VAR (part 3965 !)

[petehinton]

So, so, so embarrassing. It really is. 

[Harry]

On 03/10/2023 at 19:46, W-S-M Seagull said:

Am I missing something here? I clearly heard the lino say to give the goal, so therefore not offside. VAR then did their usual check as they do for every goal and they said check complete. So therefore the VAR officials thought the goal had been given and that's why they said "check complete"

It appeared to me that it was the onfield officiating team that messed up due to their poor communication and they were relying upon VAR making the decision for them and that's not what VAR is for.

I’m glad you mention this as it echoes my thoughts and isn’t something I’ve seen mentioned anywhere else. 
The lino clearly says “give it”. 
To those in the stadium, they can see his flag, so they know he’s given offside. 
But to those miles away in the VAR room, they must have only heard “give it” and thus thought they were checking to ensure the goal could be given. 
“Give it” was interpreted as “give the goal”. 
Whilst this was a major balls up by Var I think the lino is getting away lightly here. 
Ultimately it comes down to communication. 
I don’t think the lino communicated very clearly here and I’d be pointing the blame in his direction too - it’s his “give it” shout which I think caused var to think it was a goal. 
The lino seems to be getting away without any criticism here. 
 

End of the day they really ought to speak less, and more concisely -

Ref : “decision is offside - please check for offside”. 
Var : “player is onside. You can award the goal”. 
 

It’s not really that difficult and these audio’s we’ve been hearing since Webb came in are showing the comms up to be a farce. 
 

Another point though - if the ref is to speak to var to concisely give them the onfield decision then he needs to not be hounded by players. As soon as the ref says “we’ll review this one”, no player should be allowed within 10 yards of him, to make sure he can communicate clearly and concisely with the var and not have players shouting in his ear. If they don’t keep their distance, yellow card. 

[View from the Dolman]

Isn't the assistant referee saying give it to the other lino? i.e. to raise the flag for the offside he believed he saw but delayed flagging in line with the VAR game approach.

Assistant Referee 1: "Waiting. Delaying, delaying." (i.e. he thinks there's an offside but he lets the attacking phase of play continue so it can be reviewed if there is a goal)

Goal scored.

Assistant Referee 2: "Give it." (i.e. raise the flag for the offside offence AR1 believes he saw committed)

Why AR2 needs to instruct AR1 to raise his flag though is somewhat beyond me.

Edited October 5, 2023 by View from the Dolman

[Cowshed]

20 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Nah, just make it a manager-only review.

You’ll soon see managers made to look stupid for bad review choices…and they’ll start telling their players to be sure before they claim stuff.  No more “I didn’t see it”.  It’s a bit like Stokes not trusting Broad on an lbw, he knows Broad is always confident and often proved wrong.

In the event of a linesman incorrectly flagging for offside (and ref blowing for offside) and manager reviews correctly, then give a free-kick in the position the receiving player next touched it.  If that’s in the box, then free-kick on the edge of box in line with where they received it.  I don’t like the idea of “playing-on” because it could lead to injury, e.g. keeper decapitates striker through 1 on 1.

Which isn't occurring at other levels. 

Why? To make the game more attractive for tv, not to improve the game. 

[Harry]

58 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

Isn't the assistant referee saying give it to the other lino? i.e. to raise the flag for the offside he believed he saw but delayed flagging in line with the VAR game approach.

Assistant Referee 1: "Waiting. Delaying, delaying." (i.e. he thinks there's an offside but he lets the attacking phase of play continue so it can be reviewed if there is a goal)

Goal scored.

Assistant Referee 2: "Give it." (i.e. raise the flag for the offside offence AR1 believes he saw committed)

Why AR2 needs to instruct AR1 to raise his flag though is somewhat beyond me.

Exactly. What the hell does it have to do with the lino on the opposite side of the pitch? 
His involvement by saying “give it” is the reason the Var thought the goal was given - at least that’s how I’m interpreting it. 
Why does the other lino need to get involved? 
Should’ve been a simple case of lino 1 raising his flag, ref saying to var “no goal - offside”. Var would then know they’re checking for a disallowed goal. 
Lino 2 is getting away with it here. He’s not been mentioned in any dispatches, and I think he’s the one to blame for causing confusion. 

[Midred]

Presumably one of these assistant refs is the other side of the half way line so is out of the picture? 

So much for "clear communication" between the officials on the pitch during the game! It certainly explains some of the decisions we get during our matches. 

[Slacker]

Looking forward to Klopp offering to replay the Champions League final against Spurs now because of that iffy penalty. He is totally losing the plot over this.Can't wait for the next dodgy decision that goes in Liverpool's favour(and it won't take long)and Klopp's reaction after. I actually used to like him quite a lot a couple of years ago.Maybe too long being part of the Liverpool Complex?

Edited October 5, 2023 by Slacker

[Mr Popodopolous]

Aston Villa got a bit lucky with officiating again, interesting bit on ESPN suggests Brighton had significant grounds for disappointment.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/38573537/panel-says-diogo-jota-red-card-liverpool-spurs-was-incorrect

I certainly thought Brentford were wrongly denied at least one penalty at Nottingham Forest and seems the adjudicator agrees.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[1960maaan]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I certainly thought Brentford were wrongly denied at least one penalty at Nottingham Forest and seems the adjudicator agrees.

I enjoy Ref Watch on Sky , here's one of the Pens. Interesting to get an ex Ref's view.

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/12975029/ref-watch-yoanne-wissa-penalty-was-chance-for-var-to-redeem-credibility

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Yep clear penalty for Wissa there, how was that not given??

If you ask Nottingham Forest fans though, a) It's karma for a dive by him last season b)They had so many bad calls in 2021-22 th at they should have gone up automatically and that the play-off final went their way etc..well they got loads of penalties for one a very fortunate 3 pts at AG when Scott clattered with nothing given..small sample size granted.

[downendcity]

The Liverpool offside goal VAR cock up has been put down to human error by the officials.

I thought VAR was introduced to avoid human error by onfield officials.

In the good old days there was regular debate about contentious decisions, but quite often acceptance that the officials were making snap decisions in real time and from just one viewpoint, so there were bound to be incorrect decisions.

With VAR there should be absolutely no excuses. They have the benefit of slo mo replays and from multiple viewpoints, despite which there seem to be as many contentious decisions as when it was just a bloke with a whistle and 2 guys on the line with flags!

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by downendcity

[Markthehorn]

Sounds like another bit of VAR confusion in the Brighton game !

They got given a penalty then it was ruled out for a foul before hand ?

[handsofclay]

I've been trying to locate the other 3,964 parts to this discussion but so far have only found 2,873. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

47 minutes ago, Markthehorn said:

Sounds like another bit of VAR confusion in the Brighton game !

They got given a penalty then it was ruled out for a foul before hand ?

Which side?

3 big calls stated as errors for the weekend were:

1) Aston Villa 2nd goal shouldn't have been given.

2) Ditto their 3rd goal.

3) Konsa should have received his 2nd booking but did not. Was 4-1 at the time so maybe no major deal but put the 3 together.. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

They are fairly graceless and hypocritical Aston Villa fans. I remmeber a few shockers at Championship level in their favour as well as the remarkable goal gifted.

So much so in fact that Alex Neil would make a suitable future manager for them..

"Gladly take it" yet look at the Leeds scenario in 2019.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Markthehorn]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Which side?

3 big calls stated as errors for the weekend were:

1) Aston Villa 2nd goal shouldn't have been given.

2) Ditto their 3rd goal.

3) Konsa should have received his 2nd booking but did not. Was 4-1 at the time so maybe no major deal but put the 3 together.. 

Sorry  meant in their European game tonight !

[Mr Popodopolous]

Penalty yes or no?

Not fully convinced, could be given but could be soft as well. Besides which Aston Villa got some very soft officiating calls v Brighton ie 2 goals and a non called 2nd yellow for Konsa.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

They really are quite entitled, aren't they. Not content with 2 goals that shouldn't have been vs Brighton and Konsa surviving his 2nd yellow.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[downendcity]

20 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Penalty yes or no?

Not fully convinced, could be given but could be soft as well. Besides which Aston Villa got some very soft officiating calls v Brighton ie 2 goals and a non called 2nd yellow for Konsa.

Applying the Bristol City penalty coefficient, that's no penalty and a booking for Watkins for diving!

[Mr Popodopolous]

53 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Applying the Bristol City penalty coefficient, that's no penalty and a booking for Watkins for diving!

...plus a 2 game ban for Bailey Wright or a 4 game ban for Sykes!!

It's pretty light isn't it, the small potential nudge in the back. Not to say that the force of contact should always be decisive but I wouldn't be giving that for anyone. (Albeit MOTD2 seemed to think it was).

I am a bit surprised that fans who benefited from goals 2 and 3 which were wrongly awarded and a 2nd yellow which should have been given just a week ago but wasn't should be shouting too loud about apparent injustices, ie a pretty maybe maybe not call.

Some you win, some you lose..but that's Aston Villa fans for you.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[1960maaan]

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's pretty light isn't it, the small potential nudge in the back. Not to say that the force of contact should always be decisive but I wouldn't be giving that for anyone. (Albeit MOTD2 seemed to think it was).

Just caught up with MotD2, I think this is a Pen.
As he's in the act of shooting I don't think it takes much to knock him off balance. Why I think the Ref decides not to give it is, as he is lining up a clear shot at goal the push is not an attempt to get t the ball. He would have to give a Pen and send him off I believe. Without the push there is a decent chance Watkins scores, or at least gets a shot on target. 

I'll end with some praise for the Ref in the Luton Vs Spurs game. Sending Bissouma off for simulation shouldn't be thought of as brave, but how many would have (and have) just given the FK. I'd like to see more clamp down on it , and even VAR get involved for clear dives. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Just caught up with MotD2, I think this is a Pen.
As he's in the act of shooting I don't think it takes much to knock him off balance. Why I think the Ref decides not to give it is, as he is lining up a clear shot at goal the push is not an attempt to get t the ball. He would have to give a Pen and send him off I believe. Without the push there is a decent chance Watkins scores, or at least gets a shot on target. 

I'll end with some praise for the Ref in the Luton Vs Spurs game. Sending Bissouma off for simulation shouldn't be thought of as brave, but how many would have (and have) just given the FK. I'd like to see more clamp down on it , and even VAR get involved for clear dives. 

Perhaps then. Shot on target defo, goal that can still be blocked or hit post etc.

Wolves have had one awful and one contentious call this season though and Aston Villa have benefited more than not so I suppose it can even out. As in each side due one of the better and worse.

Yes agree on Bissouma. Some retrospective bans or upgrades yellow to red wouldn't go amiss either- whether that would require a rule change especially the yellow upgrade etc.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[1960maaan]

16 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Some retrospective bans or upgrades yellow to red wouldn't go amiss either

The fact he dives while on a Yellow shows they don't even think about consequences . 
I don't see it happening soon, but something needs to be done. Retrospective bans are the only way IMO.

I tend not to go along with the "evens out" theory any more, otherwise we would get a Penalty every game until the end of the season.
With all the bad calls , the Liverpool wrong offside call is the one I feel is easier to explain. Total miscommunication , pure chance and mix up. Where I still get annoyed about the Villa game where the ball is clearly over the line , tech isn't working but VAR sit on their hands. Some are perspective , some they don't want to over rule the Ref and some seem to be complete Brain farts but VAR needs to do much better,

[Markthehorn]

Dermot Gallagher certainly was surprised at a few of the decisions refs (lack of red card for Bruno or Kovacic ) made this weekend which says something as he can be pretty sympathetic to them !

Plus the potential Villa penalty .

Edited October 9, 2023 by Markthehorn

[Mr Popodopolous]

Arsenal seem especially agitated atm.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12717395/Arsenal-war-referees-FUMING-club-compile-list-decisions-gone-against-including-Mateo-Kovacic-avoiding-red-Emirates.html

Getting VAR wrong shouldn't occur but should we try to compile some sort of dossier abour the penalty calls in the last 3 years. Plus some other strange officiating calls.

[phantom]

This is how the Management team for Corinthians in Brazil dealt with a VAR penalty review that wasn't awarded to them 

I'm guessing they may review having the VAR in the same ground after this 

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGe1pMpSW/

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Looks like this penalty will win Veelaaa the game.

They benefit to an unusual degree from VAR it would appear.

They're no Leicester in respect of backstory, hope they collapse somewhat.

[Mr Popodopolous]

It certainly is of a different threshold by a long way to some of those we were denied in 2021-22 and 2022-23.

[Lrrr]

15 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Looks like this penalty will win Veelaaa the game.

They benefit to an unusual degree from VAR it would appear.

They're no Leicester in respect of backstory, hope they collapse somewhat.

He has clipped him in fairness

 

[Super]

19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Looks like this penalty will win Veelaaa the game.

They benefit to an unusual degree from VAR it would appear.

They're no Leicester in respect of backstory, hope they collapse somewhat.

Clear pen to me