Cowshed

17 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Time wasting, there’s no X second rule anymore though as far as I’m aware it’s referees discretion I think. Happy to be proved wrong on that.

I didn’t believe it at first but I haven’t seen it done anywhere near as much this season.

The rule is still six seconds. Check the laws of the game for fouls and misconduct. 

1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

Can I ask an off-topic question?

Has there been a crackdown or rule change this season to prevent keepers time wasting by falling to their knees when they catch a ball (example below)

I played a game in goal a couple of weeks ago and did this and got warned by the ref it’s being clamped down and now a bookable offence but can’t see it in the law changes?

Ive been looking out for keepers doing it and must admit I didn’t see Bentley do it once against Blackpool or Wycombe

Below video is a clip of Alison doing it last season against Everton after Pickford did it in the first half.

 

 

Yes, there is meant to be instruction to alter that behaviour and others that slow the game down..

Pickford takes a minute to take a goal kick. Forster is the top theatrical diver and is recording past thirty seconds to succumb a dead ball.

The possible offence has always been there. Check with refs because it can fall under differing things. 

What’s happened to the instruction generally? I don’t know.

1 hour ago, Taylor10 said:

I would say no to all of the above, which is my point. With the additional waiting around to add to that, just what purpose is VAR serving currently?

VAR has improved efficiency. There has to be less error. and there is. That serves a purpose.

I made a prediction on here, which wasn’t really that clever, that what was called formerly technology assistance would undermine referees and officials. It does, and has to because its nature focusses minds on error, and failing.

Technology assistance will never work with complete efficiency in a fast-paced game with subjective rules, 

I also wrote that once the genie is out of the bag VAR becomes entrenched its an industry. The VAR itself as prdicted becomes a topic of debate, and the inevitable inefficiency feeds controversy. It a cyclic nature. The pundits and media feed off the new technological; controversies, as entertainment and the media love those juicy VAR and refs are bad lines.  

The benefit? I didn’t think the undermining of respect for refs and the game, and the consequences of undermining officialdom are worth the improved efficiency, in a game that is seeing a crisis in ref recruitment – VAR is part of that culture that is creating that crisis.

2 minutes ago, Taylor10 said:

Without doubt more penalties, but we could also have had more go against us too. The standard of officiating is poor but even with the help of VAR things are still not great, plus there is too much waiting around.

Goal line tech was great on sat, it was instant, no questions asked.

So has VAR made decisions worse? Has VAR helped referees? Are they respected more? 

Decisions made with VAR cannot be instant because of the nature of football rules e.g. A ball hitting the arm/hand leads to the question of is it a penalty.

45 minutes ago, Midred said:

Did you used to be a keeper?

No. I am qualified to coach keepers but do not. 

What I provided is from the FA who run courses for Managers/ coaches and players each season on rules changes. In regards to goal keepers what we see are common misapprehensions. 

We can see a lot of misapprehensions from TV pundits and from Managers. The FA and the PMGO can highlight that ref efficiency has improved and VAR has improved efficiency, there are less errors. 

What TV pundits and Managers should recognise is that error is part of football, and so are its subjective rules. The game will never and cannot be perfect. Managers of pro sides feel they are exempt from responsibility to the game. A game that in the future could have serious ref recruitment problems because at the bottom of the development ref pyramid the game is losing refs faster than it recruits them.

The disrespect shown to officialdom, the abusing and criticising of refs at the top manifests itself at the bottom.

Football is haemorrhaging referees.

7 minutes ago, Denbury Red said:

You missed my point or I wasn’t clear enough!

What I mean is if the keeper is in the ‘right’ position he will win the ball every time - and if he’s fouled he deserves a free kick.
 

If he’s not in the right position and when he jumps he can’t reach the ball - then both he and the attacker should be able to jump together without the ref blowing up for a foul every time and protecting the keeper more than protecting the attacker.
 

The keeper always seems to get the free kick!

The keeper has to be protected more. A keeper raising their arms is at more risk and more prone to injury hence why the keeper has more protection.

The jump together is less relevant than hand v feet position. Players jump with keepers when they have no opportunity to get their head in playable distance of the ball, that is a foul. Challenging the keeper for a ball a player cannot get in playable distance of is careless/reckless play.

3 hours ago, Denbury Red said:

It’s the mentality of the person - they are trying to find a reason NOT to give the goal - rather than a reason to GIVE the goal.

Its a contact sport and the protection keepers get, and have got for some years now, needs to stop - if they jump with their hands up high to catch a ball no one can get near them - but if they are not in the right position then they need to take the rough with the smooth!

Why?

If a player is not in a playable distance of the ball they should not challenge for it. 

22 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

We were told that VAR would stop the headlines being about decisions so we could concentrate on talking about the game. If yesterday is anything to go by, VAR is showing no signs of improving despite now being in place for a good while.  Decisions are still being made incorrectly and big decisions at that but this time it is two referees getting it wrong instead of one….value for money?!

Michael Oliver took over a minute looking at a monitor yesterday whilst everyone waiting for him.  The Championship is better for not having VAR…we know a goal is a goal and can celebrate accordingly.  Personally I don’t go to games to watch perfect refereeing performances. Take the rough with the smooth and be careful what you wish for!

As Manager after Manager criticised refs and VAR the game is experiencing a unprecedented drop of numbers coming into football.

The numbers of refs in football is at a record low.

Football is losing refs faster than it is recruiting them. The primary reason is abuse of officials. 

3 hours ago, Hup said:

Assuming ‘success’ is playing first team football… If a player is recruited by the academy whether that be at 7 or 17 it’s down to the academy. Obviously the younger you recruit the longer you have to develop a player, but that can’t be held against the academy. If they recruit a player at an older age and fast track them because they’re ready, so be it. Academy football is about recruitment, coaching and developing (on and off the pitch). It’s doesn’t have to be all three. Ideally you’d recruit all your players at 7 who live in Bristol and are City through and through - from memory though… football has never worked like that and never will. Credit where credit is due. The academy is doing an incredible job in all three departments. 

Its a small thing but kids cant sign for academies till nine.

58 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

So what you're saying...is that our academy is perhaps just about as successful as it should be? Huge if true.

Thanks for that by the way. Some of the methodology for measuring successful productivity may be of interest to @Better Red. For example:

"An Academy, Centre of Excellence, or other club training structure was counted as having contributed to a player’s development if he was in attendance there at any point up to the age of 18."

Shocking to think they have included players who joined an academy at age 16.

Bristol Citys academy is performing reasonably well. If we do a cost based analysis another West Country academy is doing better - Exeter. 

Including players 16+ in a academy performance review skews the figures. Clubs post 16 are signing players in what is the pro development stage. The % of players in the pro development stage is massively increased by its nature, the players are not one age, their U17 - U23 (now U21) and signed to varying forms of pro contracts.

2 hours ago, The Bard said:

I disagree about morphing to a 4 for several reasons.

1. Our 1st choice wing backs aren't as good at fb.  You could argue Tanner and Pring are more like traditional fbs.

2. Our CBs are good at carrying the ball forward. A key advantage of a 3 that I think we utilise well. It helped create the goal yesterday. You lose this with a 2 as they are restricted.

3. We would need a bona fide CDM. We can speculate on whether Naismith can do that job but he's clearly organising well atm. 

4. Effect on Weimann as the 10. I think a change would negatively effect him. He'd be moved out wide more rather than having the freedom to read where gaps are. Also  his ability to plug defensive gaps by spotting when a teammate is caught out of position is priceless. His role is the major strength of the team.

 

 1. The post and formation I was responding to doesn’t have wing backs.  

2. I would disagree about good. The players have limitations. Carrying the ball forward inviting pressure and creating 2v1 is not something that springs to mind with Citys options. Hence adding a fourth player increases passing options and security v the idea posted. This might increase the fluidity of City passing forward into midfield - City have a tendancy to get stuck in u passing patterns from 3 cb's.

3. Not exactly. A player to distribute would be the key skill in the 4-3-3. The formation I was referring to was very dynamic and it would need a more defensively minded mobile player in front of its three cb's. 

4. Effect on Weimann as the 10. One formation had no ten and a sort of ten . The ideas were to increase the collective intensity. A high pressing intense style would require players of high defensive tactical intensity and squad rotation. The squad has personell that can pl;ay higher and in press in units. 

This was the musing about agile high pressing front three and intensity. There are skills within the squad to go out on the front foot versus the counter atttack that has been seen.

10 minutes ago, spudski said:

 

Yep... exactly how I saw it.

Depends on whether defending or offensive...as to who drops back or who pushes forward.

As a 'static'...it was easier to show as a 3313. But in theory moves constantly depending on actions required during a game.

I'm being theoretical and hypothetical. With Conway and Scott developing and kicking on there is something there. Energy and intensity.

Formations to myself are intent. The intent would be to put that intensity on the pitch.

The theoretical and hypothetical would be do they keep the ball well? And what happens when they lose it?  City are not high possession and a player like Massengo can be wayward getting into a defensive shape.

Remedy? 4-3-3. Having a back four and a holding player CDM covers the pitch easier, cuts down on defensive variables so providing cover for the intensity.

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

The 4-3-3...how would this work under this setup and with the personnel mentioned by @spudski, who goes to full back for one thing?

Looks like more of a 3-1-3-3 to me...yes I know that's a starting point.

Its not the same set up or exactly the same players. The intent is similar. 4-3-3  is really five with a mobile energetic five in front of it. 3-1-3-3 the intent is similar but dropping a player back is more pragmatic and easier to cover space down sides so a 5/5 v 4/6. 

5 hours ago, spudski said:

It's a funny ol' game...with a fit Semenyo, most likely Conway and Wells wouldn't have had the opportunities to shine. They've both excelled. Playing together a lot last season and in training has really developed an understanding of one another.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when Semenyo is fully fit.

Personally I really like the idea of an agile high pressing front 3. 

3 from Wells, Conway, Weimann and Semenyo fills me with confidence.

It even crossed my mind as to whether there is a system that could fit certain players, that when on their game could cause a real threat...

________________Bents________________

___Kalas______Naismith____Atkinson__

_______________Williams_______________

____Scott___________________HNM_____

______________Weimann_______________

____Semenyo_____________Wells_______

_______________Conway_______________

There's a lot of energy in that selection...both offensively and defensively.

There is a 4-3-3 lurking there. Four and a pivot and five beyond it in the second and third with energy in and out of possession.

4 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

It's great now but for a long time it produced very little.

For the first ten years all that I can call to mind who made it into the first team are:

Louis Carey - probably youth programme predating the acacdemy

Aaron Brown, his borther Marvin was much trumpeted but never made the step up to the first team

Kevin Amankawaah

Three players over maybe a dozen years.

 

It has however really hit its stride over the last ten years which is going to be a combination of good staff - training, scouting - and good facilities.  The goal, which at times seemed very remote, was to emulate Southampton's Academy and we must be coming close to that now.

I always liked the idea of having an Academy as a fudnamental part of the club but when people were posting in the 2000s that it was a waste of £1m - £2m a year and should be closed down I had very little evidence to use as a counter argument.

You may want to seperate what was the centre of excellence to todays academy. The centre of excellence was originally ran on pennies and trained in car parks and for some reason was used to knock the FC as a drain on resources. The academy of the 90's wasn't close to what Southampton were doing, and the further improved academy of now isnt on the same planet v Southampton. Southampton are a academy of International standing. Bristol City are improving and now ranked top thirty in England for productivity. 

Your figure of £1 -2 m there is uneven with respect., The elite player programme was introduced in 2012. A CAT 2 academy then cost a season circa £800k, which was part of EPP spending criteria to gain CAT 2 level.  £2m was CAT 1. 

On 17/08/2022 at 08:20, Port Said Red said:

I thought that some of the passing angles out from the back were something I hadn't seen from us for a while, the movement of Scott and Massengo allowed different options, and Conway looks like a Weimann clone with his non stop movement.

I am sure Cardiff will do a better job of pressing us, but we showed in that period that we can be fast and accurate when required 

What was our long ball percentage @Cowshed, I am assuming it was lower without Martin playing?

Yes. 10% lower. 25 -10%. I didnt see the game, but the primary reason could be the movement in midfield. Passes (entry passes) increased into midfiield. 

18 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

You are some sort of qualified coach do I am out of my depth in this argument, but 25% of our passes being long balls doesn't sound like very direct football it sounds like we have just about the right mix. I am not really interested in how we compare to other teams in this division, because they all seem to think they are Man City clones without the talent.

If every fourth pass is long whats the intent? Its not to keep it and rest in possession. Bristol City invited pressure by being direct, and it was very direct in this game. A choice is made to concede possession because that has to be the consequence of playing the ball forward to where it will not stick.

There with respect isn't a Man City clone in the division. No team comes close to their intent. There are not leagues of teams attempting what they do. Principle one there is dominate possession with positional play. Man City are unique in England.   

17 minutes ago, KegCity said:

I never said we weren’t, I said we haven’t got the players for it.

I simply made a statement. Bristol City are direct.

Bristol City yesterday played 91 long balls out of 362 passes. A lot of long balls v low possession. The highest proportion in the division?

Its very direct football.

4 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Haven’t got the players to play direct either. Aside from Martin there’s no one to win headers up the pitch.

Bristol City are direct.

Playing the ball long every 3/4 passes is not possession football.

23 minutes ago, nickolas said:

Or we could just not be so negative and play forward rather than constantly go back to Bentley?

Poor tactics and lack of bottle from the players which causes too many negative back passes. 

Going backwards isn't negative = The EPL's top back passers will be playing in the Champions league. The possession is positional and purposeful.

The flaw for BCFC is players are not moving off the trigger (the back pass) into relational distances quickly enough. It becomes possession football in one zone that is inefficient positional play that is nullified. 

On 03/08/2022 at 15:23, phantom said:

It will be interesting to see how this develops over time 

The 63% for females.

I formerly had a job running football sessions for Bristol schools at a sport centre for boys because the schools had no facilities to play on. The schoools were going to take part in the EFL trust tournament. Many of the boys at ten and eleven had not played any organised football. 

I have also ran sesssion for kids with disabilities, who again had played no organised football.

Point here is lack of opportunity is not restricted to one sex etc. 

26 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

What happens to the girls who reach 18, are past youth football and aren’t good enough for elite football? That’s the area I think needs to improve dramatically if you are talking about a true legacy……in participation anyway.

There are womens leagues in Bristol with teams with no toilets and changing rooms. This includes one if not Bristols biggest female club, and its not their fault, its the Councils and Mr Rees ignoring whats happening. We can see these poor standards across the nation.

4G pitches in Bristol can cost £100 an hour for a game. Council run pitches! The daft FA charge services for a FA accreditation stating this faciilty = this FA standard. The cost gets handed to consumers, grass roots clubs end up paying more as the businesses then charge more for the accreditation standards. 

And on this goes limiting not maximising opportunity to play the game.

Investing in more facilities and making the game cheaper and accessible should be the legacy.

26 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Yes indeed. The WSL in its context is even worse than the Premier League in that respect. So if more money comes in it will likely go to pay ever higher wages to star, often foreign, players.

Not what I would call a legacy.

I would not say its likely, it inevitable because its already happened. The WSL is a reflection of home and European and frequently antipodean recruitment - Its seems half the Matildas squad are playing in England. 

Responses to that challenge for the game ? There will no quotas so increasing the standards of homegrown players, and our structure from the grass roots up for the wider benefit of football can and should be the response. That facilities x structure x coaching increases the talent pool for pro clubs. 

33 minutes ago, Robbored said:

One of the senior women involved in the WSL was saying that the average wage of the WSL player is £27k per year 

Yes.

Which is reflective of the status of the womens game. That wage still fills multiplen WSL squads with International players.

33 minutes ago, Robbored said:

 male professional footballers in the PL are paid 10 times that per week 

Which reflects the environment.

33 minutes ago, Robbored said:

 KdB reputedly on £350k  per week.

Man City signed Alanna Kennedy a Australian international.

She won't be on that astrononomicasl sum. She will be paid what the womens market and the signing club thinks her worth is in the womens game.

23 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Can be for a minority. From The Telegraph back in March:

The investigation found that current salaries range from as little as £20,000 per annum to as much as £250,000, plus bonuses, across the 12 top clubs. That top end of the spectrum could well rise, as three sources within the WSL were aware of an England player being offered around £300,000-a-season to sign a new contract this summer.

At the lower end of the scale, Telegraph Sport's investigation found that, according to the most recent accounts available, Birmingham City and Tottenham Hotspur spent the least on employee salaries (figures that included all administrative staff as well as players). Of the WSL clubs to have published details in their 2019-20 financial accounts, both clubs' average salary for employees fell well below the national average wage, with Birmingham's coming to less than £19,000.

So it's a very uncompetitive league of a few rich clubs and the rest there to make up the fixtures.

Which is why foreign players are attracted to the WSL. The wages are high., even the lower end is high hence so many Internatioinal players play here. Bristol City at the bottom end of the pay scale can sign Australian Internationals like Chloe Logarzo. 

The numbers of homegrown players in squads since the inception of the WSL has dropped as wages increase.

4 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

You can do both if you want to expand the women's game, there has to be a realisation that even with the current professionalisation of the women's game wages are still small, and in order to become a professional athlete you need to give up your day job and have enough money to do it.  You have to get more money into at least the top 3 tiers of women's football to enable the professional game to grow, and the grass roots to have a realistic prospect of a career football even if its not the top top tier. 

I dont understand your post. 

Wages in the WSL can be up to 250k in a league with attendances that are not high. The WSL attracts so many foreigjn players because of its high wages. The WSL has up to 50% of its players coming from abroad.

Paying higher wages means clubs look abroad. Small time Bristol City women have signed Australian internationals. 

Football isn't a realistic carear prospect for kids. I say thas as a I hope a responsible coach and parent of a kid in the academy system. Waht we should be doing is concentrate on grass roots footall ensuring that this  experience is the best it can be and opportunity is to create the exceptional talents, that will progress.

That means that kids get to play football in school. In an affluent City like Bristol many don't, the schools dont have pitches. That means that in girls football they have a pitch, and have changing rooms, that have a female toilet . In an affluent City like Bristol we are not managing that, grounds like the Imperial supporting scores of girls teams has had NO changing rooms and toilets for YEARS. Where do girls go to toilet there? Bushes? Periods? The useless Mayor knows about this. The facility thing there is a national standard.

Facilities and coaching. Thats where success should be pursued. More 4G pitches, better toilets, more coaches, because the game has grown at grass roots as we learned that success starts from the bottom. England started mirroring performance culture with its future games, blue prints for football the coaching and performance models of foreign FA's over a decade ago. Get more in at the grass root level, make that experience better, coach them more skillfully and we produce more exceptional talents for pro clubs to feed off, and they will feed.