London Under Attack?

[solo1bc]

No one exactly knows who the enemy is, that's why it would be a good idea for this country to have border controls. If our half-wit government had an iota of sense they would reintroduce border controls and then find out exactly who is in this country illegally and also find out why they're here. Since the illegal American and British invasion of Iraq, the tight border controls in place under Saddam Hussein's regime have been dismantled. With no border controls the Iraqi people are now at the mercy of Muslim extremists, who simply walk into their country to blow themselves up on buses and in front of Iraqi Police stations. Sounds familiar?

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I had this discussion with my Dad last night Goblin and unless you opt out of the EU your solution will never happen. Which leaves the only way that I can see of stopping terrorists is to adopt a policy of worldwide social justice. Basically treat people as you want to be treated and eventually the extremists will lose all support and die out.

Unfortunately anytime anyone speaks out about something like this they are either charactor assasinated by the mainstream media, labelled as a tree hugger or an apologist os something similar, so I don't see this happening in the near future either unfortunately.

The future ain't orange it's the blue & white (and flourescent yellow!) of a police state!

[solo1bc]

You don't hear of christian terrrorists or buddhists slamming planes intro buildings.

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Not in the west you don't but in the east you hear plenty about zionist oppressors and their Christian supporters. Part of the same manipulation by Arabic & Asian media to make them hate us like our right wing media want us to hate them.

[Mr Mosquito]

I had this discussion with my Dad last night Goblin and unless you opt out of the EU your solution will never happen.  Which leaves the only way that I can see of stopping terrorists is to adopt a policy of worldwide social justice.  Basically treat people as you want to be treated and eventually the extremists will lose all support and die out.

Unfortunately anytime anyone speaks out about something like this they are either charactor assasinated by the mainstream media, labelled as a tree hugger or an apologist os something similar, so I don't see this happening in the near future either unfortunately.

The future ain't orange it's the blue & white (and flourescent yellow!) of a police state!

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BenSolo01, that was a very intelligent response

I and many others recognised that exit from the European Union is the only way to regain control of England's borders. For this reason I voted UKIP at the last election in the faint hope of them getting elected, the 3 mainstream British Government political parties are all pro-European Union. There was a referendum in 1975 on whether the UK should continue its EU membership (the EEC at that time). There was, apparently, a 'YES' vote majority in favour of continued membership. However, evidence has been revealed, after 30, years that this 'YES' vote was fixed by our corrupt government.

[annanimo]

People who say that this debate is in bad taste IMO opinion are people who wish to bury their head in the sand.  It is EXACTLY what we should be talking about because it didn't need to happen and instead of only talking about how to 'beat' the terrorists (which even if I had a different view of thing, frankly, ISN'T working!) we should be talking about why these attacks are happening.

I have studied this subject for the last 5-6 years so I'd appreciate it if you didn't call my opinion 'ill-informed' just because you disagree with it as I have not given you the same discourtesy.  Read closely and you will see that this is NOT a debate about the merits of religion, only about how religion plays a factor in the mess the world is currently in, played out in London on Thursday and only even then as a method of manipulation to make people act in such a horrible way.

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Hi. When writing about "ill-informed" opinions. I wasn't referring to your own which actually seem quite reasonable. You yourself are responding to opinions expressed on here that reduce this discussion to simplicities and stereotypes. The truth, as you know, is more complex. I couldn't agree with you more that religion has been used "as a horrible method of manipulation". Unfortunately there are others who seem not to comprehend this das fact - it was to them I was referring.

Again you're right - we should be talking about why these attacks are happening. Which is why we need to become more informed about realities both at home and abroad. Religious and cultural stereotypes don't help. Obviously BenSolo01, you have the advantage of having lived in the Middle East and this complex issue has been a concern to you for some time, but many here in the UK, as witnessed by some of the postings here, don't see things in the considered way that you do.

In regards what I said about perceptions of Islam. When people in the UK think "muslims", they think 9/11, terrorists, bin Laden, Sharia law, etc. We need to develop an attitude that recognises that these things are not typical of islam, that terrorists do not represent mainstream muslim communities. As I've said earlier on this, I thi9nk Muslim leaders need to take some real leadership on the issue.

My intention has never been to insult anyone, especially BenSolo01 who has made some interesting contributions and in fact caused me to do some research.

[bristolborn_and_red]

Not in the west you don't but in the east you hear plenty about zionist oppressors and their Christian supporters.  Part of the same manipulation by Arabic & Asian media to make them hate us like our right wing media want us to hate them.

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Do you mean like "the protocols of the elders of zion" which is widely availible in Egypt and probably other muslim states (although i don't know this). Or maybe "mein kampf" which is the best selling book in Turkey.

PS i'll try and reply to your earlier threads (the long ones) ASAP as its the weekend now and family and friends take precedent.

[solo1bc]

Hi.  When writing about "ill-informed" opinions.  I wasn't referring to your own which actually seem quite reasonable.  You yourself are responding to opinions expressed on here that reduce this discussion to simplicities and stereotypes.  The truth, as you know, is more complex.  I couldn't agree with you more that religion has been used "as a horrible method of manipulation".  Unfortunately there are others who seem not to comprehend this das fact - it was to them I was referring.

Again you're right - we should be talking about why these attacks are happening.  Which is why we need to become more informed about realities both at home and abroad.  Religious and cultural stereotypes don't help.  Obviously BenSolo01, you have the advantage of having lived in the Middle East and this complex issue has been a concern to you for some time, but many here in the UK, as witnessed by some of the postings here, don't see things in the considered way that you do.

In regards what I said about perceptions of Islam.  When people in the UK think "muslims", they think 9/11, terrorists, bin Laden, Sharia law, etc.  We need to develop an attitude that recognises that these things are not typical of islam, that terrorists do not represent mainstream muslim communities. As I've said earlier on this, I thi9nk Muslim leaders need to take some real leadership on the issue.

My intention has never been to insult anyone, especially BenSolo01 who has made some interesting contributions and in fact caused me to do some research.

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Thank you annanimo... Your a voice of reason...

[annanimo]

Thank you annanimo...  Your a voice of reason...

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Hmm, hope that's a compliment.

Anyway, I see the police are saying this disaster was caused by timing deices, meaning all this may be the handiwork of one individual rather than a collaboration of suicide bombers.

I suppose this will make it practically impossible for the police to ever identify the culprit responsible and we may never know for sure whether it was genuinely planned by some al-Qaeda group or otherwise.

Either way we need to look at new ways of dealing with terrorism. I'm not too sure I like all the solutions people like Charles Clarke are putting forward but it's imperative to adopt approaches that take into consideration the underlying causes of the recent wave of terrorist attacks.

[solo1bc]

Hmm, hope that's a compliment.

Anyway, I see the police are saying this disaster was caused by timing deices, meaning all this may be the handiwork of one individual rather than a collaboration of suicide bombers.

I suppose this will make it practically impossible for the police to ever identify the culprit responsible and we may never know for sure whether it was genuinely planned by some al-Qaeda group or otherwise.

Either way we need to look at new ways of dealing with terrorism.  I'm not too sure I like all the solutions people like Charles Clarke are putting forward but it's imperative to adopt approaches that take into consideration the underlying causes of the recent wave of terrorist attacks.

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It was annanimo...

It just goes to show how insane this 'War on Terror' is though. IF (and thats a big IF) this was the work of just one person with timing devices then all the security and invasion of privacy in the world can never stop a single person from learning how to make and planting bombs in public places...

I may sound like a right tree hugger but really I'm not (I'm a football fan after all!) but some kind of global social justice is really the only way I can think of.

Turn the other cheek for long enough and these kind of terror groups will eventually lose their support, both financially and morally (not that they've got a moral leg to stand on but you know what I'm getting at!)

I appreciate how impossible that must seem for the families of those lost on Thursday but we in the west seem to be expecting the same of people in Iraq & Afghanistan.

Thought you'd find the below interesting... Very radical theory if your new to the 'conspiracy' world (very familiar one if your not!) but some good supporting links to the usual underreported mainstream media stories (I particularily like the one about the missing billions of aid money for iraq reported by the Guardian! How can this not be a HUGE scandal!) and other indy media sites...

http://www.rense.com/general66/dwh.htm

I wouldn't go as far as to say the attacks were carried out by 'black ops' agents as this guy suggests as I'm still trying not believe that about my own government would do that... then again I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand either!

It's pretty convenient if you think about it that the police are claiming we may never know who's responsible! Just have to believe whatever the media tell me then!

[Guest MaloneFM]

I'd really like to say Michael Shore is a nut job. So is Ben Solo. But I can't find anything to back that up.

And I'd like to. But I can't.

I have heard first hand accounts of operations in northern Ireland where the SAS have ambushed police patrols and set off roadside bombs. The way the Loyalist groups worked hand in hand with the RUC.

If it makes sense politically the dogs of war are let off the leash.

[solo1bc]

I'd really like to say Michael Shore is a nut job. So is Ben Solo. But I can't find anything to back that up.

And I'd like to. But I can't.

I have heard first hand accounts of operations in northern Ireland where the SAS have ambushed police patrols and set off roadside bombs. The way the Loyalist groups worked hand in hand with the RUC.

If it makes sense politically the dogs of war are let off the leash.

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Believe me Malone, I wish I was a nut job too!

Despite the impression my posts may give though I'm from a small village outside Bristol, went to a normal school, have a normal job and do not own a single tie-die t-shirt! I do own a bongo but can't play the thing!

Unfortunately this crazy world and the actions of most of our politicians makes a lot more sense when you look at it from a conspiracy point of view..

If it's not a conspiracy then we are led by complete morons so dunno which is scarier!

[bucksred]

Sudan - Ok fine but what about the genocide in Rwanda or Congo?  They don't have any muslims at all.  I've lived in Africa for 6 years mate and it's strictly tribal.  Religion is often used as an excuse but it's no coincidence that this clan is all Christian and that tribe is all Muslim.  Even within religions, that clan is all Shia and the other is all Sunni so they fight each other.

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Africa, my friend is a time bomb waiting to happen, with Islam........Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Sudan, Nigeria, Chad, Mauretania, South Africa, possibly Mozambique, Zimbabwe too.........I was born in Africa, and as a kid you barely noticed Muslims, cept Zanzibar, and Mombasa, in particular, but they will son be a majority in most of those states, and even in Secular South Africa, they are causing, and winning disputes- the first Burka I saw anywhere was in Cape Town, with the husband in Gangsta chic fashion with her..didnt even see one of them in MUSLIM Turkey..........fair point bout Rwanda, but it aint strictly tribal at all.........unless one tribe is Christian/Animist and the neighbours Muslim..........

[solo1bc]

Africa, my friend is a time bomb waiting to happen, with Islam........Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Sudan, Nigeria, Chad, Mauretania, South Africa, possibly Mozambique, Zimbabwe too.........I was born in Africa, and as a kid you barely noticed Muslims, cept Zanzibar, and Mombasa, in particular, but they will son be a majority in most of those states, and even in Secular South Africa, they are causing, and winning disputes- the first Burka I saw anywhere was in Cape Town, with the husband in Gangsta chic fashion with her..didnt even see one of them in MUSLIM Turkey..........fair point bout Rwanda, but it aint strictly tribal at all.........unless one tribe is Christian/Animist and the neighbours Muslim..........

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I'll have to take your word for it about the rise of Islam in Africa mate cos I haven't lived there for 5 years. I was there when PAGAD (People Against Gansterism And Drugs!) first emerged claiming to be a muslim organisation against um.. Gansterism and Drugs in the Cape Town townships though... It turned out though that after they'd necklaced (delightful South African invention where you fill a tire with petrol, stuff someone in it and set it on fire) a couple of drug dealers that it was another gang behind the whole thing who were just trying to get rid of the competition.

Kind of underlines my point that it isn't Islam itself that makes people do these things but cultural traditions or corrupt leaders who hijack it and see it as a very good way to manipulate a lot of people.

You say it's not tribal but by definition you very rarely have people from the same tribe in different religions so it's natural that if there is animosity already between two groups and one is Christian while the other is Muslim and they come to fighting it will be seen as religious. It will certainly be reported that way in the media to continue the divide and conquor tactics that have been working for thousands of years.

As for not seeing a Burka in MUSLIM Turkey then you prove my point for me mate, they don't wear them cos it's not in their cultural tradition. Same as Lebanon, Egypt & Jordan etc.

I don't know anything about Kenya or Mozambique but I would disagree with you about Chad & Nigeria. I lived in the Ivory Coast and Ghana for 2 years and don't see the conflicts in that part of Africa as relgious despite the violence in Nigeria recently. It think it's more financial (the have's against the have not's) or just regional warlords wanting more power ala Sierra Leone..

If you're right though and Africa is a time bomb, I still don't think that is the 'fault' of Islam more a case of people being forced toward extremists (who call themselves Muslims) by the unfair worlds they often live in...

[Rich-TWSC-]

I was in a hotel on Kings Cross Road at the time of the bombings. It was a very sad and surreal day walking around the city not really knowing what was going on.

[bucksred]

I'll have to take your word for it about the rise of Islam in Africa mate cos I haven't lived there for 5 years.  I was there when PAGAD (People Against Gansterism And Drugs!) first emerged claiming to be a muslim organisation against um.. Gansterism and Drugs in the Cape Town townships though...  It turned out though that after they'd necklaced (delightful South African invention where you fill a tire with petrol, stuff someone in it and set it on fire) a couple of drug dealers that it was another gang behind the whole thing who were just trying to get rid of the competition.

Kind of underlines my point that it isn't Islam itself that makes people do these things but cultural traditions or corrupt leaders who hijack it and see it as a very good way to manipulate a lot of people.

You say it's not tribal but by definition you very rarely have people from the same tribe in different religions so it's natural that if there is animosity already between two groups and one is Christian while the other is Muslim and they come to fighting it will be seen as religious.  It will certainly be reported that way in the media to continue the divide and conquor tactics that have been working for thousands of years.

As for not seeing a Burka in MUSLIM Turkey then you prove my point for me mate, they don't wear them cos it's not in their cultural tradition.  Same as Lebanon, Egypt & Jordan etc.

I don't know anything about Kenya or Mozambique but I would disagree with you about Chad & Nigeria.  I lived in the Ivory Coast and Ghana for 2 years and don't see the conflicts in that part of Africa as relgious despite the violence in Nigeria recently.  It think it's more financial (the have's against the have not's) or just regional warlords wanting more power ala Sierra Leone..

If you're right though and Africa is a time bomb, I still don't think that is the 'fault' of Islam more a case of people being forced toward extremists (who call themselves Muslims) by the unfair worlds they often live in...

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Mate it is a huge bomb............Arab Muslim extremists regard Blacks as inferior, the word Kaffir in Afrikaans is derived from the Arabic word Kaffur (Correct me if spelling is wrong) picked up by Dutch settlers to Africa, as a term of contempt for the blacks..........also the last slaves taken in Africa were by Arabs late in the 19th Century, stopped by the scramble for Africa.

[solo1bc]

Mate it is a huge bomb............Arab Muslim extremists regard Blacks as inferior, the word Kaffir in Afrikaans is derived from the Arabic word Kaffur (Correct me if spelling is wrong) picked up by Dutch settlers to Africa, as a term of contempt for the blacks..........also the last slaves taken in Africa were by Arabs late in the 19th Century, stopped by the scramble for Africa.

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African Arabs are still taking black African slaves in places like Mauritania mate.. Not just as economic slaves like Asia but as chattle slaves like it was hundreds of years ago.. Check out www.iabolish.com

My point is only that this is strictly cultural... It has nothing to do with the religion of Islam despite these people calling themselves 'muslims'...

Exactly the same as 95% of the attrocities and human rights violations being perpetrated by so called muslims in the world today... it's just people with backwards cultural values using the religion to hide behind...

Your right that if you generalise then Arabs are pretty racist towards black people but have you ever been to the so called 'Christian' state of Russia! They are far worse!

[bucksred]

African Arabs are still taking black African slaves in places like Mauritania mate..  Not just as economic slaves like Asia but as chattle slaves like it was hundreds of years ago.. Check out www.iabolish.com

My point is only that this is strictly cultural... It has nothing to do with the religion of Islam despite these people calling themselves 'muslims'...

Exactly the same as 95% of the attrocities and human rights violations being perpetrated by so called muslims in the world today... it's just people with backwards cultural values using the religion to hide behind...

Your right that if you generalise then Arabs are pretty racist towards black people but have you ever been to the so called 'Christian' state of Russia!  They are far worse!

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Can not speak about Russians, but I have heard they are racist, specially towards Jews.............but I can comment on Arabic muslim contempt towards blacks, even those who are Muslim too.

As for PAGAD, it may have been a good organization in the beginning, but it has since been hijacked by the lunatic fringe, to a degree that I understand several South Africans were killed in Afghanistan, and others are in Guantanamo Bay, which although I disagree with methods used, is for the hard core fundamentalists.

With Africas myriad problems, there is NO place for Wahabi, and Al Queda extremism..........this on top of AIDS, poverty, tribalism, corruption, and nepotism