Crossing The Rubicon - Cotts Out?

[Chairman Mao]

Why, does the season finish in mid October this year?

it practically will have if we get no points and the teams around us pull clear

[Guest]

 

My worry is if he comes to the conclusion prior to January that we need serious help, yet the club ether cannot or will not provide that support in the shape of loans or new players in that window, then he may come to the conclusion that it would be better to walk away with an impressive two years on his jacket, than be involved in a relegation, which I understand he never has been before.

I don't believe he is anywhere close to doing this, but the end of the transfer window scared me somewhat in this regard.

I see that as unlikely. Unfortunately for SC, fortunately for us, whilst our profile may have raised I don't think his has and I think he's almost as unfashionable as the day he arrived - undeservedly I add. He 'bought' the title after all. 

His agent may advise him the preservation of reputation would be insignificant, it'd be my advice from afar surely. And then there is the payoff and pride comes before a fall and all that. 

[bristolcitysweden]

Would he be the new Benny to SC's Ward?

He is the Iceland manager and is hardly interested in the City job as they are now preparing for the European championship. Great record as manager for Sweden and Nigeria. He would sort us as consultant no doubt about that but does SC understand he needs help? Does SL?   

[samo II]

I see that as unlikely. Unfortunately for SC, fortunately for us, whilst our profile may have raised I don't think his has and I think he's almost as unfashionable as the day he arrived - undeservedly I add. He 'bought' the title after all. 

His agent may advise him the preservation of reputation would be insignificant, it'd be my advice from afar surely. And then there is the payoff and pride comes before a fall and all that. 

Agree; that looks a lot more likely - was just a worry.

I actually think he'll get the backing he needs in the market; SL will be not want to be opening the new stands in League One, and investing £4-5+million in order to make that £35-50million investment worthwhile is prudent.

[Dynamite Red]

Cotts deserves time but if I am honest and someone like Sam Allardyce could be tempted to the Gate I wouldn't even give it a second thought.

[BS4 on Tour...]

Cotts deserves time but if I am honest and someone like Sam Allardyce could be tempted to the Gate I wouldn't even give it a second thought.

Cotts deserves time but if I am honest and someone like Sam Allardyce could be tempted to the Gate I wouldn't even give it a second thought.

Yep, I agree with you. Clubs with real ambition have to be ruthless. Southampton knew Nigel Adkins wouldn't establish them as a real Premier league force so they made a decision that was very unpopular but you don't see their fans complaining now.

Sam Allardyce has taken Bolton and West Ham out of the Championship - he took Bolton into Europe and to a major cup final.

He also quickly established West Ham as a Premier league club after taking them up.

But unbelievably people on here don't seem to like or rate him.

Track records and relevant experience are very important in recruitment at all levels, and that includes football managers.

A lot of people criticise the regular managerial changes at clubs like Chelsea, Real Madrid, Man City etc but those clubs remain at the top.

A ruthless streak is sometimes necessary.

I agree that SC deserves time after last season's success, but just how much time is an interesting question...

[BobBobSuperBob]

whatever our opinions ( And fans at virtually every if not every club will debate this very q if they start a season like we have after the shambles of the summer)

For me it's a case of keeping a close eye on exactly what's happening in areas none of us can be entirely sure of the answer

key for me - besides the poor results and lack of plan B are

What were the reasons for the apparent struggles to attract players in the summer (And what part did SC play, if any eg did his reputation amongst some in footballing circles, play a part and is it likely to effect future recruitment)

Are the players behind him ?

What are SCs plans to change results on pitch ?

These are key questions for me and very relevant and - one things for sure SL and the board should be fully aware of the answers to all the above

id want to be able to feel comfortable about all 3 and if I wasn't I would certainly be quietly considering my options whilst keeping a very close eye on events over next six weeks

SC quite rightly , should have a bank of brownie points from last years success but football is a ruthless business now and it's a question of how quickly those brownie points start to disappear as too much sentiment can be fatal .

For me personally it's difficult to answer without a full knowledge of the tree answers - as supporters we can only judge by performances on the pitch, what we see in the media plus some talk about what's going on from sources of varying areas 

if I'm honest , combining my experience of football, and life in general , I don't like the 'signs' and indicators.

I'm not sure how 'ruthless ' SL is / could be but I personally wouldn't be that shocked if results don't improve in the coming weeks SL may just hit the button - just a hunch

I sincerely hope I'm wrong and ironically if SC can sort this and get us to a comfortable survival I think the experience may empower him even more and give us some stability

[pongo88]

Cotts deserves time but if I am honest and someone like Sam Allardyce could be tempted to the Gate I wouldn't even give it a second thought.

If Cotts goes, and I stress "if", I'd like someone like Sam Allardyce as replacement. The big question is why would he, or someone like him, want to come to City? The club had one good season in league two last year, and a near miss with Gary Johnson 7 years ago. Apart from that, not much in recent times.  

[Iron Acton Red]

Yeah lets do a Watford, 5 managers later and we will be in the Premier League no worries. 

 

I mean Steve only got us the League 1 title and the JPT last season, it's not like he did anything special. So there's no need to stick by him. Is Ollie about?

Whilst I agree he did fantastic for us last season,there can be no sentiment in football and we can't afford to go straight back down again like in 1998.It took us years to go back up again,I think if we lose our next three games coots could be shown the door.

[BobBobSuperBob]

If Cotts goes, and I stress "if", I'd like someone like Sam Allardyce as replacement. The big question is why would he, or someone like him, want to come to City? The club had one good season in league two last year, and a near miss with Gary Johnson 7 years ago. Apart from that, not much in recent times.  

sadly no chance with Big Sam - very wealthy man now and can wait for a suitable job, if he wants another one

We wouldn't pay his wages and as nice a fella as he is , with his track record I dont think he'd even consider us or any club other than one or two possible exceptions , in Championship

[JamesBCFC]

what are you talking about?

you asked if they would consider Cotts out if we were 9 points adrift in January. That, and where we are now (1 point behind with 38 games left) are 2 totally different positions and are incomparable 

[Lew-T]

Get behind him.

 

Not literally though...

[Phileas Fogg]

you asked if they would consider Cotts out if we were 9 points adrift in January. That, and where we are now (1 point behind with 38 games left) are 2 totally different positions and are incomparable 

Obviously, I was asking that scenario to someone who implied under no circumstances would they consider replacing the manager.

[AshtonGreat]

I despair, no, I really do, we have played 8 games of the season are not miles adfrift have 'some' points on the board and yet, the knives are out.

Is it that people wanted the Premiership next year and thought we'd walk it, thus are impatient?

Is it that people have hugely unrealistic expectations that a new stadium equals a good team? (something that's been debunked a zillion times)?

Is it that people have really short memories and are trying to cling on to success as being the only measure of a football team succeeding, from adversity?

and so on.

We have come along way since the dark days post GJ, yup, things arent right and yip we played poorly today by all accounts. The realists and pragmatists predicted this as we have been there before and are and have been indoubtedly there before, and will do so again before the world end or football evolves. Yet. people are now calling for the managers head after 8 games, blasting the board for not buying everyone in sight like we have a god given right to success and everything in between.

Thing is, we are and have predominently been a League one/Champs yo yo club for at least the last twenty years and our history confirms this largely to be the case also. There's no patience anymore in getting things right :/ If this was after 20 games then you may have a point. however it's still relatively early season and we are by no means dead and buried yet.

SC has lots of experience doing things with small squads and budgets in this league, and things will start sorting themselves out, if everyone stopped panicking every five seconds. 

In some ways, Iam glad I took a step back from everything around 12 months as sometimes it's having the club to support that is important, not winning everything insight because we have some massive small man inferiority complex and divine right syndrome.

If we go down this season we go down. We should at least enjoy the ride, given that we worked hard to get here.

 

 

 

Well look at West Ham as an example. They had a reasonable season in the premier league last season, it tailed off a bit and they finished 12th.

They decided that isn't good enough and they sacked big Sam. Now this season they've already beaten Arsenal, Liverpool and Man City all away from home. So they seem to be going in the right direction to get towards the 'next level.'

They could easily have stuck with Sam and they would have probably finished between 8th and 14th every season, which would have kept some fans happy.

But they've obviously thought, every manager has their level, just like players, and to move on they needed someone else. Brave move but it may just work out for them as they move into the Olympic Stadium..

The trouble is, for every West Ham this season, there are a hundred examples where changing the manager didn't work. Look, regardless of who the manager is, Lansdown ain't going to budge on his wage structure. So, considering we're gonna need a guy who can work with limited funds, I'd sooner have Cotts than anyone else

[ciderup]

I don't know if anyone else noticed it but I can see SL clearly from my seat where the new stand meets the Dolman. At the game, he sits with his son Jon and his little grandson but at the end yesterday, Jon and the little one moved away and SL was sat there all on his own for a short time, looking out on the pitch and he appeared to be very deep in thought.

Now I'm not saying this meant anything and nor do I support the removal of Cott's but it looked very odd. Maybe he does it at every game to gather his thoughts before chatting to the good and wealthy? I can't say I have noticed it before.

[Lack of Action Man]

Something that was particularly frustrating about yesterday was How easily Reading deconstructed us. They are by no means anywhere near as good as West Ham yet we capitulated against them whereas we actually gave West Ham a really good run for their money. Why is this?

The finger of blame can only be pointed at failure to refresh the squad with new players. Our current squad has been found out and we have no way to change it. Moreover we look terribly disciplined with our preferred shape at times. Bryan pushes too high up the pitch and leaves acres of space in behind in his channel leaving Williams way too exposed. Ayling lacks the pace to play a wing back role. Wilbrahams touch seems bordering on woeful at times. 

We have to improve with what we've got and do it quickly.

[CyderInACan]

If only Cotts could cash in all the unused Food Vouchers we could increase our budget easily. Just ask DaveL (if anyone remembers the old "Ask" forum, anyway) 

[Guest]

I don't know if anyone else noticed it but I can see SL clearly from my seat where the new stand meets the Dolman. At the game, he sits with his son Jon and his little grandson but at the end yesterday, Jon and the little one moved away and SL was sat there all on his own for a short time, looking out on the pitch and he appeared to be very deep in thought.

Now I'm not saying this meant anything and nor do I support the removal of Cott's but it looked very odd. Maybe he does it at every game to gather his thoughts before chatting to the good and wealthy? I can't say I have noticed it before

Curry and ale the night before would account for every oddity you mention.  

[spudski]

whatever our opinions ( And fans at virtually every if not every club will debate this very q if they start a season like we have after the shambles of the summer)

For me it's a case of keeping a close eye on exactly what's happening in areas none of us can be entirely sure of the answer

key for me - besides the poor results and lack of plan B are

What were the reasons for the apparent struggles to attract players in the summer (And what part did SC play, if any eg did his reputation amongst some in footballing circles, play a part and is it likely to effect future recruitment)

Are the players behind him ?

What are SCs plans to change results on pitch ?

These are key questions for me and very relevant and - one things for sure SL and the board should be fully aware of the answers to all the above

id want to be able to feel comfortable about all 3 and if I wasn't I would certainly be quietly considering my options whilst keeping a very close eye on events over next six weeks

SC quite rightly , should have a bank of brownie points from last years success but football is a ruthless business now and it's a question of how quickly those brownie points start to disappear as too much sentiment can be fatal .

For me personally it's difficult to answer without a full knowledge of the tree answers - as supporters we can only judge by performances on the pitch, what we see in the media plus some talk about what's going on from sources of varying areas 

if I'm honest , combining my experience of football, and life in general , I don't like the 'signs' and indicators.

I'm not sure how 'ruthless ' SL is / could be but I personally wouldn't be that shocked if results don't improve in the coming weeks SL may just hit the button - just a hunch

I sincerely hope I'm wrong and ironically if SC can sort this and get us to a comfortable survival I think the experience may empower him even more and give us some stability

Nail on the head fella.

For me...this season is really starting to feel like the 98/99 season again.

Even the fan love in with the manager...Cotts reminds me very much of John Ward....both in Character and ability.

Ward left towards the end of October.

Cotts for me....is a good League 1 manager. Ability wise, he reminds me very much of GJ and Ward....Good at a certain level but limited at a higher level.

All the signs from what has happened at the Club since the end of last season, the results and frailties on the pitch, and now pretty much stuck with the players we have until January....I personally can't see it getting any better.

 

 

[SimonL]

If we stay up this year then obviously fantastic, but if the worst happens there is quite a dilemma as cotts would be the ideal manager to take us back up imo

[downendcity]

If we stay up this year then obviously fantastic, but if the worst happens there is quite a dilemma as cotts would be the ideal manager to take us back up imo

Ah, I see it now, as Cotts is feathering his own nest with a sort of managerial perpetual motion - gain promotion, then get relegated but you are kept on as you are then the best qualified to get us promoted again, at which point the club have the keep you on because of the promotion success. 

A cunning plan right out of the top drawer of Baldrick's collection of cunning plans

[AshtonGreat]

Cotts deserves time but if I am honest and someone like Sam Allardyce could be tempted to the Gate I wouldn't even give it a second thought.

Sam Allardyce? No thanks

[Nogbad the Bad]

Nail on the head fella.

For me...this season is really starting to feel like the 98/99 season again.

Even the fan love in with the manager...Cotts reminds me very much of John Ward....both in Character and ability.

Ward left towards the end of October.

Cotts for me....is a good League 1 manager. Ability wise, he reminds me very much of GJ and Ward....Good at a certain level but limited at a higher level.

All the signs from what has happened at the Club since the end of last season, the results and frailties on the pitch, and now pretty much stuck with the players we have until January....I personally can't see it getting any better.

 

 

Ward was a competent lower league manager who immediately struggled at this level. 

However much people try to diminish Cotterill's accomplishments he is actually more than proven at this level, indeed while at Burnley he became the longest serving Championship manager.

People seem to forget that after numerous dubious appointments Cotterill was installed on Dawes' recommendation. It's an appointment that has worked fantastically well until the last few weeks and the idea of SL seriously contemplating pulling the rug from under his feet - which I see as extremely unlikely anyway - could therefore prove extremely damaging to board relations.

If you look at the state of BCFC when Cotterill took over and compare it to today any suggestion of sacking him borders on ludicrous. SL will be aware that unlike some previous City managers Cotts.' record shows he doesn't buckle under pressure and is not only always up for the fight, but invariably comes out on top.

[spudski]

Ward was a competent lower league manager who immediately struggled at this level. 

However much people try to diminish Cotterill's accomplishments he is actually more than proven at this level, indeed while at Burnley he became the longest serving Championship manager.

People seem to forget that after numerous dubious appointments Cotterill was installed on Dawes' recommendation. It's an appointment that has worked fantastically well until the last few weeks and the idea of SL seriously contemplating pulling the rug from under his feet - which I see as extremely unlikely anyway - could therefore prove extremely damaging to board relations.

If you look at the state of BCFC when Cotterill took over and compare it to today any suggestion of sacking him borders on ludicrous. SL will be aware that unlike some previous City managers Cotts.' record shows he doesn't buckle under pressure and is not only always up for the fight, but invariably comes out on top.

I don't disagree with you fella...Cotts did ok at Burnley....finishing 13th and 17th....and then left by mutual consent in 15th, with 1 win in 10. Left Burnley with a 32% win record.

Look at his managerial record....and he does great at league 1 and below....but Championship and above, he's done nothing to suggest that he is the one to take this Club into a Promotion winning team.

 

[Kid in the Riot]

However much people try to diminish Cotterill's accomplishments he is actually more than proven at this level, indeed while at Burnley he became the longest serving Championship manager.

If you look at the state of BCFC when Cotterill took over and compare it to today any suggestion of sacking him borders on ludicrous. SL will be aware that unlike some previous City managers Cotts.' record shows he doesn't buckle under pressure and is not only always up for the fight, but invariably comes out on top.

1) SC's win % in The Championship is actually about 30% which equates to about 14 wins over the course of a season. That number of wins is always likely to have you struggling in this league. His best C'ship finish was at Burnley in his first season in charge: 13th.

2) He wasn't 'up for the fight' at Pompey and jumped ship to Forest, where he was failing badly until late on in the season when SOD arrived as his assistant.

[Nogbad the Bad]

 

Winning 1:3 is not necessarily a record to be scoffed at, very much depends on the state of the club when he took over and it's position in the pecking order of the division at the time.

The fact is Burnley were a stable Championship club throughout his tenure and, for them at the time that could certainly be seen as a success..

In the discussion we're having his Burnley record certainly proves him a capable Championship manager, and of course he's much older and more experienced now than when he took the reins at Turf Moor as a 40 year old.

All we can ask for at AG is reasonable progression, but if you are aware of another available manager who could better that and definitely take City to promotion I'd suggest SL would be grateful if you put that name forward asap.

[spudski]

Winning 1:3 is not necessarily a record to be scoffed at, very much depends on the state of the club when he took over and it's position in the pecking order of the division at the time.

The fact is Burnley were a stable Championship club throughout his tenure and, for them at the time that could certainly be seen as a success..

In the discussion we're having his Burnley record certainly proves him a capable Championship manager, and of course he's much older and more experienced now than when he took the reins at Turf Moor as a 40 year old.

All we can ask for at AG is reasonable progression, but if you are aware of another available manager who could better that and definitely take City to promotion I'd suggest SL would be grateful if you put that name forward asap.

If you read my posts correctly...I have said, I don't see SC as the manager to take make us into a Promotion winning Club. If SL thinks SC's record at a stable Club like Burnley of 13th, 17th and then let go at 15th is the record of someone to take this Club forward....then so be it....but where does that suggest he's been the type of manager that can take us to the Prem like SL wants? His win rate at Championship and above is.... 29.92%....his win rate at league 1 and below is much higher.

Like I said in my posts... people I respect who work in the game....one of which has close connections with Burnley and it's workings when Cotts was their....all said, he'd get us out of League 1 but don't expect much more.

I've not suggested we to sack him.... I've just noted that his record doesn't suggest we can expect much more out of him.

[Phileas Fogg]

Based on your gut instinct, if you had to stick  a tenner on "will SC be our manager by June 2016" - yes or no - what would you say? My gut feeling is no.

[Nogbad the Bad]

 

 

 

 

EDIT: In reply to Kid

You could argue it like that or take into account the state of clubs when he took over and what were reasonable expectations of 'success', and win percentages, at the time.

The fact is Burnley basically finished safe in the middle section of the Championship each season Cotterill was in charge.

He was very much up for the fight at Portsmouth in his first season, so much so he was offered, and took, a much better job early the following season when it was clear Portsmouth's financial problems meant there was no possibility whatsoever of progression there.

Not sure anyone could really blame him for that given Pompey's circumstances at the time; that wasn't a fight he could win, it was banging his head against a brick wall.

As for Forest we've since seen for ourselves that O'Driscoll wouldn't have made much positive difference in fighting off potential relegation so very dubious to award him all the credit for keeping Forest up.

[Kid in the Riot]

Winning 1:3 is not necessarily a record to be scoffed at, very much depends on the state of the club when he took over and it's position in the pecking order of the division at the time.

The fact is Burnley were a stable Championship club throughout his tenure and, for them at the time that could certainly be seen as a success..

In the discussion we're having his Burnley record certainly proves him a capable Championship manager, and of course he's much older and more experienced now than when he took the reins at Turf Moor as a 40 year old.

All we can ask for at AG is reasonable progression, but if you are aware of another available manager who could better that and definitely take City to promotion I'd suggest SL would be grateful if you put that name forward asap.

I think my concern with relying on his time at Burnley as proof that he is a proven Championship manager is that he left there just over 8 years ago.... The Championship seems a tougher league than it was 3 years ago, let alone 8.