General Election...

[hilltop red]

Exactly Hill Top, don't worry about the "right on" attitude of students like Percy, they are an absoloute bloody joke, they don't live in the real world.

They sit in the Nelson Mandela bar with all their scruffy tax dodging mates and discuss the rights and wrongs of the world without having lived in it.

Immigration in the numbers being thrown about will kill this country, I work with a guy who has an Ethiopian girlfriend, she has been housed, given a place at College and has been given a wage to live on, she passed through about 10 countries to get here, she is here because she didn't want to do her National service. Her aim now she is here, is to save up and get her brother over here so we can house him, send him to college and give him free handouts. Her flat mate has been turned down once already but still she is here and in all likelihood will go missing in London when she is finally told she can no longer stay here.

My dad being a pensioner and who has lived here all his life could have done with the extra money we are paying these scroungers to put in his pocket instead of those who come here for an easy life, he deserves it because he has contributed to this country for 50 years and deserves to retire and live comfortably, he's still paying taxes now on his pension and through VAT etc.

If we needed people to do low paid jobs then I can think of a million that are currently out of work and sitting on their arses picking up their giros instead of Johnny Foreigner getting them. Perhaps after these British citizens have filled those jobs and there is work still available we can look elsewhere.

Until then keep Britain - BRITISH.

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we should follow the lead of the australians. they don let hardley anybody in because they want to perserve there national identity, and also becauaes of large amounts of inhabitle land. they have a population of just 20 million, and are a leading economy and a major player on the world stage, we do not need polish bus drivers and balken crime lords to prop up are econmomy, maybe if labour kept jobs in this country in stead of outsourcing, and maybe if this island had its own ship building industry we could find jobs for all those people in non jobs ( have a look in the jobs section of papers and you will see what i mean)

also i would rather see this country work with the lands we discoverd and built, then work with europeans that had tried and failed to invade and intimidate (Sp) us. torys will be the starting point for this but they need the chance to do it, its no good giving tony 'goes with the wind' blair another chance. And who knows what gordan brown will do if he comes to power. As his policies are unknown. I ask you all to vote tories to get this country heading towards the respected, don't (Am I naughty or what!) us off britain we used to be. sadly i time i was not in this world, and i hope we will soon be.

We must also vote no to the eu. If we don't bang goes are foriegn policy, borders and England. The eu is a communist dream don't be fooled again by blair. they also want us in the next olympics to wave the blue flag with stars instead of the worthy union jack

[The Batman]

If we don't bang goes are foriegn policy, borders and England. The eu is a communist dream don't be fooled again by blair. they also want us in the next olympics to wave the blue flag with stars instead of the worthy union jack

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you can't say that, you'll be accused of being racist. just because England is better than everywhere else...

i totally agree with you mate. didn't some EU politician say that the last olympics was a success for Europe because they got more medals than the USA??

what crap.... so when the World Cup 2006 comes around, does that mean we have to support the European teams??? i don't wanna support the krauts and the frogs and any other foreigner that comes along.

[Coin-op]

Thanks cityrocker...best analysis yet

I'll have to admit that I had not thought back to the Thatcher years and all the unemployment, strikes, etc...I was only a nipper. Now having thought of that definately rules out the Conservatives. Every article I read on the Lib Dems makes me cringe, and the Labour posters make fun out of the other parties rather than telling me why I should vote for them.

[reddevil]

Just a query on immigration that hopefully some of you can answer which has some relevance to BCFC.

I believe that Leroy Lita was born in the Conga and only came to the UK when he was 6 to live with his extended family.

I'm guessing that those people comtemplating voting BNP would be happy to "send him back", after all he is taking the job of a "proper" Bristish citizen., maybe Peter Beadle, Steve Jones or Steve Torpey could do it instead??

Just like to say this is not my view, just illustrates one of the many flaws in the arguement for voting BNP.

There is also one very strong arguement FOR immigration. We live in a country with a decling birth rate and an ever aging population. I beleive that by the mid 21st century the EU will need around 50 million additional migrant workers to fill this gap.

If any of you have a conclusive arguement against this I would be glad to hear it

[slartibartfast]

Forget the "inforned" columnists, journos, wise men et al.

When did you last see a poor bookie?

1/12 on Labour forming then next government.

It's like football, you know sometimes your team is crap, but you don't go down the Gas hoping they're better, no, your stuck with your inherrant party!

COME ON YOU REDS!

[screech]

Where does the BNP say that it will send British citizens back to their original countries, they are against bringing more in to the country who don't have anything to offer us, what's wrong with that?

There are people in this country that need jobs first and they should be taking them before we need to import people. We have pensioners protesting about their standard of living, thousands of homeless on the streets across the country, kids that can't get on the council list for homes because unless your a single mum or an immigrant you'll be put to the back of the list. I'm sorry but I'm afraid your talking a load of misinformed rubbish on the send them all back line, do you want a job in the whiter than white BBC?

The BNP are there because the gay Labour government have made big mistakes with their positive discrimination stance, why is it a police force can advertise for Police officers of an Asian background and not be declared prejudiced. The gay Labour party have increased tensions in their short time in government.

The argument for immigration is a tired out of date one, I remember when we were all supposed to be in paperless offices and everyone would have loads of spare time on their hands, the reality is quite the opposite and it looks like we will be working til we're 70 soon. I fear for this country if another Labour government get in, the war in Iraq has made us top of the terrorist with the Americans, lets bring some of those imigrants in shall we, Blunkett already let lots of immigrants in with fake passports, your living on another planet if you think this country can sustain millions of extra people.

We are a country who had plenty of skilled people here, pity that we sold off our Steel, Ship building, car manufacturing, coal industry etc.

Do you honestly believe we can't get the staff to fill those jobs? Perhaps if the pay was right in the first place they might take them.

Before the tired old argument calling me racist scum comes out, far from it, I'm all for people who come to this country who can speak English want to work and mix with the us, what I am against is minority groups trying to change the way this country runs.

[lukejones2]

Don't worry, someone else (the year above) got arrested for doing the Nazi salute in Auschwitz and he is off to do some history of politics course at Oxford Brookes.

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right... well thats a great reason not to worry.

This just shows how any fool can get into our universities (or polytechnics as oxford brookes essentially is).

[Percy Parrot]

Exactly Hill Top, don't worry about the "right on" attitude of students like Percy, they are an absoloute bloody joke, they don't live in the real world.

They sit in the Nelson Mandela bar with all their scruffy tax dodging mates and discuss the rights and wrongs of the world without having lived in it.

Immigration in the numbers being thrown about will kill this country, I work with a guy who has an Ethiopian girlfriend, she has been housed, given a place at College and has been given a wage to live on, she passed through about 10 countries to get here, she is here because she didn't want to do her National service. Her aim now she is here, is to save up and get her brother over here so we can house him, send him to college and give him free handouts. Her flat mate has been turned down once already but still she is here and in all likelihood will go missing in London when she is finally told she can no longer stay here.

My dad being a pensioner and who has lived here all his life could have done with the extra money we are paying these scroungers to put in his pocket instead of those who come here for an easy life, he deserves it because he has contributed to this country for 50 years and deserves to retire and live comfortably, he's still paying taxes now on his pension and through VAT etc.

If we needed people to do low paid jobs then I can think of a million that are currently out of work and sitting on their arses picking up their giros instead of Johnny Foreigner getting them. Perhaps after these British citizens have filled those jobs and there is work still available we can look elsewhere.

Until then keep Britain - BRITISH.

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don't live in the real world? same one as you I think- don't know where you live but probably have a more informed view on 'real world' having grown up in a 99% white area and now living in south London.

Keep Britain British!?! What exactly is British? Think you'll probably find that you come from French or German family somewhere.

Your argument seems pretty much entirely based on anecdotes which is the same card the BNP play because it scares people. Such anecdotes make good stories in the pub or in the Mail, but do not paint an accurate picture. May I also point out to you the story of the man who came into this country, set up a low-budget airline and created thousands of jobs in this country. Stelios.

Think Charles Wardle made good points on this.

I have said that to me it appears that the system does need to be altered, restrictions must be tough. BUT I think too many people, including a few on here, have fallen into the trap of being scared by what you read and that the Tory policy on this issue is rubbish.

[lukejones2]

Percy - I think its a ver bold statement to claim to live more in the real world than somebody whose background you do not know....

But, aside frm that, I agree with what you say. It is important that we all realise there are genuine reasons for seome people to be here and that some people contribute to our society despite not being Bristish!

Unfortunately, there are a growing number of immigrants here who don't contribute and unfortunately this is what gives people clouded perceptions.

We should not have a quota - it makes no logical sense. What we should have is a more closely guarded border meaning we are aware of all immigrants, and a more robust system to weed out those who do not genuinely need our help or have the ability to contribute to our economy.

[The Batman]

Percy - I think its a ver bold statement to claim to live more in the real world than somebody whose background you do not know....

But, aside frm that, I agree with what you say.  It is important that we all realise there are genuine reasons for seome people to be here and that some people contribute to our society despite not being Bristish!

Unfortunately, there are a growing number of immigrants here who don't contribute and unfortunately this is what gives people clouded perceptions. 

We should not have a quota - it makes no logical sense.  What we should have is a more closely guarded border meaning we are aware of all immigrants, and a more robust system to weed out those who do not genuinely need our help or have the ability to contribute to our economy.

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I was about to say something very similar.

Why should they use the British NHS / send their kids to British schools if they don't pay tax / national insurance etc.

The NHS is a problem, and it don't help the masses of people that come over here and exploit it.

If they did become full blown citizens here, that contribute to Britain {quote Lukejones above} then they can do what they want.

Course, there is the arguement that they take all the jobs from people who have lived here all their life. There are 2 sides of the coin to this.

1 = They just wanna make a living, if a British citizen couldn't be bothered to do the work, and an immigrant wanted it, why should they get a job over someone who wants it.

2 = however, discrimination is a MAJOR factor now. I live in the West Midlands, and because of the "cultural differences", they are only asking for Asian people to join the police to try and even it out. There is also Asian society in our uni where you HAVE to be Asian to join. Me mates tried to set up a white society and were accused of being Nazi's....

I agree with the Tories immigration policy, if they don't benefit this country by not paying towards the upkeep of the economy, why should they be here??

If i moved to America and didn't pay my way, they'd send me back here, but then again, they are allowed to do that because i am white,, play the race card.

{oh i expect to be ripped to shreads by others on this forum, but i don't care}

[screech]

Exactly mate, it supposed to be a two way thing but it isn't. Being white severely lessens your argument on things like immigration because people throw the racist tag about, well I don't care either, they can call me whatever they like.

The country will go to the wall if Labour don't get a hold of our borders and stamp down on immigration, the NHS at the moment can't keep up with the demand now, just think what will happen when the hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants will do to it in later years. And yes I did say hundreds of thousands. Blair and his cronies can't even tell you now how many are in the country, can anyone tell me why they flock here? when they could have stopped in France,Spain,Italy,Germany etc.

I'll say again, immigrants who want to work and can speak the language and have money in the bank to support their stay for a year are fine, if not, turn them away at the airports, sea ports and channel tunnel. If that makes me a racist then that's fine by me.

[Percy Parrot]

Percy - I think its a ver bold statement to claim to live more in the real world than somebody whose background you do not know....

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no bolder than Screech's original statement that I am a "joke" who does not live in the real world. Don't think I have ever been in Nelson Mandela bar with my scruffy mates. So I think I am totally justified in my comments.

[Percy Parrot]

where the bloody hell could britain put a million refugees?

WE WOULDN'T!!! There are other countries in this world who can and do help out as well!!!!

refugees: should go to the nearest boardering country and return home after the conflict or natural disaster has ended

This is what DOES happen is most cases...but it normally means millions of refugees camping in tents with no running water and extremely poor health conditions! thus disease and death. THAT is the point!

[Percy Parrot]

Why should they use the British NHS / send their kids to British schools if they don't pay tax / national insurance etc.

But many of them DO pay tax, national insurance etc. Some don't, but some white, British people don't either!!

[Percy Parrot]

we should follow the lead of the australians. they don let hardley anybody in because they want to perserve there national identity, and also becauaes of large amounts of inhabitle land.

Their national identity WAS aboriginal until they let the white immigrants in who now run the country.

[Guest markreynolds1986]

I be going UKIP , wont win but its a protest vote , BNP are a little too extreme and coservatives aint right wing enough , so UKIP it is

[lukejones2]

no bolder than Screech's original statement that I am a "joke" who does not live in the real world. Don't think I have ever been in Nelson Mandela bar with my scruffy mates. So I think I am totally justified in my comments.

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If you read the rest of my post I think you'll find we are of similar mindset on this issue.

However, with respect to the above, did you never get told that two wrongs don't make a right...?!

[Slave to the rhythm]

I be going UKIP , wont win but its a protest vote , BNP are a little too extreme and coservatives aint right wing enough , so UKIP it is 

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Protest about what, exactly?

Membership of UKIP is almost exclusively made up of small minded parish councillors from Buckinghamshire called Basil or Percy. If you want to vote for them then that's your choice, but what a waste of a vote.

[hilltop red]

We can't keep taking immigrants, asylum seekers and refugees at the rate we are at this present moment. We do not know how many people are entering this country( that is fact), whether its only 1000 people, or 200,000, whether there white, black, asian or purple with green spots, we need to seriously sort out the current system. Criminals, terriosts and no good lay abouts are entering this tiny island, that is already over populated ( why else are we buliding on flood plains, and we cannot already provide affordadable housing to our own population)

Once we have a better system in place, where faild applicants arnt allowed to dissapear. Only then should we open are boarders, France, and spain to of the biggest and "underpopulated" countries in the EU could cope better then us, also they are to countries that are just passing immigrants to us, we are a soft touch and this must change.

The NHS is falling to piecies, they are overcrowded and underfunded blame the previous goverment if you must, but did they predict/allow for the current numbers of freeloaders entering this country?

[Percy Parrot]

Protest about what, exactly?

Membership of UKIP is almost exclusively made up of small minded parish councillors from Buckinghamshire called Basil or Percy.

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me!?! hehe

actually my personal tutor at Uni set up UKIP. He now calls them his Frankenstein!!!

[Percy Parrot]

We can't keep taking immigrants, asylum seekers and refugees at the rate we are at this present moment.

In 2002 the population increase of the country was 0.28% per year.

But also the population is expected to peak in 2040. So we will then need more people coming in to sustain the aging population.

I think we should end this apocalyptic view of us all falling into the sea because there isn't enough room in the UK for us all.

[hilltop red]

In 2002 the population increase of the country was 0.28% per year.

But also the population is expected to peak in 2040. So we will then need more people coming in to sustain the aging population.

I think we should end this apocalyptic view of us all falling into the sea because there isn't enough room in the UK for us all.

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so in 35 years the population is going to increase by around 6 million, with a 168,000 each year thats a small- medium town a year around, 40-70 thousand each year will be migrants.

Most of these migrants will go to existing communties of there ethnic background. So most will be going to northen england inner citie areas. Slums will be formed in some areas. And the middle classes will move south. This means that extra homes will be built every year in the south.

Social tensions will occur in many cities. Unemployment will rise, and will be blamed on the immigrants. causing further tensions.

If britain had a pro birth policy, and maternity leave pay is increased as is being announced, then britain could sustain itself.

Ive been studying As leval geography and china is going to experiance a shortage in its workforce due to the baby boom years of the fifties. now there economy shows no sign of slowing due to the one baby poilcy and an ageing population is in store, will they be able to sustain their growth, no. Will they ask for immigrants, no. Will the country survive, yes. Why? because the chinease are confident hard working and efficent. Britain can support an aging population by cutting immigrant numbers. 1 immigrant benefits, could be given to one pensioner. Cut £10,000 a year off an mp's wage could be used for the elderly. Use lottery funding for pensions, instead of guieni pig farmers in peru, and you don't need immigrants. Stop giving 40billion a year to the Eu, more money saved. Only let british fisherman fish in britains seas, and you get sustainable economies in cornmall and scotland.

We will need immigrants, but not in the numbers. Most peoples anger towards immigrants and asylum seekers is that they: flout rules, preach hate, cause crime, import people in awful conditions, bring guns to a country with no gun culture, cry human rights when being deported when application failed. Being housed instead of people in need (the people that sleep rough every night, council house waiting list) I'm 17 and already have had enough. I read the local paper and see asylum kids getting community groups, special sports, cheaper swimming and other things.

I am also fed up with having to fill in my nationality on every form i sign. How can we have equality, when we are constantly seperating ourselves on forms.

I also see that there is a Gay police association that are having a march for support. If you are a policeman, sorry poilce person. Why does it matter if you are gay or straight. Why are we constanly seperating ourselves constantly from each other, i don't care if you are gay or straight, black or white.

These crappy new comissions are intended for support, why cant we support each other. A united kingdom will never be united if we seperate ourselves from each other. If scotland and wales have their own assembilies why cant the english. Why should a scottish mp be able to vote on issues that only concern england, when a english mp cant do the same thing. Scottish mps voted on their own hunting bill. Then got to vote on the english and welsh hunting bill, a bill that does not concern them

I'm very pi**ed at this goverment and cannot yet vote. Tuition fees will probably stop me going to university in a years time. This is one future voter that labour cannot ever win.

[The Batman]

I'm 17 and already have had enough. I read the local paper and see asylum kids getting community groups, special sports, cheaper swimming and other things.

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Another example of the wonders of Wolverhampton is some football matters.

On the local news last year, at team was set of entirely of Asian players, i don't have a policy against that, however, it was an Asian only side {no white or black allowed},, oh it gets worse. The council were giving them money to improve their status and asked some football teams to look at the players because of the lack of Asian footballers in the top divisions

And it went out on the local news, and the result.. the scouts thought they were awful

yet

i'm only 19 still and still got a very very small chance of being spotted by someone, and I have played along side soooo many brilliant young footballers in my time, why don't they get a special mention??, if i join any random side in any random sunday league team, will the local news come down and look at me??? MY ARSE they will.

I agree with hilltop red, i'm p155ed off as well when it comes to discounts and special stuff and all that.

[Slave to the rhythm]

so in 35 years the population is going to increase by  around 6 million, with a 168,000 each year  thats a small- medium town a year around, 40-70 thousand each year will be migrants.

Most of these migrants will go to existing communties of there ethnic background. So most will be going to northen england inner citie areas. Slums will be formed in some areas. And the middle classes will move south. This means that extra homes will be built every year in the south.

Social tensions will occur in many cities. Unemployment will rise, and will be blamed on the immigrants. causing further tensions.

If britain had a pro birth policy, and maternity leave pay is increased as is being announced, then britain could sustain itself.

Ive been studying As leval geography and china is going to experiance a shortage in its workforce due to the baby boom years of the fifties. now there economy shows no sign of slowing due to the one baby poilcy and an ageing population is in store,  will they be able to sustain their growth, no. Will they ask for immigrants, no. Will the country survive, yes. Why? because the chinease are confident hard working and efficent. Britain can support an aging population by cutting immigrant numbers. 1 immigrant benefits, could be given to one pensioner. Cut £10,000 a year off an mp's wage could be used for the elderly. Use lottery funding for pensions, instead of guieni pig farmers in peru, and you don't need immigrants. Stop giving 40billion a year to the Eu, more money saved. Only let british fisherman fish in britains seas, and you get sustainable economies in cornmall and scotland.

We will need immigrants, but not in the numbers. Most peoples anger towards immigrants and asylum seekers is that they: flout rules, preach hate, cause crime, import people in awful conditions, bring guns to a country with no gun culture, cry human rights when being deported when application failed. Being housed instead of people in need (the people that sleep rough every night, council house waiting list) I'm 17 and already have had enough. I read the local paper and see asylum kids getting community groups, special sports, cheaper swimming and other things.

I am also fed up with having to fill in my nationality on every form i sign. How can we have equality, when we are constantly seperating ourselves on forms.

I also see that there is a Gay police association that are having a march for support. If you are a policeman, sorry poilce person. Why does it matter if you are gay or straight. Why are we constanly seperating ourselves constantly from each other, i don't care if you are gay or straight, black or white.

These crappy new comissions are intended for support, why cant we support each other. A united kingdom will never be united if we seperate ourselves from each other. If scotland and wales have their own assembilies why cant the english. Why should a scottish mp be able to vote on issues that only concern england, when a english mp cant do the same thing. Scottish mps voted on their own hunting bill. Then got to vote on the english and welsh hunting bill, a bill that does not concern them

I'm very pi**ed at this goverment and cannot yet vote. Tuition fees will probably stop me going to university in a years time. This is one future voter that labour cannot ever win.

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You seem like quite an angry, confused young man. Some of the points you make(Scottish MPs voting on English matters but no reciprocal arrangement, tuition fees being introduced) are valid and I agree with you. However, some of your other points are just plain wrong. The Chinese are not hard working and confident - they are a nation of virtual slaves who have very little say over how they run their daily lives. China is not a good example to use if you are looking to show how Britain "could be better". The Scandinavian nations are a good example of what Britain could aspire to. Clean, open, friendly places where people don't mind paying their taxes because they know that they are being used for the common good.

Also, please don't use such sweeping generalisations when discussing immigrants. Some of my closest friends are of Pakistani or African origin and I can assure you that they are hard-working, intelligent, family oriented people. They are certainly not the hateful, wasteful scroungers you refer to.

[Guest WillsbridgeRed]

What worries me about this election so far, is that Labour seem to be making more effort to rubbish the points put forward by the conservatives, than making positive suggestions about what they intend to do regarding certain issues.

Asylum and immigration is obviously a huge concern to what I belive to be the majoirty of this country, never mind the liberals that seem to inhabit net forums and the BBC news network constantly giving their pro immigration view point.(and lately the evil post).

But Immigration is only a part of major issues that Labour don't seem to have any idea how to handle. Education, transport and the enviroment are all things they seem to be mute on.

I think a Tory win would offer reasonable and beneficial change to this country. Labour and the left made a big fuss of privitisation in the 90's, but they have continued this trend but at the same time ploughed billions into a faltering rail network, without making any real improvements.

The lib dems make me laugh, they are like a small boy stood behind to big boys having a row, who no one is listening to apart from his mates.

[hilltop red]

You seem like quite an angry, confused young man. Some of the points you make(Scottish MPs voting on English matters but no reciprocal arrangement, tuition fees being introduced) are valid and I agree with you. However, some of your other points are just plain wrong. The Chinese are not hard working and confident - they are a nation of virtual slaves who have very little say over how they run their daily lives. China is not a good example to use if you are looking to show how Britain "could be better". The Scandinavian nations are a good example of what Britain could aspire to. Clean, open, friendly places where people don't mind paying their taxes because they know that they are being used for the common good.

Also, please don't use such sweeping generalisations when discussing immigrants. Some of my closest friends are of Pakistani or African origin and I can assure you that they are hard-working, intelligent, family oriented people. They are certainly not the hateful, wasteful scroungers you refer to.

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Take my point that some immigrants are ruining it, for the rest of the them. I honestly forget to say that not all immigrants are crimelords, and everybody understands this.

I disagree with you on my chinese point though. Yes some are working and living in awful conditions, and china is a long way off from joining the western world in human rights and living standards . However i know many chinese people and they are arrogant in thier ways ( i mean confident, and very assure of themselves. sort of Arrogant in a good way) and work damn hard. Most have two jobs and still remain at the top of the class

The chinese are disiplined, by nature, my friends are excellent musicians and one works long hours in his parents chinese shop for free.

We take the mick out of him for this. However i also see theis as a good quality that british socitey has lost. People are crying human rights and demeanding benfits and the compensation culture is out of control. We also have stupid EU regulations that only britain seems to be taking as gospel. This has occured during the left wing years of labour, and it has gone too far.

[Percy Parrot]

so in 35 years the population is going to increase by around 6 million, with a 168,000 each year thats a small- medium town a year around, 40-70 thousand each year will be migrants.

it is expected to peak at 64m.

Most of these migrants will go to existing communties of there ethnic background. So most will be going to northen england inner citie areas.

I expect most of them would settle in the south-east actually.

Slums will be formed in some areas.

I love the way you write that statement as fact. I actually rather feel the on-going government initiatives to provide low-cost housing will prevent slums.

And the middle classes will move south. This means that extra homes will be built every year in the south.

you cleverly...or not so cleverly double count because you fail to mention that if people move south then their homes would then be able to buy!! Anyway- the point here is that the south is far more middle-class anyway.

Social tensions will occur in many cities.

Apocalyptic again! Don't let them in or they will cause riots! You can't use fear like that to justify it. There is NO REASON AT ALL for social tensions to increase. They are more likely to be increased by the party political anti-immigration or far-right propaganda!

Unemployment will rise, and will be blamed on the immigrants.

yes there are unemployed...but of more concern to this country is the labour SHORTAGE. The building trade lacks 200,000 basic tradesmen and labourers, the NHS needs 1,000 laboratory technicians and the haulage industry is short of 80,000 truck drivers. This shows that the existing unemployed either refuse to take those jobs or are not skilled enough. By covering these shortages we will boost the economy thus providing jobs for the existing unemployed.

If britain had a pro birth policy, and maternity leave pay is increased as is being announced, then britain could sustain itself.

pro-birth policy? Force people to have kids!?! I really don't think maternity pay will make THAT much difference to the birth rate- MOST people in this country are well off enough to have kids...an extra couple of hundred £ here and there will make no difference.

Ive been studying As leval geography and china is going to experiance a shortage in its workforce due to the baby boom years of the fifties. now there economy shows no sign of slowing due to the one baby poilcy and an ageing population is in store, will they be able to sustain their growth, no. Will they ask for immigrants, no. Will the country survive, yes. Why? because the chinease are confident hard working and efficent.

if confidence is a positive thing then we should totally ignore the negative anti-immigration we're all going to die because of them fear certain people keep spouting out. The Germans are famous for their work ethic but they have REAL worries over the fact that their population is expected to drop by 20m in the second half of this century. Work ethic won't solve that problem!

Britain can support an aging population by cutting immigrant numbers. 1 immigrant benefits, could be given to one pensioner.

sorry but immigration MAKES MONEY for this country. So actually you would need MORE money to sustain pensioners.

Cut £10,000 a year off an mp's wage could be used for the elderly.

and the quality of MPs would go down massively- as ambitious well educated people would not consider a career in politics because the wages their education could get them would only be available in the private sector.

Use lottery funding for pensions, instead of guieni pig farmers in peru,

think you'll actually find that almost all, if not all, they money for good causes from the Lotto stays within the UK. You make suggestions as to how money could be better spent to make up for the economic problem of an aging population. Why not let immigration help that problem and re-use your money on other projects. You are trying to justify your view on why we should have fewer immigrants while in the process admitting that it is detrimental to the economy!!!

Stop giving 40billion a year to the Eu, more money saved. Only let british fisherman fish in britains seas, and you get sustainable economies in cornmall and scotland.

see above. Plus- drop out of the EU- watch our markets shrink, wait for similar protectionism to hit our exports and enjoy watching the economy fall apart. Good plan.

Most peoples anger towards immigrants and asylum seekers is that they: flout rules,

Some do but SO DO SOME WHITE BRITISH-BORN PEOPLE!!!!!! Many of them (immigrants) also contribute SUPERB skills, energy, enthusiasm and work to our country!

preach hate

SO DO SOME WHITE BRITISH-BORN PEOPLE!!!! You cannot say that immigrants preach hate any more than any other group of people. Sure some of them will be nasty, a TINY minority may even be sympathetic towards terrorists...but SO ARE BRITISH PEOPLE! How many immigrants have bombed Britain? cf. Irish terrorists. I think you will find most immigrants will have chosen to come to Britain because they feel it is a good country with good people where they will be happy to settle. They don't come here to blow us up or preach hate. THAT ACCUSATION IS APPALLING AND I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT IF YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT IS WRONG TO ATTRIBUTE THE PREACHING OF HATE TO IMMIGRANTS. Even if you didn't mean it to come across that way it comes across that a) it is unique to immigrants and b) ALL of them come to do it. Maybe acknowledge those that come to work, provide much needed medical care and enjoy their own religion and believe in peace.

cause crime

see above.

import people in awful conditions

Thank you for AGAIN helping my argument here. People who attempt to enter this country in the awful conditions you speak of are those that are so desperate to escape their country that they will risk their life. This shows just how desperate they often are. It ALSO suggests that if we had a more liberal asylum/immigration policy they would not feel the need to try and enter illegally.

bring guns to a country with no gun culture

and your evidence for this is? Suspect most guns IMPORTED into this country are done so legally for hunting, police, arms or done so illegally over the Irish border- the latter being done probably by white people.

Being housed instead of people in need (the people that sleep rough every night, council house waiting list)

Housing crisis is actually more due to people owning second homes (normally white people from higher socio-economic groups) and split families (as the Asian community are less likely to divorce they are actually LESS likely to need more homes than white people). Many homeless people DO have a home to go to but feel they can not due to some other reason. This is its own problem- NOT an immigration one.

I'm 17 and already have had enough. I read the local paper and see asylum kids getting community groups, special sports, cheaper swimming and other things.

I am pretty sure it is illegal to price things differently on race. Maybe in some areas community groups are run for such communities and this is a good thing- they help vulnerable groups to have opportunities. The same is often the case for British born people. I am sure there are community groups and projects you could have gone to. I know I did when I was younger. I am sure there were many ways you could have had cheap swimming lessons if you were poor. It is easy to see other people getting something and cry "I want!"- but I think many people probably don't realise just how much is on offer for them.

I am also fed up with having to fill in my nationality on every form i sign. How can we have equality, when we are constantly seperating ourselves on forms.

oh god! is it really THAT much of an issue for you to write BRITISH? I think immigrants are more likely to feel angered by their need to declare their nationality. Reduced immigration will NOT take that off any forms so stop complaining about such trivial stuff.

I also see that there is a Gay police association that are having a march for support. If you are a policeman, sorry poilce person. Why does it matter if you are gay or straight. Why are we constanly seperating ourselves constantly from each other, i don't care if you are gay or straight, black or white.

different argument completely.

If scotland and wales have their own assembilies why cant the english.

attempts have been made to bring regional assemblies into England. The north-east rejected it in a referendum recently.

Why should a scottish mp be able to vote on issues that only concern england, when a english mp cant do the same thing. Scottish mps voted on their own hunting bill. Then got to vote on the english and welsh hunting bill, a bill that does not concern them

errr....different issue again!!!

[hilltop red]

it is expected to peak at 64m.

I expect most of them would settle in the south-east actually.

I love the way you write that statement as fact. I actually rather feel the on-going government initiatives to provide low-cost housing will prevent slums.

you cleverly...or not so cleverly double count because you fail to mention that if people move south then their homes would then be able to buy!! Anyway- the point here is that the south is far more middle-class anyway.

Apocalyptic again! Don't let them in or they will cause riots! You can't use fear like that to justify it. There is NO REASON AT ALL for social tensions to increase. They are more likely to be increased by the party political anti-immigration or far-right propaganda!

yes there are unemployed...but of more concern to this country is the labour SHORTAGE. The building trade lacks 200,000 basic tradesmen and labourers, the NHS needs 1,000 laboratory technicians and the haulage industry is short of 80,000 truck drivers. This shows that the existing unemployed either refuse to take those jobs or are not skilled enough. By covering these shortages we will boost the economy thus providing jobs for the existing unemployed.

pro-birth policy? Force people to have kids!?! I really don't think maternity pay will make THAT much difference to the birth rate- MOST people in this country are well off enough to have kids...an extra couple of hundred £ here and there will make no difference.

if confidence is a positive thing then we should totally ignore the negative anti-immigration we're all going to die because of them fear certain people keep spouting out. The Germans are famous for their work ethic but they have REAL worries over the fact that their population is expected to drop by 20m in the second half of this century. Work ethic won't solve that problem! 

sorry but immigration MAKES MONEY for this country. So actually you would need MORE money to sustain pensioners.

and the quality of MPs would go down massively- as ambitious well educated people would not consider a career in politics because the wages their education could get them would only be available in the private sector.

think you'll actually find that almost all, if not all, they money for good causes from the Lotto stays within the UK. You make suggestions as to how money could be better spent to make up for the economic problem of an aging population. Why not let immigration help that problem and re-use your money on other projects. You are trying to justify your view on why we should have fewer immigrants while in the process admitting that it is detrimental to the economy!!!

see above. Plus- drop out of the EU- watch our markets shrink, wait for similar protectionism to hit our exports and enjoy watching the economy fall apart. Good plan.

Some do but SO DO SOME WHITE BRITISH-BORN PEOPLE!!!!!!      Many of them (immigrants) also contribute SUPERB skills, energy, enthusiasm and work to our country!

SO DO SOME WHITE BRITISH-BORN PEOPLE!!!! You cannot say that immigrants preach hate any more than any other group of people. Sure some of them will be nasty, a TINY minority may even be sympathetic towards terrorists...but SO ARE BRITISH PEOPLE! How many immigrants have bombed Britain? cf. Irish terrorists. I think you will find most immigrants will have chosen to come to Britain because they feel it is a good country with good people where they will be happy to settle. They don't come here to blow us up or preach hate. THAT ACCUSATION IS APPALLING AND I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT IF YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT IS WRONG TO ATTRIBUTE THE PREACHING OF HATE TO IMMIGRANTS. Even if you didn't mean it to come across that way it comes across that a) it is unique to immigrants and b) ALL of them come to do it. Maybe acknowledge those that come to work, provide much needed medical care and enjoy their own religion and believe in peace.

see above.

Thank you for AGAIN helping my argument here. People who attempt to enter this country in the awful conditions you speak of are those that are so desperate to escape their country that they will risk their life. This shows just how desperate they often are. It ALSO suggests that if we had a more liberal asylum/immigration policy they would not feel the need to try and enter illegally.

and your evidence for this is? Suspect most guns IMPORTED into this country are done so legally for hunting, police, arms or done so illegally over the Irish border- the latter being done probably by white people.

Housing crisis is actually more due to people owning second homes (normally white people from higher socio-economic groups) and split families (as the Asian community are less likely to divorce they are actually LESS likely to need more homes than white people). Many homeless people DO have a home to go to but feel they can not due to some other reason. This is its own problem- NOT an immigration one.

I am pretty sure it is illegal to price things differently on race. Maybe in some areas community groups are run for such communities and this is a good thing- they help vulnerable groups to have opportunities. The same is often the case for British born people. I am sure there are community groups and projects you could have gone to. I know I did when I was younger. I am sure there were many ways you could have had cheap swimming lessons if you were poor. It is easy to see other people getting something and cry "I want!"- but I think many people probably don't realise just how much is on offer for them.

oh god! is it really THAT much of an issue for you to write BRITISH? I think immigrants are more likely to feel angered by their need to declare their nationality. Reduced immigration will NOT take that off any forms so stop complaining about such trivial stuff.

different argument completely.

attempts have been made to bring regional assemblies into England. The north-east rejected it in a referendum recently.

errr....different issue again!!!

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First of all my post was not entirly made up of immigrant issue, more of a rant at the country altogether

second of all i nowhere mentioned that the people causing crime or bringing guns to this country were of black or asian descent, last time i checked the ira and eastern europeans were white. Also when has a poilecman or farmer ever used a magnum or uzi for there profession. And again i never seperated immigrants into races.

I have no idea why you keep using asians for trying to undermine my statement, maybe you think i must be racist.

I also said the country will need immigrants but not at the current levals we are expericing(sp) as i do understand we need some of thier skills and where there is gaps.

Are principal exports and imports are the same thing, food, elctrical eqiuipment and chemical products. we do not need to buy what we make. Also we can become a global market player with other continents rather then eu states, and thus help the developing world.

I also said that social tensions would occur in cities, you said that tensions were more likely to be caused by right wing extremists. and once again percy you have assumed i ment asians would be the cause of this. I did not say who would cause the tension as i can not see that far ahead.

why would the quality of mps go down if they took apay cut? surley if politicians are dedicated then they will stick at their jobs, and only the politicians with peoples intrests at heart will continue in there carrer?

I also said an english assembley like the scots and welsh have, not dividing this country into political regions.

Also the United Kingdom is our country. and england, scotland, wales and northen ireland are its regions. Likely each region is lucky enough to have kept its identity, and to be represented by our own national sports teams.

Most of your arguments our based purley on econmoic reasons. This is good for the rest of us because you are at the london school of economics, and you should know what you are talking about. And ive been very intrested in your counter arguments. However there is more to a nations well being then economics.

[Percy Parrot]

First of all my post was not entirly made up of immigrant issue, more of a rant at the country altogether

yeah, fair enough- but the move from immigration to an anti-P.C. rant was too smooth.

second of all i nowhere mentioned that the people causing crime or bringing guns to this country were of black or asian descent

no, but you did say immigrants. I should have written "White British". I think the point about 'preaching hate' was pretty implicit.

last time i checked the ira were white.

yes and many of them, probably most of them, are British. They live within our borders. So this is my point- immigrants are no more responsible for brining guns into this country than the British are!

Also when has a poilecman or farmer ever used a magnum or uzi for there profession.

Never. Your point being? They still kill!

I have no idea why you keep using asians for trying to undermine my statement, maybe you think i must be racist.

no. I think I used Asians ONCE in my last post (re: divorce rates) which I am perfectly entitled to do to back up my argument. I don't think you are a racist at all- well, I hope not! But I do think your fear of immigration is based on irrational fears created by people who, although they probably won't admit it, are racist and fearful of the different religions, cultures and colours that immigration may bring. I can't imagine such an outcry if we had no immigration but a birth rate that increased the population at the same rate.

I also said the country will need immigrants but not at the current levals we are expericing(sp) as i do understand we need some of thier skills and where there is gaps.

I know you did- and I agree. But you then went on to talk about how they preached hate, imported guns etc etc. More importantly you acknowledged it but then linked their arrival to the unemployed- which I believe is rubbish.

Are principal exports and imports are the same thing, food, elctrical eqiuipment and chemical products. we do not need to buy what we make. Also we can become a global market player with other continents rather then eu states, and thus help the developing world.

I'm not too sure what you are arguing for or against here. What I said re: protectionism- I don't like it at all. I am a fan of free-trade, taking away tariffs etc. re: EU- if we are outside of the EU trading will be hit. Why would foreign companies buy products from us if they can get them cheaper (without tariffs) from elsewhere? or without foreign exchange. Out of Europe will leave us behind. In the late nineteenth century Prussia and other German states formed a similar thing- the Zollverein. This was a free trade area. Austria, who had previously dominated that area of Europe for centuries, did not join. They got completely left behind and only when they realised the need to be in it did they go back cap in hand...only to be refused. More recently- the EU had its origins in post-war Europe and the formation of the EEC. France and Germany currently have far more power in the EU because Britain was not in there from the start- by dragging our heels we got left behind and lost influence to two nations who had no more economic, political or military clout than us. If our mindset was to change and we were to embrace the EU, and LEAD the EU then we would get far more from it.

I also said that social tensions would occur in cities, you said that tensions were more likely to be caused by right wing extremists. and once again percy you have assumed i ment asians would be the cause of this. I did not say who would cause the tension as i can not see that far ahead.

I never said anything about Asians!!! YOU made the link between immigrants and social tension. Not me!!! I find it strange that you cannot see far enough ahead to predict who or what will cause social tensions to rise...but you CAN see far ahead enough to predict that there will be rising social tensions. Strange.

why would the quality of mps go down if they took apay cut? surley if politicians are dedicated then they will stick at their jobs, and only the politicians with peoples intrests at heart will continue in there carrer?

READ MY ANSWER! Because the next generation of top graduates will move into the private sector where the pay is far better.

I also said an english assembley like the scots and welsh have, not dividing this country into political regions.

Wales and Scotland- like the North-East are areas of the UK.

Most of your arguments our based purley on econmoic reasons. This is good for the rest of us because you are at the london school of economics, and you should know what you are talking about. And ive been very intrested in your counter arguments. However there is more to a nations well being then economics.

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I agree there is far more to countries than economics. And there is no non-economic argument, in my mind, to justify blocking all immigrants, spreading fear about them or "throwing them back into the sea" as EDR argued! I am actually someone who cares more about the social impact of such things than the economic one. And FYI I am a History student not an economics student. LSE's full title: The London School of Economics and Political Science Try saying that after a few pints.

[hilltop red]