Gary Johnson And The Stewart Saga

[Ian M]

Hang on a sec. Assuming your first paragraph is right and Stewart is being forced out, where is Stewart's lack of professionalism? This supposed prima donna has not once criticised Johnson in public. The closest anyone has got is an ambiguous quote to the web master of a side he is joining on loan. He is being forced out yet says nothing in public. This smacks of professionalism.

Why do we have to accept rumours that MS is being forced out but question rumours that MS has acted unprofessionally? (....or vice-versa)

Essentially both are little more than hearsay are they not?

[Guest Ron]

So when someone disagrees with you, they're hypocritical, stubborn, prejudiced and on the wind up?

No. But someone who disagrees with everything Johnson does, barely credit him when he does something well, and comes down on him with a hammer blow when he does something wrong (which may not be wrong anyway) is.

Us "Stewart In" people have posted plenty of evidence (or at least reason) that he'd contribute more to the team than Savage, if you don't pay attention then that's your lookout. Of course, such things are entirely subjective, so people will debate them... Shock horror!

Apologies for tarnishing all with the same brush - but the assumption that he will add more to the team than Savage, as I said, cannot be justified. As you say, it is all subjective.

I think after watching a player for 10 or so games, it's reasonable to have an opinion. In my opinion, Stewart could yet come good here and make a big difference, and Savage lacks the fundamental skills to do so. Disagree with it all you like, I'm happy to argue it on it's merits.

We've seen 27 games with Stewart in, and you may not be in the same group as the people I was having a go at here, but there are still people saying we haven't had enough time to see him, but that we've had plenty to see Savage, who's played 10 games less. Doesn't follow.

And you have the nerve to call other people hypocritical... This whole little rant is you on your high horse, and pretending to be "morally above" Robbored.

The wording was not the best chosen I agree, but in my opinion the points are valid.

As for pointing out the good things, I think if you actually had a look at what people post you'd see how wrong you are.

Show me a thread with 15 replies where it's saying something about Johnson where there isn't someone still critisising - or in the wake of a 6-0 victory, still going on about things that may or may not have happened (a Stewart/Johnson bust up followed by "transparent" lies from GJ), and what may or may not have been (a Stewart goal-rout).

But I guess we'll all just SHUT THE ###### UP because you're right eh?

Point taken

For the record Ron, I think you're a good poster who usually has something interesting to say. This is without a doubt the worst post you've ever made.

Although the wording was poor, I still stand by my points.

[Nibor]

Why do we have to accept rumours that MS is being forced out but question rumours that MS has acted unprofessionally? (....or vice-versa)

Essentially both are little more than hearsay are they not?

Don't be silly, whichever side repeats their mantra most and loudest wins don't they?

Anyway I think hearsay is a subject best avoided. After all, they were shockingly bad.

[redrocks]

Fair enough, if that is what he believes then I don't have a problem with that although, what you are saying is that he is spinning the situation. In other words you are agreeing with Robbored's original message.

Hang on a sec. Assuming your first paragraph is right and Stewart is being forced out, where is Stewart's lack of professionalism? This supposed prima donna has not once criticised Johnson in public. The closest anyone has got is an ambiguous quote to the web master of a side he is joining on loan. He is being forced out yet says nothing in public. This smacks of professionalism.

Yet another pathetic, lazy dig at Stewart from a sad sheep. You know that Stewart is a 'bad apple' how? If you want to debate his footballing ability then I'll discuss it with you but otherwise all I've got to say to you is ' Baaaaah'!!!!

1 - If you want to call it spinning, fine. I do not disagree though the negative connotation that comes with that phrase is not warranted.

2 - Apparently he has criticised him in public. That's what all this is about isn't it? The grenade incident caused him to have a pop at GJ in front of the rest of the team. He has also mentioned the fact he doesn't get on to a poster on here and made allusions to that effect on the PNE interview. Or are you being selective on what to want to listen to?

3 - I am drawing my own conclusions. You are free to make yours. Calling me a sad sheep is constructive in what way? If it makes you feel better go ahead. I will not sink to your level you bell-end.

[RedUn]

Could it really be as simple as the manager believing the player is not value for money?

[Guest Ron]

Anyway I think hearsay is a subject best avoided.

Then surely this whole thread is pointless. Makes a change

[Nibor]

Then surely this whole thread is pointless. Makes a change

It wouldn't be the first and somehow I doubt it will be the last.

I disagree though, I wasted at least 10 minutes of my working day reading it, therefore it had a very useful point for me

[Guest Ron]

I disagree though, I wasted at least 10 minutes of my working day reading it, therefore it had a very useful point for me

Me too, go stand outside for 10 minutes when angry

[mozo]

Then surely this whole thread is pointless.

Yep, and the Stewie thread on the non-footy is the only one that tackles the tough questions.

[Colemanballs]

1 - If you want to call it spinning, fine. I do not disagree though the negative connotation that comes with that phrase is not warranted.

Ah, ok, spinning is okay if you're spinning what you want to hear...

2 - Apparently he has criticised him in public. That's what all this is about isn't it? The grenade incident caused him to have a pop at GJ in front of the rest of the team. He has also mentioned the fact he doesn't get on to a poster on here and made allusions to that effect on the PNE interview. Or are you being selective on what to want to listen to?

'Apparently'. I rest my case.

Baaaah!!!!!!!

3 - I am drawing my own conclusions. You are free to make yours. Calling me a sad sheep is constructive in what way? If it makes you feel better go ahead. I will not sink to your level you bell-end.

Ouch, you're a clever chap aren't you.

[Lordofthebling]

Robbored Posted on: Mar 20 2006, 9:04 AM

Good grief! Don't some fans ever give up?

Pot, kettle, black.

Amen to that.

Robbored I'm sure you do this as fun,

Even ETA can have a ceasefire , Why cant you

This forums created a monster

The Robbored head X-Ray

[redrocks]

Ah, ok, spinning is okay if you're spinning what you want to hear...

'Apparently'. I rest my case.

Baaaah!!!!!!!

Ouch, you're a clever chap aren't you.

1 - "Apparently" you have a problem with me agreeing with you. What I am saying is that he has not said anything negative about Marcus at all. So the phrase "spinning", with its negative connotations seems a little harsh to me. It's a simple concept really. Do try and keep up.

2 - What case are you resting exactly? You seem to be arguing for the sake of it. What is your point?

3 - Not as clever as you seem to think you are. But thanks anyway.

[solo1bc]

It's clear that GJ dosn't drink in the Sawyers Arms!!

Amazing we had a dreadful 18 months prior to GJ. And robbored was very supportive of the manager then.

GJ turns the ship round & has had to make some tough decisions & robbored hasn't given any credit.

Now I wonder who the shallow one is.

robbored, I don't think it's GJ that fans can see through!

Precisely my sentiments Rich...

For the sake of arguement Robbored, WHAT EXACTLY DOES GJ HAVE TO DO FOR YOU TO GIVE HIM THE CREDIT THAT YOU SO QUICKLY GAVE BT?

Be top of the tissot manager league? Above Alex Ferguson!

Put a team together who plays with passion and desire that have just had City's best result in over 30 years?

Manage the team to be on promotion form for the last third of the season?

Will any of these do?

Frankly mate, it's getting bloody tiresome. You're entitled to your opinion but we're just as entitled to tell you that you're full of sh!t!

[Robbored]

For the sake of arguement Robbored, WHAT EXACTLY DOES GJ HAVE TO DO FOR YOU TO GIVE HIM THE CREDIT THAT YOU SO QUICKLY GAVE BT?

Its equally tiresome that you and some others repeatly refer to my 'support' of Tinnion.Once again I challenge anyone to dig up a post of mine where I give credit (apart from giving Lita his chance) or support Tinnion.

The fact is that I didn't critise Tinnion or Wilson for that matter but thats not the same as giving credit.

[Dolman Block B]

Some bloke was on a phone in on rad Bris this morning. he was on about Stewart at the supporters trust opening. He said he had a chat with Stewart that night, and asked him outright if he got on well with GJ. the reply was " no we don't get on, and don't talk". While i will admit results look better now, GJ makes himself look whiter than white, which is why i think he has pulled the wool over a lot of peoples eyes. I'm waiting to see if he carries this good end to the season into next, to see if it doesn't how many of the fans praising him now will have the same opinion. I hope he does well because i support the team not the manager (yet).

Very well put Brian, must be that mature brain of yours mate..........

[BCFC_Dan]

The fact is that I didn't critise Tinnion or Wilson for that matter but thats not the same as giving credit.

So you've no time for "hand grenades" but "look me in the eye" and "defeat is not failure" were fine then?

I'd be interested to see the stats comparing results following the hand grenade and following "look me in the eye" - because I've a strong suspicion that the players didn't pay a blind bit of notice to Tinnion or his eyes.

[Nibor]

I'd be interested to see the stats comparing results following the hand grenade and following "look me in the eye" - because I've a strong suspicion that the players didn't pay a blind bit of notice to Tinnion or his eyes.

Look them up then. I can assure you we didn't lose the 5 games following it.

More proof that dealing with people individually works better (although the newspaper bull that accompanied it we could have done without.)

Tinnion made plenty of mistakes, but talking to players individually about problems was not one of them IMO.

Nibor

[BCFC_Dan]

Look them up then. I can assure you we didn't lose the 5 games following it.

I believe you. I don't remember those defeats being followed by a long undefeated run with the team playing exciting, attacking football (although credit to Tinnion, I do remember a 5-0 (I think) win over Oldham, so it wasn't all bad)

[Nibor]

I believe you. I don't remember those defeats being followed by a long undefeated run with the team playing exciting, attacking football (although credit to Tinnion, I do remember a 5-0 (I think) win over Oldham, so it wasn't all bad)

Well, yes, but then it comes down to whether you think our recent run of good form was down to the hand grenade, or whether it was only after players had recovered from it that the different team selections (consistent back four, rid of youga/sankofa/joseph etc, Noble and Russell playing) allowed the results to improve.

I reckon it's the latter, because I didn't think effort, commitment and motivation were a problem previously, just that we were not organised, had the wrong players playing at the back and in midfield, and were having changes made every game. Truth is we'll probably never know since none of us was in the dressing room.

EDIT: I'm quite happy to give Johnson credit for picking the right players, getting things organised and picking a consistent side. I just think his two mistakes were the hand grenade and playing Savage over Stewart and were it not for them we might have something to play for.

Nibor

[BCFC_Dan]

Well, yes, but then it comes down to whether you think our recent run of good form was down to the hand grenade, or whether it was only after players had recovered from it that the different team selections (consistent back four, rid of youga/sankofa/joseph etc, Noble and Russell playing) allowed the results to improve.

I reckon it's the latter, because I didn't think effort, commitment and motivation were a problem previously, just that we were not organised, had the wrong players playing at the back and in midfield, and were having changes made every game. Truth is we'll probably never know since none of us was in the dressing room.

EDIT: I'm quite happy to give Johnson credit for picking the right players, getting things organised and picking a consistent side. I just think his two mistakes were the hand grenade and playing Savage over Stewart and were it not for them we might have something to play for.

Nibor

Personally I think it was a combination of the two. Johnson needed to give a show of strength to show the players he wasn't going to be a soft touch. He wanted to demonstrate that none of them was untouchable and that he would quite happily replace them with other players. I genuinely believe that it was necessary and that the club is better for it.

I would hope, as I'm sure Johnson does, that he'll never need to use another grenade, and that he will be able to demonstrate a more subtle touch in future.

[solo1bc]

Its equally tiresome that you and some others repeatly refer to my 'support' of Tinnion.Once again I challenge anyone to dig up a post of mine where I give credit (apart from giving Lita his chance) or support Tinnion.

The fact is that I didn't critise Tinnion or Wilson for that matter but thats not the same as giving credit.

I don't think I've ever replied to one of your posts before mate so don't know what repeatedly you're talking about.

I know the 'repeatedly' where you repeatedly criticise GJ no matter what the bloke does though.

You didn't answer my question either?

If you could support GJ the way that you bootlicked BT (which you DID do despite your claims that you didn't!) then I (and some others!) would happily get off your case I'm sure.

[Maesknoll Red]

Well, yes, but then it comes down to whether you think our recent run of good form was down to the hand grenade, or whether it was only after players had recovered from it that the different team selections (consistent back four, rid of youga/sankofa/joseph etc, Noble and Russell playing) allowed the results to improve.

I reckon it's the latter, because I didn't think effort, commitment and motivation were a problem previously, just that we were not organised, had the wrong players playing at the back and in midfield, and were having changes made every game. Truth is we'll probably never know since none of us was in the dressing room.

EDIT: I'm quite happy to give Johnson credit for picking the right players, getting things organised and picking a consistent side. I just think his two mistakes were the hand grenade and playing Savage over Stewart and were it not for them we might have something to play for.

Nibor

Whoever had taken over from Tinnion would have had a big job on to turn around the club. Having spoken to one of the long serving players a couple of weeks back, he agreed that the 'comfy club' culture couldn't have been allowed to carry on if we are ever to get out of this league.

Next season will be the one to judge GJ on, this season surely his remit was survival and putting the foundations in place for a promotion push next season and that he looks like achieving. The summer signings will be crucial, a goalscorer to partner Brooker and as Murray and Cotterill are showing inconsistent form, a decent winger wouldn't go amiss. I'd like to see Fontaine signed, as he and Carey are developing into a great central pairing.

[Nibor]

Whoever had taken over from Tinnion would have had a big job on to turn around the club. Having spoken to one of the long serving players a couple of weeks back, he agreed that the 'comfy club' culture couldn't have been allowed to carry on if we are ever to get out of this league.

I agree but I think Wilson was responsible for the comfy club and there were definite signs during Tinnion's time in charge that he was prepared to meet it head on. Johnson hasn't so much carried on that work as he has completely ignored anyone's previous "status", this is a good thing that an outsider brings and why we should never have appointed from within.

Next season will be the one to judge GJ on, this season surely his remit was survival and putting the foundations in place for a promotion push next season and that he looks like achieving. The summer signings will be crucial, a goalscorer to partner Brooker and as Murray and Cotterill are showing inconsistent form, a decent winger wouldn't go amiss. I'd like to see Fontaine signed, as he and Carey are developing into a great central pairing.

Next season will be the one to judge him on now I agree, but it didn't have to be that way. There were 37 games left when Johnson took charge, more than enough to get into the playoffs, and at that point his remit as far as I was concerned was alot more than survival. Despite everything that's happened I do believe that at the start of the season we had one of the best squads in the division, and have seriously underperformed under both managers.

I'd love to see us get a quick striker to play with Brooks, a left winger and Fontaine. That will make me much more positive about GJ, as will a good finish to this season and a good start to the next one. If Savage doesn't score several between now and the end of the season and we still give him a deal, I'll be concerned.

Nibor

[Maesknoll Red]

If Savage doesn't score several between now and the end of the season and we still give him a deal, I'll be concerned.

Nibor

You won't be the only one !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SE23Red]

Its equally tiresome that you and some others repeatly refer to my 'support' of Tinnion.Once again I challenge anyone to dig up a post of mine where I give credit (apart from giving Lita his chance) or support Tinnion.

The fact is that I didn't critise Tinnion or Wilson for that matter but thats not the same as giving credit.

Yet again you ignore the question. I'll make it simple, not distract you with references to Brian.

WHAT EXACTLY DOES GJ HAVE TO DO FOR YOU TO GIVE HIM CREDIT?

And a few of my own:

Do you think that we are better off now than when he joined?

Do you accept that after a period of the club moving backwards we are now moving forwards again?

Which is more relevant to measuring where we are now, a run of 7 games last year or a run of 18 games since then?

How do you expect a manager to act when handling a difficult situation with a player with a high media profile?

My answers? I gve him credit for where we are now. I think the club is much better off now than it was when he joined, that the last 18 games more than make up for the run of losses, and that he has handled the Stewart situation about the only way he could have done. I don't think he is the Messiah, I'm not rushing down to the bookies to put money on us getting promoted either this year or next, but am confident that with a good closed season behind us we'll be back to being competitive next season after a tough 18 months.

[PhatWill]

Look them up then. I can assure you we didn't lose the 5 games following it.

More proof that dealing with people individually works better (although the newspaper bull that accompanied it we could have done without.)

It's not 'proof' at all. Tinnion was trying to sort out the players attitudes and failed miserably. Let's look at it in the long run - 18 months into Johnson's reign, see where we are then and tell who's methodology worked better.

Its equally tiresome that you and some others repeatly refer to my 'support' of Tinnion.Once again I challenge anyone to dig up a post of mine where I give credit (apart from giving Lita his chance) or support Tinnion.

The fact is that I didn't critise Tinnion or Wilson for that matter but thats not the same as giving credit.

95% of City fans could tell that Tinnion had absolutely no idea what the hell he was doing - he's admitted as much since his departure!

Your silence on criticising him spoke volumes.

You were quite clearly 'supportive' of his tenure at the club and the fact that you deny this IS tiresome and a bit of an on running joke (like most of your posts at the minute) frankly.

[SE23Red]

It's not 'proof' at all. Tinnion was trying to sort out the players attitudes and failed miserably. Let's look at it in the long run - 18 months into Johnson's reign, see where we are then and tell who's methodology worked better.

Or just look at the number of players who have improved under GJ's methods against those who have not. Orr, Carey, Woodman, Brooker (I could go on) seem to be on top form, Murray and Heywood have been, and none appear to have any problem with his methods at all.

I just don't understand the criticism of how he has gone about things when most of the evidence suggests that whatever he has done, and most of us know less than 5% of it, has worked.

[SE23Red]

Its equally tiresome that you and some others repeatly refer to my 'support' of Tinnion.Once again I challenge anyone to dig up a post of mine where I give credit (apart from giving Lita his chance) or support Tinnion.

The fact is that I didn't critise Tinnion or Wilson for that matter but thats not the same as giving credit.

Fair play to you I have looked back over some posts of the start of this season and your position of that time has been misrepresented. You appeared to be very strong in your support for him only because you defended him against all-comers calling for him to go. You only ever said he should be given time, you never actually said he was any good.

The nature of your argument is captured perfectly in the following quote from you in this thread

My view is that we as fans should support manager regardless of of whether we rate him or not - after all the job is hard enough without the fans making it even harder.

How does that square with your one-man campaign to pick holes in everything our current manager does?

[Robbored]

Fair play to you I have looked back over some posts of the start of this season and your position of that time has been misrepresented. You appeared to be very strong in your support for him only because you defended him against all-comers calling for him to go. You only ever said he should be given time, you never actually said he was any good.

The nature of your argument is captured perfectly in the following quote from you in this thread

How does that square with your one-man campaign to pick holes in everything our current manager does?

That was written in good faith of Johnson doing a good job,which in fairness he started to do.He then through' miss management and sledge hammer tactics got it badly wrong and since has made further errors.That imo deserves critism.

Next season Johnson will start with clean sheet and I will not slate him as I have this season.That said my right as a fan is to comment on tactics,team selection and substitutions - which I will do...

[Nibor]

It's not 'proof' at all. Tinnion was trying to sort out the players attitudes and failed miserably. Let's look at it in the long run - 18 months into Johnson's reign, see where we are then and tell who's methodology worked better.

Fair enough, it's not proof, but it's certainly evidence.

I think 18 months into Johnson's reign we'll have improved, that's not what I'm disputing. What I'm disputing is that it was necessary to take a pop at the whole team including those players that WERE performing well. I'm also disputing that the hand grenade is why we're on a good run, I think it much more likely that the large number of changes in the first XI which coincide EXACTLY with our turnaround in performances is the reason, combined with fitness and organisation which I'm happy to give the manager credit for.

We'll likely finish this season 3-4 points off the playoffs, and my gripe is that had that situation been handled differently we could be in them in my view.

Nibor