Robin badge

[WTMS]

34 minutes ago, Selred said:

Before this thread I never realised Rovers used the coat of arms as a badge, when was this? 

I bet only a very small minority knew this and therefore I reckon you're only using the Gas reference for your own agenda, I highly doubt anyone know knows football would link it with Rovers.

At the end of the day it's only a badge, and it's in fact our name that links us more with Rovers, this is proven by us constantly being called Bristol. 

An agenda? Yes. Ernie/the Angry Robin evolved for a few reasons, a fun a attempt to do something that was unmistakably not associated with BRFC. . 

 

 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

6 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

A very short and to the point answer from NickJ.

Anybody else have any idea what this photograph is all about?

Think it was the overflow from the 80,000 sags at Wembley . the Met rounded them up to save the horses

[Red-Robbo]

10 minutes ago, Nomad said:

Doesn't make him one of our own though.

No. And when you read more of the history, you realise that it was native Bristolian seafarers - along with Basque fishermen - who actually landed first in both Americal and Canadal  (as my gramps would have said). They realised what great fishing there was off the Grand Banks and kept it quiet to themselves until Cabote blabbed about the whole thing!

Tis true that!

(OK Pedants. I know the Vikings got there first, but they forgot about it after a century or so)

[handsofclay]

Advocates for maintaining the current badge should also explain why they are proud to sport a badge that doesn't even have our correct formation date displayed. It totally neglects Bristol South End who changed their name to Bristol City in 1897. It was exactly the same club and played at the same ground with the same directors and supporters etc. Indeed, a bigger transition occurred in 1982 when a change of name happened, but that isn't displayed.

The Suspension Bridge is synonymous with Bristol throughout the world. The ship, castle and unicorns aren't even synonymous with Bristol to most Bristolians! Add the robin and a football and it says it all. It's a total red herring moaning that a few other clubs are known as the robins too, as Brunel didn't adorn their cities or towns with a world famous suspension bridge! So where does the confusion exist?

[RedRaw]

1 hour ago, Woodsy said:

 One look at the R*vers badge and I'm sure someone in Braintree, or Welling, for example, would know who it is

Well, they would know as they played them last season in non-league with well over 10,000 'pirates' descending into their towns, attacking players and horses alike  

[Barrs Court Red]

Crest for me, though I'm old enough to remember the Robin and wouldn't be upset if it came back.

[Rob k]

16 minutes ago, handsofclay1909 said:

Advocates for maintaining the current badge should also explain why they are proud to sport a badge that doesn't even have our correct formation date displayed. It totally neglects Bristol South End who changed their name to Bristol City in 1897. It was exactly the same club and played at the same ground with the same directors and supporters etc. Indeed, a bigger transition occurred in 1982 when a change of name happened, but that isn't displayed.

The Suspension Bridge is synonymous with Bristol throughout the world. The ship, castle and unicorns aren't even synonymous with Bristol to most Bristolians! Add the robin and a football and it says it all. It's a total red herring moaning that a few other clubs are known as the robins too, as Brunel didn't adorn their cities or towns with a world famous suspension bridge! So where does the confusion exist?

Have you ever heard anyone to refer to us as the Robins? Ie were playing the Robins tomorrow?

[Aizoon]

2 hours ago, Rob k said:

Every year there seems to be something about changing the badge back to the Robin

And will be until we achieve our objective, National bird today -  BCFC logo tomorrow!

And I don't need to remind you of  Britain's favourite animal, do I?

['Orns]

8 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Have you ever heard anyone to refer to us as the Robins? Ie were playing the Robins tomorrow?

I've never heard anyone say they are playing Generic City tomorrow either!

Doesn't matter if anyone else knows us as the Robins, we all know the connection

[Sixtyseconds]

Have you ever heard anyone to refer to us as the Robins?

That will be a Yes,.

Have you ever heard anyone to refer we're playing the two Ponies prancing over a Ship and Castle?.

Hopefully I am not fibbing but no.

[Rob k]

1 minute ago, Woodsy said:

I've never heard anyone say they are playing Generic City tomorrow either!

Doesn't matter if anyone else knows us as the Robins, we all know the connection

I don't know ofthe connection of a Robin to Bristol City, other than its our nickname - I presume it's because we play in Red? 

Also wouldnt the generic bit be 'city'? 

[handsofclay]

18 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Have you ever heard anyone to refer to us as the Robins? Ie were playing the Robins tomorrow?

Yes, I have actually. And it used to occur a lot more when we had a robin on our badge!

[Robin1988]

40 minutes ago, handsofclay1909 said:

Advocates for maintaining the current badge should also explain why they are proud to sport a badge that doesn't even have our correct formation date displayed.

Can't say I have, or that it bothers me in the slightest tbh.

[cider head]

To be fair the crest is just the unicorns and funny smake helmet thing? the middle bit with the ship and castle what known as the Bristol badge or seal and these two were merged so it's not that original and back in the day people were not very happy about it.

 

Bristol's Seals, Arms and Logos

Seals were introduced as a way of authenticating documents. A blob of soft sealing wax was melted and the seal, often in the form of a signet ring, pressed into it. Seals have been in use for a long time and there is a mention of them being misused in the Bible's Old Testament, 1 Kings 21:8 in King James version says...

So she [Jezebel] wrote letters in Ahab's name, and sealed them with his seal, and sent the letters unto the elders and to the nobles that were in his city, dwelling with Naboth. The first known seal used by the City of Bristol was issued early in the reign of King Edward I who reigned from 1272 to 1307.

 

This seal has two halves that were aligned using the lugs seen on the above image. It was used not only on official city of Bristol documents but was used by city burgesses whose seals were not sufficiently well-known. A burgess was originally any freeman of a particular borough but was later redefined as any city official either elected or not.

 

One side of the seal shows the castle, which was built between 1130 and 1150, including the great keep on which a watchman stands with a trumpet. The reverse shows a ship approaching the castle watergate along the Avon which teems with fish and eels. Ships at that time were steered using a broad board over the side of the ship and not with a rudder at the stern. A watchman points out the entrance to the watergate.

 

The text on this side of the seal reads "Secreti clavis sum portus. Navita navis Portam custodit. Portum vigil indice prodit." A translation of this is "I am the key of the hidden port. The sailor watches the port side of the ship. The watchman points out the port with his finger", an alternative translation is "I am the key of the secret port. The pilot steers the helm of the ship. The warder points out the port with his fore-finger."

 

This seal is the only one that I have seen where the ship is entering the castle watergate, all seals after this show the ship leaving the watergate. This seal was in use until 1569 when Bristol was granted a crest with supporters - the golden unicorns - for the civic arms.

 

There was another seal apparently also issued in the reign of Edward I and that now shows the ship leaving the castle...

 

City seal from the the reign of Edward I

Image from "Bristol Past and Present" by James Fawckner Nicholls and John Taylor, published by J. W. Arrowsmith, 1881

The text reads "Sigillum Maioritatis Ville Bristolie."

 

Another seal was issued during the reign of Edward III in 1359...

Second mayoral seal - 1359

Image from "Civic Treasures of Bristol" by Mary E. Williams, published by City of Bristol, 1984

This seal replaced an earlier seal that was produced earlier in Edward III's reign. What happened was that Edward had assumed the title of "King of France" in 1340 and the old seal did not acknowledge this fact in the Royal Standard shown on it. The seal above shows a ship departing from the castle's watergate. The Royal Standard flying from the bow of the ship shows the arms of both England and France. Standing on the castle ramparts are two watchmen. The one on top of the castle has a trumpet and is standing with a signal beacon and a flag bearing a fleur-de-lis. The on on the right in one of the turrets simple has a trumpet. This seal was also in use, usually countersigned by the mayor's personal seal, until the 16th century.

 

James Fawckner Nicholls and John Taylor in "Bristol Past and Present" describe another seal that was in use during the reign of Henry VIII (reigned from 1509 to 1547). They say that this seal shows a castle with two warders on separate towers, both blowing trumpets. The bow of a ship is seen leaving the watergate flying a Royal Standard that shows the arms of England and France with the number fleur-de-lis in the first quarter reduced to three, a change that took place in the reign of Henry V, who was King of England from 1413 to 1422.

 

Whilst searching online for information for these pages I came across the website at Florida Educational Technology Clearinghouse which shows another version of the city seal...

 

City of Bristol seal

Arms of the City of Bristol
From left to right these date from the 14th, 16th and 17th centuries
Image from "John Cabot" by Marquis of Dufferin and Ava, published in Scribner's Magazine, Vol XXII, 1897

 

Crest and Supporters

The biggest change to Bristol's arms came on 20th August, 1569 when Bristol was granted the right add supporters, the golden unicorns, and a crest, the arms rising through the clouds holding a serpent and scales it's arms. John Latimer in "Sixteenth Century Bristol" explains how this came about.

In 1558, Queen Elizabeth I ascended the throne. Until then the annual muster of the "trained bands" had been largely ignored by Bristol, as well as most other cities. The governement started to insist that the annual muster of trained, armed men should take place and in 1561, some rusty old armour was found and dusted off. Twenty men were sent off with a quantity of gunpowder to the Gloucestershire muster with 6s 8d each for their trouble. They were not a success and their inclusion in the muster was regarded as derogatory.

The city chamberlain was dispatched to London to plead for a reaffirmation of the city's rights and privileges which was granted. A little "grease" to oil the wheels of beaurocracy had to be applied though. For example, the Earl of Pembroke who was Lord High Steward of Bristol received a butt of sack - that is, 108 gallons of sweet wine, for his inconvenience. Amongst other things, the privileges meant that Bristol would now carry out its own annual musters.

 

To add splendor to the muster, Latimer tells us that "12 ells of sarsanet, red, blue and yellow was purchased in London for £5 3s to make an ensign for the troops which was decorated with two buttons of gold and tassells. Sarsanet was a type of silk first imported by the Crusaders. An ell was a measure of cloth. 1 ell = 20 nails = 5 quarters (of the yard) = 45 inches. Also purchased were two drums to provide the marching beat.

 

The next year the muster was carried out on the Marsh in Bristol where men with new uniforms were gathered. Payment of the troops cost the city £4 16s 8d. It was at this muster where feelings began to arise that what Bristol really needed was a crest and supporters to for its arms - just like London had theirs. The new crest and supporters cost Bristol £7, and once that was granted, a further £4 for a new seal engraved by goldsmith Giles Unyt.

 

By 1570, the city could muster 160 men with new uniforms, equipment and guns with enough for 20 more stored in the Guildhall. The uniforms cost the city another £65 and consisted of cassocks with laced sleeves, breeches and iron corslets. This was quite a sizable force for a city of 6,000 inhabitants as Bristol then was.

 

John Evans in his 1824 book "A Chronological Outline of the History of Bristol and the Stranger's Guide" describes the letter of patent...

 

By a patent of "Robert Cooke esq, alias Clariencieux, principall and kinge of armes of the southe easte and weste partes of this realme of England from the river of Trente southewardes," the arms of the City of Bristol are declared to be "gules on a mount vert, issuant out of a castle silver upon wave, a ship golde;" and the crest and supporters now granted, "upon the heaulme in a wreathe golde and gules; issuant out of the cloudes two armes in saltour charnew, in the one hand a serpent vert, in the other a pair of balance gold; supported with two unicornes seant gold mained, horned; and clayed sables mantled gules dowbled silver." The motto, "Virtute et industria."

 

The full text of this letter of patent is in both "Proceedings of the Clifton Antiquarian Club for 1904 - 1908" and John Latimer's "Sixteenth Century Bristol"

 

To ALL AND SINGULAR AS WELL NOBLES AND GENTLEMEN and others to whom these presents shall come Robert Cooke esquire alias Clarencieux, Principall Heraulte and kinge of armes of the southe easte and weste partes of this realme of England from the river of trent southwardes sendithe humble comendacons and greeting FORASMOCHAS aunciently from the begining the valiaunt and vertuous actes of worthi persons have ben comended to the worlde with sondry monumets and remembrances of their good deserts, emongst the which the chiefest and most usuall hathe ben the bearing of signes in shildes caled armes which are evident demonstracons of prowes diversly distributed accordinge to the qualities and deserts of the persons meretinge the same to the end that suche as have done comendable service to their prince or country eyther in warre or peace may both receave due honor in their lives and also derive the same successively to their posteretie after them.

 

AND WHEREAS THIS CITIE OF BRISTOLL hath of long time ben incorporate by the name of mayor and comonalty as by the moste noble prince of famouse memory Kinge Edward the third and laitely confirmed by the Quenes Majestie that now is by the name and names as is aforesaid by virtue of which corporation and sithens the first grant thereof there hathe ben auncient armes incident unto the said mayor and comonaltie that is to saye, gules, on a mount vert issuant out of a castle silver, uppon wave a ship golde, YET NOT UPSTANDING, UPPON divers consideratons they have required me the said Clarencieux kinge of armes to grant to their auncient armes a creaste, withe supportars due and lawfull to be borne, WHEREUPPON, CONSIDERING their worthines and knowenge their request to be reasonable, I have by vertue of my office of Clarencieux kinge of armes confirmed given and granted unto John Stone now mayor, John Hipsley recordar, David Harris, Willm Pepwell, Robert Sayer, Roger Jones and Willm Lawe, Aldermen, Thomas Crickland and Richard Yonge sherives, Robert Halton chamberlayn and Richard Willimot towneclarke, and to their successors in lief office, this Creaste and supportars herafter followenge that is to say, uppon the heaulme on a wreathe golde and gules, issuant out of the clowdes, two armes in saltour charnew in the one hand a serpent vert, in the other a pair of balance gold, supported with two unicorns seant gold mayned horned clayed sables mantled gules doubled silver as more playnely aperth depicted in the margent, To HAVE and HOLDE THE SAID armes creaste and supportars to the said mayor and comonalty and to their successors, and they it to use beare and shew for ever more without impediment let or interuption of any persons or persons, In Witness whereof I have subscribed my hande and set hereunto the seale of my office the fower and twentithe day of August in the yere of our Lorde God A thousand five hondrethe thre score and nyne, and in the eleventh yere of the reigne of our sovereigne lady Elizebethe, by the grace of God Quene of England France and Irelande, Defendor of the Faithe, et cet "Robert Cooke Alias Clarencieux" "Roy D'armes."

 

Notice that the full version does not mention the city's motto "Virtute et industria." The article in "Proceedings of the Clifton Antiquarian Club for 1904 - 1908" also gives an illustration of the city of Bristol arms...

City of Bristol arms
Image from "Proceedings of the Clifton Antiquarian Club for 1904 - 1908"

Symbolism

The various elements that make up the arms mean something. The oldest part, the ship and castle, are pretty obvious.. other elements not so much. The unicorns will only do homage to men of virtue, hence the unicorns are seant (seated) rather than rampant (rearing up on their hind legs). The arms in the crest signify that good government depends on wisdom (the serpent) and justice (the scales) and that these are divine gifts from above - which is why the arms are rising out of a cloud.

 

I've not found an explanation, or even a hint, of why the crest includes a helm. A search of internet heraldry websites does give a rough idea though. When included on arms the helm is placed above the shield and supports the crest. It does not always signify any particular achievement in armed conflict but the style does depend on the social rank of the bearer. Open helms were reserved for the nobility whilst closed helms, like that on the city's arms, were used for the commonality.

Two slightly different version of Bristol's arms

 

The Motto

 

Although the text in John Evans' 1824 book "A Chronological Outline of the History of Bristol and the Stranger's Guide" gives the impression that the motto was introduced at the same time as the crest and supporters, the full text of the letter of patent by Robert Cooke Alias Clarencieux makes no mention of it. Mary Williams, the City Archivist, in her 1984 book, "Civic Treasures of Bristol", says that...

 

"It is not known when Bristol first began to incorporate the motto "Virtute et Industria" (by Virtue and Industry), but this was possibly in the early eighteenth century."

 

Errors of Depiction

Alderman W. R. Barker J.P. (Justice of the Peace - a magistrate) made a study of the various forms of the arms and lamented on January 17th, 1908, as reported in "Proceedings of the Clifton Antiquarian Club for 1904 - 1908", the lack of conformity when reproducing the City of Bristol arms. He said "I might go so far as to say that every engraver and die-sinker, every printer and stationer, in dealing with our much-displayed city arms has put forward what has been most ready to hand, or what has appeared to make the prettiest picture, as the correct thing.

 

There are several common errors which can sometimes be seen. One is that instead of issuing from the castle's watergate the ship is sometimes seen passing in front of the castle, or in Alderman Barker's words "creeping round from behind the castle". Sometimes the unicorns are seen rampant (rearing on their hind legs) instead of sitting on their haunches or even one or both replaced by lions. Alderman Barker also decried the use of the city's arms being unofficially used by various organizations and businesses, especially when they made changes to the design.

 

Of course, some people are not happy with the addition of the crest and supporters at all. James Fawckner Nicholls and John Taylor in their 1881 book, "Bristol Past and Present" say...

I cannot conclude this paper without expressing my regret that such a crest should have been assigned by any king of arms to such a grand old coat as that which has for six centuries distinguished the city of Bristol. The unicorns, but for their unpicturesque attitude, might be accepted, though not in the least applicable to the city; but the crest is designed in the very worst style of heraldic composition.

 

They then illustrate the article with a version of the arms that Alderman Barker would not have liked at all as it shows the ship "creeping round from behind the castle"...

 

Image from "Bristol Past and Present" by James Fawckner Nicholls and John Taylor, published by J. W. Arrowsmith, 1881

Badge

 

As well as the seal and arms Bristol has a badge. Over the years many organizations and businesses have wanted to use all or portions of the arms as their logo or in advertising. The arms are properly reserved for the use of the city council but on 16th February, 1983, Bristol was granted the use of a badge for use by organizations other than the city council

 

 

City of Bristol badge

Image from "Civic Treasures of Bristol" by Mary E. Williams, published by City of Bristol, 1984

The badge symbolizes Bristol's maritime heritage and depicts the ship and castle surrounded by a rope. The fleur-de-lis represent the points of the compass and Bristol sailor's role in exploration.

 

Logo

Almost every department of the city council has its own logo as do organizations funded or sponsored by it. The main city council logo is a representation of the original seal of the city of Bristol...

 

 

Bristol City Council logo

There were other logos produced for special occasions or campaigns. One of the best was produced for the Bristol 600 celebrations in 1973 when Bristol celebrated it's 600th year of being a county in its own right...

 

 

Bristol 600 logo

Image from Bristol Evening Post, Bristol 600 souvenir program, 1973 This logo shows the supersonic airliner Concorde overflying a sailing ship. Concorde entered service in 1976 and was retired in 2003 - a remarkable length of time for a single type of civil aircraft.

 

[Red-Robbo]

Blimey.  I can't read all that @cider head

One thing strikes me though.

The Bristol seals. That'll probably be the name of Lansdown's new water polo team!

[cider head]

Bristol City is a west country club.

People travel the four corners of the west country (and some beyond) to the South Bristol church which is Ashton gate and not connecting with Bristol of eastville, horefield (pirate territory) where the Bristol badge is connected as much as the whole of Bristol? We need our own

ID and emblem, BRISTOL CITY PRIDE OFTHE WEST

Football = what we do

Robin = westcountry & cider (involving wassail and we sing enough cider songs along with a cider sponsor)

Clifton bridge = south Bristol

Together = the perfect badge

Robin = westcountry & cider connection wassail

It was also believed, especially in the West Country, that the spirits of the trees were incarnated in robins and other small birds.

Young lads representing these birds climbed the apple trees and cried 'Tit-tit, I want more to eat.' A piece of cake, cheese or bread was either handed up to him or dipped in cider and placed in the forks of the tree branches 'for the robins'.

There are three forms of Christmas/New Year celebration involving wassail, a beverage originally made of mulled ale, curdled cream, roasted apples, nuts, eggs and spices.

The blowing of horns heralds the Wassailing of the Apple Trees celebration, as a beverage, usually cider,

is poured on the roots of the finest tree and a wassail cake placed in the branches as an offering to the tree spirits and elementals who ensure fruitful harvest. Then the beating of kettles and firing of guns loaded with powder are used to drive away the witches and ghosts believed to reside in the crown of the apple tree. This is followed by a wassailing song sung to the tree (or the hive in the tree, in the case of bees!) as in --

Wassail, wassail all round the town;

The zider-cup's white and the zider's brown;

Our zider is made vrom good apple trees,

And now my vine vellows we'll drink if you please.

http://www.timetravel-britain.com/articles/christmas/wassail.shtml

The robin was first used in 1949 on the shirts but it was a very different design (it is not just a 1970's thing)

I feel we should have our oven badge and ID to Bristol city not just Bristol as a whole ie: the gas, glous cricket, the council etc.

The rovers using the pirate is a part of Bristols history (read up on it) but in itself represents them alone and a few schools call themselfs Bristol ie: Bristol grammar school, but have their own emblem, badge and rovers dumped the crest years ago for this reason that they are Bristol but not South Bristol.

And that is the deep root point here as they have their own badge/emblem identity which represents them in side their club as opposed to a Bristol crest used by every tom, dick and harry, the Badge of Bristol, which is Bristol as a whole, does not represent them by geography as of Ashton or Bedminster which is where Bristol city fc represent, ok you may not feel it is a robin to your taste but we should go the way the gas or pirates have gone and have our own Badge and identity but still be Bristol city.

Do the club have a motto? most traditional organisations do.

It is interesting the nickname, i like the robins and the robin badge, i like scrumpy our mascot and i didn't get the point when city had a cat? however what would fans consider being called? just city? i don't think this is a modern americanisation of clubs as nicknames have been around for a very, very long time in football but i read a few posts saying i don't like the robins without very little alternative? the robin was a nickname given to us years back by the press and locals who for the basic reason we play in red '''robin red breast'''....

Ah! We were called the Bristol babe i hear some say!! the Bristol babe thing, is that Bedminster fc or Bristol south end? that was about on the clubs merger moving in to the football league as we were new, reading some city history books it was quoted the club and players didn't like it.

Have a read up, the robin has been around in some form and used for a long time (even if no badge appeared on the shirts)looking at a picture in 1957- 58 a chap looking like dads army with a robin on the end of a stick pointing it at the rovers mascot ''a pirate''.

We are the robins everyone else does not matter. Now the supporters trust to other fan groups are proud to use the robin rather than a crest, we have a robin mascot not a unicorn or a ship, the press still refer to us as ''the robins''.

The crest (bristol coat of arms) was a re-brand and meger with in itself back in the day with ship and castle (coat of arms) and crest supporters (unicorns) putting the two together so it's not as traditional as people like to make out.

The arms are based on the early seals of Bristol, from which the ship and castle theme (signifying a strongly fortified harbour) developed (part of that is slavery). The shield was in use from about the 14th century, and to this was added in 1569 supporters (the two unicorns) and the crest (two arms rising from the clouds holding scales and a serpent). The significance of these various items is recorded in the City Audit Books of this time:- the Unicorns will only do homage to men of virtue; the arms in the crest signify that good government depends on wisdom (the serpent) and justice (the scales) and that these are divine gifts from above.

In the 1949-50 season the first robin badge was on the shirts of Bristol city, so the year 1949 the supporters club was formed the supporters club would have been around a robin badge. The picture shows this actual badge design of that time

Bristol city's Alec Eisentrager in 1949 wore the first ever version of the robin badge on theshirts, again not a 1970's thing.

The Robin, mascott and crowd announcer is nothing new and nothing to do with America,

Bristol city vs Bristol rovers 1957/58 FA cup tie, in this picture the city mascot was known as ''Ashton Alf''

 

 

The crowd holding up a banner ''up the robins'' this being 1935 the fans showing interest in the robin

 

[handsofclay]

18 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

Can't say I have, or that it bother me in the slightest tbh.

Perhaps it should. Had the founders of our club not had the idea to form a club in South Bristol in 1894 and put a lot of time, effort and finances inTo it then you wouldnt have had Bristol City to watch over all these years! But, if you don't think that Is worth dishing out any credit for, then fair play.

[cider head]

Had all this on other threads

The Robin is undoubtedly a icon of Britain featuring on Christmas cards but from 1976 for nearly two decades was along with the Suspension bridge the emblem of Bristol City fc. This period was without doubt the most successful but also turbulent in the clubs history. For a time during this period it seemed City had established themselves in the first division before becoming the first ever team to suffer three successive relegations and occupying bottom spot of the fourth division by early 82.

In the mid nineties the decision was taken to change the clubs emblem back to a crest. Now some ten years and more on this move has still yet to really catch the imagination of fans or even become an instantly identifiable image associated with Bristol City fc. Ask most fans of other fans what is the nickname of Bristol City fc? Instantly it's the Robins. Ask what features on the club badge and the answer is the Robin and Suspension bridge not the crest of Bristol! Even the media constantly use the Robin and Suspension bridge seemingly in the mistaken belief it really is Citys current badge.

There's something unlovable about the Crest. Its not really ours, Bristol City have no greater claim on it than anybody else and parts of the design have indeed been used by the noxious Gas in the past, the egg chasing lot up Gloucester road, the Bristol Car company and part currently looks suspiciously like the anti sport lesbian loving tofu eating councils image. The Gas have as much claim to this badge as we do and we do not need a symbol that represents all of Bristol including Easton, Eastville, Fishponds and Horfield.

In the Robin and Suspension bridge we have the perfect emblem of our club. Here with its Suspension bridge is a celebration of a marvel of architecture which nobody else can lay claim to. Couple this with the Robin a Spirited fierce fighter, willing to battle with rival birds to the death to defend its territory and we have something to be proud of.

This robin works, its simple, instantly recognisable with a perfect balance of red , white and black catching the onlookers attention and remaining in the memory. The Crest simply does not work in the same manner, its fussy, unoriginal, forever tainted with its association with others and the terrible and the repellent stigma pictured .

All supporters groups (including the supporters club & trust) bare a robin in some form, the club has the nick name the robins and has a mascott of a robin but use the bristol crest that has no personal identity, we feel it's time for the robins return.

Article a few years back..

The red red robin, finally, has died - or so it would seem. On 22nd August 1994 Bristol city football club announced that the Robin would be removed from all club stationary and memorabilia and replaced with the so called more popular city of Bristol emblem. Such a replacement would end an on off association of over 70 years between the red-breasted one and the red-shirted ones but, evidently, there are those who disagree with the decision to this day.

 

Back in 1994 on the way to the Northampton game the City Away Travel Service launched a petition in an attempt to keep the well-known emblem and it appeared that those making the journey were quite prepared to sign it. Back then we signed it but, like many others, have reservations about the fate of the bird and it's continued association with City.

 

Ther club's claim in 1994 was that the Robin/Suspension Bridge/Football emblem looks like an amateur club's attempt at a logo from the mid-70's. Such a design is no way to present the clubs official documents - the city of Bristol emblem was said to be much more appropriate; it is geographically specific and so say more professional than the old combination od bird, bridge and ball.

 

It is also fair to state that the Robin is not unique to Bristol. Talk of the 'Robins' can relate equally to Swindon, Wrexham, Cheltenham or even Charlton which was seen by the club as a reason further to support it's continuation: some of the most popular club nicknames are those which relate to the historical occupations of the fans - Luton will always be the 'Hatters,' Rotherham the 'merry Millers,' and Crewe Alexandra the Railwaymen.' Whilst We accept that City could never be the ''Faggers,' 'Smokers' or 'Tobacconists,' from obvious links with the now destroyed factory, there is also the docking history of the area to consider. It seems some people think that the 'Robins' simply comes about as a result of the red shirts which we wear'', and hardly the most original of sources some would think and really just a more innovative form of the 'Reds' or Blues' which so many clubs still use, however 'not only does the robin come from Bristol city wearing red, it also ties in to our westcounty & cider history as for generations people have carred out the tradintion of Wassail! The villagers form a circle around the largest apple tree, hang pieces of toast soaked in cider in the branches for the robins, who represent the 'good spirits' of the tree. A shotgun is fired overhead to scare away evil spirits and the group sings, cider and robins with Bristol city go hand in hand.

 

In despite of this argument the Robin obviously has a distguished history and many seem to dislike the fact from 1997 to this day will have lost or lose it in this sense, many fans have been trying to get the robin back since 1994 up to 2011 and other forms of the Robin including the Eastend fans Robin ''fondly known as ernie'' which unofficially are keeping the Robin history alive, one for the Bistol city contains ''Down at Ashton gate there is Alan dicks

and the red, red robin to'' this tune reproduced when gary johnson was manager.

 

Oddly enough since the Robin was no longer officially the clubs' emblem it appears to have preserved it as a nickname and has a mascot ''Robin'' parading around the pitch on match days which ''Scrumpy'' has its merchandise sold in the club shop!. If there is no link between City and The Robin other than the colour red which the two share, it would ludicrous to maintain the link? would it not??? - it is the use of the Robin in the emblem, and this only, that sets us apart from Swindon or Wrexham. As fans we need identity and this is one of the strongest arguments for a return of the Robin as from 1994 our nickname and the Bristol emblem has been irrelevant to Brisol City Football Club, lets bare in mind the Bristol City supporters trust bare a Robin as it's own emblem/logo.

 

The historical connotations are also important. It is well known that the Robin has been accociated with Bristol City for well over 70 years and was well supported by a number of former players and club associates. Indeed, Donnie Gilles said that he was disgusted by the decision to part with the Robin emblem, recently David james (keen artist) suggested on twitter that the crest was too fussy and a robin would be better for kids to be involved with to draw.

 

The say progress must continually be made and occasionally it goes against popular opinion - removing the Robin was just as much a commercial decision as changing the colour of the away kit is; the club is not trying to be vindictive towards fans by replacing the Robin, they were simply making a decision which they believed will be beneficial to Bristol City in the long term (which from 1994 to 2011 is questionable considering the amount of fans wanting the Robins return) We do not want to see the history of our club eroded.

 

There are said to be three other points that so say favour the club's decision in 1994; When the Robin was replaced on the strip by the Bristol emblem an Evening post poll showed the majority of fans in favour of change; (although evening post polls like other polls can be used as great fun for rival fans). Secondly, when was the last time that the accompanying song was sung by all corners of of the ground as Drink Up Thy Cider now is??? (mind you these days it is a struggle to get all corners of of the ground singing in union if at all) we do though seem happier singing about our drinking habbits than our flying/bobbing habbits and, what's more, without the Robin the Gas will be entirely without any vaguely original songs; there will be no more shooting of the illegitimate bird; thirdly, the Robin, to many suggests weakness (those that are at least no nothing about birds) - it's so say a really little bird that ends up getting eaten by bigger birds or cats; a club like Crystal Palace have adopted a so called dominent, powerful bird in the eagle as their club mascot/emblem type of thing. So say the Robin is the root of endless jibes and jokes, so should it be a problem not to bring the Robin back?...

 

As it is fairly obvious that those at robinback.co.uk are in favour of bringing the Robin back, officially, to Bristol City FC. As The Robin will always be associated with Bristol City (we have a robin mascot and nick name) and i think that changing the clubs nick name is highly unlikely - there will always be that association. Therefore we would suggest a return of the Robin or at least some form of comromise, courses of action could be a re-designed, modern, professional Robin logo/emblem that represents Bristol City and the clubs nick name, this would appease the long suffering supporters of the Robin. Ok there are people who have Bristol emblem tattoo's the club could still keep the crest on the shorts for them but when did the club spare a thought for the many fans who have Robin tattoo's??? memorabilia should not be a problem for the club shop to stock both? for choice?? the choice the many Robin fans do not have.

 

[NickJ]

35 minutes ago, Rob k said:

I don't know ofthe connection of a Robin to Bristol City, other than its our nickname - I presume it's because we play in Red? 

Also wouldnt the generic bit be 'city'? 

From what I gather City fans started to refer to us as "the Robins" from around 1926 when the song ‘When the red, red, robin goes bob, bob, bobbing along’, was released. The fact that we played in red shirts and white shorts probably seemed to fit and makes sense reference to Cider Heads fantastic 1935 photo showing the "Up the Robins" banner.

So we have been known as the Robins for almost 100 years, the Robin first appeared on the shirt almost 70 years ago, the red robin bobbing along song was played at home games from as far back as I can remember back to at least the early 70's.

The coat of arms on the other hand has played virtually no part in the history of Bristol City fans other than being worn on the shirt in the 1909 cup final and in the 60's and from around the 90's onwards.

The robin has not appeared on the shirt for 20 years and yet many fans associate the Robin with City - that's not just nostalgia by older fans, witness the angry robin which many younger and older fans alike have adopted.

If the coat of arms was taken away from the shirt I don't think anyone would be too bothered because there appears little affection for it as being part of our identity.

Whereas the robin clearly means a lot to many.

On that basis the argument for the robin is very persuasive.

[Robin1988]

34 minutes ago, NickJ said:

If the coat of arms was taken away from the shirt I don't think anyone would be too bothered because there appears little affection for it as being part of our identity.

This appears to be another glaring assumption in the debate; both robin and crest lovers assume no one really cares about the other one. I'd guess people are generally fairly warm towards both, but I'd love to see you back up what you've said with any kind of evidence beyond the circles you mix with.

53 minutes ago, handsofclay1909 said:

Perhaps it should. Had the founders of our club not had the idea to form a club in South Bristol in 1894 and put a lot of time, effort and finances inTo it then you wouldnt have had Bristol City to watch over all these years! But, if you don't think that Is worth dishing out any credit for, then fair play.

Putting words in people's mouths is a much underrated form of debate, well done.

['Orns]

1 hour ago, Rob k said:

I don't know ofthe connection of a Robin to Bristol City, other than its our nickname - I presume it's because we play in Red? 

Also wouldnt the generic bit be 'city'? 

Red is the only connection I can think of too!

Fair comment on the generic part!

[Offside]

I've always preferred the coat of arms (although the design on the badge could be better), but it would be good if the robin could be incorporated somewhere.

[REDOXO]

Despite being one of the many/few who remembers footy in the 60's/70's and saw us throughout the period home and away, I am not a supporter of the Robin badge on our shirts.

We are Bristol City so to me the crest of  the City was, is and always will be the most appropriate badge for our shirts.

However as a logo for our supporters our supporters club and trust and as a flag I think it is excellent and the placing of the badge on the shorts and socks of the first team, why not, it differentiates them from stuff you can buy in any sports shop or supermarket.. 

[Robin1988]

Just to break down WTMS' point on the robin/bridge/football thing, not only could the robin could mean any of various other clubs, one of whom we hate with a passion, the football could mean any club in the land (West Brom's hoof-ball aside) and half of the Suspension Bridge isn't even in Bristol!

[BS4 on Tour...]

2 hours ago, JM91 said:

you havent proven anything wrong, youve misinterpreted the statement and argued against something that you yourself have made up.

You posted a list of clubs which you said used a bird and a ball on their badges. I merely pointed out that this was untrue for 99% of that list....can't see how I misinterpreted anything...

[BS4 on Tour...]

2 hours ago, JM91 said:

you havent proven anything wrong, youve misinterpreted the statement and argued against something that you yourself have made up.

...and you've mysteriously ignored my response to your other post - which highlighted that we only wore the coat of arms as our badge for one match between 1902 and 1951 and it pointed out that you were incorrect when you said the Robin 'only appeared when we got to the top flight' (I presumed you meant in 1976).

We wore the Robin badge from 1949...

[spudski]

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

From what I gather City fans started to refer to us as "the Robins" from around 1926 when the song ‘When the red, red, robin goes bob, bob, bobbing along’, was released. The fact that we played in red shirts and white shorts probably seemed to fit and makes sense reference to Cider Heads fantastic 1935 photo showing the "Up the Robins" banner.

So we have been known as the Robins for almost 100 years, the Robin first appeared on the shirt almost 70 years ago, the red robin bobbing along song was played at home games from as far back as I can remember back to at least the early 70's.

The coat of arms on the other hand has played virtually no part in the history of Bristol City fans other than being worn on the shirt in the 1909 cup final and in the 60's and from around the 90's onwards.

The robin has not appeared on the shirt for 20 years and yet many fans associate the Robin with City - that's not just nostalgia by older fans, witness the angry robin which many younger and older fans alike have adopted.

If the coat of arms was taken away from the shirt I don't think anyone would be too bothered because there appears little affection for it as being part of our identity.

Whereas the robin clearly means a lot to many.

On that basis the argument for the robin is very persuasive.

Apparently it was earlier than 1909... as was the 'Robins' term...

In 1900 City merged with Bedminster, the club who had moved to Ashton Gate from Greenway Bush Lane. After one season playing at both St. John’s Lane and Ashton Gate and then three seasons back at St. John’s Lane, the decision was made in 1904 to adopt Ashton Gate as the new home.

The players by now wore red shirts and white shorts, adopted in 1897, a combination almost unchanged for the following hundred years which eventually would earn them the nickname ‘The Robins’. The earliest documentation of a tag however was ‘The Garabaldians’, so called on account of the red shirts worn by the followers of the Italian revolutionary Garibaldi. In those early days the players were also referred to as ‘The Citizens’ as well as simply the ‘Red Shirts ’or ‘Reds’.

In consequence of their rapid rise to prominence they soon became universally known as the ‘Bristol Babe’, lasting until the late 1940’s when the present nickname came to fore, this apparently first having been used in 1926 when the song ‘When the red, red, robin goes bob, bob, bobbing along’, written by Harry Woods was the hit of the moment.

The red and white from the year ‘The Robins’ turned professional remained until adopting an all red strip in the mid-Sixties. It was jettisoned after six years and so the early Seventies saw the return of the familiar red and white. The beginning of the Eighties heralded black shorts, but the following season saw a reversion to white. However, the past few seasons all red has made a re-appearance. In the opinion of many faithfuls, City’s best ever strip was that worn in the 1954-55 promotion season, this being modelled on the Arsenal kit.

With regard to the club’s badge this has, since 1897, always been the Coat of Arms of the City and County of Bristol, first appearing on the shirt for the 1901-02 campaign. By a patent of Robert Cooke esquire, alias Clariencieux, principal and king of ares of the south east and west part of this realm of England from the river of Trente southewards, the arms of the city of Bristol are declared to be “gules on a mount vert, issuant out of a castle silver upon wave, a ship gold” and the crest and supporters granted in 1569 “upon the heaulme in a wreathe golde and gules; issuant out of the cloudes two armes in saltour charnew, in the one hand a serpent vert, in the other a pair of balance gold; supported with two unicornes seant gold mained, horned; and clayed sables mantled gules dowbled silver.” The motto “Virtute et industria.”

Uuhh, what does that mean? Well, the arms show a golden ship, representing Bristol’s seafaring traditions, leaving from the Watergate of a silver castle, signifying a stronghold. Bristol’s castle at that time was a twin-towered structure, built in the 1240s by order of Henry III. The helmet above the shield depicts the armies that left Bristol in early history. The crossed arms over the crown hold scales in one hand, denoting justice and a green serpent in the other hand, indicating wisdom.

This emblem first appeared on the shirts for the 1901-02 campaign and was retained for 1902-03. Subseqently it did not re-appear, except for the FA Cup final of 1909, until post-war days in 1950-51.

However, in 1949-50 a badge was on the shirt, but this saw the use of a robin for the first time. The arms remained until the end of the 1960-61 season. It wasn’t until 1970-71 that the practice was revived. As Bristol City’s club badge was similar in design to that of Bristol Rovers, the Ashton Gate club launched a competition among their supporters in the early Seventies to design a completely new crest.

A 57-year old rugby fan, Harry Winn, won the prize in 1972 by coming up with a robin on a five-bar gate. Appearing in the programme and on City’s merchandise it never graced the club shirts which continued to show the coat of arms.

The 1976-77 campaign heralded the adoption of the robin, ball and Clifton Suspension Bridge design. It remained on the shirt until 1983 when plain lettering simply showing B.C. 82 was introduced. It wasn’t until 1986-87 that the robin badge made a re-appearance and remained until the mid-Nineties when the arms were restored.

[NickJ]

13 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

This appears to be another glaring assumption in the debate; both robin and crest lovers assume no one really cares about the other one. I'd guess people are generally fairly warm towards both, but I'd love to see you back up what you've said with any kind of evidence beyond the circles you mix with.

Easy - some of the evidence is within the remainder of my thread which you have not quoted, and nothing to do with "circles I mix with". 

I have never heard fans singing about the coat of arms, there has never been a coat of arms song sung before games. Fans groups don't in general produce lapel badges with the coat of arms.

I do not believe any otib forum member has a "coat of arms" moniker whereas many incorporate the robin which I doubt is entirely down to it being their name.

The coat of arms does not feature anywhere other than official merchandise.

 

 

[Robin1988]

2 minutes ago, NickJ said:

I have never heard fans singing about the coat of arms, there has never been a coat of arms song sung before games. Fans groups don't in general produce lapel badges with the coat of arms.

I do not believe any otib forum member has a "coat of arms" moniker whereas many incorporate the robin which I doubt is entirely down to it being their name.

The coat of arms does not feature anywhere other than official merchandise.

Has there been a song about a robin badge? Maybe about our nickname, but that's not the same thing. If I'm wrong fair enough, but short of a regular song about the old badge it's a largely moot point. Given the official badge is the crest, fan groups are arguably more likely to use something else to be seen as unofficial.

Regardless, what you're saying is all circumstancial (the point I was getting at) because I don't see anything about no one being bothered if the crest went?

[WTMS]

11 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

Just to break down WTMS' point on the robin/bridge/football thing, not only could the robin could mean any of various other clubs, one of whom we hate with a passion, the football could mean any club in the land (West Brom's hoof-ball aside) and half of the Suspension Bridge isn't even in Bristol!

 

The above would not be confused with anybody else.

The point being made was if the Crest was widely popular the Robin in an Angry form  or otherwise would fade away. The Robins appeal from Scrumpy to Erns stretches across ages and types of fans. Thousands of items featuring Robins get sold by fans because of the Crest's lack of appeal. Is that a reason to change the crest? No, but it is a reason to look at what Bristol Sport and City do not sell. There is a market for the Robin.

Highlighting others interesting. work,.