Cotts now under pressure??

[1960maaan]

Is SC under pressure, every manager is to some extent and with the new stadium and needing to consolidate he's bound to be. The thing is SL is not known for kneejerk firing so unless we continue to lose he'll be here for a while yet.

I've said elsewhere that this window is always tough, can't see it being any different this time, so loans or permanent new players will be key. We are not only a little light on quality, but cover is thin all over. 

The argument over Gale and Gray is interesting. 

A , says it was embarrassing we were never going to pay the wages.

B , says, we matched (or got close to ) the wages Burnley offered. Which would mean both Gale and Gray were missed out on for Football reasons, not that embarrassing really. Actually nice to see we went for good players with a resale value, just didn't happen.

As for the recruitment policy during the summer, I heard SC had a long list none of which we got. Not sure why, not sure we'll ever know but SC has seemed to put the blame squarely on the Clubs shoulders, not a wise move Imho. I've a feeling it was partly for the fans and partly for his reputation.

Worse case ? I'd say he's safe until the end of December, if we were adrift I'd expect a new manager given money and the window to use it. If we're where we are now or a little higher I'd expect Cott's to be in charge until the summer.

In Steve we trust 

[Robin1988]

37 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Cotterill's probable brief when appointed:

13/14 :SL: I realise the club's in a diabolical state, and it's a big ask, but please, for Christ's sake keep Bristol City in the 3rd division. TIck.

14/15, 15/16: If you keep the club up, fantastic, but that's just the start. The next requirement is for you to build the club and get us promoted to the Championship within 2 years. Tick, ahead of schedule.

15/16 or 16/17 onwards: I'm a realist. I don't expect miracles or immediate success in the Championship, I realise it's an extremely tough league and we will be amongst the smaller clubs if we get there. First and foremost the aim would be to maintain Championship status while the ground development is completed and beyond. The club should establish itself in the Championship and then progress each year with the ultimate aim of getting to the PL within 5 years. Ongoing.

I know there will be disappointing periods along the way, but if we are on course to achieve these goals you can be certain I will support you through the inevitable hard times and, within reason, back you all the way financially.

Something like that I assume. A reasonable long term plan, with stability at the heart, and SC so far well on course.

 

Very well said.

[bcfcnick]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

If the wins don't come something has to be done differently .

Perhaps Cotts should stop thinking he manages Barcelona and set his team up to not get beaten first of all and then next season , hope we are still here and can push on with a squad suited to the rigours of the Championship .

We only have the budget to be a lower level Championship team and if the reality means we can only be in the bottom half of the Championship then I would prefer the team to at least try and entertain.  Turgid negatively minded football (as per under SOD) is not only less easy on the eye but, certainly with our squad, it would pick up less points than the more attacking approach that currently prevails.   The players within the squad are not ones who can grind out scoreless draws away and nick a few home wins 1-0.  The manager has to play to the strengths of the players in the squad and continue with the current system. SC's not blindly gung-ho and he has been astute enough to bring in Baker and has put in the more defensively minded Williams as left wing back.   We have competed and on occasions out-played the top teams so there is a thin dividing line between being in the bottom six and mid-table comfort.  

SL doesn't like to change managers too readily and I am glad about that. He does, however, like to be on friendly terms with his manager.  I've no doubt prior to the recruitment fiasco he was on friendly terms with SC but I suspect owner /manager relations were put to the test during that period.  So, as long as good relations have been maintained / restored, then SC is likely to stay in place.   It's important to have unity at the club and as long as that is in place and SL gives SC the backing to bring in three quality players then I'm sure SC will steer the club to comfortable safety.   SC is not just full of empty words, he backed his "I'm a winner" statements with a highly impressive season last year.  I've little doubt he will over time punch above the level his budget provides for.  A bit of backing for SC in the January window and a more sensible recruitment policy ( either overseas or the cream of lower leagues) should see us climb the table and prepare for better things next season.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, Woodsy said:

Fordy!? At least you didn't call me @TETBURY MASSIVE

The rugby thing only really clicked with me the other day, this is the time of year when the majority of business is done in relation to the squad for next season (always found that odd), every top star available next season is linked to Bristol. As most will know, I'm a Gloucester fan - we can't afford to keep up with Bristol. Worrying, unless you're a Bristol fan, I suspect. Sure I've read somewhere that rugby is SL's first love?

 Lansdown out ! 

['Orns]

25 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

 Lansdown out ! 

Tell me how we are better off now then we were when SL bought us? Shiny new stadium, all ready for Colchester, aside - I don't see what we've achieved. New stadiums are lovely, of course, but a winning team is much better

He has not improved the playing side of the club at all. Lovely new stadium, training ground massively improved, we're still a pretty poor Div 2 team

[Robin1988]

1 hour ago, Woodsy said:

Tell me how we are better off now then we were when SL bought us? Shiny new stadium, all ready for Colchester, aside - I don't see what we've achieved. New stadiums are lovely, of course, but a winning team is much better

He has not improved the playing side of the club at all. Lovely new stadium, training ground massively improved, we're still a pretty poor Div 2 team

Sure I remember us winning a couple of trophies last season, something about a first league title in 60 years or something like that, I could be wrong though.

[REDOXO]

20 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

He can always sack those that deserve it. Who's next? 

Hey Cotswold....Might be up your way some time soon....! I pretty much refer you to Nogbad below

3 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Those wondering whether SL 'will act', or what choice will be made by him regarding Cotterill's future, seem to have forgotten one thing.

The majority of SL's managerial decisions have not just been failures, but disastrous failures, and he recognised that fact.

Thus Keith Dawe chose Cotterill - yes, undoubtedly finally rubber stamped by SL - but he was appointed on Dawe's recommendation nonetheless.

The appointment of SC has proved to be an inspired choice so unless and until Keith Dawe is in agreement that a managerial change has to be made - and it's hard to believe we're anywhere near that situation imo - I suggest it won't happen.

I doubt SL wants to risk serious boardroom ructions and the possibility of falling out with his Chairman and longest serving boardroom associate, when the club is not in crisis and the fanbase, though naturally concerned at the league position, are largely behind the manager. 

SL will know the real reasons for the transfer fiasco and precisely where any individual or collective responsibility lay. He'll know how hard it's been historically to find the right manager to fit this club and that there is no guarantee a new manager will be an improvement. He'll be wary that dressing room morale could be shattered by the dismissal of the manager who not only signed the majority of the players but has raised their divisional status, thereby markedly increasing their wages and career prospects.

SL will also be well aware that SC has never been relegated from this league and, despite a worrying off day yesterday, there's no chance a team managed by Steve Cotterill is going to be relegated with barely a whimper.

In fact his managerial history shows the strong likelihood is he will actually keep City up, and with a stable managerial structure plus the lessons learned by all concerned from the Summer transfer fiasco, the club would then be in it's strongest position to progress next season.

With his largely lamentable record when it comes to appointing managers SL will surely not undertake yet another managerial gamble - one which could genuinely send the club into crisis on and off the pitch and actually decrease our survival chances if it's not an immediate success - unless he and those he confides in are convinced there is absolutely no alternative other than a desperate roll of the dice in order to preserve the Championship status Cotterill so triumphantly delivered to the club just months ago.

Such a scenario isn't even on the horizon, let alone imminent imo.

 

EXACTLY!

3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

If we beat Blackburn , end of story . If we lose again , SL.will i am 100% sure start to ask hard questions  and make subtle plans for a change .

If the wins don't come something has to be done differently .

Perhaps Cotts should stop thinking he manages Barcelona and set his team up to not get beaten first of all and then next season , hope we are still here and can push on with a squad suited to the rigours of the Championship .

Contingency is normally what its called. But SL will give SC until the last possible moment, particularly as it seems the 'transfer debacle' is difficult to lay at the door of SC but he is the one most suffering for it!....SC like most managers under a budget has to play to the strengths of the players he has, if that is 352 then so be it, but I certainly concerned that SC is being a little to loyal to some....But perhaps that is just me!

3 hours ago, cottsciderarmy said:

Possibly but I find it inexcusable that both Preston and MK Dons have improved past us and they didn't exactly batter the doors down in the transfer window.

This is worrying....Some players seem to have developed consistency problems and are not adapting well, but there is still time and there are options if the manager chooses to use them! 

[Phileas Fogg]

8 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

Sure I remember us winning a couple of trophies last season, something about a first league title in 60 years or something like that, I could be wrong though.

I think Woody's intended point is that the return on investment hasn't been that brilliant considering the amount put into the club during SL's time, especially when you consider the successes other clubs have had on a comparative shoestring. 

SL does seem to be beginning to change though, no big ageing marquee signings and more professionalism off the pitch in the way the club conducts itself.

[WTFiGO!?!]

4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think Woody's intended point is that the return on investment hasn't been that brilliant considering the amount put into the club during SL's time, especially when you consider the successes other clubs have had on a comparative shoestring. 

SL does seem to be beginning to change though, no big ageing marquee signings and more professionalism off the pitch in the way the club conducts itself.

SL is just an advocat of Churchill's "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm".

Fair play to 'im, I say!

[Robin1988]

7 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think Woody's intended point is that the return on investment hasn't been that brilliant considering the amount put into the club during SL's time, especially when you consider the successes other clubs have had on a comparative shoestring. 

SL does seem to be beginning to change though, no big ageing marquee signings and more professionalism off the pitch in the way the club conducts itself.

Over his tenure as a whole we haven't improved our league position a huge amount, but now's not really the time to say it - he's done what chairmen couldn't for decades beforehand and actually won us a league, and it was only 6 months ago!

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, Woodsy said:

Tell me how we are better off now then we were when SL bought us? Shiny new stadium, all ready for Colchester, aside - I don't see what we've achieved. New stadiums are lovely, of course, but a winning team is much better

He has not improved the playing side of the club at all. Lovely new stadium, training ground massively improved, we're still a pretty poor Div 2 team

Champions of League 1, JPT holders, no money worries, new pitch, new training facilities aside from the almost complete brand new stadium, which in turn is likely to yield a new railway station, a squad full of young players that are likely to yield a profit (struggling a little at the moment maybe), a higher profile for the club with higher TV revenues and conference facilities which will allow us to compete much better for players that don't really know anything about us and improve cash flow in a changing environment.

I am not sure what you are suggesting, but if you want Premier league football our chances are ten million times greater with SL behind it...As for his ownership, whilst you may think this pedantic he is the majority shareholder and my shares are stacked in behind him every time!

['Orns]

17 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

Sure I remember us winning a couple of trophies last season, something about a first league title in 60 years or something like that, I could be wrong though.

Great, so we're back to where we started then?

1 minute ago, Robin1988 said:

Over his tenure as a whole we haven't improved our league position a huge amount, but now's not really the time to say it - he's done what chairmen couldn't for decades beforehand and actually won us a league, and it was only 6 months ago!

We haven't improved our league position at all!

So, back to my original point - what has changed?

['Orns]

1 minute ago, REDOXO said:

Champions of League 1, JPT holders, no money worries, new pitch, new training facilities aside from the almost complete brand new stadium, which in turn is likely to yield a new railway station, a squad full of young players that are likely to yield a profit (struggling a little at the moment maybe), a higher profile for the club with higher TV revenues and conference facilities which will allow us to compete much better for players that don't really know anything about us and improve cash flow in a changing environment.

I am not sure what you are suggesting, but if you want Premier league football our chances are ten million times greater with SL behind it...As for his ownership, whilst you may think this pedantic he is the majority shareholder and my shares are stacked in behind him every time!

I hope to God we never play in the JPT ever again. I've seen us win that 3 times, it's not exactly something to shout about for a club with a billionaire owner, is it? Is that the sum of our ambitions?

I've mentioned the new ground and the much improved training facilities - but what has changed since SL took over? I'll say it again, we're still an averagely poor Div 2 team

[Sniper]

23 hours ago, ciderup said:

I never said it was anyone's fault ETR because I don't know what happened. All I was doing was post my thoughts, not looking to hang SC out to dry. Moaning in public was not a good move IMHO but that's just it, my opinion.

I don't pretend to know what our budget is, what players we tried to purchase or what wages we offered. All that was made public was that we offered Gray more than we had paid any other player. I don't see the need to apportion blame to anyone as I don't know the inner dealings of the club.

Maybe I'm missing your point?

I have to say I missed this and if true then it's very worrying to say the least. If players are now not all motivated by money, and actually look at the club in more detail, it's a big concern for us with being able to recruit some quality to establish us as a middle table Championship side.

[Phileas Fogg]

7 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

Over his tenure as a whole we haven't improved our league position a huge amount, but now's not really the time to say it - he's done what chairmen couldn't for decades beforehand and actually won us a league, and it was only 6 months ago!

I think if you said to him all those years ago the best we'd do is yo-yo between league 1 and championship and win the JPT once or twice (can't remember if the time before was under him!) he'd be disappointed.

There've been some great times, last season, promotion from league 1, the playoff season, some exciting seasons under Wilson; and some awful times too. Overall, footballing wise, I reckon he'd be disapponted at how we've progressed.

Now we're looking like we're beginning to get it right off the pitch, maybe we'll have more success. I really hope so and would be really pleased for SL if we do under him.

 

[CotswoldRed]

32 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Hey Cotswold....Might be up your way some time soon....! I pretty much refer you to Nogbad below

Great stuff - let us know what you're up to.  I still owe you a beer or two, I reckon We're at every home game, a few away games too.

[Robin1988]

27 minutes ago, Woodsy said:

So, back to my original point - what has changed?

We've won a league title for the first time in 60 years and are making our way gradually up the pyramid, hopefully. We've spent the majority of the last century yo-yoing between the second and third tier so that's not too bad for me.

We have been within a gnats whisker of the Premier League, ****** it up and ended up where we begun [not where we are now - not sure where you got that from], and now we're doing it again in a more gradual, sustainable way. It's not perfect but It's not exactly worthy of the derision it gets sometimes IMO.

Yes Swansea, yes Bournemouth, but they're exceptions, not the norm.

['Orns]

2 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

We've won a league title for the first time in 60 years and are making our way gradually up the pyramid, hopefully. We've spent the majority of the last century yo-yoing between the second and third tier so that's not too bad for me.

We have been within a gnats whisker of the Premier League, ****** it up and ended up where we begun [not where we are now - not sure where you got that from], and now we're doing it again in a more gradual, sustainable way. It's not perfect but It's not exactly worthy of the derision it gets sometimes IMO.

Yes Swansea, yes Bournemouth, but they're exceptions, not the norm.

Don't get me wrong, I think bottom half of Div 2 is where we probably belong, but I can't believe that SL sees that as progress from where we were when he took over, do you?

It's not derision, it's fact. I can't remember when SL took over, but we were either struggling in Div 2 or being a big fish in Div 3. At best he's got us to our average position, with the money spent I'd have expected a little more. What really got me was the complaints in the summer about how much players at Div 2 level cost. Really? I'm not sure how this can come as a shock to a successful business man. We'd only been out of that division for 2 years, ffs - it can't have changed that much? And this is the man who (allegedly) agreed to pay DJ £15k/wk, (allegedly) against the wishes of the manager at that time who thought the money could be spent more wisely elsewhere. The same manager who walked not long after, (allegedly) because of interference from above. Not the first manager to say that, and I doubt very much the last

Look, this thread doesn't need to be turned into a SL ass kissing / kicking thread, it's about SC. All I'm trying to point out is that SC can only do what he is allowed to do by the people signing the cheques, pointing the finger squarely at SC isn't the answer here. There are plenty of other areas in the club that need to get into line as well

[Ivorguy]

I agree that there are lots of areas of concern, as I have been consistently posting for months now.

First and perhaps foremost is the lack of coherent communication from the club - unlike last year. And Baker has left, why?

The manager isn't solely to blame but he isn't an innocent party - we don't know who is to blame for the summer fiasco but Fredericks left with no proper explanation, he took a goalie on loan and released him, Robinson is consigned to the u 21s.  He chooses our formation, oversees training (why can't someone be trained to take dead ball kicks), and decides on substitutions.

The coaching staff must share some blame - why is Fielding's distribution so poor (remember he once sat on the bench for England).

The Board must take blame for sending us into this season with insufficient numbers to fill a bench at one stage.  Amateur beyond belief.  The Board chose to offer at the 11th hour £8/9 million for a player (did they do so only because they knew he would never come - keep the fans happy)

The owner must take ultimate responsibility for the embarrassment of the club's amateurish failing approach.

In the old days it was often said by fans that The Board didn't want to succeed and were happy with level 3 and sometimes a failing level 2 situation.  I am beginning to wonder if those old boys were right - this is a club with limited ambition whatever they say.

Oh and by the way little mention now of the famous five pillar way to success.

[...]

Don't forget, Steve (C) said at the start of the season he wanted to win this division.

Why don't we judge him on this in May?

If we push Hull and Boro' into the play-offs, I think Steve will have done an amazing job.

 

Uncle TFR

[cidered abroad]

Ivor Guy has stated above that Baker has left. Got name wrong, Hamer, or have I missed something today?

[wallaceboy]

Sc deserves till at least Christmas. the next 4games are vitally important for him.3wins in 17games is just not good enough.We all know that. And there is no room for sentiment when it comes to our club.perhaps Brian McDermott could turn things around.I personally hope sc proves the doubters wrong.

[ciderup]

14 minutes ago, wallaceboy said:

Sc deserves till at least Christmas. the next 4games are vitally important for him.3wins in 17games is just not good enough.We all know that. And there is no room for sentiment when it comes to our club.perhaps Brian McDermott could turn things around.I personally hope sc proves the doubters wrong.

So do I Wallaceboy and I'm one of the doubters. I would take great pleasure from being proven to be wrong on this one!

[Ivorguy]

My reference was to communications and to Adam Baker

[Robin1988]

2 hours ago, Woodsy said:

Don't get me wrong, I think bottom half of Div 2 is where we probably belong, but I can't believe that SL sees that as progress from where we were when he took over, do you?

It's not derision, it's fact. I can't remember when SL took over, but we were either struggling in Div 2 or being a big fish in Div 3. At best he's got us to our average position, with the money spent I'd have expected a little more. What really got me was the complaints in the summer about how much players at Div 2 level cost. Really? I'm not sure how this can come as a shock to a successful business man. We'd only been out of that division for 2 years, ffs - it can't have changed that much? And this is the man who (allegedly) agreed to pay DJ £15k/wk, (allegedly) against the wishes of the manager at that time who thought the money could be spent more wisely elsewhere. The same manager who walked not long after, (allegedly) because of interference from above. Not the first manager to say that, and I doubt very much the last

Look, this thread doesn't need to be turned into a SL ass kissing / kicking thread, it's about SC. All I'm trying to point out is that SC can only do what he is allowed to do by the people signing the cheques, pointing the finger squarely at SC isn't the answer here. There are plenty of other areas in the club that need to get into line as well

No I doubt he is happy, but then I also doubt he's planning on walking away tomorrow so his work isn't finished yet. And yes, he did cock up in overpaying for players who weren't good enough at the time.

There are some chairman/owners who are in football with some expectation of a return, but SL is certainly not one of them; he has supported City, if anything, too far. And been too naive with the support he has given his managers. Personally those are the kind of traits I'm willing to forgive, but you can understand people's frustrations that we've not got it right first time.

I think we are getting it right second time, though. There has been a big change in the league since we left, it's definitely got a lot stronger. We've not strengthened enough, but we're edging forward without jeopardising the wage budget. Maybe we're going too slowly. I don't really know. But we're trying to do things properly at least.

You're right that pointing the finger at SC isn't the answer. I just don't think pointing the finger at anyone, particularly, is necessary at the moment. The club isn't in dire straits. We're consistently inconsistent and we need to strengthen, but we're outside the relegation zone and living within our means while we have a half-built stadium yet to attract any real revenue. We play largely entertaining football and we've got more gears to go through. Forgive me for not feeling too down about things.

Also @Ivorguy - Adam Baker still commentates for the radio as City's head of comms, does he not?

[Ivorguy]

If that's correct then I withdraw the reference but not the larger point of poor communication

[1960maaan]

Last time we came up, we over achieved. This led to a bit of over excitement in some (most) quarters and money was thrown at the project !

As it turned out a lot of poor judgement was used. I really believe if we had been mid table in the first year and had time to build steadily, we may have ended up in a far healthier position. Less debt (for Steve to write off,even though he caused it), we would have been able to compete better with wages and may have been pushing for the Prem for longer.

This season just needs to be consolidation and building, of course a lot depends on staying up, but steady progression is the only way we will have any relative success in this division. 

Whether SC is the man for the next period, who knows , but I think December will tell a tale.

[Jesus]

SC should be under pressure, why shouldn't he be?  We're almost halfway through the season and we're struggling.  Anyone who thinks that we aren't in a relegation battle has firmly got their heads in the sand.  The issue isn't that we're losing games, it is the manner in which it's happening.  I said from game 8 that we were in trouble, it was so glaringly obvious.  The problem that I've got with SC this season is the arrogance of the man and his reluctance to change.  The 3-5-2 formation that SC keeps persisting with is plain crazy.

#JesusLovesYou

['Orns]

1 hour ago, Robin1988 said:

No I doubt he is happy, but then I also doubt he's planning on walking away tomorrow so his work isn't finished yet. And yes, he did cock up in overpaying for players who weren't good enough at the time.

There are some chairman/owners who are in football with some expectation of a return, but SL is certainly not one of them; he has supported City, if anything, too far. And been too naive with the support he has given his managers. Personally those are the kind of traits I'm willing to forgive, but you can understand people's frustrations that we've not got it right first time.

I think we are getting it right second time, though. There has been a big change in the league since we left, it's definitely got a lot stronger. We've not strengthened enough, but we're edging forward without jeopardising the wage budget. Maybe we're going too slowly. I don't really know. But we're trying to do things properly at least.

You're right that pointing the finger at SC isn't the answer. I just don't think pointing the finger at anyone, particularly, is necessary at the moment. The club isn't in dire straits. We're consistently inconsistent and we need to strengthen, but we're outside the relegation zone and living within our means while we have a half-built stadium yet to attract any real revenue. We play largely entertaining football and we've got more gears to go through. Forgive me for not feeling too down about things.

Also @Ivorguy - Adam Baker still commentates for the radio as City's head of comms, does he not?

Ha, don't forgive you for that mate! SC gets a bit of stick, that comes with the territory I guess - I just want to stick up for the bloke! I'm not a massive fan of a few things that have gone on in the mast few years, for me the buck stops with SL. A successful businessman he most definitely is, but a successful football man he most definitely isn't. I don't have any great hope JL will do much better either. Needs to let it go and leave it to the professionals, I would imagine that's difficult when it's hour money they are playing with

[BS4 on Tour...]

2 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

My reference was to communications and to Adam Baker

Has he left? He's still on the 'contact' section of the website http://www.bcfc.co.uk/club/contact_us/