Jon and Brian - Time to Shine Boys

[W-S-M Seagull]

23 minutes ago, Calculus said:

Given that the new manager had the advantage of a number of players getting fit that weren't available to Pearson I would say that we've gone slightly backwards 

Yep that's exactly what I think too. Pearson got more out of less and Manning has got less out of more. 

Edited January 14 by W-S-M Seagull

[spudski]

5 hours ago, SydneyCity said:

It’s all about expectation setting really. Nige was very good at saying exactly what was going on - good, bad or average. That’s one of the things most of us liked about him. Liam is very much a repetitive sound bite. When that sound bite aligns with reality, great… but the majority of time so far, it hasn’t.

As others have mentioned you got the sense that Nige was also uniting and moving the whole club in the right direction. I might even overthink this and say he was a good reflection of Bristolians in general. He loved the area, spoke his mind and is a bit anti-authority. Manning doesn’t strike me as having that same skill set or personality.

Despite all of the above, this isn’t a Nige vs Manning post - it’s a very long-winded way of agreeing that JL and BT have messed up. Manning is performing to his remit but has come into a very bad situation that he will struggle to fix. I also don’t blame him for getting himself into this situation - I’d be gutted if any League 1 coach didn’t feel like Bristol City were a step up worth taking.

Really, we needed Nige a bit longer, then the right manager/coach to transition to. He himself said it would likely be someone else who took his work to the next level. I don’t think Manning is the right coach - his football is too predictable for the Championship and undoes a lot of the foundational work that has taken place.

For what it’s worth, I do think we have a 6th to 11th squad. Given the constraints under which it was built, that’s pretty good.

I very much agree with your post. 

Manning's repetitive soundbite bag of coaching phrases, are just jumbled up and churned out on a regular basis. It's not well thought out, considered and often irrelevant. 

I've worked with people like this who use corporate phrasing to cover up inadequacies...to make themselves sound like they know what they are talking about. 

I'm getting LJ and MA type feelings from Manning...no wonder JL likes him, just his sort imo. 

I've said from day one, he'll get away with it when results and performances are good, but when not.....

I really do think the club have bollocked up with this appointment. 

Doesn't fit with our personnel. 

No chance he'll do better with this squad than Nige, as expected by the board in their wisdom. 

And with the likes of experienced professionals like Wells, Weimann, James and King moving on or ' sideways'....then who are you going to replace all of that leadership and experience with in one go? 

It doesn't look great imo. 

 

[cidered abroad]

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

I very much agree with your post. 

Manning's repetitive soundbite bag of coaching phrases, are just jumbled up and churned out on a regular basis. It's not well thought out, considered and often irrelevant. 

I've worked with people like this who use corporate phrasing to cover up inadequacies...to make themselves sound like they know what they are talking about. 

I'm getting LJ and MA type feelings from Manning...no wonder JL likes him, just his sort imo. 

I've said from day one, he'll get away with it when results and performances are good, but when not.....

I really do think the club have bollocked up with this appointment. 

Doesn't fit with our personnel. 

No chance he'll do better with this squad than Nige, as expected by the board in their wisdom. 

And with the likes of experienced professionals like Wells, Weimann, James and King moving on or ' sideways'....then who are you going to replace all of that leadership and experience with in one go? 

It doesn't look great imo. 

 

Gary Owners hit the nail perfectly on the head yesterday after the match.

Preston manager made three changes at half time that completely changed the match. They went to a three attackers and started to control the match.

Manning waited until 75 minutes to make any alterations. By then we're one goal down and PNE in charge.

Managing a football team is totally different to coaching. The coach helps players technical ability.

The manager is the one who controls the tactics and personnel!

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Gary Owners hit the nail perfectly on the head yesterday after the match.

Preston manager made three changes at half time that completely changed the match. They went to a three attackers and started to control the match.

Manning waited until 75 minutes to make any alterations. By then we're one goal down and PNE in charge.

Managing a football team is totally different to coaching. The coach helps players technical ability.

The manager is the one who controls the tactics and personnel!

 

My hypothesis is that Manning does a decent job on analysing teams with all the data etc. I think LJ did too. Spends all week coaching them about how these teams will play. 

But then when those teams change and then Manning, like LJ, doesn't have that instinct to recognise what we need to change to counter their changes.

It seems he needs to wait for the data to come through about the changes the other team has made before we implement our own changes. By that time it's already too late. 

Unfortunately this I feel is where his lack of experience and Championship knowledge comes into it. Basically he's winging it and learning on the job. I'm not saying Pearson was perfect, but him and his team did have that experience and knowledge of the Championship. For example, and I'm hypothesising again, he may know that Lowe would make 3 changes and go more direct. 

I think Manning is a decent coach. But as a manager, I'm not convinced. He doesn't seem to be able to motivate players either at half time or from the sidelines. 

 

[Dr Balls]

3 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

My hypothesis is that Manning does a decent job on analysing teams with all the data etc. I think LJ did too. Spends all week coaching them about how these teams will play. 

But then when those teams change and then Manning, like LJ, doesn't have that instinct to recognise what we need to change to counter their changes.

It seems he needs to wait for the data to come through about the changes the other team has made before we implement our own changes. By that time it's already too late. 

Unfortunately this I feel is where his lack of experience and Championship knowledge comes into it. Basically he's winging it and learning on the job. I'm not saying Pearson was perfect, but him and his team did have that experience and knowledge of the Championship. For example, and I'm hypothesising again, he may know that Lowe would make 3 changes and go more direct. 

I think Manning is a decent coach. But as a manager, I'm not convinced. He doesn't seem to be able to motivate players either at half time or from the sidelines. 

 

The analogy I would give is chess, which is ironic considering that some of our games under Manning have been less exciting than watching chess. The point is that it’s a game of strategy but not just what is immediately in front of you on the board and thinking just one move ahead. It’s working through what your opponent might do in a particular situation and working through their moves as well as considering your own moves. You don’t want a manager or coach to completely overthink it but you do need them to have a firm understanding of tactics.

In football, it’s understanding that the opposition may make substitutions that change how they play and that you may need to react to that. It’s called having a plan B that is practised and rehearsed, because unless you are Manchester City, you can’t expect every other team to bend to your way of playing, and even then some teams have found them out, and they have been unable to adapt (e.g. Villa earlier this season). “Going more direct” is the simplest plan B there is, and I would say for teams that have the personnel to play that way effectively it’s the easiest change to make. Not only do we no longer have that option it would seem given our current players, we also have a coach who doesn’t seem to know how to counteract it. This comes back again to my concerns about Manning and “concrete thinking”. He has a way he wants his teams to play but when it’s not working can he change it effectively? The answer would appear to be no, which is a major concern and perhaps explains in part the very unsuccessful second season at MK Dons, when he was sacked.

[Numero Uno]

5 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I've heard Owers and Ian Gay and now posts like this say Manning needs to be able to bring in his own players. 

 

Sorry but wasn't the change made in order to bring in a head coach who could get more out of our current set of players? So why the f are people speaking about him needing money to spend just to get us back to where we were? 

I have no problem with us bringing in 2-3 in the window as that's what you'd expect in every Jan window. 

My issue is with the excuses people are using for these poor results and performances. 

 

 

 

Yep, keep blaming manager after manager (except your boyfriend Nige, seriously that’s what some of your posting reads like) whilst the people who have caused the major issues for a good five years now just laugh at you in the background.

Some of us know that Jon and Sid were talking shite and that’s why we are holding THEM to account. The alternative is your alternative - genuinely believe this squad is “top end” and blame the manager for not delivering.

To deliver what Jon and Sid have promised requires money. It would have required money if Nige was in charge. How blind would you need to be not to see that?

With the likes of you about Jon and Sid will **** us right over in plain sight whilst fans are still missing the point and blaming managers. Nige ain’t coming back and as bad a decision as it was it’s about time quite a few of our lovesick fans accepted it.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, robinforlife2 said:

Pearson made his own bed. He publicly fuelled a fire with powers that be, by going to the media about his contract and position, with a sort of back me or sack me stance. The board didn't like that one little bit and sacked him. Had he said nothing, carried on about his job, he wouldn't have been fired. He may not have had his contract renewed in the summer, but he played his hand early and knew what he was doing. One could say, he forced their hand on purpose. 

Pearson played his hand after an International break. Before the International break he was asked to 'stand down' (mutual consent).

Would you not be a bit peed off if you knew your bosses were asking you to leave, for no good reason ?

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Pearson played his hand after an International break. Before the International break he was asked to 'stand down' (mutual consent).

Would you not be a bit peed off if you knew your bosses were asking you to leave, for no good reason ?

There are a handful on here denying or not understanding the past. We all have a pretty good idea what REALLY happened. Our issue now is the present and future which is in the hands of Jon and Sid….that’s a very big issue for me. Don’t trust either of them and they need to show people what they are about.

[Sir Geoff]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

There are a handful on here denying or not understanding the past. We all have a pretty good idea what REALLY happened. Our issue now is the present and future which is in the hands of Jon and Sid….that’s a very big issue for me. Don’t trust either of them and they need to show people what they are about.

WSM Seagull ain't one of them. You are mis reading his posts. He/ she is as anti Sid and the Lansdowns as you and I.

[Street red]

1 hour ago, cidered abroad said:

Gary Owners hit the nail perfectly on the head yesterday after the match.

Preston manager made three changes at half time that completely changed the match. They went to a three attackers and started to control the match.

Manning waited until 75 minutes to make any alterations. By then we're one goal down and PNE in charge.

Managing a football team is totally different to coaching. The coach helps players technical ability.

The manager is the one who controls the tactics and personnel!

 

Said exactly this yesterday manning should of made at least a change on 50 minutes just to stop the control Preston had. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

18 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Yep, keep blaming manager after manager (except your boyfriend Nige, seriously that’s what some of your posting reads like) whilst the people who have caused the major issues for a good five years now just laugh at you in the background.

Some of us know that Jon and Sid were talking shite and that’s why we are holding THEM to account. The alternative is your alternative - genuinely believe this squad is “top end” and blame the manager for not delivering.

To deliver what Jon and Sid have promised requires money. It would have required money if Nige was in charge. How blind would you need to be not to see that?

With the likes of you about Jon and Sid will **** us right over in plain sight whilst fans are still missing the point and blaming managers. Nige ain’t coming back and as bad a decision as it was it’s about time quite a few of our lovesick fans accepted it.

Such a bizarre post. What are you, 6 years old? 

If you look back through my posts, you will of course see I've been very critical of Tinnion and Lansdown and Co. 

I think there are plenty of other managers that we could have attracted that would have been able to get the best out of this squad, something Manning hasn't been able to do unfortunately. 

 

Edited January 14 by W-S-M Seagull

[Littlesh*t]

I was a huge Pearson fan and thought he should of being backed and not sacked like many others but in Mannings defence here it was recently stated on one of the games that he has only had a handful of training sessions because of the busy schedule.

 

I'm not saying his coaching will transform this "top 6 squad" into that but he does need a fair chance.

 

Agree with the intention of the post though that we don't have a top 6 side, but we do have a side that will give anyone a tough game and will pick up the odd result. The quality in the final third is lacking massively for creativity.

[W-S-M Seagull]

4 minutes ago, Littlesh*t said:

I was a huge Pearson fan and thought he should of being backed and not sacked like many others but in Mannings defence here it was recently stated on one of the games that he has only had a handful of training sessions because of the busy schedule.

 

I'm not saying his coaching will transform this "top 6 squad" into that but he does need a fair chance.

 

Agree with the intention of the post though that we don't have a top 6 side, but we do have a side that will give anyone a tough game and will pick up the odd result. The quality in the final third is lacking massively for creativity.

Didn't like him trying to use that excuse. He of course had a two week international break when he 1st joined where the players were given limited time off. Not many new managers get that. 

[Sir Geoff]

5 minutes ago, Littlesh*t said:

I was a huge Pearson fan and thought he should of being backed and not sacked like many others but in Mannings defence here it was recently stated on one of the games that he has only had a handful of training sessions because of the busy schedule.

 

I'm not saying his coaching will transform this "top 6 squad" into that but he does need a fair chance.

 

Agree with the intention of the post though that we don't have a top 6 side, but we do have a side that will give anyone a tough game and will pick up the odd result. The quality in the final third is lacking massively for creativity.

Manning told the National press that he only had 9 full training sessions with the squad, since he arrived.

Another lie. He had a full International break at his disposal when he must have put on 2 sessions per day.

2 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Didn't like him trying to use that excuse. He of course had a two week international break when he 1st joined where the players were given limited time off. Not many new managers get that. 

Beat me to it haha

[DaveInSA]

Watford 1-4 Bristol City

Call me old fashioned, but I would have taken a 1-1 draw and then three 1-0 wins (very simplistic I know)

Defensively we have gone backwards under Manning. Teams hit us with a simple routine after our “front foot possession based attacking football” gets us NOWHERE.

Offensively we’ve struggled all season.

I’m judging manning on league performances and position only at the end of Jan.

But.

2 things need to happen and soon.

Manning needs to up his game.

Lansdown needs to leave. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

6 hours ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

The club has lost half a million pound a week, every week, for the last 10 years. 

I very much doubt there is a huge queue of people that desperate to lose their wealth,  at such a spectacular pace.

 

We were losing money hand-over-fist when SL took the reins, I don't think the wealthy/successful think like that/you and me. When Steve took over I fancy he thought to himself "I can do a lot better than the last bloke/blokes" meaning every previous owner in our history. 

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Manning told the National press that he only had 9 full training sessions with the squad, since he arrived.

Another lie. He had a full International break at his disposal when he must have put on 2 sessions per day.

Beat me to it haha

I remember people saying how well coached we looked after 2 weeks of Manning ball training. Yea I never fell for that bs. A duck is a duck to me. 

When Manning joined I had concerns about his integrity. So outright lying to us in attempt to take pressure off of himself isn't a good look. 

Apparently he needs a pre season. Needs money. Just get on with it and work with what he's got in my opinion and deliver on the brief of getting more out of the current squad. 

As I sit here now, I'm struggling to think of any material improvements that we've made under Manning. 

Other new managers are able to get tunes out of their current squad, but Manning requires more training sessions. Says it all that. 

[Numero Uno]

17 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Such a bizarre post. What are you, 6 years old? 

If you look back through my posts, you will of course see I've been very critical of Tinnion and Lansdown and Co. 

I think there are plenty of other managers that we could have attracted that would have been able to get the best out of this squad, something Manning hasn't been able to do unfortunately. 

 

Nah, five. If Jon and Sid are allowed to take this forward without backing the manager properly it’s going to look very messy in 3-4 seasons time imo.

We could easily end up going the way of Ipswich, the difference being that whilst they got new ownership in the likes of @Robbored and others will still be thinking that saying “be careful what you wish for” makes you a bit more intelligent than the average supporter and the Lansdown’s will carry on not being able to sell us within a daft vanity structure…….and we can all look forward to lower league Bristol Derbies every season.

[Mattredrobin]

I have no doubts manning is a quality coach, I'm pleased we have him, I do find the way he talks a little boring ( nothing wrong with that im a boring bastard too ) but he's admitted himself we will get bored of hearing it, but he has a plan and a way of playing, we've moaned for years we don't have an identity of how we play and you can see what he's trying to do. Once he starts getting players in that can play the way he wants I'm sure we will see more consistent results. Attacking mid and a striker for me is what we need. 

[frenchred]

1 minute ago, Mattredrobin said:

I have no doubts manning is a quality coach, I'm pleased we have him, I do find the way he talks a little boring ( nothing wrong with that im a boring bastard too ) but he's admitted himself we will get bored of hearing it, but he has a plan and a way of playing, we've moaned for years we don't have an identity of how we play and you can see what he's trying to do. Once he starts getting players in that can play the way he wants I'm sure we will see more consistent results. Attacking mid and a striker for me is what we need. 

Unfortunately for a plan to work you must have all the building blocks in place, we don't

We don't have the players currently to play his way of football, until he gets them he has to show an adaptability and willing to gradually move, at this moment in time that adaptability is missing

[Numero Uno]

4 minutes ago, Mattredrobin said:

I have no doubts manning is a quality coach, I'm pleased we have him, I do find the way he talks a little boring ( nothing wrong with that im a boring bastard too ) but he's admitted himself we will get bored of hearing it, but he has a plan and a way of playing, we've moaned for years we don't have an identity of how we play and you can see what he's trying to do. Once he starts getting players in that can play the way he wants I'm sure we will see more consistent results. Attacking mid and a striker for me is what we need. 

Mentioning the same word, behaviours, interview after interview is more a case of sounding a bit stupid than boring tbh. Comes across like you’ve got nothing else to say of any substance, especially when repeated four or five times in one interview. However he’s here to deliver results not shine in interviews so that can be glossed over for me…….for now.

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Nah, five. If Jon and Sid are allowed to take this forward without backing the manager properly it’s going to look very messy in 3-4 seasons time imo.

We could easily end up going the way of Ipswich, the difference being that whilst they got new ownership in the likes of @Robbored and others will still be thinking that saying “be careful what you wish for” makes you a bit more intelligent than the average supporter and the Lansdown’s will carry on not being able to sell us within a daft vanity structure…….and we can all look forward to lower league Bristol Derbies every season.

I think we have the same sort of thoughts but coming at this from different angles. I often nod along to your posts in agreement. 

I'm still incredibly pissed off that we didn't spend more in the summer. I posted all summer saying we needed another 2-3 bodies. 

Now looking back, we can confidently say they didn't want to give Pearson money because they didn't want him to succeed here because they wanted him gone. We embarked on an act of self sabotage because of a clash of personalities. I think it's going to take a very long time for me to stop feeling angry about that. 

I went into this season thinking with another 2-3 signings with the Scott money, not even big money signings, just along the lines of buisness we have done, we could have a successful season. 

Those idiots ruined our season and potentially future seasons. These are meant to be men running our football club and they acted like children. 

So whilst I understand what you're saying about spending money now, I have a real reluctance to do so based on the past events. Those running the club said a new manager would be able to get the best out of this squad so stick to that and prove it. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

10 minutes ago, Mattredrobin said:

I have no doubts manning is a quality coach, I'm pleased we have him, I do find the way he talks a little boring ( nothing wrong with that im a boring bastard too ) but he's admitted himself we will get bored of hearing it, but he has a plan and a way of playing, we've moaned for years we don't have an identity of how we play and you can see what he's trying to do. Once he starts getting players in that can play the way he wants I'm sure we will see more consistent results. Attacking mid and a striker for me is what we need. 

Sorry mate but I actually can't see what he's trying to do. 

Yes we play well against teams that like to play but the fact is the Championship is littered with teams like Brum, like Millwall, like Preston. Manning has not shown me anything that makes me think we have a plan to beat these teams. If we can't find a way to beat those teams, we won't ever achieve anything. 

He needs to adapt and work with what he's got rather than relying on the LJ approach of constantly needing new players. 

Edited January 14 by W-S-M Seagull

[Numero Uno]

Just now, W-S-M Seagull said:

I think we have the same sort of thoughts but coming at this from different angles. I often nod along to your posts in agreement. 

I'm still incredibly pissed off that we didn't spend more in the summer. I posted all summer saying we needed another 2-3 bodies. 

Now looking back, we can confidently say they didn't want to give Pearson money because they didn't want him to succeed here because they wanted him gone. We embarked on an act of self sabotage because of a clash of personalities. I think it's going to take a very long time for me to stop feeling angry about that. 

I went into this season thinking with another 2-3 signings with the Scott money, not even big money signings, just along the lines of buisness we have done, we could have a successful season. 

Those idiots ruined our season and potentially future seasons. These are meant to be men running our football club and they acted like children. 

So whilst I understand what you're saying about spending money now, I have a real reluctance to do so based on the past events. Those running the club said a new manager would be able to get the best out of this squad so stick to that and prove it. 

It’s clear Manning is here for a while. Without new players he fails and we could very easily end up Ipswich MK II (pre new ownership, be careful what you wish for lads).

Those running the club have to deliver one way or the other. Whether it’s your way, my way, any of 50 other ways it matters not. For Jon and Sid the next 6-7 months is cock on the block time………imo of course.

[KegCity]

7 hours ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

The club has lost half a million pound a week, every week, for the last 10 years. 

I very much doubt there is a huge queue of people that desperate to lose their wealth,  at such a spectacular pace.

 

Are there any football clubs that aren’t making those losses?

If a mess like Birmingham can get fresh investment we can too.

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

It’s clear Manning is here for a while. Without new players he fails and we could very easily end up Ipswich MK II (pre new ownership, be careful what you wish for lads).

Those running the club have to deliver one way or the other. Whether it’s your way, my way, any of 50 other ways it matters not. For Jon and Sid the next 6-7 months is cock on the block time………imo of course.

I don't know what the solution is. 

I did once make the Mick McCarthy comparison on here with Pearson. 

I'm not convinced that giving Manning lots of money and ripping up the squad and letting our experienced pros leave is the correct way. 

But equally I don't think that doing nothing is the right way either. 

We've somehow got ourselves in a totally avoidable mess where we are kind of at a cross road. 

[Silvio Dante]

Just a couple of points:

- Last week the Telegraph article with LM was published where the “9 full sessions” piece was said (and he also said it in his presser). I said at the time that off a bad result it could easily be seen as an excuse as opposed to a reason. The truth is that he has probably only had 9 sessions not focused on opponents - but guess what? So has every other manager in that time, and he went into MK Dons in a busier schedule and got immediate results because the squad was already set up by Russell Martin to how they wanted to play. He was a continuation candidate. The folly here is both the boards and Liams for trying to change loads mid season

- I think it’s absolutely reasonable to both blame Tinnion/Lansdown for matters and to have doubts if Manning is the right man for the job. Thats where I am. I’m unconvinced by track record to date but more pertinently, I am exceptionally concerned by the lack of adaptability and game management he’s shown since he’s been here. I don’t think that’s unreasonable and it’s not saying bring Pearson back. What it is saying is maybe there were more suitable candidates without ripping it up and starting again?

[Numero Uno]

7 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I don't know what the solution is. 

I did once make the Mick McCarthy comparison on here with Pearson. 

I'm not convinced that giving Manning lots of money and ripping up the squad and letting our experienced pros leave is the correct way. 

But equally I don't think that doing nothing is the right way either. 

We've somehow got ourselves in a totally avoidable mess where we are kind of at a cross road. 

Yep, and now is the time for the Director of Football to show us the qualities he has that made him a shoe-in for the job…………

That is where I start to get very concerned!!

[DaveInSA]

31 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Nah, five. If Jon and Sid are allowed to take this forward without backing the manager properly it’s going to look very messy in 3-4 seasons time imo.

We could easily end up going the way of Ipswich, the difference being that whilst they got new ownership in the likes of @Robbored and others will still be thinking that saying “be careful what you wish for” makes you a bit more intelligent than the average supporter and the Lansdown’s will carry on not being able to sell us within a daft vanity structure…….and we can all look forward to lower league Bristol Derbies every season.

I think your 3-4 seasons is ambitious. Next season we will be in a relegation dog fight. In what no doubt will be (according to some posters on here) the toughest championship ever.

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Yep, and now is the time for the Director of Football to show us the qualities he has that made him a shoe-in for the job…………

That is where I start to get very concerned!!

I don't want to worry you even more, but it seems he's being lined up to be CEO one day...