What's with the gimp mask look?...

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Liverpool. That is the club and origin of Casual. Liverpool adopted (??) fans clothes from European Cities their fans shopped in. The rest including Bristol City fans followed. There were regional nuances but Casual started with Liverpool. 

So, they'll say. I think adidas  - in the very early 70s, not widely available in provincial Britain - was their favoured look in the early days. Man Ut fans claim to be the first casuals, and back then they adopted Fred Perry as a look.

Talk to Rangers/Celtic/Hibs/Hearts fans they'll claim that the term 'casual' was coined up there.

One thing's for sure, as you say, the culture originated in the UK and was exported. 

[lenred]

Removed 

Edited September 5, 2023 by lenred

[lenred]

9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Those lads are not Ultras. They are football lads, Casuals, dressers in the North.  

Liverpool. That is the club and origin of Casual. Liverpool fans adopted (??) clothes from European Cities fans shopped in on their travels to European cup games, creating a culture. The rest including Bristol City fans followed. There were regional nuances but Casual started with Liverpool. 

Definitely Liverpool from everything I’ve read (before my time) - like you say it eminated from their European journeys.   Although I think that particular part may be a moot point / more shopped and robbed! 

[spudski]

25 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Those lads are not Ultras. They are football lads, Casuals, dressers in the North.  

Liverpool. That is the club and origin of Casual. Liverpool fans adopted (??) clothes from European Cities fans shopped in on their travels to European cup games, creating a culture. The rest including Bristol City fans followed. There were regional nuances but Casual started with Liverpool. 

If we are going to be pedantic about it ...I didn't say they were Ultras...I said there are influences by the Ultra culture from abroad. 

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

It tickles me the way people try to mess around with history.  Casual culture was certainly born out of football violence in the 80s maybe 70s but that was before my time.  

That being said plenty of people adopted it as a fashion, without being violent.  However if you're a minibus load, of "casuals" rocking up in an empty car park and blurring out your face, chances are you're there for a little extra something. 

[Cowshed]

48 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

So, they'll say. I think adidas  - in the very early 70s, not widely available in provincial Britain - was their favoured look in the early days. Man Ut fans claim to be the first casuals, and back then they adopted Fred Perry as a look.

Talk to Rangers/Celtic/Hibs/Hearts fans they'll claim that the term 'casual' was coined up there.

One thing's for sure, as you say, the culture originated in the UK and was exported. 

For a period Celtic fans were hostile, sometimes violent towards Casuals as they were seen as a English phenom. 

Aberdeen (ASC -Aberdeen Soccer Casuals) and Hibs were the Scottish first clubs with Casual support. Hibs fans claim they copied the look from Casuals down South.

29 minutes ago, spudski said:

If we are going to be pedantic about it ...I didn't say they were Ultras...I said there are influences by the Ultra culture from abroad. 

In a thread that is chucking Ultra and neo Fascist about its fair to point out those lads are wearing Casual clobber. Their flag also displays the Angry Robin. An emblem created by City lads and associated with City lad culture not that of foreign Ultras.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Cowshed

[spudski]

7 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

For a period Celtic fans were hostile, sometimes violent towards Casuals as they were seen as a English phenom. 

Aberdeen (ASC -Aberdeen Soccer Casuals) and Hibs were the Scottish first clubs with Casual support. . Celtic were one of the last clubs in Scotland to have Casual fans. Hibs fans claim they copied the look from Casuals down South.

In a thread that is chucking Ultra and neo Fascist about its fair to point out those lads are wearing Casual clobber. Their flag also displays the Angry Robin. An emblem created by City lads and associated with City lad culture not that of foreign Ultras.

And it's also worth pointing out that the flag has smack bang in the middle, the image of an ' Ultra/ Casual' wearing the Millie Miglia Google jacket first worn by Italian Ultras. 

Quote..

The ‘Millie Miglia’ jacket was produced in a variety of fabrics, including anti-rip, leather, the experimental dynafil and a water, smog and oil resistant fabric. The indestructible qualities of the jacket didn’t take long to be noticed by football hooligans across Europe. With the hood pulled up and the goggles folded down, and a scarf draped across the mouth the lower face was almost hidden and allowed the wearer to go undetected. When Massimo Osti found out hooligans were using his expensive race car driving jackets to hide their identities when commiting acts of violence, he apparently laughed and remarked “If the hooligans are buying my jackets it means they have good taste!”

Nicknamed the ‘Millie Miglia’ after the vintage car race it once sponsored, the iconic CP Company goggle jacket has been produced continuously in endless variations since 1988 and has come to be loved by fashion designers and conversely by those with a propensity for violence over the years.

 

[soultrader]

1 hour ago, italian dave said:

Is this the place to mention that when we went to Hull the other week we saw a group of local youth at a level crossing near the ground, and one of them was wearing a cardboard box. Tailored too - holes cut out of the sides for arms and all. 

Was he related to paperbag on head man?

[richwwtk]

I don't think that anybody not involved in the Casuals scene gives a monkeys what particular brand or colours they are wasting their money on.

What is clear is that they are dressing and acting like they do because they are desperate to be associated with the perceived 'glamour' of the thugs that essentially destroyed the experience of being a football fan for the rest of us in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

It's a strange obsession, but so long as they stick to looking hard in abandoned car parks then I guess they are not doing anybody any harm.

[soultrader]

 

Legend has it that Stone Island became the most integral brand in the terrace casual style in 1992. After England were eliminated from the group stages of the European Championship in Sweden, the fans apparently looted a Swedish clothing outlet called Genius and brought a bounty of shoplifted ‘Stoney’ back home. This is said to be the event that cemented its place as a pillar of casual culture.

 

https://culted.com/the-rise-of-stone-island-from-hooligan-to-high-fashion/

Edited September 5, 2023 by soultrader

[Oh Louie louie]

2 hours ago, soultrader said:

how do you know it was the same bloke if he had a bag on his head?

Cause he always had a villa shirt on,

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

And it's also worth pointing out that the flag has smack bang in the middle, the image of an ' Ultra/ Casual' wearing the Millie Miglia Google jacket first worn by Italian Ultras. 

Quote..

The ‘Millie Miglia’ jacket was produced in a variety of fabrics, including anti-rip, leather, the experimental dynafil and a water, smog and oil resistant fabric. The indestructible qualities of the jacket didn’t take long to be noticed by football hooligans across Europe. With the hood pulled up and the goggles folded down, and a scarf draped across the mouth the lower face was almost hidden and allowed the wearer to go undetected. When Massimo Osti found out hooligans were using his expensive race car driving jackets to hide their identities when commiting acts of violence, he apparently laughed and remarked “If the hooligans are buying my jackets it means they have good taste!”

Nicknamed the ‘Millie Miglia’ after the vintage car race it once sponsored, the iconic CP Company goggle jacket has been produced continuously in endless variations since 1988 and has come to be loved by fashion designers and conversely by those with a propensity for violence over the years.

 

It is worth pointing out that the Millie has been a heritage jacket for decades for English Casuals. The influence there is Massimo Osti (rip), his clothes be that Arctic Navy, Bonneville, CP, Left hand, Stone Island and his last MA.Strum label were and are an enduring influence of Casual culture here. 

Osti designed clothes English Casuals loved. Osti used military themes in design and fabrics used by astronauts.  

 

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It is worth pointing out that the Millie has been a heritage jacket for decades for English Casuals. The influence there is Massimo Osti (rip), his clothes be that Arctic Navy, Bonneville, CP, Left hand, Stone Island and his last MA.Strum label were and are an enduring influence of Casual culture here. 

Osti designed clothes English Casuals loved. Osti used military themes in design and fabrics used by astronauts.  

 

I know.

[Phileas Fogg]

1 hour ago, Leveller said:

Thank you for explaining my point more clearly than I did. I’m not suggesting these kids are fascists (which I said before) nor do I know if they are actual fighters. However, they are consciously associating themselves with a fighting culture (surely this is hard to deny) and also with Bristol City. I find that unpleasant. I’m aware that some on here disagree and are far more accepting of a certain level of violence.

You are this forum's Ned Flanders

[Red-Robbo]

30 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

For a period Celtic fans were hostile, sometimes violent towards Casuals as they were seen as a English phenom. 

Aberdeen (ASC -Aberdeen Soccer Casuals) and Hibs were the Scottish first clubs with Casual support. Hibs fans claim they copied the look from Casuals down South.

Author Irvine Welsh, of Trainspotting fame, claimed Hibs fans used the term casuals ('cashees') first. He was involved in the scene in the 80s. 

Organised football violence was certainly a thing in Glasgow and Edinburgh before it was in England, because of the sectarian element. Gangs associated with Rangers or Celtic emerged in the Peaky Blinders 20s era. Obviously, the term casual and the fashion obsession wasn't part of it then.

In a sense, "football hooliganism" was invented in Scotland, made a mass culture in England, refined and rebranded in Italy and Holland, and now still lives on as a mass phenomenon in Eastern Europe and Latin America.  Its continued existence here is rather niche. 

[Oh Louie louie]

When we beat Poland 3 0 Mexico 86, can recall afterwards greavsie I think saying the highlight for me was watching the England fans do the conga, led by someone with what appears to be a Sainsbury's bag on his head!

[Cowshed]

23 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Author Irvine Welsh, of Trainspotting fame, claimed Hibs fans used the term casuals ('cashees') first. He was involved in the scene in the 80s. 

Organised football violence was certainly a thing in Glasgow and Edinburgh before it was in England, because of the sectarian element. Gangs associated with Rangers or Celtic emerged in the Peaky Blinders 20s era. Obviously, the term casual and the fashion obsession wasn't part of it then.

In a sense, "football hooliganism" was invented in Scotland, made a mass culture in England, refined and rebranded in Italy and Holland, and now still lives on as a mass phenomenon in Eastern Europe and Latin America.  Its continued existence here is rather niche. 

Mr Welsh fine writer that he is would be using a Tardis to write about Hibs Casuals, who became Casual several years after the Casual scene was established in England.

I was travelling to London (Lillywhites often) on the basis of Face articles with friends who where buying ludicrously expensive Casual trainers they did not know how to pronounce. Its NI-KEE not NICKY". That is DEE - A - DORA ..".

It was not about violence, we just wanted to look good, and be a part of something. As a City lad pointed out in the Face the opposite sex did think a lad in brand new crisp Fila gear was more cool and  handsome than a bloke in fag burned Levi denim jacket and DM's with a dirty scarf. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Cowshed

[Red-Robbo]

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Mr Welsh fine writer that he is would be using a Tardis to write about Hibs Casuals, who became Casual several years after the Casual scene was established in England.

I was travelling to London (Lillywhites often) on the basis of Face articles with friends who where buying ludicrously expensive Casual trainers they did not know how to pronounce. Its NI-KEE not NICKY". That is DEE - A - DORA ..".

It was not about violence, we just wanted to look good, and be a part of something. As a City lad pointed out in the Face the opposite sex did think a lad in brand new crisp Fila gear was more cool and  handsome than a bloke in fag burned Levi denim jacket and DM's with a dirty scarf. 

 

If you read John Lydon's autobiographies, it's clear there was a massive overlap between blokes who knew who attended north London/Essex discos in the mid-70s and wore expensive - back then usually pastel-shaded - clothes, and guys who got involved in bother at football*. These "soul-boys" were often known as casuals at the time, due to the "smart casual" attire they wore out for the night, as opposed to bell-bottom jeans/t-shirt uniform of most club-goers back then. 

Seems to me this is where the term 'casual' first came from, and why it tended to get attached to a football sub-culture. It was, at the start, just a fashion thing.

 

* John "Rambo" Stevens who provided Sex Pistols security was one. Never really liked punk music, a well-known 'face' on Highbury's North Bank. 

[Eddie Hitler]

30 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

In a sense, "football hooliganism" was invented in Scotland

 

I'm adding to the debate rather than gainsaying your statement but football hooliganism and fan violence was there from the earliest days of the modern game.

It's been tribal - my town against your town - from the off in a way that other sports haven't been because of the mass travelling crowds of working class blokes looking for a drink and a bit of excitement for their pennies after a week in a hard labouring job.

The football match was acting as both a focus and an excuse for town Vs town scraps which have always happened.

Bizarrely in Cornwall there were usually mass scraps in the nineteenth and first half of the twentieth century associated with "Tea treats" which were big outdoor picnics organised in the late summer by the Methodist church.

One week Hayle would take on Redruth with the winner meeting Camborne in the final the next week.

Human nature.

 

This is from wiki but I've read and heard similar before:

The first recorded instances of football hooliganism in the modern game allegedly occurred during the 1880s in England, a period when gangs of supporters would intimidate neighbourhoods, in addition to attacking referees, opposing supporters and players. In 1885, after Preston North End beat Aston Villa 5–0 in a friendly match, both teams were pelted with stones, attacked with sticks, punched, kicked and spat at. One Preston player was beaten so severely that he lost consciousness and press reports at the time described the fans as "howling roughs".[9] The following year, Preston fans fought Queen's Park fans in a railway station—the first alleged instance of football hooliganism outside of a match. In 1905, a number of Preston fans were tried for hooliganism, including a "drunk and disorderly" 70-year-old woman, following their match against Blackburn Rovers.

[Red-Robbo]

9 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

I'm adding to the debate rather than gainsaying your statement but football hooliganism and fan violence was there from the earliest days of the modern game.

It's been tribal - my town against your town - from the off in a way that other sports haven't been because of the mass travelling crowds of working class blokes looking for a drink and a bit of excitement for their pennies after a week in a hard labouring job.

The football match was acting as both a focus and an excuse for town Vs town scraps which have always happened.

Bizarrely in Cornwall there were usually mass scraps in the nineteenth and first half of the twentieth century associated with "Tea treats" which were big outdoor picnics organised in the late summer by the Methodist church.

One week Hayle would take on Redruth with the winner meeting Camborne in the final the next week.

Human nature.

 

This is from wiki but I've read and heard similar before:

The first recorded instances of football hooliganism in the modern game allegedly occurred during the 1880s in England, a period when gangs of supporters would intimidate neighbourhoods, in addition to attacking referees, opposing supporters and players. In 1885, after Preston North End beat Aston Villa 5–0 in a friendly match, both teams were pelted with stones, attacked with sticks, punched, kicked and spat at. One Preston player was beaten so severely that he lost consciousness and press reports at the time described the fans as "howling roughs".[9] The following year, Preston fans fought Queen's Park fans in a railway station—the first alleged instance of football hooliganism outside of a match. In 1905, a number of Preston fans were tried for hooliganism, including a "drunk and disorderly" 70-year-old woman, following their match against Blackburn Rovers.

 

For sure, but the word I used was "organised" which is where the Glasgow team 'mobs' were a bit different from unorganised brawling seen in many games all over in the past. The mobs were often linked to either Orange Lodges or Catholic social clubs and so had the organisation to plan 'paggers' well in advance, sometimes liaising with opposite numbers to ensure a decent confrontation. They often took the violence into 'opposition' pubs as well, something of a development in the inter-war years.

 

[Unan]

“Fashion” all wearing an identical outfit, so fashionable /s

They look stupid because it’s 28c and they’re all ballied up, fashion doesn’t mean you have to wear inappropriate clothing, that’s called blindly following what you think is considered ‘ard

Edited September 5, 2023 by Marcus Aurelius

[Super]

In fairness we would all be taking the piss if it was Rovers!

[Leveller]

2 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

You are this forum's Ned Flanders

Hated for being nice. I’ll take that. Apart from me being a rabid atheist of course.

[Zip Nolan]

On 04/09/2023 at 12:15, Oh Louie louie said:

Used to be a guy who went to England games in the 1980s, with a brown paper bag on his head, he kept popping up on camera at Mexico 86

Frank Sidebottom?

[soultrader]

2 hours ago, Super said:

In fairness we would all be taking the piss if it was Rovers!

Funny you mention that ... they have posted on Twitter (or whatever its called now)

 

38 minutes ago, Zip Nolan said:

Frank Sidebottom?

Wasn't he a Man Citeeh fan?

[Sixtyseconds]

2 hours ago, Super said:

In fairness we would all be taking the piss if it was Rovers!

Here is summat to take the piss of and piss on.

Theres a group of fans who used to display a swastika in a pub in Bristol.

Clue not on the side of the fans wearing black.

[City1984]

Speaking of paper head bag man and gimp suits... 

Nowone has ever seen them both one same room 

Just saying 

[Wedontplayinblue]

People moan about the lack of atmosphere, then moan at lads who are likely to create said atmosphere.

[Sir Geoff]

I walked past this lot, minus their gimp masks, on the way to the ground on Saturday. They certainly didn't look like they were there for a sing song. Frankly they looked ridiculous all dressed in 'uniform' jeans and black tops on a boiling hot day.

[City1984]

15 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

I walked past this lot, minus their gimp masks, on the way to the ground on Saturday. They certainly didn't look like they were there for a sing song. Frankly they looked ridiculous all dressed in 'uniform' jeans and black tops on a boiling hot day.

I have often found though that it's this kind of 'out there' fan that really does try to help create an atmosphere.