All my dreams come true… (Presser) - Merged

[Street red]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

"Its not going to be an over night thing where you can parachute in to somewhere and bish bash bosh everything totally changes and you start winning every week and you go from mid table to top 6, it doesn't happen over night, it takes time" 

It was their bloody brief to come in and change things quickly! I'm not buying into another 'project'

It was just another excuse to get him in. The Johnson reign all over again does it excite me next for next season not a chance. I think we will lose valuable experience and thats what's kept us afloat in this league.

[RED4LIFE]

22 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

 

So as a fan of Bristol City I'm not sure why my pre season expectations should now be invalid because we decided to bring a new guy in?

 

You've answered your own question there.

'As a fan' your pre-season expectations are seen through eyes that don't, and will never, have all the information at hand about the club, players and manager to make a fully informed opinion with all the facts laid out in front of you. For that reason alone, how the hell can you think any argument you make about the way things have gone  relating to your pre-season thoughts have any relevance?

The club, for whatever reason, have decided half way through the season to go for a different plan, manager and style of playing, yet you still think that your (personal) pre-season expectations should be met. That to me is utterly insane. To expect the same or better results with such turmoil is idiotic. That isn't just aimed at you but the board too, although I don't think the board believed a word they said either which is reprehensible l.

Forget all the bullshit spouted by JL and Tinnion about top 6. It was blatantly obvious the issue was the boards relationship with Pearson had deteriorated to a point of no return which is why he got sacked. A blind man could see that and, admittedly, I was fuming over it but, to use the top 6 excuse to bolster your opinion about how we should do is naive at best.

[Street red]

17 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Do you know what cognitive load theory is? Although I have qualifications in psychology directly relating to football I don't.   

An answer to how do you assess? By players performances and actions, and talking to them. Frequently because of differing learning styles individuals will not have internalised all information, some will have misunderstood,  and some will take information literally as it was presented and that leads to challenges.

In any group of eleven, or twenty plus (a squad) it should be expected that people will display differing learning styles and difficulties like ADHD. 

So, in order to promote deeper understanding information needs to be in differing forms, and repeated, repetition is the key to deep learning and competency. Periodized and repetitious education on task beats episodic jumping from task to task. 

When was football turned into such a deep thought process it's a simple game not rocket science.

[Davefevs]

54 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

It’s about communication (again) isn’t it? We all know we were sold a pup and we’re in a “rebuild” but making the point every time about how LM was stated as getting us top six is kind of counter productive. I’m totally unconvinced he’s the right man but I’m not judging that on not getting us top six, I’m judging it on what he has produced to date.

The Hogg conference today gave a lot more acknowledgment than Liams have that things haven’t been perfect. It was about an 80% similar message but the communication was far better and the tweaks were a good acknowledgment of where concerns lie.

Notably he didn’t overegg things which Liam can do - key point here is Hogg pointed to a change at HT against Plymouth when Liam said we went back four after 25 (we didn’t, Pring dropped back more to help Roberts but it wasn’t a four). More honest and less bullshit bingo moving forward can only help things.

But it’s all about communication. And stating “the board said top six” helps nobody five months on and actually lessens the valid criticism of what Liam has produced.

We’ve discussed a fair bit of this offline.  I was happy to hear Hoggy’s version, is the best way I can put it!

[Mendip City]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I can. All we've got to go on is what was said and numerous interviews by numerous people said that the expectation was for us to improve this season. Other wise why make the change (JL) 

When people say "Jon didn't actually mean what he said" makes me piss myself as they are just making things up to suit their agenda. 

We were just outside the play offs. We didn't bring these in to be happy to sit in mid table. 

Yes completely agree and if JL/BT did say something different at interview to what they’d said in public, LM should have spotted the bus he was thrown under and done a runner. He didn’t. 

[Natchfever]

40 minutes ago, Sandhurst Red said:

More nonsense spouted by yourself. For what it is worth, I log-in most days. Not all of us are so attention seeking as yourself and feel the need to comment (negatively) on every little thing. 

You seem to despise the new boss, team, philosophy, owners, burger van, tea lady - anything connected to this club. Would it not make sense to go and do/support something else. Negativity breeds negativity and though a forum should be about openly challenging views, the biased agenda you have is just depressing. 

Put on ignore then for your own wellbeing.

[W-S-M Seagull]

15 minutes ago, RED4LIFE said:

 That to me is utterly insane. To expect the same or better results with such turmoil is idiotic.

but, to use the top 6 excuse to bolster your opinion about how we should do is naive at best.

Thats some strong language youve used there which im not sure is helpful.

Why should I as a fan of Bristol City accept that we've gone backwards because of the decisions they have made? Why should I not hold them account because my pre season expectations of improvement have not been met? 

Why should I just sit in a corner and remain silent? 

[Natchfever]

34 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Do you know what cognitive load theory is? Although I have qualifications in psychology directly relating to football I don't.   

An answer to how do you assess? By players performances and actions, and talking to them. Frequently because of differing learning styles individuals will not have internalised all information, some will have misunderstood,  and some will take information literally as it was presented and that leads to challenges.

In any group of eleven, or twenty plus (a squad) it should be expected that people will display differing learning styles and difficulties like ADHD. 

So, in order to promote deeper understanding information needs to be in differing forms, and repeated, repetition is the key to deep learning and competency. Periodized and repetitious education on task beats episodic jumping from task to task. 

Do you see evidence that Manning and Hogg are adopting the approach(es) outlined in your final paragraph ?

Some of Mannings interviews appear to indicate that hes frustrated players dont "get it" .

[Cowshed]

16 minutes ago, Street red said:

When was football turned into such a deep thought process it's a simple game not rocket science.

Football has always been a thought process. Football is an overtly psychological sport. We choose our mindset, to fight or flight or work hard, or not, to be open or closed, to look at challenges as exciting, or threats. Losers go for the latter.  

Understanding that we all learn differently has been part of football for decades. The tools we used were blackboards, and white boards and cones, now we have more tools and understanding to aid what we do. 

 

[mozo]

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I can. All we've got to go on is what was said and numerous interviews by numerous people said that the expectation was for us to improve this season. Other wise why make the change (JL) 

When people say "Jon didn't actually mean what he said" makes me piss myself as they are just making things up to suit their agenda. 

We were just outside the play offs. We didn't bring these in to be happy to sit in mid table. 

We have a choice to make: either a) we live in the fantasy fairy land that the board were in when they tried to PR the Nige sacking, or b) we live in the real world.

I choose reality. That means, like it or not, that top 6 was the stretch target set for Manning and Hogg, but definitely not the strict brief. I'll bet the words 'build something' we're discussed behind the scenes.

So, because I reject the Jon L fairyland, I can't sit here and point the finger at Manning and say 'Hey! You failed at achieving top 6! Get out."

And by the way, I have lots of respect and appreciation for Nige and I opposed the sacking. But do I think he was about to achieve top 6 with this squad this season? No chance.

I'm giving Manning and Hogg benefit of the doubt and some time to do their thing. Not years and years, but definitely next season. 

Come on board mate, it might be more enjoyable with you on the ride 

Edited April 4 by mozo

[Sir Geoff]

Ha, thought he was the bloke with the beard. Just shows how much attention I've been paying since  November.

[W-S-M Seagull]

2 minutes ago, mozo said:

We have a choice to make: either a) we live in the fantasy fairy land that the board were in when they tried to PR the Nige sacking, or b) we live in the real world.

I choose reality. That means, like it or not, that top 6 was the stretch target set for Manning and Hogg, but definitely not the strict brief. I'll bet the words 'build something' we're discussed behind the scenes.

So, because I reject the Jon L fairyland, I can't sit here and point the finger at Manning and say 'Hey! You failed at achieving top 6! Get out."

And by the way, I have lots of respect and appreciation for Nige and I opposed the sacking. But do I think he was about to achieve top 6 with this squad this season? No chance.

I'm giving Manning and Hogg benefit of the doubt and some time to do their thing. Not years and years, but definitely next season. 

Come on board mate, it might be more enjoyable with you in the ride 

I choose reality too. 

And in reality we should be doing better than we are doing. 

 

[Cowshed]

11 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

Do you see evidence that Manning and Hogg are adopting the approach(es) outlined in your final paragraph ?

Some of Mannings interviews appear to indicate that hes frustrated players dont "get it" .

I know that BCFC from the academy up to the first team use approaches I outlined. I have had family members at BCFC in the academy, and a ex player in the U18's v Man City this week. It is basic football fundamental approach. 

Being frustrated when players don't get it is normal ... I do not think its beneficial to put that frustration in public. My brilliant coaching mentor at the FA said to me  " Look closer to home, is it their fault or yours, review what you do and assess". 

 

[And Its Smith]

24 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Thats some strong language youve used there which im not sure is helpful.

Why should I as a fan of Bristol City accept that we've gone backwards because of the decisions they have made? Why should I not hold them account because my pre season expectations of improvement have not been met? 

Why should I just sit in a corner and remain silent? 

How are you holding them to account by posting on a forum?

[Natchfever]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

I know that BCFC from the academy up to the first team use approaches I outlined. I have had family members at BCFC in the academy, and a ex player in the U18's v Man City this week. It is basic football fundamental approach. 

Being frustrated when players don't get it is normal ... I do not think its beneficial to put that frustration in public. My brilliant coaching mentor at the FA said to me  " Look closer to home, is it their fault or yours, review what you do and assess". 

 

Thanks.

 

[mozo]

5 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I choose reality too. 

And in reality we should be doing better than we are doing. 

 

We agree. High five!

We probably disagree re how much better we should be doing, but that fine.

[BCFC31]

I found hog just as boring and liam manning !! Couldn't sit through the whole interview very mono tone not much emotion or charisma atall not for me !

[Davefevs]

28 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I choose reality too. 

And in reality we should be doing better than we are doing. 

 

We should. Ideally we’d be sat here with 6 games to go still think there’s a chance, if the stars aligned, etc

But, playoffs as @mozo was a “stretch-target” at the point LM took over.

Had Nige been backed in August, who knows…would’ve given us a better chance I’m sure, but even then I think it would’ve been a push.

It is important LM uses these 6 matches to build momentum for the summer recruitment /  next season.  Selfishly I’d like him to remove my “doubts” too, but I’m not his concern.

Two wins, whatever we think, have given him a little up-tick, it’s up to him to use that now.

[Robbored]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Do you know what cognitive load theory is? Although I have qualifications in psychology directly relating to football I don't.   

An answer to how do you assess? By players performances and actions, and talking to them. Frequently because of differing learning styles individuals will not have internalised all information, some will have misunderstood,  and some will take information literally as it was presented and that leads to 

So, in order to promote deeper understanding information needs to be in differing forms, and repeated, repetition is the key to deep learning and competency. Periodized and repetitious education on task beats episodic jumping from task to task. 

From memory CLT is in simple terms is amount of information an active memory can process in a given time. It’s particularly helpful  in avoiding overloading someone who might struggle to retain info.

iirc there were/are three different types of CLT but I can’t recall what they are………

In my former profession I often adopted a CBT approach which was extremely helpful particularly with those who had a history of anxiety and depression. Essentially I/we were trying to encourage them that by using CBT on themselves they could cope far more comfortably in their day to day lives.

[TDarwall]

I think Saturday could be the proverbial punch on the nose. You'd think Sunderland will be desperate to atone for the Blackburn game 

[Dastardly and Muttley]

I’m 100% with @W-S-M Seagull on this, and am probably Manning’s harshest critic even with Seagull included.

The decision to shift from NP to LM was definitely done with the aim of improving this season.

Also, with the return of players from injury, you’d have expected any half-competent manager and coaching staff to have improved us.

That’s not what we’ve seen, though. We’ve seen inconsistency and the most boring football served up since Pulis. Next season can’t come quick enough, if we could jump to his sacking in October right now, I would. Just hope he’s not given the nest egg to blow in the summer.

[RED4LIFE]

49 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Thats some strong language youve used there which im not sure is helpful.

Why should I as a fan of Bristol City accept that we've gone backwards because of the decisions they have made? Why should I not hold them account because my pre season expectations of improvement have not been met? 

Why should I just sit in a corner and remain silent? 

Strong language? Not in my opinion and trying to be helpful wasn't the point of my post.

The point I wa trying, unsuccessfully as is happens, to make was your pre-season expectations mean nothing to anybody at the club. They are based only on your opinion or hopes for how things should pan out. They are literally pointless without all the facts to hand. 

You are more than welcome to have any opinion you want but it means nothing. That isn't a slur on you personally either as everyone can have their own opinions. Not everyone can have their own facts though and you are basing your points on your thoughts alone with no basis around them. Essentially a straw man's argument. 

[RedRock]

We need to move on. Nige ain’t coming back. 

Was a Manning ‘outer’ a couple of weeks back as I couldn’t see what he was trying to do with the team, the results/performances were diabolical and was baffled how the ‘brilliant’ January transfer period could be regarded as anything other than a total failure on/off the pitch. 

The last two results though have placed us in a better position, so it’s pretty clear now he will be with us until at least next October. 

So, our choice is to continue to snipe away and criticise everything the management team do, or support - passively or otherwise. I’m opting for the latter given that it is the one most likely to result in positive performances on the pitch. You reds.
 

 

[IAmNick]

5 minutes ago, Robbored said:

From memory CLT is in simple terms is amount of information an active memory can process in a given time. It’s particularly helpful  in avoiding overloading someone who might struggle to retain info.

iirc there were/are three different types of CLT but I can’t recall what they are………

In my former profession I often adopted a CBT approach which was extremely helpful particularly with those who had a history of anxiety and depression. Essentially I/we were trying to encourage them that by using CBT on themselves they could cope far more comfortably in their day to day lives.

Intrinsic, extrinsic, and germane.

We do it at work too, and I work in tech. It's everywhere these days - It's important to understand and people who dismiss it and similar are foolish imo. City will get left behind if they don't pay attention to it.

The concepts have been known for decades, centuries even. They're just put into more understandable language now so the players will be able to understand and help themselves as much as anything.

Edited April 4 by IAmNick

[mozo]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We should. Ideally we’d be sat here with 6 games to go still think there’s a chance, if the stars aligned, etc

But, playoffs as @mozo was a “stretch-target” at the point LM took over.

Had Nige been backed in August, who knows…would’ve given us a better chance I’m sure, but even then I think it would’ve been a push.

It is important LM uses these 6 matches to build momentum for the summer recruitment /  next season.  Selfishly I’d like him to remove my “doubts” too, but I’m not his concern.

Two wins, whatever we think, have given him a little up-tick, it’s up to him to use that now.

I think many of us, definitely including you, me and WSM would love to wander in to the alternative universe in which Nige was backed for 2/3 quality signings (of his choosing)! I wonder where we are in that world!

In reality, we're going to get exactly that but with Manning in charge. You can't choose your universe!

[RED4LIFE]

43 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I choose reality too. 

And in reality we should be doing better than we are doing. 

 

Why should we be doing better?

We lost 2 of our best players without properly replacing them, reduced the wage bill at the same time, then replaced a manager and completely changed the playing style. With all that happening why do you think we should be doing better?

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, mozo said:

I think many of us, definitely including you, me and WSM would love to wander in to the alternative universe in which Nige was backed for 2/3 quality signings (of his choosing)! I wonder where we are in that world!

In reality, we're going to get exactly that but with Manning in charge. You can't choose your universe!

I wanted them with what we had in August!!!

The universe will never look the same, now!

[mozo]

7 minutes ago, TDarwall said:

I think Saturday could be the proverbial punch on the nose. You'd think Sunderland will be desperate to atone for the Blackburn game 

I think we should be prepared for a tough game and not expect to run wings round them!

6 minutes ago, Dastardly and Muttley said:

I’m 100% with @W-S-M Seagull on this, and am probably Manning’s harshest critic even with Seagull included.

The decision to shift from NP to LM was definitely done with the aim of improving this season.

Also, with the return of players from injury, you’d have expected any half-competent manager and coaching staff to have improved us.

That’s not what we’ve seen, though. We’ve seen inconsistency and the most boring football served up since Pulis. Next season can’t come quick enough, if we could jump to his sacking in October right now, I would. Just hope he’s not given the nest egg to blow in the summer.

Obvs I disagree with lots of that, but you talk about improvement being the target, well that's still in our gift this season. I don't think we can catch up with 10th but if we did, that's a decent season.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, RED4LIFE said:

Why should we be doing better?

We lost 2 of our best players without properly replacing them, reduced the wage bill at the same time, then replaced a manager and completely changed the playing style. With all that happening why do you think we should be doing better?

Because that was the reason for changing.  It was expected LM would give us something akin to “hitting the ground running”, because he was the difference maker.
 

Had Nige had 2 or 3 more points, they’d wouldn’t have sacked him, they’d have had to tolerate him.

Edited April 4 by Davefevs

[Padlad]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Do you know what cognitive load theory is? Although I have qualifications in psychology directly relating to football I don't.   

An answer to how do you assess? By players performances and actions, and talking to them. Frequently because of differing learning styles individuals will not have internalised all information, some will have misunderstood,  and some will take information literally as it was presented and that leads to challenges.

In any group of eleven, or twenty plus (a squad) it should be expected that people will display differing learning styles and difficulties like ADHD. 

So, in order to promote deeper understanding information needs to be in differing forms, and repeated, repetition is the key to deep learning and competency. Periodized and repetitious education on task beats episodic jumping from task to task. 

I do, yes this my point, you can only hold around 6-7 new bits of new information in your head simultaneously. Therefore a pre match meeting is no guarantee that players have got the instructions. So a well drilled team has probably had a lot of repetition of instructions and opportunities to commit to long term memory.