Thankyou To The Numskulls In Dolman Block A

[Dolman Block B]

Arny I took your comments out of context then mate and I apologise.

I should bloody hope so Miss Marie, and yer xmas pressie has gone out the window

[Nibor]

no one is trying to excuse it or trivialize it

Several posters, including you, have done both in this thread.

[Dolman Block B]

Do that and I get accused of turning a blind eye and shying away from the issue.

Belive me I've just about had enough of this forum and trying to please everyone.

Last night I went out and enjoyed myself, remembered PMR and came back to world war 3 this morning.

Sometimes its a wonder why we bother..

Why do you bother?

Because yer feking good at what you do mucker!!!!

Live with it.

[greenun]

You've just got to laugh, tbh.

It's a bit of banter, it's a laugh

What you call banter, I call ignorance. Banter is just an excuse for people to say what they like, when they like and use this cliche as a 'get out of jail free card', because to them its acceptable. Especially in football grounds where the ignorant can hunt in packs and feel protected by their numbers. Safe in the knowledge that stewards, not security guards, won't intervene because there's too many to deal with. Of course, they'd never shout such abuse in the street, because its a criminal offence. Outside the pack and the protection of the stands, the beer and the lager, the banter, oh the banter!

Well, I've got news for you chaps. The real racists are laughing at you. Yes laughing and splitting their sides whilst peeing down their legs with mirth, because you're doing their work for them.. The real racists, with an agenda and a real hatred for non-whites. They really love you and your banter because you think its acceptable and until the scales fall from your eyes it'll carry on. Racism.

[bartolona]

Maybe someone can draw up a list of what is acceptable and what isn't because I'm getting confused.

So Argie is alright?

taffy is alright?

paki is a no no?

pakistani?

welshie?

jock?

paddy?

yank?

gashead?

sh*thead?

[ashtonphil]

What you call banter, I call ignorance. Banter is just an excuse for people to say what they like, when they like and use this cliche as a 'get out of jail free card', because to them its acceptable. Especially in football grounds where the ignorant can hunt in packs and feel protected by their numbers. Safe in the knowledge that stewards, not security guards, won't intervene because there's too many to deal with. Of course, they'd never shout such abuse in the street, because its a criminal offence. Outside the pack and the protection of the stands, the beer and the lager, the banter, oh the banter!

Well, I've got news for you chaps. The real racists are laughing at you. Yes laughing and splitting their sides whilst peeing down their legs with mirth, because you're doing their work for them.. The real racists, with an agenda and a real hatred for non-whites. They really love you and your banter because you think its acceptable and until the scales fall from your eyes it'll carry on. Racism.

Hear Hear.... I could not agree more with this statement. Back to this issue again. If you don't do anything about it, it will carry on..It is not and never will be acceptable in society and shouldn't be at a football ground either. For goodness sake tell a steward or even a policeman...

RANT OVER....

[Alex_BCFC]

Maybe someone can draw up a list of what is acceptable and what isn't because I'm getting confused.

So Argie is alright?

taffy is alright?

paki is a no no?

pakistani?

welshie?

jock?

paddy?

yank?

gashead?

sh*thead?

It is sometimes fairly difficult but knowing that Paki is unacceptable is farily common knowledge.

[WhistleHappy]

Oh bloody hell, not wishing to undermine the serious nature of this thread in any way but blimey everytime I log on its on top(or thereabouts) of the thread list.... surely enoughs enough now? -everyone & his dog has had a say by now... its gone around in circles for hours & hours, those morons who started the whole thing off with their pathetic chanting in the Dolman must (if they can read) & have looked in on Otib be delighted with the furore they've caused..

Stop giving them the opportunity to revel in their notoriety & lets all shut the **** up about it - we all know whats right & whats wrong... if it happens again report it as you see fit at the time & get a stop put to it.

Interesting & well thought out points made by Green'un towards the end, sums it all up nicely... so lets move on & let the topic quietly slip away now eh?

Or maybe its time to delete the lot before we all go flipping mad...

[All Those Wasted Years]

racism is only the colour of your skin (in a loose term), not about what country your from. therefore we would need to know what was said exactly before can call these people racists. Taking the piss outa the welsh is not racism, however if 'id rather be a paki than a taffy' was infact chanted then i agree things like this should not be tolerated. its just shows the stupidity of some of our fellow fans.

I agree that such chants should never be tolerated. I disagree, however, with your understanding of what racism is.

I understand racism to mean making physical or cultural differences between people into a basis for treating them differently. This can involve skin colour, or language, or nationality, or religion. Racism is a way of diverting people's attention from the causes of their problems, and finding a "scapegoat" in some other group.

Outside the small ranks of organised fascists, most racism today, as we saw Saturday afternoon, is shallow and deeply contradictory.

[dezgimed]

All of you who heard this and were offended, what did the culprits say when you confronted them on Sat?

Out of interest...

[Olé]

Paki is just a shortened version of Pakistani - its literal meaning is 'the pure' - so why should anyone be afraid of being called pure? A native from Kazakhstan is a Kazakh, someone from Uzbekistan is an Uzbek; so why is someone from Pakistan not allowed to be called a Paki?

I'm grateful to the moderators and those involved with the forum for resurrecting this thread, I am a firm believer that if you give some people enough rope, they will eventually hang themselves and its useful to know who all the apologists for racists are.

On the specific point above, something which apologists for racism consistently fail to understand is that it's not about the meaning of the word, words ARE harmless, but it is the history associated with the word which makes them no longer acceptable to use.

The 'N' word is bound up in years of slavery, violence and inhumanity, followed by racism and apartheid. It's right that black people do not tolerate anyone else using that word any longer, to use it is to condone the suffering which their race suffered.

The 'P' word has been used by racists for decades, daubed on the side of buildings, shouted at families when firebombs were flying through shop windows. It is also right that Asian people do not tolerate any white person using that word any longer.

Both words mentioned above are typical of racist attacks. People have been kicked to death with those words being the last thing they hear. To think that it is simply being 'PC' to not want those words used in any form at Ashton Gate is ridiculous.

And anyone who doesn't understand the underlying meaning and power associated with use of such words by white people, really isn't responsible or intelligent enough to be joining in with chanting. Most of you wouldn't sing the same song about black people.

Anyway, as I said at the time, I am not upset, in the over-sensitive 'keyboard-warrior' way some idiots have laughably claimed is the case. I am angry. I am angry because I believe anyone chanting in this way is effectively sticking two fingers up at some of us.

I will try and make this comparison as simple as possible by saying that to me, this is no different to being cut up on the road. It is the feeling of anger that other people have so little consideration they feel they can do as they please and to hell with the rest of us.

In specific terms - I look around Ashton Gate and don't see a lot of Asian people, certainly not in keeping with other places in Bristol. In the nineties I brought several Asian mates to quite a few games. I brought my dad also a couple of times, who is 100% Asian.

In view of what I heard several times a few seasons ago, and then again on Saturday, I would be embarrassed and ashamed to take any of these people to Ashton Gate and then hear 20 or 30 white men singing the P word. I certainly would never bring my old man.

It's ridiculous because 99% of City fans are the best bunch you could hope to meet in the world, but because of 20-30 morons it isn't easy or comfortable to impress upon a section of our city that Ashton Gate is somewhere to go and be treated with basic respect.

So, and this is the bloody point, people like me have to put up with listening to crap that would deter our own friends and family from ever coming to City, and which abuses our own race, because some of you believe that thats just what these people always do.

Well b***ocks to it. Some people cut you up in the street. Some people barge into you in a pub. Some people push past you at a bar. I'll bet it irritates every single one of you. The lack of respect and consideration insults you. This is no different whatsoever.

There is nothing PC about this. There is nothing liberal about this. It is plain RESPECT for fellow supporters. If you can't open your mouth and support your team without showing a lack of respect for someone on your own side, then you really are pathetic.

[giles_23_bcfc]

racism is only the colour of your skin (in a loose term), not about what country your from. therefore we would need to know what was said exactly before can call these people racists. Taking the piss outa the welsh is not racism, however if 'id rather be a paki than a taffy' was infact chanted then i agree things like this should not be tolerated. its just shows the stupidity of some of our fellow fans.

So calling someone a "welsh ####" or whatever isnt racist? Well, technically it isnt as its stating a fact BUT in this day and age it is classed as being racist.

Racism is out of order full stop. Whether it be about skin colour, nationality, belief or whatever. Racism is racism is racism.

If you went on holiday and there happened to be alot of Scots, Welsh and Irish, and they were to call you an english #### or something along those lines, how would you take that? Would you respond with "I'd rather be English than Scottish/Welsh/Irish (whichever country said person was from)"? If so, then that's racist aswell.

[Henry]

I'm grateful to the moderators and those involved with the forum for resurrecting this thread, I am a firm believer that if you give some people enough rope, they will eventually hang themselves and its useful to know who all the apologists for racists are.

On the specific point above, something which apologists for racism consistently fail to understand is that it's not about the meaning of the word, words ARE harmless, but it is the history associated with the word which makes them no longer acceptable to use.

The 'N' word is bound up in years of slavery, violence and inhumanity, followed by racism and apartheid. It's right that black people do not tolerate anyone else using that word any longer, to use it is to condone the suffering which their race suffered.

The 'P' word has been used by racists for decades, daubed on the side of buildings, shouted at families when firebombs were flying through shop windows. It is also right that Asian people do not tolerate any white person using that word any longer.

Both words mentioned above are typical of racist attacks. People have been kicked to death with those words being the last thing they hear. To think that it is simply being 'PC' to not want those words used in any form at Ashton Gate is ridiculous.

And anyone who doesn't understand the underlying meaning and power associated with use of such words by white people, really isn't responsible or intelligent enough to be joining in with chanting. Most of you wouldn't sing the same song about black people.

Anyway, as I said at the time, I am not upset, in the over-sensitive 'keyboard-warrior' way some idiots have laughably claimed is the case. I am angry. I am angry because I believe anyone chanting in this way is effectively sticking two fingers up at some of us.

I will try and make this comparison as simple as possible by saying that to me, this is no different to being cut up on the road. It is the feeling of anger that other people have so little consideration they feel they can do as they please and to hell with the rest of us.

In specific terms - I look around Ashton Gate and don't see a lot of Asian people, certainly not in keeping with other places in Bristol. In the nineties I brought several Asian mates to quite a few games. I brought my dad also a couple of times, who is 100% Asian.

In view of what I heard several times a few seasons ago, and then again on Saturday, I would be embarrassed and ashamed to take any of these people to Ashton Gate and then hear 20 or 30 white men singing the P word. I certainly would never bring my old man.

It's ridiculous because 99% of City fans are the best bunch you could hope to meet in the world, but because of 20-30 morons it isn't easy or comfortable to impress upon a section of our city that Ashton Gate is somewhere to go and be treated with basic respect.

So, and this is the bloody point, people like me have to put up with listening to crap that would deter our own friends and family from ever coming to City, and which abuses our own race, because some of you believe that thats just what these people always do.

Well b***ocks to it. Some people cut you up in the street. Some people barge into you in a pub. Some people push past you at a bar. I'll bet it irritates every single one of you. The lack of respect and consideration insults you. This is no different whatsoever.

There is nothing PC about this. There is nothing liberal about this. It is plain RESPECT for fellow supporters. If you can't open your mouth and support your team without showing a lack of respect for someone on your own side, then you really are pathetic.

Just out of interest, did you or anyone else say anything to these people at the time?

If you went on holiday and there happened to be alot of Scots, Welsh and Irish, and they were to call you an english #### or something along those lines, how would you take that? Would you respond with "I'd rather be English than Scottish/Welsh/Irish (whichever country said person was from)"? If so, then that's racist aswell.

No its not.

[giles_23_bcfc]

No its not.

Reason? Or did you just fancy disagreeing with me again?

[Henry]

There is a case for the other person being racist.

But I think saying 'I'd rather be english then...' is a good answer because its not aggressive and you are just sticking up for nationality and country.

Is okay to disagree with you Sir Toad?

[giles_23_bcfc]

There is a case for the other person being racist.

But I think saying 'I'd rather be english then...' is a good answer because its not aggressive and you are just sticking up for nationality and country.

Is okay to disagree with you Sir Toad?

It may be a good answer yes, but in this day and age it is classed as racist by people. Personally i don't find it racist but others do and whether we like it or not, its what they think and believe.

Yes young chap its fine to disagree with me with a good valid argument.

[Henry]

If someone overheard me having this conversation and thought I was being racist, then I'd tell them where to go.

If something is not racist but someone starts to get up right then thats their problem

[dezgimed]

All of you who heard this and were offended, what did the culprits say when you confronted them on Sat?

Out of interest...

Anyone?

[Seend Red]

I think the deafen silence gives you your answer!

[slades_291]

[Red Ferret]

Anyone?

Who is stupid enough to confront 20-odd right wing pissed up football fans about their behaviour?

Theres too many nutters out there, and alot of them are the sort who would sing "I would rather be a paki than..." at a football match

[dezgimed]

Who is stupid enough to confront 20-odd right wing pissed up football fans about their behaviour?

Theres too many nutters out there, and alot of them are the sort who would sing "I would rather be a paki than..." at a football match

Thats the thing though, pissed up hardcore Nazi fascists they arent.

Most likely a random scattering of teens or a load of blokes who don't realise what they're saying.

If nobody says anything to them, stewards, police, fellow supporters etc. How are they to know they're in the wrong and offending people?

Not defending them but its worth pondering.

[Alex_BCFC]

Thats the thing though, pissed up hardcore Nazi fascists they arent.

Most likely a random scattering of teens or a load of blokes who don't realise what they're saying.

If nobody says anything to them, stewards, police, fellow supporters etc. How are they to know they're in the wrong and offending people?

Not defending them but its worth pondering.

According to the ignorance on this thread about people thinking the term Paki is OK, then you might be right sadly.

[Guest Red Nee Tot]

it's nothing to do with that? paki is as widely a used term as taff

someone from England calling someone from Wales a taff is very common

much like

someone from india calling someone from pakistan a paki is very common

I don't think you understand at all. Both these comments are insulting and in my opinion you are either very ignorant or very stupid.

[richwwtk]

Confronting these people would have been suicidally stupid, as anybody ignorant enough to be making these chants is also ignorant enough to respond with violence when challenged. You'd probably be branded a 'Taffy Loving Poof' and as such deserve a good kicking in their eyes.

Reporting it to a steward would have been about the only option but the chances of anything resulting from that report would have been minimal.

Not that I heard the chant myself mind.

[Seend Red]

Who is stupid enough to confront 20-odd right wing pissed up football fans about their behaviour?

This is exactly the sort of nonsense which blows this whole discussion out of proportion.

We are talking about a small minority of pubescent teenagers egging each other on who should, but don't know any better! They need to be educated and not condemned as rascists!... maybe Dolls and Nibor could hold some evening classes in the DEH to show these indidviduals the way to go in life.

I didn't see any blokes on Saturday with shaven heads with swastika tattoos on their skulls, did you? Off course they're wrong to chant this nonsense but let not make this out to be anything more than it was.

[bh_red]

This is exactly the sort of nonsense which blows this whole discussion out of proportion.

We are talking about a small minority of pubescent teenagers egging each other on who should, but don't know any better! They need to be educated and not condemned as rascists!... maybe Dolls and Nibor could hold some evening classes in the DEH to show these indidviduals the way to go in life.

I didn't see any blokes on Saturday with shaven heads with swastika tattoos on their skulls, did you? Off course they're wrong to chant this nonsense but let not make this out to be anything more than it was.

yep,totally agree, mass over-react on here as always, some people who in all honestly take themselves too seriously, people don't need to confront anyone, just tell your nearest senior steward and let them deal with it, if nothing happens mention it to the club directly and mention that you told which senior steward, it's that easy, don't just come on here moaning about it as an after-thought, because it achives nothing in reality as the people who were signing it probably can't even switch a PC on.

either way.....if they could just sing........I'd rather be a muslim than a taff.........in future, it would be much better for all concerned...... :sofa:

[zookeeper]

Should people really need to tell a group of people that their racist chanting is not allowed?

Before reading this topic I would have assumed that nearly everyone would have agreed but apparently not.

No individual should have to stand up against a group of people and defend what they believe in and to base a whole argument on the fact that people didn't is ridiculous. I wouldn't go into a racially dominated area and have the balls to stand up to people if they were insulting people of my race or creed, nationality or gender. I'd keep my head down.

Maybe instead of accusing people about what they should have done maybe we need to think about what should be done if this happens in the future. Personally in that environment I'd like to think that I would have the strength of character to do something about it if I heard it in the future but from a previous experience of confronting a fellow fan I know that it is an emotive subject and one that can quite easily lead to a physical confrontation. Maybe more sensibly I'd also like to think that as a collective group of fans we would stamp it out and do it quickly.

A quick rendition of some songs to shut them up (maybe someone can make one up), spontaneous booing or them being frogmarched out of the ground would be things that I would like to see.

[Dollymarie]

For what its worth

According to UN International Conventions, "the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life." [1] This definition does not make any difference between prosecutions based on ethnicity and race, in part because the distinction between the ethnicity and race remains debatable among anthropologists [2] According to British law, racial group means "any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin".

[bartolona]

So all the sheep shagger chants and stand up if you hate the Welsh is racist?