PhatWill Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 We'll likely finish this season 3-4 points off the playoffs, and my gripe is that had that situation been handled differently we could be in them in my view.NiborWhen a new manager comes in though, they have to get the players to change to their style of management and this process doesn't take over-night.It's all about expectation. Personally, when GJ took over my sole expectation was for him to keep us up and begin to rebuild in order to push for a play-off place for next season.In reality, GJ's hand-grenade (contrary to the belief of some, ROBBORED!) didn't cost us many points this season at all - and you could most definetly look to the arrest of 4 players and say they cost just as many and indeed the level of team performances after that incident were very poor.Agree that the introduction of Noble, Russell, Heywood, Carey central defence helped turn our season around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 (1)You make it sound as if Johnson has some sort of personal vendetta against Stewart (2)Johnson was pretty quick in shifting Grant Smith, Partridge, Bridges and Fortune. Why then did Stewart stay here if Johnson wanted him off the payroll? Point (1) How else do explain Johnson's treatment of Stewart? There are certainly no clear footballing reasons and even Johnson himself evaded the question when it was put to him on Twentyman.Point (2) Thats the whole point of this thread! Johnson coudn't get rid of Stewart in the same way as the others because of Stewarts high profile and fans.To get rid of Stewart earlier would have caused a huge avalanche of critism.Thats why Johnson has covered his own back now by saying that 'Marcus is still in my plans' and so on.The fact is we will all be suprised if Stewart plays for City again under Johnson and thats a great shame imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE23Red Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 That was written in good faith of Johnson doing a good job,which in fairness he started to do.It wasn't it was written a couple of days before the Swansea game when BT was still manager but don't worry about it.He then through' miss management and sledge hammer tactics got it badly wrong and since has made further errors.That imo deserves critism.Next season Johnson will start with clean sheet and I will not slate him as I have this season.That said my right as a fan is to comment on tactics,team selection and substitutions - which I will do...I'm sorry but that is very weak.What seems like a simple fundamental principle from the moral high ground is okay to be preached to others but doesn't apply to the voice of reason? Okay you think he got it wrong but surely as a fan you should support the manager regardless of whether you rate him or not!And the crazy thing is you go on blindly criticising him when he is doing a far better job than a man you blindly failed to criticise. Funny how in the absence of a single bad result to prompt you this month the focus of your frenzy has shifted to his media handling.Do you think your summary of his tenure is fair and balanced? That he has taken us from the relegation zone to mid-table by mismanagement, sledge hammer tactics and further mistakes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Maesknoll Red Posted March 23, 2006 Admin Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 We'll likely finish this season 3-4 points off the playoffs, and my gripe is that had that situation been handled differently we could be in them in my view.Nibor An equally valid viewpoint is that we could still be languishing in the bottom four without the short sharp shock of the 'hand grenade' and the transforming of players into "professional athletes". The team are noticeably fitter and are playing with an attitude that is good to watch, that may well not have been achieved with a different approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatWill Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Robbored - could you add this quote from YOU, to your signature:--------------------------------------------------------------------The 'Voice of Reason' (stop laughing!) Sept 7th, 2005My view is that we as fans should support manager regardless of of whether we rate him or not - after all the job is hard enough without the fans making it even harder.--------------------------------------------------------------------I believe it would some up quite nicely what a complete idiot you are, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Do you think your summary of his tenure is fair and balanced? That he has taken us from the relegation zone to mid-table by mismanagement, sledge hammer tactics and further mistakes? You are missing the point - which is that City could have been in with a realsitic shout of the play-offs if Johnson hadn't led the club to a record run of defeats which imo was brought about by his mis-management.Just 5 or 6 points from those 15 lost points would have meant that there would have been something to play for now.Instead we are looking at mid-table finish - wow! I believe it would some up quite nicely what a complete idiot you are, thanks! I see you are resorting to personal abuse again..what is it with you? Don't you know how to debate properly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Maesknoll Red Posted March 23, 2006 Admin Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 You are missing the point - which is that City could have been in with a realsitic shout of the play-offs if Johnson hadn't led the club to a record run of defeats which imo was brought about by his mis-management.Just 5 or 6 points from those 15 lost points would have meant that there would have been something to play for now.Instead we are looking at mid-table finish - wow! "Could" - Pure conjecture on your part Robbo, we will never know what our position (better or worse) would have been with a different approach.The approach that has been used certainly seems to have worked wonders for Orr & Woodman, I fully expected to see Woodman released, but GJ has certainly brought him on in leaps & bounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE23Red Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 You are missing the pointNo I'm not. I know what your point is and I disagree with it. The two are different.City could have been in with a realsitic shout of the play-offs if Johnson hadn't led the club to a record run of defeats which imo was brought about by his mis-management.Just 5 or 6 points from those 15 lost points would have meant that there would have been something to play for now.Instead we are looking at mid-table finish - wow! Not even you thought the play-offs were possible after the Forest game, and you don't think the squad is good enough to go up next season. So your assertion that we 'could have been in with a realistic shout of the play-offs' is a bit like saying a miracle could have happened.So yes I agree the slim chance of going up was lost. Do you agree that a few of months down the line from him taking a no-nonsense approach with the players we are in better shape than when he joined? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 "Could" - Pure conjecture on your part Robbo, we will never know what our position (better or worse) would have been with a different approach.The approach that has been used certainly seems to have worked wonders for Orr & Woodman, I fully expected to see Woodman released, but GJ has certainly brought him on in leaps & bounds. So you don't agree that 5 or 6 points from a possible 15 could have been possible?I agree whole heartedly about Orr and Woodman.They have improved tremendously but surely its conjecture to give the credit to Johnson.We don't know whether they would have improved just as much under any manager..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatWill Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 I agree whole heartedly about Orr and Woodman.They have improved tremendously but surely its conjecture to give the credit to Johnson.We don't know whether they would have improved just as much under any manager..... Yes we do in the case of Orr. Johnson sat Orr down and told him to sort himself out and give up the drink. Or maybe it's just coincidence that Orr has been in inspirational form since then...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Maesknoll Red Posted March 23, 2006 Admin Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 So you don't agree that 5 or 6 points from a possible 15 could have been possible?I agree whole heartedly about Orr and Woodman.They have improved tremendously but surely its conjecture to give the credit to Johnson.We don't know whether they would have improved just as much under any manager..... 5 or 6 points could have been possible, but we may not have taken so many points in the games since xmas, like I have said, it's all speculation. Woodman had been loaned out by both the previous managers, had failed to impress when he did play and was also alledged to be one of the 'social' crowd. Whether he would have improved under any manager other than Johnson ?? - the only indication is that Wilson, Tinnion & Rosenior (Torquay) all failed to get him producing the form he's showing now.GJ can only truely be judged towards the end of next season, but you must be able to see some good coming out of his tenure. The refusal to pay over inflated prices for strikers in January, securing McCammon on a pay per play deal, the physical and mental fitness now evident on the pitch, all these things have been missing for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC_Dan Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 So you don't agree that 5 or 6 points from a possible 15 could have been possible?I agree whole heartedly about Orr and Woodman.They have improved tremendously but surely its conjecture to give the credit to Johnson.We don't know whether they would have improved just as much under any manager..... The whole damned argument is conjecture! If Danny Wilson had dropped a hand grenade when Lee Peacock fell down the stairs, maybe we'd be top of the Championship by now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrocks Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 I blame Bros for this. If they had shifted a few more units of their second album, Scott would have a few more quid and we would be in the Prem right now. Damn you Matt and Luke! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunley Legend Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Point (1) How else do explain Johnson's treatment of Stewart? There are certainly no clear footballing reasons and even Johnson himself evaded the question when it was put to him on Twentyman.Point (2) Thats the whole point of this thread! Johnson coudn't get rid of Stewart in the same way as the others because of Stewarts high profile and fans.To get rid of Stewart earlier would have caused a huge avalanche of critism.Thats why Johnson has covered his own back now by saying that 'Marcus is still in my plans' and so on.The fact is we will all be suprised if Stewart plays for City again under Johnson and thats a great shame imo.I wouldn't be half as surprised as you and many others for the following reasons:-1) Stewart does not have to go anywhere and unless a club comes in with a silly offer I would be surprised if he would uproot for the last couple of years of his playing career.2) City have a good track record in putting older players through coaching courses which would surely be a natural progression for Stewart.3) If Stewart does the business at Preston and also in pre-season for us I don't think Johnson would be so silly to let a previous argument affect his chances of getting some goals next season.4) In my opinion, one of the reasons Johnson let Stewart go is so that he can get the first team football he needs whilst we can give Benyon and Williams some experience before the end of the season without putting Stewart's nose out of joint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 We'll likely finish this season 3-4 points off the playoffs, and my gripe is that had that situation been handled differently we could be in them in my view.Just like the "softly-softly" approach that has Birmingham sitting top of the Premiership Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Just like the "softly-softly" approach that has Birmingham sitting top of the Premiership You'll have to explain that one Ron..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 You'll have to explain that one Ron..... Steve Bruce said after the match on Tuesday, "I've never thrown a cup in my life and I don't plan to start now" - he doesn't get at his players, he doesn't shout at them, and they have just succumbed to a 7-0 defeat at the hands of Liverpool.Does that not tell you something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunley Legend Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Steve Bruce said after the match on Tuesday, "I've never thrown a cup in my life and I don't plan to start now" - he doesn't get at his players, he doesn't shout at them, and they have just succumbed to a 7-0 defeat at the hands of Liverpool.Does that not tell you something Yes. They have a suspect back-four! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Yes. They have a suspect back-four!As did we, 7-1 at Swansea, remember? Carey, who most accept is (since the rollocking!) a solid defender, Keogh, who has done very well when in the first team, and Fortune... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Every manager's different, and in a way it's lottery if the new manager's methods will be accepted by the players early doors. Robbored and others will argue that City's successive defeats were down to rank bad management, whereas I feel it was just a clash of styles that led to already mentally unstable players (as opposed to fully focussed sportsmen) underperforming (not-to-mention other factors - discipline, injuries etc.).Fortunately Gary Johnson's methods were, after a couple months, taken on board by the majority of the squad and I suspect the players will someday express their approval of the hard line approach. Anyway, back to Steve Bruce. His methods have worked for Birmingham City in the past, but for whatever reason, and I suspect there's a complex mix of them, they're having the kind of nightmare run that we suffered under both Tins and GJ this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwicolin Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 all i will say that it takes two people to have a fall outand that if there is anything into it they should bothhave there heads banged together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE23Red Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 You'll have to explain that one Ron..... Avoiding the difficult questions and taking the easy shots again Robbored? Look back up the thread and you'll find a couple of my posts have direct and as yet unanswered questions.Do the decent thing as I'm desperate to know what the voice of reason has to say...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunley Legend Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 As did we, 7-1 at Swansea, remember? Carey, who most accept is (since the rollocking!) a solid defender, Keogh, who has done very well when in the first team, and Fortune...To be fair Ron, I think a lot of the transformation in our back four has been down to hard work on the training ground more than simply reacting to a rollicking. Examples are that the full backs now seem to cover the central defenders whenever they get dragged out of position, a corner to the opposition is no longer as good as a penalty and the back four now move as a unit meaning no-one is getting left behind and playing opposition forwards onside. To get to that level takes hours and hours of work on the training ground and was not happening a few months ago. Carey has been outstanding over the last couple of months and I would go as far to say that on current form there isn't a better defender in the division. Woodman and Orr have improved beyond all recognition, Heywood was playing well before injury and Fontaine looks a pretty good player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 To be fair Ron, I think a lot of the transformation in our back four has been down to hard work on the training ground more than simply reacting to a rollicking.And it is well documented that the up-step & longer sessions on the training ground has come since GJ arrived Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted March 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 Do you think your summary of his tenure is fair and balanced? That he has taken us from the relegation zone to mid-table by mismanagement, sledge hammer tactics and further mistakes? I assume this is the question you want me to answer?(1) I don't know that I am making a 'summary' of Johnson tenure.I've commented on the obvious mistakes he's made and the fact that he wasted the season by the end of November.I've also commented on his spin around the Stewart saga as well as his dodgy loan signings.But...my comments are not all critical.I've praised Johnson for signing Noble.I've also praised the fact that he wants the team to play football.Some of the stuff produced under Johnson has been a joy to watch.He's also stuck with the youngsters like Skuse and Cotterill.(2)When Johnson took over he had 37 games left - plenty to have got City up the table and challengeing for a play-of spot.Sadly mid-table is about as good as it will get this season and that with the players he inherited and the one he signed that just ain't good enough for me.Good enough for some maybe.....If I was writing Johnson end of term report I'd say 'has the potential to do well but needs to work on certain aspects of the subject and should have done better' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolman Block B Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 All very boring now chaps, lets move on..........wheres pub3000 and his tank brigade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunley Legend Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 And it is well documented that the up-step & longer sessions on the training ground has come since GJ arrived I agree. And apparently the training is more interesting and varied for the players also. And I would imagine many of them have never been as fit in their entire careers. Which is why I believe that Johnson can turn this club around because once you get the current players believing in your methods then it is far easier for new players to come in and take them on board as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ron Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 (2)When Johnson took over he had 37 games left - plenty to have got City up the table and challengeing for a play-of spot.Sadly mid-table is about as good as it will get this season and that with the players he inherited and the one he signed that just ain't good enough for me.Good enough for some maybe.....And city were in such a great state to move up the table that with one swish of his magic wand he could have done it in a moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozo Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 (2)When Johnson took over he had 37 games left - plenty to have got City up the table and challengeing for a play-of spot.Sadly mid-table is about as good as it will get this season and that with the players he inherited and the one he signed that just ain't good enough for me.Good enough for some maybe.....That's an issue of expectations, and mine differ vastly from yours. I'd also argue that promotion this season would have been too soon. I don't recall your praise of Johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SE23Red Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 I assume this is the question you want me to answer?(1) I don't know that I am making a 'summary' of Johnson tenure.I've commented on the obvious mistakes he's made and the fact that he wasted the season by the end of November.I've also commented on his spin around the Stewart saga as well as his dodgy loan signings.But...my comments are not all critical.I've praised Johnson for signing Noble.I've also praised the fact that he wants the team to play football.Some of the stuff produced under Johnson has been a joy to watch.He's also stuck with the youngsters like Skuse and Cotterill.(2)When Johnson took over he had 37 games left - plenty to have got City up the table and challengeing for a play-of spot.Sadly mid-table is about as good as it will get this season and that with the players he inherited and the one he signed just ain't good enough for me.If I was writing Johnson end of term report I'd say 'has the potential to do well but needs to work on certain aspects of the subject and should have done better'Everything you have said so far suggests he has fallen short of your expectations which is purely a subjective thing and if you seriously expected play-offs when he came in then I'd say it was your expectation level and not his performance that has led to your belief that it has not been good enough.As long as we keep improving I'll be happy. I've seen improvement so far, and scope for more next season so have no reason to doubt that we have a good manager to take us forward.The question I wanted you to answer is simply do you think we are better off now than when he joined? So as you are in the mood for answering.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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