Crossing The Rubicon - Cotts Out?

[Lew-T]

Can't believe there is even talk of this yet, some real deep discussions too! It's frankly pathetic at this stage.

 

It's the same people too. 

[Soul_Trader]

On the one hand ... he has said he is a winner and wants a winning mentality at the club.  Sounds good, worked well to start with and very well last season.  Against that back drop the table looks bad.

On the other .   This is still mostly a L1 team, a few changes yes, but mostly same team as last year.  

So given that fact, what position do you really expect?

Yes its a step up.   And we all know about our lack of transfers.

So my opinion is that you would only change managers IF you think those people did not sign, because of the manager and not wages or wish to play for a bigger club.

 

I think he had a VERY tough challenge when he came here.  Very few wanted him, he won the supporters over an now has a TEAM playing football.

For me I think this is a bump in the road ... no more ...

 

 

[downendcity]

Based on your gut instinct, if you had to stick  a tenner on "will SC be our manager by June 2016" - yes or no - what would you say? My gut feeling is no.

Quite right, as when we are promoted at the end of this season we will have to replace Cotts with a manager who has premier league experience.

 

Q.E.D.

 

 

 

[Steve Watts]

It's a tough one.  He has absolutely earned the right to be given time following his performance last season.  And chopping and changing has not helped us at all over the last few years, with the exception of Cotts appointment, when he came in with a lot of the foundations laid by SOD.

Therefore we must give him a chance to turn it around.  As at least one other has said (sorry - I skipped a few pages as I'm due back to work in a minute, so apologies if I'm repeating what was said on pages 2 &3!!), Saturday was the first really bad defeat of the season in terms of performance.

However....this is the squad that he has built, and it is not one that allows him to change from the system that currently is not working.  We simply don't have the personnel to switch to 4-4-2 - our central midfield would be even more fragile than it is now, and we don't have a good enough left back or a fit enough right back, so that's out.  I'd consider Reid instead of Wilbs, to add a little extra to the middle of the park, playing Reid & Freeman behind, and in support of, Kodjia, but that's pretty much the only options open to us in terms of a change of system and realistically that's down to the management team.

Kevin Nolan is currently training with Leyton Orient - that is exactly the type of player we should be spending high wages on.  We'd be saving a transfer fee, so put it into wages and see what he thinks.  It would at the very least allow us some flexibility.

Cotts is the reason we're in the predicament we're currently in.  But he's also the reason we're in that predicament in this division, and so for that reason alone he totally deserves the opportunity to get it right.  If that means going back down and keeping together a team proven to be able to get out of league one then so be it (but obviously i'd rather he sorted it before then!).  This club needs long term stability.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

It's a tough one.  He has absolutely earned the right to be given time following his performance last season.  And chopping and changing has not helped us at all over the last few years, with the exception of Cotts appointment, when he came in with a lot of the foundations laid by SOD.

Therefore we must give him a chance to turn it around.  As at least one other has said (sorry - I skipped a few pages as I'm due back to work in a minute, so apologies if I'm repeating what was said on pages 2 &3!!), Saturday was the first really bad defeat of the season in terms of performance.

However....this is the squad that he has built, and it is not one that allows him to change from the system that currently is not working.  We simply don't have the personnel to switch to 4-4-2 - our central midfield would be even more fragile than it is now, and we don't have a good enough left back or a fit enough right back, so that's out.  I'd consider Reid instead of Wilbs, to add a little extra to the middle of the park, playing Reid & Freeman behind, and in support of, Kodjia, but that's pretty much the only options open to us in terms of a change of system and realistically that's down to the management team.

Kevin Nolan is currently training with Leyton Orient - that is exactly the type of player we should be spending high wages on.  We'd be saving a transfer fee, so put it into wages and see what he thinks.  It would at the very least allow us some flexibility.

Cotts is the reason we're in the predicament we're currently in.  But he's also the reason we're in that predicament in this division, and so for that reason alone he totally deserves the opportunity to get it right.  If that means going back down and keeping together a team proven to be able to get out of league one then so be it (but obviously i'd rather he sorted it before then!).  This club needs long term stability.

Great post.  However, surely there will come a point when our owner will set the cost of the new stadium alongside the potential cost of relegation and decide that we really cannot afford to drop down to League One again.  My personal view is that if the situation hasn't improved by the end of November, the Board may feel that they need to get someone else in before the January transfer window closes.  Stability is meant to bring us progress, but stability for stability's sake is pointless.  I can accept a couple of average to poor seasons as we build for something better, but relegation this season really has to be regarded as unthinkable, particularly in the context of the ground development. 

[Steve Watts]

Great post.  However, surely there will come a point when our owner will set the cost of the new stadium alongside the potential cost of relegation and decide that we really cannot afford to drop down to League One again.  My personal view is that if the situation hasn't improved by the end of November, the Board may feel that they need to get someone else in before the January transfer window closes.  Stability is meant to bring us progress, but stability for stability's sake is pointless.  I can accept a couple of average to poor seasons as we build for something better, but relegation this season really has to be regarded as unthinkable, particularly in the context of the ground development. 

Absolutely this is the division we want to be in...We don't want to go down, but we know that this manager and these players can get us out of League One.  If the team falls apart, then obviously that's another matter.  But if (and it is a big if - we're only in September) we go down I don't think it would be the catastrophe that we were possibly facing last time.

Naturally we want to be playing Forest, not County; Wolves not Walsall.  But if we were to go down then we would be going down with the knowledge of what we would need in the squad to survive next time, and this squad would have a 12 months worth of experience in this league to go with it.  But keeping the squad together (and improving it) would be key and ideally it's a gamble we don't want to be taking.

Personally I think we will be ok this season.  We've played well enough in general and just need to make the right decisions on the ball (excuse the SODism) to cut out the silly mistakes and we're an upper bottom half team.  Kodjia will settle further still and I think we will be seeing Agard partnering him before long, whereby I think we will start to put away some of the chances we're creating (Saturday excepted!).

[spudski]

Absolutely this is the division we want to be in...We don't want to go down, but we know that this manager and these players can get us out of League One.  If the team falls apart, then obviously that's another matter.  But if (and it is a big if - we're only in September) we go down I don't think it would be the catastrophe that we were possibly facing last time.

Naturally we want to be playing Forest, not County; Wolves not Walsall.  But if we were to go down then we would be going down with the knowledge of what we would need in the squad to survive next time, and this squad would have a 12 months worth of experience in this league to go with it.  But keeping the squad together (and improving it) would be key and ideally it's a gamble we don't want to be taking.

Personally I think we will be ok this season.  We've played well enough in general and just need to make the right decisions on the ball (excuse the SODism) to cut out the silly mistakes and we're an upper bottom half team.  Kodjia will settle further still and I think we will be seeing Agard partnering him before long, whereby I think we will start to put away some of the chances we're creating (Saturday excepted!).

This Club can't afford to get relegated again.

Not even thinking about the new stadium....but we can't seemingly attract the players we need right now...what player would want to come here after another relegation....even if we could afford the wages.

For all we know....the players might settle and Cotts might turn it around....lets hope so.

But basing it on this years performances, we are too fragile to succeed. We will be with the same squad until January....we can only hope it gets better soon.

If we lose again next match and find ourselves bottom, alarm bells will start really ringing.....then the pressure becomes even greater.

The right decisions have to be made at some point.....stick or twist.....

[RumRed]

Absolutely this is the division we want to be in...We don't want to go down, but we know that this manager and these players can get us out of League One.  If the team falls apart, then obviously that's another matter.  But if (and it is a big if - we're only in September) we go down I don't think it would be the catastrophe that we were possibly facing last time.

Naturally we want to be playing Forest, not County; Wolves not Walsall.  But if we were to go down then we would be going down with the knowledge of what we would need in the squad to survive next time, and this squad would have a 12 months worth of experience in this league to go with it.  But keeping the squad together (and improving it) would be key and ideally it's a gamble we don't want to be taking.

Personally I think we will be ok this season.  We've played well enough in general and just need to make the right decisions on the ball (excuse the SODism) to cut out the silly mistakes and we're an upper bottom half team.  Kodjia will settle further still and I think we will be seeing Agard partnering him before long, whereby I think we will start to put away some of the chances we're creating (Saturday excepted!).

If we were to go down then even if we retained the same players, which I don't believe we would, it would not be the same fresh, enthused, confident team from last season.  We'd be absolute toast even if we kept them together, the cohesion and confidence would be gone and I think we'd be looking at quite a few years before we made it again.  

 

It would be an absolute disaster that can't be allowed to happen with the new stadium. 

[Major Isewater]

It's a tough one.  He has absolutely earned the right to be given time following his performance last season.  And chopping and changing has not helped us at all over the last few years, with the exception of Cotts appointment, when he came in with a lot of the foundations laid by SOD.

Therefore we must give him a chance to turn it around.  As at least one other has said (sorry - I skipped a few pages as I'm due back to work in a minute, so apologies if I'm repeating what was said on pages 2 &3!!), Saturday was the first really bad defeat of the season in terms of performance.

However....this is the squad that he has built, and it is not one that allows him to change from the system that currently is not working.  We simply don't have the personnel to switch to 4-4-2 - our central midfield would be even more fragile than it is now, and we don't have a good enough left back or a fit enough right back, so that's out.  I'd consider Reid instead of Wilbs, to add a little extra to the middle of the park, playing Reid & Freeman behind, and in support of, Kodjia, but that's pretty much the only options open to us in terms of a change of system and realistically that's down to the management team.

Kevin Nolan is currently training with Leyton Orient - that is exactly the type of player we should be spending high wages on.  We'd be saving a transfer fee, so put it into wages and see what he thinks.  It would at the very least allow us some flexibility.

Cotts is the reason we're in the predicament we're currently in.  But he's also the reason we're in that predicament in this division, and so for that reason alone he totally deserves the opportunity to get it right.  If that means going back down and keeping together a team proven to be able to get out of league one then so be it (but obviously i'd rather he sorted it before then!).  This club needs long term stability.

All we needed was 3 or 4 quality players to bring on the team of last season .

Frankly , even accepting that Championship wages have gone through not just the roof but the stratosphère as well , we either pay what it takes to compete or drop into the league of also rans and never will be's .

Cotts is at fault but not entirely. Stick i say but his crédit is dwindling with every loss and he needs a changé of luck soon.i hope he did n't use it all up last season.

[AshtonGreat]

All we needed was 3 or 4 quality players to bring on the team of last season .

Frankly , even accepting that Championship wages have gone through not just the roof but the stratosphère as well , we either pay what it takes to compete or drop into the league of also rans and never will be's .

Cotts is at fault but not entirely. Stick i say but his crédit is dwindling with every loss and he needs a changé of luck soon.i hope he did n't use it all up last season.

I blame Lansdown not Cotts. If he won't dig his hands in his pockets, expecting Cotts to build a promotion-challenging team is asking Cotts to work miracles. For me, very few managers could make that kind of progress with what Cotts has been given. 

[Shtanley]

I blame Lansdown not Cotts. If he won't dig his hands in his pockets, expecting Cotts to build a promotion-challenging team is asking Cotts to work miracles. For me, very few managers could make that kind of progress with what Cotts has been given. 

I am completely the opposite to you, there are plenty enough good players out there who wouldn't command a high wage and we failed to sign barely any of them, Cotts aimed too high at Gayle and Gray. Lansdown was willing to shell out £9m just not pay astronomical wages. Cotts should've been more realistic and we are paying the price for it. Bradshaw, Dack, Byrne, and Moncur are just a few of the league 1 players that would be great additions. 

[Steve Watts]

This Club can't afford to get relegated again.

Not even thinking about the new stadium....but we can't seemingly attract the players we need right now...what player would want to come here after another relegation....even if we could afford the wages.

For all we know....the players might settle and Cotts might turn it around....lets hope so.

But basing it on this years performances, we are too fragile to succeed. We will be with the same squad until January....we can only hope it gets better soon.

If we lose again next match and find ourselves bottom, alarm bells will start really ringing.....then the pressure becomes even greater.

The right decisions have to be made at some point.....stick or twist.....

That's the thing though.  We don't have the players to change the system effectively, so bringing in a new manager would only mean he'd have to work with what Cotts has available to him now anyway.  Therefore we stick.  He's earned that chance.  You then cannot really change in January as someone would need to get to know the players and requirements, in which case we stick for the season.  I believe that's the right choice, personally. 

As I said, I feel that we're not far away from being a team that can survive with the current squad, which has to be minimum requirements this year.  We're a little naive and prone to silly errors, but cut those out and we should be ok.  We still need to sign 3 or 4 players in January to strengthen and improve on "able to survive" and allow flexibility to our system. 

[Guest]

I blame Lansdown not Cotts. If he won't dig his hands in his pockets, expecting Cotts to build a promotion-challenging team is asking Cotts to work miracles. For me, very few managers could make that kind of progress with what Cotts has been given. 

Who is asking that of SC? Maybe one day, but right now his task is - and in my eyes always was only - to secure our place in this division next season. 

[AshtonGreat]

Who is asking that of SC? Maybe one day, but right now his task is - and in my eyes always was only - to secure our place in this division next season. 

Well if that's the case, people should accept that we're only eight games in and trust him to get on with his job. Like I've said before, it's unrealistic to expect us to win every game in this division. This season at least, we were always going to struggle.

 

P.S. Some people have written Cotts off as someone who won't get us promoted. My point was that no manager would with the funds he is being given

[spudski]

That's the thing though.  We don't have the players to change the system effectively, so bringing in a new manager would only mean he'd have to work with what Cotts has available to him now anyway.  Therefore we stick.  He's earned that chance.  You then cannot really change in January as someone would need to get to know the players and requirements, in which case we stick for the season.  I believe that's the right choice, personally. 

As I said, I feel that we're not far away from being a team that can survive with the current squad, which has to be minimum requirements this year.  We're a little naive and prone to silly errors, but cut those out and we should be ok.  We still need to sign 3 or 4 players in January to strengthen and improve on "able to survive" and allow flexibility to our system. 

I believe we have players that could work in a system that is slightly different to 352....it's a derivative of it...3421...it's slightly more defensive.

I don't think we have the quality needed in this league to compete successfully in a 352. We need a strong, experienced leader in DM and a replacement for Wilbs imho.

Wade has never been replaced properly...and Wilbs isn't cutting it imho.

This could possibly work, with the players we have....I posted it on another thread.

 

[Steve Watts]

I believe we have players that could work in a system that is slightly different to 352....it's a derivative of it...3421...it's slightly more defensive.

I don't think we have the quality needed in this league to compete successfully in a 352. We need a strong, experienced leader in DM and a replacement for Wilbs imho.

Wade has never been replaced properly...and Wilbs isn't cutting it imho.

This could possibly work, with the players we have....I posted it on another thread.

 

I agree and mentioned in another post a similar change - but with Reid instead of Agard, which may address the defensive frailties to a small degree by having an extra (albeit advanced) midfielder.  At the moment I would swap Wes Burns with Little in your team above, purely because it appears that Little still isn't right, and if he doesn't have the required mobility then his game is compromised too much.  If he needs time to fully recover then he should be given it to allow him to come back fully effective.  But that is still only a tweak to the formation rather than something to address the issue of teams walking through us.

And that underlines the squad issues perfectly.  We need someone who can replace Pack in the middle there and we don't have anyone defensively minded enough to cover for Little while he recovers.  We are massively short of key alternative options.  Could also do with getting Baker fit to allow us to take Williams out of the spotlight for a while.

[Alessandro]

I think we have the players for a different system for sure. The popular 4-2-3-1 is certainly an option.

 

                      Fielding

Ayling/Moore   Flint   Baker  Williams

                Pack/Ayling    Smith

Little/Agard      Freeman          Bryan

                    Kodjia

 

This wouldn't be far different to our current system, we lose the target man for a more numbers at the back.

[Spoons]

samo11, so after 140 plus replies and some pure quality debate, which wouldn't look out of place on question time, did we decide to sack cotterill or stick with him??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

I think we have the players for a different system for sure. The popular 4-2-3-1 is certainly an option.

 

                      Fielding

Ayling/Moore   Flint   Baker  Williams

                Pack/Ayling    Smith

Little/Agard      Freeman          Bryan

                    Kodjia

 

This wouldn't be far different to our current system, we lose the target man for a more numbers at the back.

That's pretty much what I'd go for too, with the addition of Reid for Freeman if Saturday is anything to go by.

[samo II]

samo11, so after 140 plus replies and some pure quality debate, which wouldn't look out of place on question time, did we decide to sack cotterill or stick with him??

As it's achingly clear you are unable to grasp the concept of a discussion forum, my suggestion would be to read the myriad of different opinions and come to your own conclusions - there is no "we" here when it comes to opinions; that's the point.

And if you need someone to explain the word 'conclusions' to you before you fly off the handle and start screaming about being surrounded by traitors or some such other nonsense as you are prone to do, then allow me to recommend the following site - www.google.co.uk

[Spoons]

As it's achingly clear you are unable to grasp the concept of a discussion forum, my suggestion would be to read the myriad of different opinions and come to your own conclusions - there is no "we" here when it comes to opinions; that's the point.

And if you need someone to explain the word 'conclusions' to you before you fly off the handle and start screaming about being surrounded by traitors or some such other nonsense as you are prone to do, then allow me to recommend the following site - www.google.co.uk

so he stays?! That's my conclusion

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[samo II]

so he stays?! That's my conclusion

There you go; isn't so hard, is it?

Only took you three days to get the point of the thread.  

[bristolcitysweden]

The kettle is boiling though..

[bristolcitysweden]

1/4 of the season played and the same point ratio and he is likely for a gardening leave.

Four games for improvemnet or game over unfourtionately.

 

[BCFC Jordan]

I genuinely don't think it's the system.

 

If we had gone into the season with momentum and a boost from new signings, the system wouldn't be a concern. Now that we're struggling people want to revert to a more negative formation, which won't necessarily solve anything, especially when it means abandoning the system that brought us so much success and that has been what our players have been used to.

 

It'd just be like McInnes went overly negative after we lost a few at the start of 12/13. He never recovered from being so negative.

 

If we'd have strengthened adequately, it would not be a problem. Now we're completely stuck because we haven't strengthened and people are blaming the system.

[marmite]

38 games to play..........and we are 7 points off the play offs.  Just saying

[stephenkibby.]

I genuinely don't think it's the system.

 

If we had gone into the season with momentum and a boost from new signings, the system wouldn't be a concern. Now that we're struggling people want to revert to a more negative formation, which won't necessarily solve anything, especially when it means abandoning the system that brought us so much success and that has been what our players have been used to.

 

It'd just be like McInnes went overly negative after we lost a few at the start of 12/13. He never recovered from being so negative.

 

If we'd have strengthened adequately, it would not be a problem. Now we're completely stuck because we haven't strengthened and people are blaming the system.

ok the transfer thing has gone, apart from an odd loan that's it.

Were not relegated yet and after talking to a villa season ticket holder it sounds like Baker is just the sort of player we need, sounds Taylor all over. And as he's here for the season if he stays fit could be a great signing.

It sounds like cotts is going to keep going for it so all our formation advice is going to fall on deaf ears!

going to be a very bumpy ride lads and lasses but can we keep the faith for just a few more weeks?

urrreeedddsss.

[spudski]

I agree and mentioned in another post a similar change - but with Reid instead of Agard, which may address the defensive frailties to a small degree by having an extra (albeit advanced) midfielder.  At the moment I would swap Wes Burns with Little in your team above, purely because it appears that Little still isn't right, and if he doesn't have the required mobility then his game is compromised too much.  If he needs time to fully recover then he should be given it to allow him to come back fully effective.  But that is still only a tweak to the formation rather than something to address the issue of teams walking through us.

And that underlines the squad issues perfectly.  We need someone who can replace Pack in the middle there and we don't have anyone defensively minded enough to cover for Little while he recovers.  We are massively short of key alternative options.  Could also do with getting Baker fit to allow us to take Williams out of the spotlight for a while.

After watching the U 21's tonight, especially Little, I'd agree...he still needs to find his fitness. Burns and Reid both looked effective tonight...especially Burns. He really has developed his strength this season. Agard also looked sharper. So options are their I feel :-)

[Bangkok Red]

The fact is Burnley basically finished safe in the middle section of the Championship each season Cotterill was in charge.

Yep and that doesn't take into account that Burnley were skint and had to sell their best players every season while Cotterill was there. Keeping Burnley safe for that period was no small achievement.

It also overlooks the fact that 9 of the 11 players in the Burnley side that Owen Coyle got promoted to the premier league were Cotterill signings.

[spudski]

I think the comments of Steve Clark tell you all you need to know. Any coach worth their salt will have done the same. So, as we are unlikely to be able to change the players ability overnight, SC will be forced to make tactical changes to tighten the team up. He himself said strikers at this level are more clinical, therefore you need to give them less opportunity. SC is far from stupid, and should be given every chance to turn this around. I expect him to use a back 4 sometime soon, but in front of that, due to lack of options I am not so sure what he is going to apply. 

But SC has earnt the right to sort this, and will be given I am sure every opportunity to get it right. If we are bottom in January then it is out of his hands . We cannot go back to L1 without a fight. 

I believe he's too stubborn to try something different. He believes in this system it seems...almost blinkered. Can't see him changing it myself.