Crossing The Rubicon - Cotts Out?

[Mighty Squirrel Kingdom]

Sacking SC now would be a mistake. 

I'd rather be the position we are now and have seven months to sort it out than find ourselves in a relegation battle with eight games left. I wasn't expecting us to be 23rd by the end of September but I wasn't expecting to be in the top ten either.

If you take a look at who we've played, five of those eight games have been against teams in the top half of the table. By the end of November we'll have a far better idea of where we'll be at the end of the season.

[NickJ]

 

Like I said in my posts... people I respect who work in the game....one of which has close connections with Burnley and it's workings when Cotts was their....all said, he'd get us out of League 1 but don't expect much more.

Given that in league 1 we were battling against the likes of Crewe and Crawley, whereas most of the Championship teams have recent Premiership credentials, that's not much of an insight.

[WTFiGO!?!]

The great 'should he stay or should he go' debate is flickering into life then? Dig your trenches and prepare for conflict, the genie can't be re-bottled   

I hope results pick up because it's like groundhog day - the first bad run in 20 odd months and questions are being asked.

The club's problems run deeper than who's name is on the manager's door and always have done.  

[Anglia Red]

People have to short a memory or no patients, we continuity not uncertainty.

No patients -Is this casualty!

[YorkshireSection]

You might get some flack for this, and I'm not saying that Cotts should be sacked, but it makes sense. Southampton had success with Nigel Adkins, but when they reached the Premiership he was promptly sacked. This may have seemed harsh at the time but, based on results, it was the correct decision. Cotts has got to prove that he can sort it out and if he can't, unfortunately, he'll have to be replaced. Steve Lansdown won't want to have the best ground in league 1 

I'd agree there and this is where I don't understand tha transfer regime logic, offer a premier league fee for a player but pay him top end league 1 (Sheffield Utd/ low end Championship team (U.S.) wages.

so if we were to get a new manger how would it be more financial prudent to bring in a bigger manager, who'd want different players to play his system.

it see s to me than SC is here for the long running and is expected to preform miracles with as he did last year, however somewhere in the whole process everyone apart from the manga get can see playing 3-5-2 is probably going to get you relegated my March, I don't understand whet that suits anyone.

If we are in what looks like a pretty much relegation spot by January then you bring in a new manger, give him the resources to build a formation around the personnel we have now and say keep us up under any guise.

3-5-2 without the likes of Cruyff, Pele, Maradonna and Joe Jordan really isn't going to work in this league.........

unless we bulk up the squad with quality loaness ( note the word quality there)

I want SC to succeed but it feels like there's some weird division being alluded towards somewhere along the line

ps I want SC to turn us around, but if this was a business scenario involving SL I can't help but think he'd be extremely ruthless, or slightly widening the purse strings in regards to financially how much relegation would cost us a lot less.

 

Either way I have hope that this will end with us up in the championship next season, in all honestly I don't care how.

 

[AshtonGreat]

No because Casualty has got patients

I am completely the opposite to you, there are plenty enough good players out there who wouldn't command a high wage and we failed to sign barely any of them, Cotts aimed too high at Gayle and Gray. Lansdown was willing to shell out £9m just not pay astronomical wages. Cotts should've been more realistic and we are paying the price for it. Bradshaw, Dack, Byrne, and Moncur are just a few of the league 1 players that would be great additions. 

[Bangkok Red]

So it was an achievement to keep them up, but the next guy got them promoted..?

The point being that Cotterill has shown he can succeed at this level.

Assembling a side for very little money that went on to get promoted to the premier league is no small achievement - even if he wasn't at the helm when it happened.

That's in addition to the 5 promotions and 2 cup wins he's had with other teams.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eddie Hitler]

Who do we want to replace him then?  Neil Warnock, Big Sam?

He's shown he can do it, this season's poor start is entirely down to the poor transfer window action and from what I have read that canot be laid at Steve's door.

I want him to be here at the end of the season whatever happens.

[spudski]

The point being that Cotterill has shown he can succeed at this level.

Assembling a side for very little money that went on to get promoted to the premier league is no small achievement - even if he wasn't at the helm when it happened.

That's in addition to the 5 promotions and 2 cup wins he's had with other teams.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes...he did, at a very stable club...then someone took that group of players and gained promotion with them, after he was let go with one win in ten....now he's gained promotion to the Championship, with players that have predominantly very little Championship experience.

Has had a nightmare recruiting players this season, brought in a bunch of loans ( panic ) that have yet to show any worth, had a player leave after an alleged training ground incident, allegedly fallen out with numerous people at the Club, seen Pelling leave, not been able to replace Wade properly ( a major problem ), lost badly to Luton in the Cup,  lost 5, Drawn 2, and won 1 game in the league....conceded the most goals in the league with Rotherham, have major injury problems with Little and possibly now Smith, plus players coming back from injury... has an aging CF....and now pretty much stuck with the playing staff we have until January. Used up our loans allowed, and has shown complete frustration and arrogance openly in the media, and often talks bollox in defeat

The only positive I've seen so far is Kodjia and a few of the younger players showing promise.

[Major Isewater]

Yes...he did, at a very stable club...then someone took that group of players and gained promotion with them, after he was let go with one win in ten....now he's gained promotion to the Championship, with players that have predominantly very little Championship experience.

Has had a nightmare recruiting players this season, brought in a bunch of loans ( panic ) that have yet to show any worth, had a player leave after an alleged training ground incident, allegedly fallen out with numerous people at the Club, seen Pelling leave, not been able to replace Wade properly ( a major problem ), lost badly to Luton in the Cup,  lost 5, Drawn 2, and won 1 game in the league....conceded the most goals in the league with Rotherham, have major injury problems with Little and possibly now Smith, plus players coming back from injury... has an aging CF....and now pretty much stuck with the playing staff we have until January. Used up our loans allowed, and has shown complete frustration and arrogance openly in the media, and often talks bollox in defeat

The only positive I've seen so far is Kodjia and a few of the younger players showing promise.

When you look at it like that , it's pretty grim.

Reid and Burns , i'm sure would n't have been given a chance if the transfer window had gone as planned.

[spudski]

When you look at it like that , it's pretty grim.

Reid and Burns , i'm sure would n't have been given a chance if the transfer window had gone as planned.

Cotts misfortune in the transfer market, maybe Burns and Reids lucky break....I hope they get the chance to take it. After watching both closely last night, they deserve the break imho.

[Nogbad the Bad]

 

[Nogbad the Bad]

 

[NickJ]

Spudski you seem very negative, or questioning at best, of Cotterill.

Always have been.

Why?

 

[spudski]

Spudski you seem very negative, or questioning at best, of Cotterill.

Always have been.

Why?

 

Not negative at all mate....just pointing out what I've always believed.

When he took over from SoD, based purely on what people I trust told me, I believed him to be the manager that would get us out of League 1. He did.

After that....they all said it would go pear shaped....it's been nothing but a disaster since the end of last season, so.... as they predicted, it's starting to look that way.

It's only what I think....I've made my own mind up based on that.

Others think he's the Messiah, and think he deserves longer here based on his achievements from last year....that's their prerogative.

What I or they think, makes no difference...it's just 'football' talk.

However....you cannot just dismiss what I've posted in the previous post above, and think where we stand right now is positive....surely?

Personally....I don't think he's the manager to take us forward. But it's not up to me.

If he proves me wrong....then great.... I don't want the Club I support to get relegated again or struggle.

We all want success...however...it doesn't mean we all have to have a love in with the manager.

I appreciated GJ getting us to the Wembley play offs...never liked his way though.

In the same way, I didn't like John Wards or Russell Osmans way.

Horses for courses.

But like I said...if he gets us up the league and looking more like a solid Championship outfit...then great.

But...if it was up to me....then i'd get rid now. Just my preference.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Agree with you Spudski other than the fact I'm not sure that I'd do anything for now.

my main concern would be firstly we have a squad tailored for SCs formation and with the loan basket full and no transfer window until January I'm not sure what any new manager could drastically change

several posters have put forward some interesting formations and line ups that are on the face of it reasonable alternatives but I'm not sure we have the depth or quality in the current squad to expect a real turnaround.

I don't think SC will change formation (I would) but I'd like to think he will at least adjust it and reel the wing backs in.

I just pray that Kodjia keeps his head up and continues to provide a threat, and we have enough in us to pinch a few results atm.

Personally I would be very aware of the managerial market and if an ideal candidate became available I'd focus my decision at that point.

What we really mustn't do is pull the trigger on SC without having a planned replacement.

Without knowing the answers to specific questions I've posted elsewhere I would stick with SC whilst keeping a close eye on what is going on in all areas and keeping up regular dialogue with SC , gauging his assessments and ongoing plans.

i guess what what would be key for me , even above immediate results and SCs tactics would be whether he has the squad fully behind him, and the mood behind the scenes.

This season, more than most I can ever remember, with the threadbare squad I feel we need the internal spirit and togetherness to be very good to give us a realistic chance of stabilising.

If all is well I'd remain patient

If it's not that would prompt me to act (if there is not a realistic chance of quick repair) to act more quickly than any concerns over formations, transfer dealings and even to some degree over points in the very short term

[NOTBLUE]

Cotts misfortune in the transfer market, maybe Burns and Reids lucky break....I hope they get the chance to take it. After watching both closely last night, they deserve the break imho.

Lets hope so,they need a run of games without the fear of being dropped after one or two,only problem is that we are losing games and they may lose out to more senior pro's who might not be up to the challenge themselves.

[Guest]

I must be honest I am totally unconcerned about what SC has achieved in this League before. It is a totally different beast to what it was when he last managed in it and we are nothing like those other clubs in the sense that we are building a ground, have cash (but not wages - a policy I agree with) to burn and we have a relatively small squad which allows us plenty of room to shape it as he designs - subject to successfully completing transfers of course*.

The League alone is like comparing apples and pears before even getting close to how different we are as clubs: no established pros here for one. As another it's now a team in his image rather than doing the best with what he's got - which many already point to as a difficulty of a new manager coming in.

I'm not sure who it was who wrote it - it wasn't my SOD sparring partner Spudski - but one poster wrote in this past week in response to Reading being our sole poor performance that playing well and not picking up points is the most worrying. This from a supporter of SOD who famously advocated ignore results and it's the performances what count. Didn't enjoy that programme note/interview/youtube video then?

It only took that one instance above to make me think actually there probably are still some of our fan base with the knives sharpened- those that never wanted SC in the first place, that their gratitude was extremely short lived, that they are happy to look past the manager that SC has become today and all that his experiences (including here) have taught him and judge him by what has gone before even though that which went before is completely incomparable.

SC has his bad points. Of course he does. Without them he wouldn't be here. However, there's not one person I can think of right now I'd rather have over him, and that includes 'better' candidates. I can say that because I don't believe achieving in this division is beyond SC and I am amazed anyone can say so based upon his history which imo should be disregarded as irrelevant; I think of all managers SC gives us incredible stability. I also think it sends the wrong message to write him off so damn early into the season.

* Before anyone picks up on this, I'm not saying it wasn't a failure of the summer, and neither am I saying heads should not roll. But I am saying not necessarily SC's - we have a DOF structure and a board which means there's plenty of blame to be shared amongst plenty of individuals. However, we'd be foolish to not at least see it as a strength of our team that we have space in our squad to accommodate improvements without being required to move some players on. Come January there will be 23 other clubs in the Championship envious of our squad in that sense I am certain. I also have utmost belief that by January we will also be looking much healthier based upon the performances I have seen so far.

 

 

[glynriley]

I must be honest I am totally unconcerned about what SC has achieved in this League before. It is a totally different beast to what it was when he last managed in it and we are nothing like those other clubs in the sense that we are building a ground, have cash (but not wages - a policy I agree with) to burn and we have a relatively small squad which allows us plenty of room to shape it as he designs - subject to successfully completing transfers of course*.

The League alone is like comparing apples and pears before even getting close to how different we are as clubs: no established pros here for one. As another it's now a team in his image rather than doing the best with what he's got - which many already point to as a difficulty of a new manager coming in.

I'm not sure who it was who wrote it - it wasn't my SOD sparring partner Spudski - but one poster wrote in this past week in response to Reading being our sole poor performance that playing well and not picking up points is the most worrying. This from a supporter of SOD who famously advocated ignore results and it's the performances what count. Didn't enjoy that programme note/interview/youtube video then?

It only took that one instance above to make me think actually there probably are still some of our fan base with the knives sharpened- those that never wanted SC in the first place, that their gratitude was extremely short lived, that they are happy to look past the manager that SC has become today and all that his experiences (including here) have taught him and judge him by what has gone before even though that which went before is completely incomparable.

SC has his bad points. Of course he does. Without them he wouldn't be here. However, there's not one person I can think of right now I'd rather have over him, and that includes 'better' candidates. I can say that because I don't believe achieving in this division is beyond SC and I am amazed anyone can say so based upon his history which imo should be disregarded as irrelevant; I think of all managers SC gives us incredible stability. I also think it sends the wrong message to write him off so damn early into the season.

* Before anyone picks up on this, I'm not saying it wasn't a failure of the summer, and neither am I saying heads should not roll. But I am saying not necessarily SC's - we have a DOF structure and a board which means there's plenty of blame to be shared amongst plenty of individuals. However, we'd be foolish to not at least see it as a strength of our team that we have space in our squad to accommodate improvements without being required to move some players on. Come January there will be 23 other clubs in the Championship envious of our squad in that sense I am certain. I also have utmost belief that by January we will also be looking much healthier based upon the performances I have seen so far.

 

 

It's amazing isn't it?? When SOD was sacked the board were criticised for short term thinking and not letting a manager build something. Now all of a sudden, it's sack Cotts now!!

Also quite astonishing that the fiercest critic of SOD's sacking and the subsequent appointment of Cotterill, now tells us he knew SC would get us promotion all along!!

What a difference a couple of years makes!!  TTFN.

 

 

 

[spudski]

Agree with you Spudski other than the fact I'm not sure that I'd do anything for now.

my main concern would be firstly we have a squad tailored for SCs formation and with the loan basket full and no transfer window until January I'm not sure what any new manager could drastically change

several posters have put forward some interesting formations and line ups that are on the face of it reasonable alternatives but I'm not sure we have the depth or quality in the current squad to expect a real turnaround.

I don't think SC will change formation (I would) but I'd like to think he will at least adjust it and reel the wing backs in.

I just pray that Kodjia keeps his head up and continues to provide a threat, and we have enough in us to pinch a few results atm.

Personally I would be very aware of the managerial market and if an ideal candidate became available I'd focus my decision at that point.

What we really mustn't do is pull the trigger on SC without having a planned replacement.

Without knowing the answers to specific questions I've posted elsewhere I would stick with SC whilst keeping a close eye on what is going on in all areas and keeping up regular dialogue with SC , gauging his assessments and ongoing plans.

i guess what what would be key for me , even above immediate results and SCs tactics would be whether he has the squad fully behind him, and the mood behind the scenes.

This season, more than most I can ever remember, with the threadbare squad I feel we need the internal spirit and togetherness to be very good to give us a realistic chance of stabilising.

If all is well I'd remain patient

If it's not that would prompt me to act (if there is not a realistic chance of quick repair) to act more quickly than any concerns over formations, transfer dealings and even to some degree over points in the very short term

As you know fella, with anything in this game, it's all about timing and fit of manager, plus will they take the Club forward.

You make some very valid points...re the players we have here, and if another manager came in, what they would be able to achieve.

Bit of a catch 22.

Give it til the end of October...still in the same position, I'd make a change regardless.

Not saying why...but I've got money on LJ being our next manager.

No proven track record...but that's where I think we'll look next.

[Frenchay Red]

As you know fella, with anything in this game, it's all about timing and fit of manager, plus will they take the Club forward.

You make some very valid points...re the players we have here, and if another manager came in, what they would be able to achieve.

Bit of a catch 22.

Give it til the end of October...still in the same position, I'd make a change regardless.

Not saying why...but I've got money on LJ being our next manager.

No proven track record...but that's where I think we'll look next.

If that happened I might change my name to "Depths of Despair"

[NickJ]

Not negative at all mate....just pointing out what I've always believed.

When he took over from SoD, based purely on what people I trust told me, I believed him to be the manager that would get us out of League 1. He did.

After that....they all said it would go pear shaped....it's been nothing but a disaster since the end of last season, so.... as they predicted, it's starting to look that way.

 

But that's hardly a stunning prediction is it.

Getting promotion from division 3 and struggling in division 2 is what we have nearly always done.

Plus, I don't see a disaster, yet, and even if it was, is that the fault of the manager of the football team or of the way in which the club is managed?

[NickJ]

Not negative at all mate....just pointing out what I've always believed.

When he took over from SoD, based purely on what people I trust told me, I believed him to be the manager that would get us out of League 1. He did.

 

Plus you didn't seem to have much confidence in Cotterill in this thread for example:

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/161463-dressing-room-lost/&page=3

I would say you expected Cotterill to get us out of Div 1 by relegation not promotion!

 

[NickJ]

If that happened I might change my name to "Depths of Despair"

See what you did there very clever!

[Ashtonboy]

Plus you didn't seem to have much confidence in Cotterill in this thread for example:

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/161463-dressing-room-lost/&page=3

I would say you expected Cotterill to get us out of Div 1 by relegation not promotion!

 

Spuds postings, on the thread you have linked, sum up his feelings towards SC and in my opinion suggests a relegation from lg1 under his tenure! He also states quite clearly that the majority of fans were saddened by the axing of SOD!! Nick, I think the leader of the Sodites is quietly relishing our current position, which is very sad indeed.

[Phileas Fogg]

Spuds postings, on the thread you have linked, sum up his feelings towards SC and in my opinion suggests a relegation from lg1 under his tenure! He also states quite clearly that the majority of fans were saddened by the axing of SOD!! Nick, I think the leader of the Sodites is quietly relishing our current position, which is very sad indeed.

Don't think so - Spudski would only want the best for the club, as we all do.

He's made his opinions on SO'D and SC clear many times over the last couple of years.

Seems obvious to me something is/was afoot over summer at the club and I'm sure Pelling leaving is linked in somewhere.

[NickJ]

Spuds postings, on the thread you have linked, sum up his feelings towards SC and in my opinion suggests a relegation from lg1 under his tenure! He also states quite clearly that the majority of fans were saddened by the axing of SOD!! Nick, I think the leader of the Sodites is quietly relishing our current position, which is very sad indeed.

That would be sad.

To quote from Spudski (or "Depths of Despair" as was) from that thread in March 2014:

So if we do achieve staving off relegation...does anyone really believe SC is the right man to create a team that will win promotion in the future?

How long is his contract? In football terms it's massive these days...He has no pressure on him to do well financially...it's signed and sealed for a good few years.

Lets face it...this club has ****** up again.

Sorry Spudski but you certainly didn't predict Cotterill to get us promotion from Div 1.

[BS4 on Tour...]

3-5-2 without the likes of Cruyff, Pele, Maradonna and Joe Jordan really isn't going to work in this league.........

unless we bulk up the squad with quality loaness ( note the word quality there)

 

 

...with all due respect to yourself and our great former centre forward and manager - I bet he's never seen his name in a list including those other three!

And I wasn't noting the word 'quality' I was more interested in the 'loaness' - is that a female 'loanee' ??!

Apologies chief!

[spudski]

That would be sad.

To quote from Spudski (or "Depths of Despair" as was) from that thread in March 2014:

So if we do achieve staving off relegation...does anyone really believe SC is the right man to create a team that will win promotion in the future?

How long is his contract? In football terms it's massive these days...He has no pressure on him to do well financially...it's signed and sealed for a good few years.

Lets face it...this club has ****** up again.

Sorry Spudski but you certainly didn't predict Cotterill to get us promotion from Div 1.

Blimey...i'm flattered....you seem to have a strange fixation on what I've posted.

And you are quiet correct...back in March last year...I really didn't think Cotts would be the man to get us promotion.

I spoke, as you do, to people that I trust in football...and they all said he'd get us promotion.....but after that....it would go pear shape. They, so far are correct imho.

As for relishing our position....really? How mad an idea is that. Because I prefer Sod as a manager to SC? No manager is bigger than the Club....so that really is a weird way of thinking.

I really can't get my head around people fixating about what other forum members think, rather than discussing 'football'...isn't that a bit weird?

Why do you give a shit about what I think? What difference does it make?

Why not just discuss football and the Clubs pros and cons...instead of what another forum member thinks....all very odd.

[NickJ]

Blimey...i'm flattered....you seem to have a strange fixation on what I've posted.

And you are quiet correct...back in March last year...I really didn't think Cotts would be the man to get us promotion.

I spoke, as you do, to people that I trust in football...and they all said he'd get us promotion.....but after that....it would go pear shape. They, so far are correct imho.

As for relishing our position....really? How mad an idea is that. Because I prefer Sod as a manager to SC? No manager is bigger than the Club....so that really is a weird way of thinking.

I really can't get my head around people fixating about what other forum members think, rather than discussing 'football'...isn't that a bit weird?

Why do you give a shit about what I think? What difference does it make?

Why not just discuss football and the Clubs pros and cons...instead of what another forum member thinks....all very odd.

I haven't got a fixation don't even know who you are, but, and I don't mean to be rude, you are a bullshiter aren't you.

In this thread you say that you always said you believed Cotterill would get us promoted from League One, but that is proved a lie from what you said over a year ago.

You are entitled to your opinions but at least be big enough to admit you were wrong.

Going forwards you may be right about Cotterill's ability to take us further, but as I said before, that's hardly a stunning prediction given our past history and who we are now competing against.

As for discuss football, well......

........I'm in my 47th season supporting City and Cotterill 14/15 is up there with Dicks 75/76 and Cooper 83/84......

........ and most people I have spoken to this season agree with me that although poor against Reading we have deserved much more than 1 point from the previous 3 home games AND we have continued to play fantastic football in those games AND the entertainment value from the games as a whole is first rate.

Yes I agree there are issues with how the club is run particularly outside of the first team set up, but how about give the manager a break?