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The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)


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On 14/09/2020 at 07:50, AnAstonVillafan said:

Those wage figures are all over place. Gregg Evans needs to go back to writing for the Birmingham Evening Mail. If you add up the estimated players wages, you get nowhere near £93m or £65m.
Note also that John Terry gets an approx. £75,000 a week retainer so there is the possiblity that staff wages are included in his figures.

We've been prudent on wages since our return to the Premier League but it's now acknowledged that to compete we are going to need an uplift in quality which means paying players more money. Most difficult aspect is removal of deadwood in the squad.

 

Why should MPs be asking question about HS2 compensation? In my mind it is fair and correct.



 

I think it's total wage bill, but certain bits won't count towards P&S costs- most will though.

How it comes to £25m I find hard to believe- once promotion bonuses added in it was around £93m I think- all in the accounts but it was certainly pushing towards or around £90m.

I mean I've an open mind on that- Purslow seemed quite worried about relegation that's for sure! During lockdown etc- fairly sure he described it as a 'catastrophe'. Not exclusive to Aston Villa of course but OTOH was a tad different to Norwich who seemed to have budgeted for it.

Depends if there is another big whack in the 2019/20 accounts in the P&L- could be that profit appeared in Statement of Comprehensive Income but Cash Flow appears over multiple.

One thing for sure though, Aston Villa got privileged access with that. Most people facing issues with HS2 do not get such privileged access.

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Elsewhere, some Sheffield Wednesday fans are certainly delusional.

Few trot out the line of the points deduction being put back into prior seasons! :wacko:

Probably a few possible outcomes but that one feels the least sensible of all! ⬇️

https://www.owlstalk.co.uk/forums/topic/292348-points-deduction-peoples-thoughts/

This poster...raises some interesting points but overlooks a significant and key part of the EFL Regulations...

Quote

The minus 12 may be left in play; If so I don't see anything other than further litigation. However, all parties will be aware that this will impact on future season/seasons so the appeal board would not wish to pursue a route that would take their client (The EFL)  down a route with significant admin and financial risks,

 

Compromise deal for me would be a fine or minus 3, EFL would be hoping for -6 + a fine.

See no grounds for reduction myself.

Poster, you might want to read the Arbitration Section of the EFL Regs- a) It has to be via Arbitration, it's part of Terms of Membership and b) Arbitration Panels cannot award Punitive Damages.

You along with every other club, will have signed an Agreement in Writing to Arbitrate- Punitive Damages feels off the table.

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Listening to a good Podcast, by a- sensible- Aston Villa fan oddly enough.

Dave Jordan, YorkshireAVFC- I remember him on Twitter. Didn't agree with everything he posted but he was very good. About to listen to it- dare say he still is!

https://villatrust.org.uk/the-villa-trust-podcast-3/

It's PL and quite Aston Villa specific. 

His facts and figures so far are slightly out of whack though, broke even for P&S doesn't sound quite right- depends how you add it up! Swiss Ramble and Kieran Maguire had different interpretations. He's right though about decent headroom I expect...£240m spending though, dunno about that??

I query some of his figures and I dare say the EFL might have queried some aspects of Aston Villa's figures under Parry too. His estimated losses net of Covid but inclusive of all the usual allowable costs was £20.5m in 2019/20.

There also are some interesting bits of the regulations which I never paid much attention to on Sunday. ⬇️

Quote

Guidance

The Executive will in due course consider the Annual Accounts for the Accounting Reference Period in respect of which information pursuant to Rule 2.2.2 is submitted and in particular examine whether any material variances indicate that the estimated financial information was not prepared in accordance with Rule 2.2.2(b).

2.2A In respect of Season 2019/20:

2.2A.1  the deadline for submission of the information required by Rule 2.2 shall be 26 August 2020; and

2.2A.2  there shall be no obligation on each Club to submit the information referred to in Rule 2.2.3.

Quote

Guidance

The review of Clubs’ P&S Calculations for 2018/19 against actual figures in Clubs’ Annual Accounts (and supporting information) will still be undertaken by the EFL. The adoption of Rule 2.2A.2 does not release any Club from liability relating to any breach of these Rules relating to Season 2018/19 or any prior Seasons. The EFL Board will continue to seek sanctions in line with the existing sanction guidelines.

You might be interested in this @Davefevs @Coppello @downendcity

Seems a sensible compromise to me, thusfar...

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My calculations are, my rough ones- and he doesn't take account or make mention of the much more restrictive UEFA limits, which will surely become an issue as and when Aston Villa qualify for Europe! UEFA will keep quite tough on it IMO. Still listening to Dave Jordan, he reckons the wage bill is now £105m!  Now that isn't so uncommon in terms of the Premier League tbh.

Anyway, some of my calculations for that particular season are:

Quote

Operating Loss before player trading and exceptional items

£83,956,000

This is before player trading ie profit on disposal and exceptional items, but seems to be inclusive of amortisation- quite possibly.

Anyway, £83,956,000 before:

Quote

Minus- Profit on disposal of player registrations

£10,598,000

Now around £73,358,000

Quote

Add Back to Expenses- Exceptional items- promotion liability

£30,000,000

Quote

Add Back to Expenses- Exceptional items- promotion related payments.

£15,808,000

Remember though, the add backs aren;t really add backs because they don't count under P&S. They cancel out therefore.

Quote

Subtract from Losses-Profit on disposal fixed assets

£36,374,000

Quote

Subtract from Losses- Exceptional operating income

£14,494,000

We are therefore on the Operating Loss before player trading and exceptional items of:

£83,956,000

Down to £73,358,000 AFTER Profit on disposal of players.

Then the Stadium Sale and the HS2 'Exceptional' (except as you and we all well know @AnAstonVillafan Exceptional it was not because it took place in successive seasons so I'd hope the EFL would have had something to say had you come back down).

Down to £22,490,000.

Then remove from that Interest Receivable of £55,000 but also add back Interest Payable and similar expenses- £641,000.

£23,076,000.

Once we factor in the allowable P&S related costs- Youth, Community etc, and fair play your club seem to be quite transparent on this in a way not many are.

Quote

Depreciation and Impairment- £4,656,000

Community Development Expenditure- £843,000

Youth Development Expenditure- £9,280,000

P&S loss for the year of £8,297,000. However I'm not sure 100% of the allowable costs stated will always count, seen estimates of P&S losses for the year of £9-10m for the year which feels somewhat more in line.

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May as well take a quick look.

As we know the new 3 year rolling period owing to Covid is 2017/18, 2018/19 and 2019/20 and 2020/21 rolled into 1 and averaged out- simplest example maybe £15m loss in 2019/20 and £20m loss in 2020/21, is a £17.5m loss for P&S.

I read somewhere that Wigan lost £20m in 2019/20- would have to trawl through and see their Hong Kong Accounts and the football segment, but it's the least of their concerns!

Birmingham- they also have their main company based in Hong Kong. What is unclear is how this Reporting Period has been extended due to Covid- I'll assume it has but if not their 2019/20 results should be out soon. They seem to be on the right road.

Reading- I think there are and will be question marks with respect to their compliance- think they need to average an £11m loss at most, net of Covid and net of allowable costs across 2019/20 and 2020/21 in order to remain compliant.

Stoke have loaned out but pressure is on to get back up- the final season of Parachute Payments!

The ongoing issues- Derby, Football League are appealing- and Sheffield Wednesday, they are appealing their verdict. Neither have yet released their accounts for 2018/19!

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Further P&S news.

Reading appear to still be under some kind of restrictions some of their fans on Twitter seem angry and to be blaming the Football League for the missing out on a loan for Roman Riquelme from Atletico. Talented youngster, sure he won't come cheap? Linked with Bournemouth.

It was totally predictable though for anyone who followed their accounts- Kia Joorabchian the super-agent who apparently helps to advise their owners was ranting on Talksport earlier about the current financial regulations. About to listen to it myself- maybe interested @Davefevs @downendcity @Coppello @chinapig @CyderInACan

Should be good!

You might also be interested @havanatopia and @The Gasbuster I remember a while ago we all queried whether they were within FFP.

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@ashton_fan

I certainly don't want to derail the other thread with FFP/P&S chat but I can outline how it's changed as a result of Covid.

Quote

(f)  in respect of Seasons 2019/20 and 2020/21 only, COVID-19 Costs.

As we can see, this is aspect one of the change- went from rolling 3 years to taking in 2017/18 and 2018/19 as usual, but instead of the most recent season being the assessment point this adds up the two and then splits them in half.

Plus.

Quote

1.1.7  COVID-19 Costs means lost revenues and/or exceptional costs incurred by a Club that are directly attributable to the COVID-19 pandemic and that are identified and calculated in accordance with such guidance as issued by the Board;

I'd trust the EFL under Parry to make a better fist of it than if Harvey still ran it! This is no green light to go on a spending spree- wonder if a few clubs will be caught out by UEFA if they've spent significantly without making good cutbacks in other areas and sales and qualify for Europe within the given period. I digress!

Quote

1.1.11  P&S Calculation means, save as indicated below, the aggregation of a Club’s Adjusted Earnings Before Tax for T, T-1 and T-2. In respect of Season 2020/21 only, the P&S Calculation shall be the aggregation of:

That is the usual- current season=T, last season=T-1 and 2 seasons back=T-2. In other words, 2019/20, 2018/19 and 2017/18- supposedly assessed in March but seems scope to do it retrospectively as in the past 3 seasons- so for tis season it'd be 2018/19, 2019/20 and the 3 years to 2020/21 assessed in March 2021 but...

Now...

Quote

(a)  the mean of the Adjusted Earnings Before Tax of T and T-1; and

(b)  the Adjusted Earnings Before Tax of T-2; and

(c)  the Adjusted Earnings Before Tax of T-3;

2017/18, 2018/19 and then the mean of 2020/21 and 2019/20- submitted in March! Given they would have actual figures for 2019/20 this should increase the chances and ability of the EFL to genuinely assess in March- they'll have 2 real results and the 50% of the real results for this rolled up period- shouldn't be difficult!

Quote

1.1.14 means the Club’s Accounting Reference Period ending in the year in which assessment pursuant to Rules 2.2 to 2.9 takes place, and:

(a)  T-1 means the Club’s Accounting Reference Period immediately preceding T;

(b)  T-2 means the Club’s Accounting Reference Period immediately preceding T-1;

(c)  T-3 means the Club’s Accounting Reference Period immediately preceding T- 2;

(d)  T+1 means the Club’s Accounting Reference Period immediately following T; and

(e)  T+2 means the Club’s Accounting Reference Period immediately following T+1.

Usually it's T, T-1 and T-2- now it's T and T-1 averaged, T-2 and T-3 standalone.

Quote

Guidance

The Executive will in due course consider the Annual Accounts for the Accounting Reference Period in respect of which information pursuant to Rule 2.2.2 is submitted and in particular examine whether any material variances indicate that the estimated financial information was not prepared in accordance with Rule 2.2.2(b).

2.2A In respect of Season 2019/20:

2.2A.1  the deadline for submission of the information required by Rule 2.2 shall be 26 August 2020; and

2.2A.2  there shall be no obligation on each Club to submit the information referred to in Rule 2.2.3.

Looks to me as if the deadline for last season was extended from March to the 26th August- Rule 2.2.3 seems to be deleted so unsure what that was.

However, it's not a free pass...

Quote

Guidance

The review of Clubs’ P&S Calculations for 2018/19 against actual figures in Clubs’ Annual Accounts (and supporting information) will still be undertaken by the EFL. The adoption of Rule 2.2A.2 does not release any Club from liability relating to any breach of these Rules relating to Season 2018/19 or any prior Seasons. The EFL Board will continue to seek sanctions in line with the existing sanction guidelines.

What I therefore find intriguing and maybe Devil is in the Detail a bit, is that does it give Statute of Limitations- maybe it gives the Football League scope to go back years analysing?? Is there Devil in the Detail?

Very helpfully, here is the P&S template of what clubs submit and what it looks like. I applaud Parry and the transparency.

appendix-5---regs-image.png

https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/appendix-5---financial-fair-play-regulations/

There's obviously more than I've put, but these are for me the relevant parts of the changes. 

PS- I suppose in light of the changes, that Template should read T-3, T-2 and Mean/Average of T-1 and T.

PPS- also forgot this bit!

Quote

3.4  In respect of Season 2020/21, the Lower Loss Threshold and Upper Loss Threshold for each Club shall be calculated based on the aggregation of the Club’s Annual Lower Loss Threshold and Annual Upper Loss Threshold for T, T-1, T-2 and T-3 as per the figures set out table in Rule 3.1 as amended by dividing those figures by 4 and then multiplied them by 3.

Unsure even I can work this bit out fully though! :unsure: 😆 Assuming that's to help get a figure for clubs who have not been consistently at this level- most notably been in both the PL and Championship but where to start...

In theory, it could even reduce the allowable upper limits for clubs across both divisions but that can't be right...Lower is easy as it's £5m regardless of division, but higher...hopefully the EFL will have it all in hand!

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21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Further P&S news.

Reading appear to still be under some kind of restrictions some of their fans on Twitter seem angry and to be blaming the Football League for the missing out on a loan for Roman Riquelme from Atletico. Talented youngster, sure he won't come cheap? Linked with Bournemouth.

It was totally predictable though for anyone who followed their accounts- Kia Joorabchian the super-agent who apparently helps to advise their owners was ranting on Talksport earlier about the current financial regulations. About to listen to it myself- maybe interested @Davefevs @downendcity @Coppello @chinapig @CyderInACan

Should be good!

Isn’t “super agent” a contradiction in terms

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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Further P&S news.

Reading appear to still be under some kind of restrictions some of their fans on Twitter seem angry and to be blaming the Football League for the missing out on a loan for Roman Riquelme from Atletico. Talented youngster, sure he won't come cheap? Linked with Bournemouth.

It was totally predictable though for anyone who followed their accounts- Kia Joorabchian the super-agent who apparently helps to advise their owners was ranting on Talksport earlier about the current financial regulations. About to listen to it myself- maybe interested @Davefevs @downendcity @Coppello @chinapig @CyderInACan

Should be good!

You might also be interested @havanatopia and @The Gasbuster I remember a while ago we all queried whether they were within FFP.

Kia not understanding the difference between Jordan saying Governance not Government.

Kia I’m sure is looking for a fast buck.

Let him “sink” £50m into Derby, Forest etc.  I reckon he’d end up with less than £50m of his outlay....although he will have dreamed off a percentage for himself.

 

Not just having a go at him because we all hate agents / 3rd party owners like this....I listened to him several years back, and not every player owned by him makes him £millions, but in Brazil for example, you can acquire player ownership so cheaply, you can play the numbers game.

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Looks like Derby and Reading- segments aka two sets of fans who don't get FFP! This thread below. 🤣

That Derby fan in particular I've seen, had a few erm robust debates  with him on Twitter over it let's say!

@Hxj forgot to tag you in the original stuff but looks like Reading have some similarly deluded or out of touch fans or at least as a proportion when it comes to the FFP stuff!

 

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At first when they had sold the stadium for £26.5m and that appeared to be it, Reading were on my meh list. £6.5m profit, despite Home Counties land value.

However that's all changed! They sold the stadium again the following year, albeit rent doubled, but sold for £37.5m and leased it back. They possibly sold the old training ground and they sold some other property.

They pocketed £3m in a loan fee for a clearly past his best Aluko- from the owners Chinese club! Could've covered the wages I guess but even so!

They were under a soft embargo in summer 2019- and promptly signed Joao and Puscas! No problem with the signings from a football POV, good players clearly but FFS.

They rejected a bid for Loader in 2019- he leaves on a free. Every little helps.

They rejected a I think £10m bid for Moore in 2018.

This summer they rejected bids for Swift- and may have rejected a bid for Meite.

Some say that they were permitted to sign Ejaria as there was some loan to buy arrangement, legally binding etc? I don't know but surmising!

Because of their decent squad they do have assets to sell- for varying reasons and levels but:

  1. Rafael- Good GK, has played in Serie A, joined on a free- sale=profit.
  2. Moore- See bid. Decent CB.
  3. Morrison- Joined on a free, not a bad Championship CB- sale=profit.
  4. Swift- Joined on free and bids rejected this summer.
  5. Meite- Good direct attacking player, why not make a profit.
  6. Ejaria- Has just joined but bet they could turn a profit.
  7. Joao- Good player- probably once Fee-Book Value=Profit.
  8. Puscas- Sought after by other clubs, Romania international- young, joined from Inter- yeah reckon you could turn a profit.

One or two more as well- Yiadom, okay full back, joined on a free=Profit. Rinomhota- Profit again, from academy.

Zero sympathy whatsoever- I still wonder if Football League were quietly trying to afford them the time to ease themselves back to balance as Howe on the board and it'd be most embarrassing to have to charge them with P&S breaches.

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Birmingham's results are out!

I'm assuming Segment result is the one to look for here- Football Club.

Quote

For the year ended 30 June 2020

Football club 

HK$’000

Segment revenue

External sales 204,395 

Results

Segment results (186,519)

For one that's in HK$, dunno if the exchange rate would be effective the date of release or the date the accounts are to- ie 30th June or 30th September.

This will of course be inclusive of the usual allowable costs, but also the Profit on disposal of players. Will surely also include some Covid allowable costs so I think they fall within their £13m target! Especially as that is now moot with the rolling up of 2 seasons into one and the Bellingham sale- as well as one or two others- that all offset losses.

As I recall, the ones to 2019 showed some revenue in UK but not HK, because it wasn't included in the latter- possibly similarities there. Point is, they seem to be on the right track and unlikely to fall foul again any time soon IMO.

Think it's about 10HK$ to the £ anyway, so nice and easy.

The other interesting aspect perhaps, is here- 3 months extension, easy- whereas in this case, in Hong Kong-Pandemic or no Pandemic, all released on time! Not only that but the segmentation is because the business is more than just a football club- yet guess what- no extension or pushing the deadlines!!

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12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Birmingham's results are out!

I'm assuming Segment result is the one to look for here- Football Club.

For one that's in HK$, dunno if the exchange rate would be effective the date of release or the date the accounts are to- ie 30th June or 30th September.

This will of course be inclusive of the usual allowable costs, but also the Profit on disposal of players. Will surely also include some Covid allowable costs so I think they fall within their £13m target! Especially as that is now moot with the rolling up of 2 seasons into one and the Bellingham sale- as well as one or two others- that all offset losses.

As I recall, the ones to 2019 showed some revenue in UK but not HK, because it wasn't included in the latter- possibly similarities there. Point is, they seem to be on the right track and unlikely to fall foul again any time soon IMO.

Think it's about 10HK$ to the £ anyway, so nice and easy.

Maguire was suggesting losses of £27m!

2678C517-334D-4251-B70A-372081A5F603.thumb.jpeg.9d433c92d80f33d5d915c8c0254f7e0f.jpeg

Bellingham’s transfer will be in next year’s accounts.  You would’ve thought that 19/20s numbers ought to result in points deduction...shouldn’t it?

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Maguire was suggesting losses of £27m!

2678C517-334D-4251-B70A-372081A5F603.thumb.jpeg.9d433c92d80f33d5d915c8c0254f7e0f.jpeg

Bellingham’s transfer will be in next year’s accounts.  You would’ve thought that 19/20s numbers ought to result in points deduction...shouldn’t it?

Thanks. Maybe I've misread it a bit then.

I'm assuming that the rollup means that the 3 years to 2020 wouldn't be assessed in isolation and those look like the headline figures- maybe the segmented results are the ones to look for, well I've done that anyway.

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1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks. Maybe I've misread it a bit then.

I'm assuming that the rollup means that the 3 years to 2020 wouldn't be assessed in isolation and those look like the headline figures- maybe the segmented results are the ones to look for, well I've done that anyway.

I thought they were on annual reviews?

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Was reading the Sheffield Wednesday forum in terms of FFP posts etc, some as well as some fans of other clubs sure are a bit deluted

Quote

Complete breakdown in relationship between Derby and the EFL by all accounts

 

EFL heirachy needs clearing out from top to bottom,  jokers 

That's a rather odd take- yes a breakdown but surely it's the Derby rep that needs clearing off the EFL board in that case! 😆

The EFL are the Governing body albeit with clubs deciding, Derby are one of many clubs

Can someone explain why the EFL relationship with Derby breaking down should lead to a clear-out of the EFL top brass? 🙃

Here's another!

Quote

Given the high stakes, clubs will continue to seek loopholes and push boundaries, it’s inevitable. We need a simplification of the rules and an end to artificially leveling the playing field and holding wealthier clubs back.

What we need is a simplification of the rules, a removal of the daft loophole or 2 that exists and correct, real-time monitoring- as in the case of the last one, is supposed to be happening anyway.

Lastly, a fan of a fellow cheating club chips in- we even get a mention in the FFP debate!

Quote

Sorry Nero, but you're talking out of your bumhole. 

 

The idea that Derby pushed for Wednesday to be punished more severely is risible. Do you think if we had any such influence over the EFL that we'd be going through this shitshow?? 

 

Gibson, Lansdown at Bristol, and the yank fool at Barnsley are the prime movers in all of this. Parry is doing their bidding, whatever the Tribunal might have said. 

 

Derby got off because the case against us was ill-conceived, badly compiled and found to be 99% testicles. The remaining 1% is an argument about the use of an amortisation method which actually makes more sense than the straight line method, is used in the PL, and which isn't outlawed by either the EFL rules or accounting standards. It's a petty vendetta, plain and simple. 

 

And the idea that the Mail puts out stories favourable to Derby would have every Derby fan weeing themselves. They've been spreading poo about us for years.

I agree with him that Derby pushing for Sheffield Wednesday to be punished more severely is fairly amusing and likely untrue though!

Anyway fans of your club, your club, Aston Villa and Reading- Birmingham are a greyer area as they seem to have been cutting back in conjunction with a smaller stadium sale than anyone else, have sold no other fixed assets etc- and were punished- fans of these 4, maybe 5 clubs are a part of the reason why the PL bailout talks are hitting issues!! Well done! :clap:

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On 30/09/2020 at 16:24, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks. Maybe I've misread it a bit then.

I'm assuming that the rollup means that the 3 years to 2020 wouldn't be assessed in isolation and those look like the headline figures- maybe the segmented results are the ones to look for, well I've done that anyway.

If anyone is interested the accounts are available at https://www1.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2020/0930/2020093001616.pdf

The loss for the company and subsidiaries is £26.5 million or thereabouts.  The reported loss for the football club is as per @Mr Popodopolous at £18.5 million.  If I was the EFL  would also be looking at the £8 million of unallocated central costs to see which ones related to football.

As to all reporting to the EFL my understanding is that all the current reporting rules apply as do all the sanctions, so if your are in, or potentially in breach, you can still for example be handed transfer embargos.  The final reckoning and any actual breach of FFP can't happen until the final 2020/21 position is agreed.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Do they know the ground doesn’t belong to the football club 👀👀👀

When the deal is close, you will probably find out it includes the Holding Co. too.  

Much, much funnier if it didn't mind .

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John Percy reckons the deal is in its advanced stages.

Spawny bastards however- spawny, spawny bastards! I hope the EFL win their appeal and get some ponts docked and there must be ZERO leeway- £39m losses, change rules quick sharp in terms of fixed asset sales, perhaps fair value rules too look at these again- maybe I'm overreacting the Coates family have megabucks yet Stoke seem to be walking the line, there are lots of rich owners at this level yet FFP is enforced to some extent.

Given that there is a charge over their assets from Dell, charges not yet cleared as per Companies House as per Gabay, how does this work then??

A small silver lining could be paying rent on Pride Park e.g. but it's £1.1m per season or so- on an £81.1m transaction FFS!

For comparison sake, and I'm a big critic of the first 3 especially:

Aston Villa- £56.7m, £2.6m per season rent. My problem there is that it does not go beyond 5 years so £10.4m rent back on a £56.7m transaction is somewhat suspect...if they return to the Football League soon, Football League should be looking at that very closely!

Reading- £750k per season on a £26.5m transaction.

This subsequently rose to £1.5m per season on a £37.5m transaction- more like it but still not feeling high enough.

Sheffield Wednesday- Purportedly, £3m per season on a £60m transaction- though we only have EFL Written Reasons to go on.

Birmingham- Theirs actually seemed low if anything, but £1.25m per season on a £22.76m transaction- low in terms of sale price I mean.

Derby though, the highest fee received, the lowest rent payable- ugh!!

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On a side note, it is NICE to see Sheffield Wednesday struggling so.

Coventry's coupon buster, albeit they have now played a game more- Sheffield Wednesday TEN points off safety at this early stage despite P8 Pts8-- I'll say no more in case I jinx but it's good to see. Nottingham Forest on 6 pts, 6 from 4 since Hughton joined- it means despite their survival level start they're as it stands more points off safety than they were after winning first game at Cardiff- then it was -9, now it's for now at least, -10!

They of course have or will be lodging appeal vs their sanction. I don't recall the last time a Football League imposed points penalty was appealed- anyone?? Certainly in modern times- could get tasty because I read that Steve Dale was informed going into 2019/20 that nobody overturned one of MY points sanctions- he didn't name names but can only assume it was someone senior in the Football League? 

Granted it was one of his rambling statements but I get the impression given the obvious bad blood between club (or maybe just Chansiri as such)?and Football League, they won't take kindly to Chansiri pushing this appeal...?

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Derby though, the highest fee received, the lowest rent payable- ugh!!

I don't pretend to either have followed the events closely. or to have an understanding of the accounting but..

What would stop the take over Co. also buying the ground holding Co. at a cut price under some pretence or another. Then incorporating it into the "new" DCFC company, then next year selling the ground again. Unless they impose penalty's, and stick to it, what's the point of the rules in the first place.

 

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On 31/10/2020 at 09:12, 1960maaan said:

I don't pretend to either have followed the events closely. or to have an understanding of the accounting but..

What would stop the take over Co. also buying the ground holding Co. at a cut price under some pretence or another. Then incorporating it into the "new" DCFC company, then next year selling the ground again. Unless they impose penalty's, and stick to it, what's the point of the rules in the first place.

 

Bit topical, now the League Arbitration Panel have basically halved the penalty for Sheffield Wednesday- yet these Independent panel are unpredictable, the Football League are due to appeal Derby's amortisation sometime this Autumn, after Derby were found innocent of each! Maybe failings in the case by the Football League played a role?

As it stands, nothing perhaps- rule change would be needed for a start, but we'd hope the Football League would be on the case as of the first taking charges out against the ground occurred- I'd quite like them to block the takeover for a start if at all possible.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Bit topical, now the League Arbitration Panel have basically halved the penalty for Sheffield Wednesday- yet these Independent panel are unpredictable, the Football League are due to appeal Derby's amortisation sometime this Autumn, after Derby were found innocent of each! Maybe failings in the case by the Football League played a role?

As it stands, nothing perhaps- rule change would be needed for a start, but we'd hope the Football League would be on the case as of the first taking charges out against the ground occurred- I'd quite like them to block the takeover for a start if at all possible.

Why do you want the EFL to block the takeover ? 

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9 hours ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

Why do you want the EFL to block the takeover ? 

I'd like to say- the moral high ground, Sportswashing by Despots bad- but mainly it's because I wish ill on that club! 😃  There's a few clubs that aren't even traditional local rivals of us that I have a serious dislike of these days...

I will finally take a look at the charges over the assets and bits of the club- @Davefevs @myol'man may also find this interesting...seems odd that you'd buy a club whereby charges are over all the main assets from Dell, Gabay- at least as per CH. @Hxj might also- seems the EFL have given the green light anyway, there's no real reason AFAIK to stop it.

FFP equity limits, EFL need to scrutinise like a hawk any transactions between UAE and Derby too. I don't care about Covid, I don't even care about Derby's wellbeing as a club. The more hardship the better in fact.

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So much to wade through actually, maybe later or tomorrow.

Starting point:

Company                                                         Charge Created Charge Delivered     Who the Lender is            

The Derby County Football Club                   6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

The Derby County Football Club                   8th October 2020   14th October 2020  Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

Club DCFC                                                      6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

Stadia DCFC                                                   6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

The Derby County FC Academy Limited      6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

Sevco 5112 Limited                                        6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

Gellaw Newco 203 Limited                           6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

Gellaw Newco 202 Limited                        6th November 2019   13th November 2019  Rams Investment Limited- Gabay?

Gellaw Newco 202 Limited                           6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

Gellaw Newco 204 Limited                        6th November 2019   13th November 2019  Rams Investment Limited- Gabay?

Gellaw Newco 204 Limited                           6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

These are all charges listed at CH as outstanding or similar.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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