Rebounder

5 hours ago, ooRya said:

Thank you for that considered response.

I DO get where you're coming from, but at the same time still struggle with how people are so easily offended these days.

Having said that, I will readily admit to being of the generation that grew up during the 1970's - a decade where stereotypes were one of the main sources of humour/comedy, so accept that I'm probably very "out of date!"

Back then a lot of people were offended by Men openly kissing in public. There are still  people around now that would struggle with it. I think it's a bit of a myth that society wasn't so easily offended back then, it's just we're not offended by the same things now. In the 70's a lot of those jokes did hurt and offend a lot of people, they just didn't have the voice  to be able to call it out, and society generally didn't care that they were being discriminated against. 

It's not "easily offended" when you have been assaulted and abused for your sexuality. Using sexuality as an insult towards someone else indicates that there is something wrong with it, and that feeds into a narrative that they are less than. The person making the joke might not be homophobic, but they are helping to perpetuate that idea and that does lead to real life discrimination of gay people. 

I totally acknowledge that we all make mistakes and I've made loads of jokes that I look back on and regret - I will definitely do it again I'm sure. Language is also changing constantly and I think most people are more scared of getting something wrong so they retreat into a defensive stance straight away - "people are just to easy to offend these days" I think it's okay to get something wrong and to reflect on it. People also have the right to challenge us on something we've said even if we don't agree with it. 

As always context and situation are important. 

32 minutes ago, Bouncearoundtheground said:

But there comes a point when the corporate gleam becomes counter productive to securing new fans as it is meant to do. What is it that made us all fall in love with Bristol City as young people? Less likely was it to be about gorgeous football and stunning eras of success as it was about personality. Pride in the rough edges and the culture, fascination in the little pockets of chaos, and love and belonging in the soul and sanctity of Ashton Gate. 
 

I don’t see any of that right now. Young fans are well aware of the past and that they’re missing out, I don’t blame them for wanting to change that.

I completely agree. 

3 hours ago, TomF said:

Reminds me of when the middle of the Atyeo split and H Block was created.  It did in some sense work well.  Not saying this A block idea is good or bad but the safety advisory group could very quickly close it down. I think some fans forget they dictate a lot of policy to the club that they either adhere to or risk having areas shut down.

I don't buy all this 'the atmosphere is poor because people are sat in x block' and because the club have sanitised the areas etc. It's because the football on display is uninspiring and has been for a number of years, it goes back to the end of the LJ era.  Remember when we were on a roll with GJ, Cotts and even those play off semi's with Wilson. The atmosphere all over the ground was good because the fans had something to get behind.  Improve the stuff on the pitch and the atmosphere will follow. 

I remember back then constant threads on here saying how the Atyeo is bad for acoustics and that was why we needed the east end. I agreed and loved going down the east end glad I got to experience that even if it wasn't the same as back in the day. 

Seems the away fans don't have a problem with creating an atmosphere in there though so it can't just be the type of stand. 

I sat in the bottom part of A Block for the Sunderland game and it was quite good. They bought loads and there was good backwards and forwards throughout the game. Thought it would be even better against teams like Cardiff. 

I think the club have made some good decisions recently and should be praised for their community work, but I'm inclined to agree that the club aren't really interested in their being a hot atmosphere that is hard to control.

I can kind of understand why from a business and headache point of view, but it's out of touch with a fairly large element of our fans. It's also not surprising as ultimately we are talking about billionaires and people from corporate backgrounds who make the decisions. As great as Ashton Gate is now, it is also a reflection of that clean (on the surface at least) and corporate world. It's no different from many grounds in that respect and for better, or worse that's how football is now. Look at Cardiff for another perfect example of this. 

Possibly the food, but also there are a few bugs going around at the moment where sickness and nausea are a key component. Friends been sick a few times with their bug, and both me and my partner have had a similar/the same bug without actually being sick. 

19 minutes ago, WessexPest said:

Everyone’s cup final…

 

Imagine being a football fan and not going mental at a last minute winner. 

15 minutes ago, DaveF said:

OTIB is a miserable place. Are fans from other teams as negative as those on OTIB?

Yep. 

2 minutes ago, Open End Numb Legs said:

I would rather see a different way of deciding it, e.g. give the ball to the attacker 30 yards out and give them 10 seconds to score, keeper can do what they like. I know this has been discussed before but maybe they could trial it. Maybe they have.

Isn't that how they used to do it in the USA? 

Also just to add people are allowed to make mistakes, bad choices, and unfortunately things happen sometimes which means that your situation changes dramatically. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to access help and support. 

Additionally - yes even those of us who are, or have been poor would still like some aspects of modern life to enjoy. One of my clients who is very socially isolated due to their health may buy a TV for £200-300 and may even spend slightly more "unwisely" but for them that TV could actually save their life as the alternative is darkness. Companies like brighthouse knew about these vulnerabilities and actively targeted poor economic areas like Knowle and Kingswood, giving credit at unsustainable rates, until they were rightly pulled up on it and forced to pay back compensation. You'd judge that person for having a TV and needing to use a foodbank on occasion. 

Also worth noting that most people need a smart phone, or access to a computer simply to do basic things now. 

We could live in a world where brands don't exist, and everyone has access to cheap clothes, food, housing etc. However, we live in a world that has been very happy to push narratives of how our worth is built around brands, owning a house and car, constant growth, encouraged debt and buying more stuff rather than using collective resources. We allowed supermarkets to run riot and watched our local high streets destroyed. I remember being a young teenager and looking at my older peers wanting to buy Fred Perry gear as that's part of how I believed you gained belonging. Obviously I learnt that's shit, but it's all done on purpose, pushed through constant advertising that invades our homes and public spaces, and most of us aren't immune to it. 

A lot of it just reads down as shitting on young people to be honest. I'm 30-35, my parents in their 70's, siblings in 40-50 range, and nieces and nephews in the 20-01 age range so kind of sit in the middle. We're all thriving and struggling with different challenges and different inputs. I wouldn't say any groups had it easier, or harder, it's just different. 

Probably the biggest disparity between me and my older siblings has been the ability to get on to the housing ladder, or access to affordable homes. My sister bought her house in 1998, and my brother took his council house into private hands and has since sold it which I massively disagreed with. My other sister also has a council flat. We pay £800 rent a month for a 1 bed flat and that's under market rate - I am the main earner as my partner can't work due to long term sickness right now.  I'd be quite happy to rent forever at affordable rates, but if I could I would jump at the chance to buy now. 

Also very weak Unions, wage suppression, lack of sick pay and attack on welfare has not helped. That's directly fed into people's poor physical and mental health, lack of time, and available resources. We have less community now and exist on smaller individual levels which means a crisis hits even harder. 

There are so many other ways I've benefitted though from being born in my age, cheaper travel, healthcare advances, technology for better or worse, and of course avocado on toast. So it's not all bad and I know my older peers had a lot of shit to battle through too. 

TLDR; As I said it's complicated and down to so much more than simply bad choices on an individual level. You have to consider society as a whole and we have actively created this mess so shitting on the poorest is bad form in my opinion. 

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Or perchance personal failing? If folks who had less in my youth didn't go hungry why are they hungry now? I could cite dozens of examples, but these days its easier to point fingers of blame, easier to conflate that one demands one needs with that one actually needs. Go apply your 'market failure' theory to the rank of shops where I grew up. Odd the cheap and basic suppliers of my youth were replaced by expensive "value added' suppliers. They were replaced because largely potless punters demanded them. No longer buying spuds by the sack, rather spending half as much on one bag of chips. As a kid food & shelter took precedence over private transport, telecommunications, consumer goods & holidays. Daps were cheap, black and without branded logo, the latter of no functional consequence. Not so that witnessed in BS13 food bank queues these days. 

I started to write a deconstruction of this post, but I can't really be assed. My parents grew up in the 1950's and they still had ration books. Wigan Pier a good example of the levels of poverty that existed. Some things were grim and hard, but some things were a lot easier than they are now. So many of those things you've listed have changed due to the changes in work and economic shifts. 

All I can say is I spent 3 hours in torchlight and candle light with a group of people in an isolated are of NE somerset whose gas and electric had been cut off and Disability Payments stopped following a crisis. We didn't get through to the energy company as we had to give up after 90 Minutes on hold. They had some biscuits for lunch. I felt the cold drop whilst I was with them, smelt the mould in the building and they pulled on blankets whilst we discussed how the candle light had made it feel warmer than the -5 degrees it was outside. 

I then left them to go and get a coffee to warm my bones and go back to my warm house. I can assure you that branded trainers, holidays, and TV's aren't something that they think about in general and were far from their mind at that moment.  They had been living like that for over a month, not through choice.  These are the people who will be using our warm spaces. 

My advice to you whilst you pass judgement of people's clothes at the foodbank is to consider that sometimes people's situations change, especially during a cost of living  and energy crisis, and you have no idea how they got into that place. 

22 hours ago, 2015 said:

Said it on another thread before and got shouted down about the implications but I still firmly believe its about time all the top National federations in Europe come together and breakaway from FIFA. They are hell bent on ruining the sport for money

I'm pretty sure those National Federations are also hellbent on ruining the sport for money, it'll just be ruined in their image instead. 

2 minutes ago, Supersonic Robin said:

Feel sorry for Kane. The best player of this group and an excellent captain. Kane didn't deserve to be the one to make such an error.

I'm not surprised that we lost the game though. We gave it a decent go, but I can't escape the feeling that there's something missing with this England team - a bit of a competitive/aggressive/arrogant edge perhaps.

Did just say somewhere else how great the young lads are coming through, both in terms of talent and appearing grounded, but maybe lack that bit of steal. Think it will come though - Bellingham is immense. 

******* hell so close. 

Ah **** Kane. Come one boys. 

How the **** is that not a penalty. 

12 minutes ago, BigTone said:

This is turning into a classic WC. It's also nice to see all the political crap being pushed into the background in the past week and the football doing the talking.

Yeah because the death of working class people for a rich elite is just political crap. 

I don't disagree with people choosing to watch the world cup and I'm following along in the background - ultimately what anyone here does isn't going to do anything. You don't need to dismiss concerns about the tragedies that got them here as political crap. 

Anyway I know this isn't the political thread so I guess it's better to leave it there. 

Did catch a screen of Suarez crying which was amusing. 

58 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

%100

I think Southgate has some flaws  , but one thing you can’t deny , that is really clear is the atmosphere and cohesiveness , he’s brought into England camps and campaigns , that have regularly been the opposite in previous regimes

Not an easy task in itself , but fundamental if we ever want success , so a massive tick for this

I think he’s also helped by the fact that we appear to have a group of players who not only have some very decent ability but appear to be , good lads , sensible , we’ll mannered , who really enjoy each other’s company 

Listening to some of the interviews of players between matches,  in this , and recent tournaments , it’s clear how much they enjoy the squad company, have fun ,  and get along -

for example , I heard Grealish talking about some of his teammates this morning and he was exuding what a ‘really nice lad’ Saka is , labelling him as ‘probably the nicest lad I know’

I also think Gareth is  fortunate , although I’d suggest Tbf,  it’s something he’s kept a steady control on , with selections previously , that there are no obvious ‘out of kilt egos’ about the place

I also think Kane has been a great head for the players , surely our best player over the last 5 years or so , but totally professional and seemingly zero ‘ego’

 

Lampard, Ferdinand etc have all spoken about how divided the England team was in their era. People sticking to their club groups at breakfast, not wanting to mix and give away information that might affect their league campaigns. I think that's a massive difference in this team and you can see they are a unit. Southgate deserves a lot of credit for that. 

Regardless of if he wins anything he has put good foundations in place and also had decent success compared to previous managers. There are of course valid criticisms too especially when needing to change a game. 

1 hour ago, BigTone said:

I agree with you RR. I also think that these days some who take offence with various issues are actually more racist because they allow their minds to think in such a manner instead if looking at humour or banter. I said in a previous thread it is a 2 way street. Many people of I know of different race take the michael out of us and why not. If I'd taken offence at every anti English comment made to me in my travels then I would be a basket case by now.

I know my thoughts on race etc and I dont need anyone that doesn't know me to be judge and jury. They are the ones with the racist problem.

Too many keyboard warriors these days who are frankly clueless.

The problem with this is that what you may think is banter and a bit of a laugh, might not be for someone else even when they are going along with it. I had a loose friend from school who was Asian, and we used to "banter" growing up and he said looking back that it actually made him feel quite shit. He went along with it, but it reinforced the difference he already felt as one of the few Asians in our school and also added to other everyday racism he experienced elsewhere which got particularly extreme post 9/11. 

I think if you've not grown up regularly experiencing Racism then it's not going to affect you in the same way it would someone who has. I remember being away and being targeted due to my nationality, it was still scary, but I hadn't had to experience that on a regular basis like my friend and didn't trigger all those trauma responses it could in someone else. We're also not all the same and some people will experience racism and it won't affect them in the same way it does their peers. 

You say you know your thoughts on Race, and I'm sure you do. I was brought up in a very racist household and my much older sibling was quite extreme. I know that had an impact on me, and I've had to reflect on that which wasn't comfortable at times, but was even more uncomfortable for those I hurt even if I felt it was unintentional. If you're using racism as banter you really need to ask yourself why you're doing it, and think about what is going underneath for both you and the person.

It's not about being a keyboard warrior, it's just reflecting on your behaviour and listening to what people who experienced racism are saying and trying to understand it without being defensive. Me and my mates rinse eachother all the time, but you do have to have some boundaries. A work in progress. 

Edit: I do get pissed off when people still use the word Chav though.  I fit the stereotype as a teenager and was labeled as such. That was backed up by the constant press attacks on youth at the time and the likes of Little Britain. It definitely had an impact on a sub conscious level. 

2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Away from home you're probably looking at Leicester at the new Walkers stadium in 2003. As we'd been in L1 a few years I recall it was quite an exciting draw at a big, new ground. But pretty sure Leicester were in the Championship at the time. 

The fact that game stands out to me shows how dire our draws have been. 

Meanwhile Oxford rock up this evening and draw Arsenal

Think we lost 3-0 too? I remember going to both Walkers Stadium and Filbert Street when I was a kid as we had family up there. 

Ah 3-0 at Filbert Street apparently. https://www.11v11.com/matches/leicester-city-v-bristol-city-17-february-2001-5057/

4 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

That's all very well, but there is more than a hint of hypocrisy that as a meat eater you accept that eating animals that have been electrocuted, shot with bolt guns, had their throats slit, or in the case of chickens gassed, is OK due to your dietary preference. 

This hypocrisy is hard for people to acknowledge as we're indoctrinated from a very young age that farm animals are "meat" and dolphins, lions, giraffes etc are magical creatures whose lives are worth more. But if you want to be consistent then surely ALL bad treatment/killing of animals is unacceptable?

I know what you are saying. I'm veggie - cant quite manage vegan. I decided to take the jump to Veggie when I was doing some stuff around the badger cull and it didn't sit right to be eating meat anymore. It was a decision I'd thought about for a long time. I'm still hypocritical, but everyone is to an extent and we have to also do what's manageable within the world we try to survive in so I don't judge other people on their choice to eat meat. 

Its true there is a disparity between iconic animals and how we view them, and then animals that are less cute, or seen as pests. I watched people throwing jellyfish around on a beach, and when I challenged someone they did it more. A real disconnect between sea life and land animals. 

All of that being said, I do feel saying "yeah but we eat meat" to be a bit of a strawman when trying to challenge something like this. It's a process and I was quite warmed to see people being against this on here. Hopefully we can move away from seeing animals as entertainment, and then also food. 

41 minutes ago, BS15_RED said:

I agree with all you’re saying mate, sadly I think this a problem with society in general, especially the younger generation.

Yeah the 80's were a time of civility in Foootball Grounds.

My OSIB magazine came through the post today and it looked amazing! 

Haven't had a proper look through it yet, but it's far better than I was expecting. Good effort to all involved. 

10 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

In the same way that we're not going to stop people smoking?  Only with that, the prevalence of smokers has reduced from around 20% of the population to around 13% in the space of 10 years. The government won't legalise something that can prove to be harmful to the public.  The amount of tax they would receive from it I feel is irrelevant insofar that they were getting billions in the tax of cigarettes, but that didn't stop them from making it less tempting to buy them, thus reducing the tax they take in.

In relation to the topic of drugs in football, can I just say that I have never dabbled in any narcotics of any type, but a part of me wishes I could've found a supplier during the game last night that could've made watching that shower almost bearable! 

That's worked due to good harm reduction policies rather than outright banning. There are different approaches to regulation, 

On the last point if you've ever drank alcohol you have used narcotics. Tbf not even 8 pints would have made last night better. 

2 hours ago, spudski said:

There are plenty of studies on the net that have come to the conclusion that it does re wire the brain. If you have time, take a look. You don't get addicted on one hit. The addiction comes from trying to get that first experience again. You take more searching...that's when the addiction happens. The depression that comes with it is worse. As you end up on all sorts of drugs and medication to feel ' normal' again.

Yes...there are many addictive traits...drugs, smoking, alcohol. 

It's often the affects of over indulging in these that not only affects oneself, but also others around them. Family, friends...to the people involved in making and distributing drugs. There's no positive outcome. 

Finding alternate methods that aren't harmful, to fill the void, is the answer. 

Cheers for the reply! I know how it works longer term(work in the field, but don't know everything of course) but I was challenging that it happens straight away which has been posted multiple times and as far as I can see that isn't true.

I don't feel it is people looking for that same feeling as the first time, but it is true as tolerance builds and you use more regularly that you need to use more which then obviously ramps up all the other negative affects both physically, mentally and social. Especially if you are using multiple substances which with Cocaine usually is Alcohol. 

There are many complex reasons why people get addicted to drugs, or any obsessive behaviour and it can't always be applied simply to the substance itself. Trauma, stigma, poverty and underlying conditions being most prevalent in my personal opinion.

Lots of people use drugs and alcohol moderately and don't ever develop long term problems. Many will have positive experiences overall. 

Largely agree with you, but there are many other ways that these problems can be approached without going down decronian routes that have largely been shown to fail. 

On the last point when it comes to dependant use and even moderate use you are totally correct. 

I'd love to see the evidence that cocaine rewires your Brain after the first line as it's not something that I've come across. 

It stimulates Dopamine production. Putting across that it's one line and your addicted is obviously not true. Though repeated exposure and excessive use can cause significant problems especially when combined with other substances like alcohol. 

36 minutes ago, spudski said:

It's sad isn't it...that so many people have to rely on drugs to be happy, feel good about themselves or take them purely to exist. 

Surely it's the system that's broke. The system that makes people need drugs to be happy, have a good time, exist etc etc. That's what needs sorting. Gangs and supply are just sticking a plaster over a deep wound.

Re Cocaine...when you first take it, you experience euphoria. And your brain ' rewires' itself. After that initial rewiring...you never ever feel that same euphoric state again, regardless of how much you take. It's highly addictive, and people are chasing a feeling they will never experience again. Then you have the coming down and severe depression to deal with.

It's a fecked up situation.

I've never seen so many ' normal' people, from all walks of life, dependent on it to have a good time. To openly talk about it, like it's normal. It really has taken a hold. 

I wonder how much of the Albanian drug money is going back into their own country?

I noticed recently that Albanian has now become the next best holiday destination. With, beach clubs, bars and gorgeous blue seas and bays to enjoy. Very much like parts of Greece.

Whilst their economy and country is starting to thrive...ours is going to the dogs. 

 

Out of interest do you feel the same about alcohol, or were you including that when you said people need drugs to have a good time?

The vast majority of people use drugs and alcohol because they enjoy the affects and they don't develop any long term problems. Some do go on to develop problems for lots of  reasons, but simply painting it as a way to escape/self medicate ignores the many different reasons people have always used drugs. 

The system is broken though I agree. One of the biggest barriers people face to accessing proper support for their mental health and substance use is the stigma around it. 

3 hours ago, Winterstoke toad said:

Didn’t Portugal do something similar which started off doing really well . I haven’t kept up with it though so I’m not sure how it’s ended up .

They decriminalised a long time ago. I went to a talk by the health minister at the time who was responsible for it coming in and he said they would never go back to it. 

On targeting drug gangs - we spend Millions on that, but the industry is so profitable that it won't ever win as people will always step in. I have my issues with Neil Woods but his book Good Cop, Bad War is a good look at this. Think it's being made into film.