times last season, but so far this season it hasn’t really clicked, and part of that may be because other teams have sussed how to counteract it by pegging back our full backs. Certainly looked like that in the 2 home games so far.

The problem is Cornick and Bell can’t beat anyone once we get it wide to them. Not many strikers will score that is what is feeding them. Add into that two safe midfielders in James and Williams with a more graft than skill midfielder in knight are we surprised we aren’t creating? Fullback aren’t bombing forward anymore either. We are reliant on being stupidly clinical. Another day Wells taps that in and we get a draw. Still would have been the worst team of the two. 
 

Think more potential in the squad but the blend hasn’t been right. Injuries not helped that. Seen some signs with Mehmeti and Roberts. I’d like to see us build on that. James/Williams and Naismith is a must for me. We’ll never be very good with a Williams and James midfield imo. Getting a result like Millwall always possible but they lack the legs to play against most sides imo. Interested in Dickie and Atkinson at some point when RA fit. It was Oxford but Sykes come on and helped overload the right with Tanner and Yeboah end of the game and it looked fun. In high possession games maybe we could have a Naismith Sykes and Knight midfield?
 

Maybe it gets exposed but brave tactics seem to get rewarded in todays football. Bacuna to rb for them yesterday to get another attack minded player on. worked out well for them. and a target man would be perfect foil for players like Bell and Cornick who like to chase less than ideal scenarios. Thought Jutiewicz was a great option for them in that regard. Not for every match for sure and i prefer a nice crisp passing game but we aren’t that good I am afraid. 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by JoeAman08

[Fuber]

18 hours ago, Mendip City said:

Agree. Do we have scouts in Europe I wonder? 

Lost all our scouts when MA left and still recovering aren't we?

He headed his own 'agency' which he took with him to Ipswich, in effect.

[bcfc01]

In answer to the topic title - No.

 

[Davefevs]

36 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

I just don’t think this current set up of 1 in the middle up front and 2 very wide actually works well consistently. The wide forward on the opposite side to the play has to come infield to support the lone striker, while the full backs then have to give the width upfront. It has worked at times last season, but so far this season it hasn’t really clicked, and part of that may be because other teams have sussed how to counteract it by pegging back our full backs. Certainly looked like that in the 2 home games so far.

Roberts “inverting” gives uss a different dimension yesterday.  It dragged there players around too, forces them out of the pressing shape they had first half yesterday.  First half - Bacuna (7) very high on Dickie, Dembele on Tanner, Hogan on Vyner, and Anderson on James.  Pring out if our, half marked by Laird, who is covering Mehmeti too.

Second half - We got Mehmeti then Bell into advanced positions down the left a good half a dozen times, because we’d made them react to something different.

And when the fullbacks are pinned we have to get James away from the centre to open up lanes to Williams and Knight.  We did that quite well at Millwall.  However yesterday, with our passing from Vyner so poor, the only real momentum we got first half was from Williams, finding a bit of space.

Unfortunately the person I replied to didn’t like it.

Joe Williams himself liked my initial tweet though!

[GrahamC]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Roberts “inverting” gives uss a different dimension yesterday.  It dragged there players around too, forces them out of the pressing shape they had first half yesterday.  First half - Bacuna (7) very high on Dickie, Dembele on Tanner, Hogan on Vyner, and Anderson on James.  Pring out if our, half marked by Laird, who is covering Mehmeti too.

Second half - We got Mehmeti then Bell into advanced positions down the left a good half a dozen times, because we’d made them react to something different.

And when the fullbacks are pinned we have to get James away from the centre to open up lanes to Williams and Knight.  We did that quite well at Millwall.  However yesterday, with our passing from Vyner so poor, the only real momentum we got first half was from Williams, finding a bit of space.

Unfortunately the person I replied to didn’t like it.

Joe Williams himself liked my initial tweet though!

For all the good it did us with what then happened with Rob Dickie, I reckon we only subbed Joe because he was on a yellow, just like at Millwall.

Different conversation but we were saying at HT, with Knight-Lebel, Araoye, King & a goalkeeper on the bench you can pretty much predict all our subs (& who for) in advance.

[Rob k]

24 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Roberts “inverting” gives uss a different dimension yesterday.  It dragged there players around too, forces them out of the pressing shape they had first half yesterday.  First half - Bacuna (7) very high on Dickie, Dembele on Tanner, Hogan on Vyner, and Anderson on James.  Pring out if our, half marked by Laird, who is covering Mehmeti too.

Second half - We got Mehmeti then Bell into advanced positions down the left a good half a dozen times, because we’d made them react to something different.

And when the fullbacks are pinned we have to get James away from the centre to open up lanes to Williams and Knight.  We did that quite well at Millwall.  However yesterday, with our passing from Vyner so poor, the only real momentum we got first half was from Williams, finding a bit of space.

Unfortunately the person I replied to didn’t like it.

Joe Williams himself liked my initial tweet though!

@Harry - this is what we were talking about RE Robert’s 

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

For all the good it did us with what then happened with Rob Dickie, I reckon we only subbed Joe because he was on a yellow, just like at Millwall.

Different conversation but we were saying at HT, with Knight-Lebel, Araoye, King & a goalkeeper on the bench you can pretty much predict all our subs (& who for) in advance.

I thought Williams got booked, but nothing on BBC website.  Williams foul / Dickie booked for backchat???  I thought Williams booked just before?

Nothing on Wyscout either.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Roberts “inverting” gives uss a different dimension yesterday.  It dragged there players around too, forces them out of the pressing shape they had first half yesterday.  First half - Bacuna (7) very high on Dickie, Dembele on Tanner, Hogan on Vyner, and Anderson on James.  Pring out if our, half marked by Laird, who is covering Mehmeti too.

Second half - We got Mehmeti then Bell into advanced positions down the left a good half a dozen times, because we’d made them react to something different.

And when the fullbacks are pinned we have to get James away from the centre to open up lanes to Williams and Knight.  We did that quite well at Millwall.  However yesterday, with our passing from Vyner so poor, the only real momentum we got first half was from Williams, finding a bit of space.

Unfortunately the person I replied to didn’t like it.

Joe Williams himself liked my initial tweet though!

 

Roberts did give us a new dimension, albeit too late to impact the outcome of the game.

His home debut and Yeboah's, were the two positives I took from that game. 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Roberts “inverting” gives uss a different dimension yesterday.  It dragged there players around too, forces them out of the pressing shape they had first half yesterday.  First half - Bacuna (7) very high on Dickie, Dembele on Tanner, Hogan on Vyner, and Anderson on James.  Pring out if our, half marked by Laird, who is covering Mehmeti too.

Second half - We got Mehmeti then Bell into advanced positions down the left a good half a dozen times, because we’d made them react to something different.

And when the fullbacks are pinned we have to get James away from the centre to open up lanes to Williams and Knight.  We did that quite well at Millwall.  However yesterday, with our passing from Vyner so poor, the only real momentum we got first half was from Williams, finding a bit of space.

Unfortunately the person I replied to didn’t like it.

Joe Williams himself liked my initial tweet though!

 

54 minutes ago, Rob k said:

@Harry - this is what we were talking about RE Robert’s 

Yes mate. 
@Davefevs Rob and I were chatting about this at the game after Roberts came on. 
It was noticeable that Roberts was coming inside to play in the midfield a bit. 
We have sometimes seen Pring step inside ‘with’ the ball, maybe cut inside his opponent and then drive into midfield with a dribble, but we don’t tend to see Pring come inside to the middle ‘without’ the ball. Roberts was doing this and effectively making an extra man inside sometimes. 
The thing me and Rob K were discussing was whether this is tactical or just simply player choice. 
Does Pearson encourage Roberts to come inside and join, but ask Pring to stay wide? 
Or is it simply that Roberts drifts inside naturally and just wants to join in. And if that is the case (ie Roberts coming in of his own accord), is this potentially something that impacts on team shape and structure? ie when he does this are the other players prepared for this and ready to cover the space he’s vacated? 

If it’s team instruction, then James for example will know he potentially might need to step across a few yards to cover if we lose the ball. If it’s ‘player freedom’ then I hope the other players in the team recognise this if we happen to lose the ball in these situations. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Harry

[robin_unreliant]

4 hours ago, Harry said:

He was the start of the 2018 season I think. 
But he’s not an out and out striker. 
In my post earlier I was referring to Bell basically playing as the lone central striker. It’s that position which I’m referencing. 
Weimann is more of the wide forward type, same as Bell really. Whilst his scoring record has been decent I don’t class him as an out and out striker. 

As above, I’m talking specifically about the central striker. The old number 9 as it were. 
Bell is not one of those. Yes, we had Semenyo and now Conway to compete in that role but in the last 5, now 6th seasons, we’ve recruited Martin, Wells and Cornick. Not good enough in my opinion. 

Martin was a lazy lump at the end of his career. 
Wells, whilst I do actually like him, he’s not really been very good for us, in the main. 
Cornick. Well, jury is out at the moment but it ain’t looking great is it. And again, he’s someone I actually quite like, so that nothing personal against him. 
 

Overall, in the last 5/6 years, we’ve really struggled to recruit in this most important of areas. 

I don't think there is any great mystery about why this is. NP has said repeatedly that goal scorers cost a lot of money. I think I've heard Tinnion saying that this is also the reason we are hoping Conway and Bell will become our strikeforce.

Basically, it seems the club has decided we can't afford what it costs to buy a top striker. So we're shopping on the cheap, with predictable results. Part of this I guess is our FFP problem but also we're back to SL again I suspect.

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, Harry said:

 

Yes mate. 
@Davefevs Rob and I were chatting about this at the game after Roberts came on. 
It was noticeable that Roberts was coming inside to play in the midfield a bit. 
We have sometimes seen Pring step inside ‘with’ the ball, maybe cut inside his opponent and then drive into midfield with a dribble, but we don’t tend to see Pring come inside to the middle ‘without’ the ball. Roberts was doing this and effectively making an extra man inside sometimes. 
The thing me and Rob K were discussing was whether this is tactical or just simply player choice. 
Does Pearson encourage Roberts to come inside and join, but ask Pring to stay wide? 
Or is it simply that Roberts drifts inside naturally and just wants to join in. And of that is the case (ie Roberts coming in of his own accord), is this potentially something that impacts on team shape and structure? ie when he does this are the other players prepared for this and ready to cover the space he’s vacated? 

If it’s team instruction, then James for example will know he potentially might need to step across a few yards to cover if we lose the ball. If it ‘player freedom’ then I hope the other players in the team recognise this if we happen to lose the ball in these situations. 

Dunno Harry is the honest answer.  But even in that Williams clip (1m15s) above you see Roberts drift inside, Williams goes wide, J.James tracks Williams, Sunjic tracks Roberts….basically they’ve swapped their designated men.  But then Roberts “re-verts” and with J.James still tracking Williams (infield) and Williams now on the ball, Sunjic has to follow Roberts, out of the centre.  Neither get tight, a bit unsure of each other’s position, Roberts receives, feeds Mehmeti and we are over the half way line.

Its pretty simple stuff.

I wrote this pre-season:

 

[Cidre Monita]

Recruitment, as in any business or sports team, is the most important activity.

Is Bristol City at the forefront of state-of-the-art recruitment? The answer to that is no.

The club were scared to follow Brentford, and more recently Brighton. The idea now, it seems, is to use Luton as the guiding light to our policy. A lot is made of data analytics, but if all you are doing is using the same data any one of us can sign up to and pay for access, how are you going to gain a competitive advantage?  What analysis models have we developed, with machine learning to manipulate data at speed and volume? Have we analysed successful players from other clubs to understand why they were recruited? Or what did the data of such players look like when they were below 20 years of age? Have we adapted to new visa regulations? Do we maximise the southwest network of fans and scouts who may have the club at their heart and can provide early tip-offs? Do we have specialist recruiters defined by playing position? (You do not ask for a player from a geographical or league perspective, you ask for an LB/CB/GK etc). Do we have anyone who has worked for or scouted Prem standard players? How many scouts do we actually have? Why do we recruit so few players from Prem academies compared to other clubs(not by paying £8m and £25k a week btw),Roberts a recent exception Do we have anyone inside BCFC who has worked for a club that has outperformed their relative budget by innovative recruitment? 

Looking from outside we are recruiting better from the puddle we are looking in. Most of that is from having a clearer input as to player requirements. By fast-tracking youth, we are developing and filtering players faster, but those coaches can only work with the players they are given. We are just looking at essentially L1/L2/Ireland and Scotland. But we are doing nothing innovative and groundbreaking or international. 

Whilst not spending the Scott sale to improve the squad is unfathomable, as a minimum some money needs to be spent on a complete overhaul of the scouting set up, and it is not Tins that needs changing.  It is nowhere near the level required, imagine that same set up preparing for a season in the Prem (if ever we got promoted) then it is clearly not fit for purpose when most squads are 20/30% British talent. It would be dramatically inadequate. To return to Brentford and Brighton, both of those success stories started with innovation in recruitment. There was a reason for that. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Roberts can more naturally play as a CB or LB/LWB which perhaps makes stepping in and out a more natural fit. 

I honestly and mistakenly assumed he had played mode in the back 3 for Derby but he does have quite a lot of experience at CB, if Transfermarkt has any relevance in this area.

Whereas Pring, is more of an LB and or LWB first. Sure he can fill in at CB but it's square pegs, found holes.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous