So for all you 'sack the manager short termists'....

[Chappers]

I would class the OP as realistic rather than negative. We are trying to do a lot in terms of making the club sustainable long term, whilst trying to repair a mess and make us competitive in a tough league. Some worrying signs, but see what the January transfer window brings. 

[Fordy62]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

i'm sat here tonight not knowing how I stand about Lee Johnson - but I do know I want to get behind the team on Monday.

And Dave, the latter part doesn't surprise me at all. 

The former part however is worrying. You know things are bad when the more rational of contributors start to question things. 

Lets hope this is all just a big blip in the middle of a very successful season!

[Londoner]

5 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

And Dave, the latter part doesn't surprise me at all. 

The former part however is worrying. You know things are bad when the more rational of contributors start to question things. 

Lets hope this is all just a big blip in the middle of a very successful season!

I think it's going to be incredibly difficult to have a successful season when we have no consistency in selection or tactics....in fact I think it will be impossible.....proof is pretty much every side above us in the league!

[Jack Dawe]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just one thing NOT to forget about the summer recruitment;

- we had to build something from a threadbare squad

in fact make that two things:

- the new loan rules, meant we had to do it all quickly.

We may have recruited in practice players that aren't as good as we hoped (yet to really know though), but we couldn't go into this season with 16/18 players either.

All @spudski is stating is that this division ain't easy, we aren't the big fish with a divine right that many think we are.  I'm not sure what he has actually said that's wrong.

i'm sat here tonight not knowing how I stand about Lee Johnson - but I do know I want to get behind the team on Monday.

More excuses, Dave. "The new loan rules" apply to every club in this league. We employ people and pay them to get this right, not to cock up the Kodj thing, leave us short, then go "it's the new rules" excuses. Not good enough

"Threadbare squad"? We hammered Huddersfield at the end of last season, and finished above them. Another poor excuse. What about Barnsley, 6th in L1 last year, sold their top player, rookie coach blah blah

"This division aint easy" no, but it aint impossible either. The alternative is to go back to L1 and take it "easy" there for a while

We recruited poorly......

 

Yes, too many people at the club doing "poorly." 

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

And Dave, the latter part doesn't surprise me at all. 

The former part however is worrying. You know things are bad when the more rational of contributors start to question things. 

Lets hope this is all just a big blip in the middle of a very successful season!

Hope so.  I don't get the 'we are only losing by one goal" brigade however.  Something needs to change.

One thing I will say is that if my job depended on Monday v Reading my starting eleven would be:

 

 

 

 

 

known to me 

[Portland Bill]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

...Come on then...what manager would guarantee wins in this league with the squad we have?

You all seem to know the budget we have to play with, and what players are available in January. Of course any new manager will have an endless budget, will be able to bring in anyone...it's just like going shopping in Tesco's  when doing your shopping don't you know...you can buy and loan whoever you want. You'll have already lined up players to release, and already done work with scouts, other managers and Agents in negotiating new deals. Easy isn't it...just bring them in, like we did last time we were in this position. Of course there are no more limitations to loans like before. Just go in and pick em off a shelf....

We must be absolutely crap...lose to Ipswich who have been in this division for 15 years.

Above Forest and Blackburn, Cardiff and QPR....how crap at this level must they be. Don't get me on the run Norwich are having with all their experience, money and players...we must be really crap.

Yep...two seasons up, with a rookie manager and very average Championship squad...who the hell do we think we are?

Get a bloody grip. when you look at those teams struggling...it shows how easy this league is right????

Exactly half way through the season and 17th....about right...no?

January window coming up...believe...it's no good moaning and thinking we have a divine right to do better. So many teams far better off than us, financially, player wise, and experience and all struggling.

I'm someone who believes managers should get time, I actually still feel that Steve Cotterill was not given the time, I still think we owed him a season in the Championship as reward for the previous season. But he got sacked and I'm led to believe his record last season is now about on par with LJ's this season?.

Facts speak for themselves, we have now lost 8 of our last 9 games under LJ, a manager who totally lacks experience in this league, and is being out thought by managers with experience and obviously a lot more know how than him.

I don't believe that any other Championship club would have appointed LJ as their manager when we did, ( this isn't a LJ out post,I'm sitting on the fence) the only reason he got the job was down to him being a former City player and friend of SL.

By our clubs standard he was given a fortune to spend last summer, he bought in some very good players but it does seem that he lacks the nous and know how to gel and coach these good players into a team. 

I have no opinion on who else could currently manage us, but I am beginning to wonder if it is just a case that LJ just isn't good enough to be managing in this league.

 

 

[Londoner]

6 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

I'm someone who believes managers should get time, I actually still feel that Steve Cotterill was not given the time, I still think we owed him a season in the Championship as reward for the previous season. But he got sacked and I'm led to believe his record last season is now about on par with LJ's this season?.

Facts speak for themselves, we have now lost 8 of our last 9 games under LJ, a manager who totally lacks experience in this league, and is being out thought by managers with experience and obviously a lot more know how than him.

I don't believe that any other Championship club would have appointed LJ as their manager when we did, ( this isn't a LJ out post,I'm sitting on the fence) the only reason he got the job was down to him being a former City player and friend of SL.

By our clubs standard he was given a fortune to spend last summer, he bought in some very good players but it does seem that he lacks the nous and know how to gel and coach these good players into a team. 

I have no opinion on who else could currently manage us, but I am beginning to wonder if it is just a case that LJ just isn't good enough to be managing in this league.

 

 

The part highlighted is exactly the issue....hence the constant chopping and changing, which has proven to be a massive hindrance.

 

[Jack Dawe]

1 hour ago, JHAGa said:

 

Negative net spend after selling our best player.

Another excuse.

It is the responsibility of LJ, MA, SL and the club to put together a team and squad capable of doing well in this league, and to do better than last season. They decided to sell him.

 

 

[Norn Iron]

1 hour ago, pongo88 said:

I haven't got much faith in this list. It shows David Webb, aged 70, who has been available since 1993! (At least he should be cheap)

Actually he's been available since 1999 but his name was changed to Jason Bourne. I know it's true.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

More excuses, Dave. "The new loan rules" apply to every club in this league. We employ people and pay them to get this right, not to cock up the Kodj thing, leave us short, then go "it's the new rules" excuses. Not good enough

"Threadbare squad"? We hammered Huddersfield at the end of last season, and finished above them. Another poor excuse. What about Barnsley, 6th in L1 last year, sold their top player, rookie coach blah blah

"This division aint easy" no, but it aint impossible either. The alternative is to go back to L1 and take it "easy" there for a while

We recruited poorly......

 

Yes, too many people at the club doing "poorly." 

Jack - but those other clubs already had a squad, what did we have?  14 or 15 first team squad members.

Cotts in some ways got it spot on in League One - perm 14 players into a starting 11, have 3 or 4 others, thus contain your wage bill to 18 players.  Other teams with squads of 30+ moaned about our budget.

Should Johnson have gone out and bought 3 or 4 ready made players and Sod (not SOD!) the rest of the squad and run a risk of injury etc, with no loan window?  I don't know, you tell me your thoughts.

Again, Cotts knew he only had to keep a very small number of players on the fringe happy, e.g. JET, Waggy, Greg.  They got their minutes at the end of games and their win bonuses.  When Wilbs and Agard got injured, JET came in, ably supported by an emergency loan (Smith).

There are too many ifs, buts and maybes to know whether we recruited well or not...depends on when you make your judgement?

 

[NickJ]

7 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

What other manager would have assembled the squad - or "young group" - that LJ judged good enough for this season, bearing in mind the resources available to him? I think none, most probably.

We have a good idea about transfer fees paid last summer. And we spent more than Huddersfield, Barnsley, Preston and others. All three out performing us. And I think we can be sure we have spent more than Burton, who we 2 points ahead of. Not really getting value for money there, I'd say. Not good enough, I'd say.

Forest, QPR, Cardiff, Blackburn - all clubs in a mess following relegation and in debt (and transfer embargoes)and ownership turmoil and problems, and declining gates. So that's why they are currently struggling. But what's our excuse?

We were promoted, we had "momentum," we have a great new ground, we have our biggest crowds since 1979, we have more income than ever, we have a proper COO, we have a wealthy and generous backer. We have more in place and are better prepared for this level of football than we have probably ever been - accept maybe the early 70s when we had a great youth policy - and still we struggle.

One thing we do not have is an experienced coach. But then neither do Barnsley. Or Huddersfield, for that matter.

What we do have now, is excuses. Like your OP is chock full of.

No. We finished 18th last season, so no. Not right. Not good enough. 

This is the thinking and the language of mediocrity and failure. And of helplessness. "What can we do?" "What do you expect?" "So and so's not doing well either." "This is a tough league." "They've all got parachute payments." "We're only losing by one goal." "It's a young group." Failure, mediocrity, loser mentality. Excuses. Who ever achieved anything worthwhile with thinking like that?

Oh, and Huddersfield finished below us, and Reading finished on the same points as us last season. And Barnsley, sixth in L1 last season, have a rookie coach, he's been in the job since Lee left. Proper rookie, him. More excuses, spudski. Not good enough. Not acceptable. Loser mentality.

 

Your post is full of excuses and helplessness. We can only hope the people at the club are not of the same mind. 

 

 

That, is. Nail. Head. Etc.

Outstanding post.

 

I'm going to borrow a mini conversation from another forum:

 

POSTER 1

"I still don't understand how we won league one with ease but 19 months later we end up here like this?"

 

POSTER 2

"This is a much better division and SC knew the players required.Maguire, Grey, Gayle etc, etc.

Our Board wouldn't commit the funds to buy them

LJ doesn't

SL Likes him more"

 

 

[cidercity1987]

8 hours ago, Benjam!n Ultra said:

 

So many clubs financially off better is not an argument. We spent more in the summer than 19 other clubs in this league. 

 

How much did we spend net? Less than most! 

[Miah Dennehy]

8 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I can see what you're saying, but I think for many of us, it's the perennial lack of success, I was fortunate enough to see Arsenal, Leeds, Man U etc at the Gate in our only spell of top flight football, but either side of that it's been an occasional season of happiness, followed by several of despair.  This one currently is plumbing the depths of that despair and could, without being over dramatic, be a bloody terrible one.  That said, a few decent players in the transfer window could see things change round and after the free fall, anything that guarantees safety will be gladly accepted by most.

Which  way will it go, I have no idea, I'm glad I haven't got the drawer with P45's in under my control, as I would be having my hand hovering near it now, but only if I had someone with a proven record to bring in.  The long term might pan out well with LJ in charge, but if this forum, City fans in pubs and on other media are getting jumpy now, imagine what it will be like if we go down.  What impact would that have on season ticket sales, the general atmosphere and aura built up by the new stadium and championship status, something the powers that be must be considering, even if it is to stick with their man and accept the outcome, good or bad.

Compared to who? Barcelona, Chelsea, Arsenal? Or |Wrexham, Plymouth, Stockport?

One of football clubs biggest problems is it's own fans perceptions of their place in the scheme of things. This is why clubs who win Champions Leagues and premier leagues sack managers because of the ridiculous notion that teams should always be on the up- it literally isn't possible.

Look at any teams forums after they have lost a match, I can pretty much guarantee someone (almost certainly with no more knowledge of the game than a professional) will start to cast doubts about the manager, players or directors. After any Rovers  defeat there are plenty of critics  of the managers penchant for always changing his starting line up, 'He doesn't know his best 11' being the favourite shout, ignoring the fact that the club has back to promotions with this policy , and are still handily placed this season.

There is no denying City are in an awful run of form, and Johnson may or may not turn it around, but I absolutely guarantee you one thing, if he is sacked, the new manager will, at some point, also hit a terrible run of form, so what do you do then?

 

[ChippenhamRed]

8 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

I'm someone who believes managers should get time, I actually still feel that Steve Cotterill was not given the time, I still think we owed him a season in the Championship as reward for the previous season. But he got sacked and I'm led to believe his record last season is now about on par with LJ's this season?.

Facts speak for themselves, we have now lost 8 of our last 9 games under LJ, a manager who totally lacks experience in this league, and is being out thought by managers with experience and obviously a lot more know how than him.

I don't believe that any other Championship club would have appointed LJ as their manager when we did, ( this isn't a LJ out post,I'm sitting on the fence) the only reason he got the job was down to him being a former City player and friend of SL.

By our clubs standard he was given a fortune to spend last summer, he bought in some very good players but it does seem that he lacks the nous and know how to gel and coach these good players into a team. 

I have no opinion on who else could currently manage us, but I am beginning to wonder if it is just a case that LJ just isn't good enough to be managing in this league.

 

 

You are making it way too personal. You cannot risk what is best for the club because you think you owe something to an individual. Cotterill was rewarded for his efforts - he was paid handsomely! I dare say he got a bonus for promotion too. You don't make a club a manager's play thing just because he did well the previous season.

Cotterill's record last season was not on a par with Johnson's this season. When he left we were 23rd(?ish?) and deep in trouble. Currently we are 17th and still 7 clear of the drop. Big difference. Personally for now I think Johnson gets the benefit of the doubt, but I'm certainly wavering.

[WhistleHappy]

9 hours ago, Mike Hunt-Hertz said:

Short *expletive*!

Short *johnson*!  ... ?

[ChippenhamRed]

7 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

Another excuse.

It is the responsibility of LJ, MA, SL and the club to put together a team and squad capable of doing well in this league, and to do better than last season. They decided to sell him.

 

 

Indeed. Also as I said further up the thread, the "negative net spend" argument is misleading because we got Tammy for free. It's reasonable to consider Tammy of very similar value to Kodjia based on his goals return this season, so in terms of players at his disposal, Johnson has a more valuable squad now than the previous season.

[old_eastender]

I can't see SL getting rid of LJ, BUT suppose he did we could do a lot worse then trying to prize his Barnsley replacement from them... He has shown how to build a team, playing to their strengths, square pegs in square holes so they all know what they are trying to do - and he has done it spending very little. Just imagine if Barnsley had Tammy up front, they would probably be sitting pretty in the top 6 now...

 

 

[ChippenhamRed]

57 minutes ago, NickJ said:

That, is. Nail. Head. Etc.

Outstanding post.

 

I'm going to borrow a mini conversation from another forum:

 

POSTER 1

"I still don't understand how we won league one with ease but 19 months later we end up here like this?"

 

POSTER 2

"This is a much better division and SC knew the players required.Maguire, Grey, Gayle etc, etc.

Our Board wouldn't commit the funds to buy them

LJ doesn't

SL Likes him more"

 

 

Wouldn't commit the funds, or couldn't commit the funds?

This club has to operate within its financial means. It's easy for you to sit here and spend someone else's money. Grey is now scoring goals in the Premier League and Gayle is top scorer at the best side in the league. Were they realistic acquisitions for a club just promoted from the third tier?

Maybe the difference between Cotterill and Johnson is that Johnson is better able to appreciate the financial constraints within which the club must operate. Perhaps that's why Lansdown likes him more.

I'm not defending our current position because I do think Johnson is now underachieving against the investment made. But you make it sound far too simple.

[Top Robin]

10 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Take your pick....

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/trainer/verfuegbaretrainer/statistik

I wouldn't mind Quim (page 3) 

[LondonBristolian]

9 hours ago, Londoner said:

Astounding that someone can struggle to understand a concept that he clearly attempts to engage in. This post is laughable beyond belief. You just don't understand.

Let me explain it for you. Blackburn, Cardiff, qpr and forest have all recently had transfer embargos.....they are also clubs that a run by bordering lunatics whose negative presence and inability to run a football club filters through the club like a very unpleasant illness....it is absolutely no surprise they are near the bottom....the only side out of those who seemingly have supportive owners are qpr.....unfortunately they are inept. You should know this.

Yes Norwich are on a bad run, they are also still midtable and there are grumblings in the open regarding Neil....LJ currently spared.

We have Ipswich where MM has no money....zilch, and Barnsley who have had to recruit from the lower leagues just to add depth to their squad.

You have Preston and Birmingham. two more teams with **** all to spend....they seem to be doing all right. 

We on the other hand have money to spend...with most of our signings not getting a consistent look in.....Engvall Patterson O'Dowda Brownhill Ekstrand Moore.....but it's OK, we are looking to the future.

Look at the other sides in this league and you realise we have no excuses...none, but I knoe that because I have a firm grasp of the league and the teams in it......you clearly don't. 

 

Worth pointing out QPR have not at any point had a transfer embargo. If you're going to tell others they are wrong then it might be worth making sure you have your facts right when you do so.

[Super]

10 hours ago, Shtanley said:

Gary Rowett is right up there for the Swansea job. I don't think he'd come here. 

He wont be good enough for some on here same ones that thought gary monk wasnt good enough!

[screech]

10 hours ago, spudski said:

...Come on then...what manager would guarantee wins in this league with the squad we have?

You all seem to know the budget we have to play with, and what players are available in January. Of course any new manager will have an endless budget, will be able to bring in anyone...it's just like going shopping in Tesco's  when doing your shopping don't you know...you can buy and loan whoever you want. You'll have already lined up players to release, and already done work with scouts, other managers and Agents in negotiating new deals. Easy isn't it...just bring them in, like we did last time we were in this position. Of course there are no more limitations to loans like before. Just go in and pick em off a shelf....

We must be absolutely crap...lose to Ipswich who have been in this division for 15 years.

Above Forest and Blackburn, Cardiff and QPR....how crap at this level must they be. Don't get me on the run Norwich are having with all their experience, money and players...we must be really crap.

Yep...two seasons up, with a rookie manager and very average Championship squad...who the hell do we think we are?

Get a bloody grip. when you look at those teams struggling...it shows how easy this league is right????

Exactly half way through the season and 17th....about right...no?

January window coming up...believe...it's no good moaning and thinking we have a divine right to do better. So many teams far better off than us, financially, player wise, and experience and all struggling.

This coming from the man who wanted O'Driscoll to carry on after winning something like 2 games in 20 and had us rooted in the relegation zone in the league below and wanted Cotterill out of the door as soon as he hit a sticky patch after bringing us a double winning season and now wants Johnson to stay on who has no record to speak of to back up why we should keep him here.

At the moment we are full of excuses and little else, the money has been spent poorly and he cannot motivate what we have here. For me Mondays game will be do or die, there have been plenty of winnable games in this losing streak for us to come away with something, it cannot keep being unlucky to not grab a win or draw a game you didn't deserve to or have a game where you are clearly dominant and get done by a worldy.

Excuses for me will stop after Mondays game, his team will need to get something to prove to me he can operate at this level, there are plenty of coaches out there who aren't able to, our job will be to find one that can.

[054123]

10 hours ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

We're Bristol City damn it!! We should be pissing this league

Seriously though 100% agree with your post Spud, I to would like to know who posters want to come in... but lets be honest, he'll have a good spell and we'll all love him then the inevitable bad run and its back to sack him... repeat cycle.

This is the problem. Its not about change, its about who makes the change. The clubs massive failings over the last 10 years (and they are failings given the resourcing) are nothing to do with Johnson, Coterilll etc etc.

[Jack Dawe]

39 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Wouldn't commit the funds, or couldn't commit the funds?

This club has to operate within its financial means. It's easy for you to sit here and spend someone else's money. Grey is now scoring goals in the Premier League and Gayle is top scorer at the best side in the league. Were they realistic acquisitions for a club just promoted from the third tier?

Maybe the difference between Cotterill and Johnson is that Johnson is better able to appreciate the financial constraints within which the club must operate. Perhaps that's why Lansdown likes him more.

I'm not defending our current position because I do think Johnson is now underachieving against the investment made. But you make it sound far too simple.

SL said we "knew what Gayle was on" and that we could afford him, surprising as this seems. We could also offer Grey better wages than he was on at Brentford. But maybe not what Burnley offered. There are quotes from SL online from a year ago showing this

[ChippenhamRed]

3 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

SL said we "knew what Gayle was on" and that we could afford him, surprising as this seems. We could also offer Grey better wages than he was on at Brentford. But maybe not what Burnley offered. There are quotes from SL online from a year ago showing this

Fair enough if that's the case although I was responding to a suggestion that was contrary to that ("wouldn't commit the funds" etc).

But that said, it's not just about the money though is it. Burnley were able to offer Gray a realistic shot at promotion to the PL - which they duly achieved - and Gayle was able to move to a bigger club than us, again with a realistic prospect of promotion.

[MarkRed!]

All teams go on a bad run but there is no sign this one will change any time soon. LJ has been given more  resources than SC and he is simply not doing it. We should be higher up the table and we have been beaten by poor sides. I cannot see where our next win is coming and worryingly LJ does not know his best 11. This does not enable consistent performances. His use of Engvall baffles me. 

[GrahamC]

To answer the OP, no manager would.

That isn't the most important question now though, as Ole says how many points are we losing because of who is currently in charge?

I won't lie I wanted Garry Monk instead of LJ (so did my old man, a veteran of over 60 years at AG) which shows that there are good candidates out there, I don't know why our next "head coach" will be, but with every passing game it becomes clearer it will soon be someone else..

[RumRed]

Let me get this straight.

LJ is an up and coming manager

SL loves him like a son

LJ gets in with Tammy by chatting up his mum over a cup of tea

LJ Brings in a talented individual as Tomlin as he can control him whereas others couldn't.

LJ (or someone else) spunks a load of money on players that don't play for the first team.

LJ gets pissed off with Tomlin as he can't control him.

We lose, a lot (but only by the odd goal, so who cares?)

 

 

 

[Jack Dawe]

58 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Indeed. Also as I said further up the thread, the "negative net spend" argument is misleading because we got Tammy for free. It's reasonable to consider Tammy of very similar value to Kodjia based on his goals return this season, so in terms of players at his disposal, Johnson has a more valuable squad now than the previous season.

This is what we don't really know for certain but are all guessing at, desperate for the answer:

Is it that the players are good enough, good enough to be more comfortably midtable? If they are, this then asks questions of the coach and his coaching, his suitability for this level of football. 

Or

Is it that the players are not good enough - that they are worse than all but the poorest 3 or 4 squads; and that it is unreasonable, too much, to expect LJ to get much more out of them - in which case you are left questioning the judgement of the coach and all those responsible for recruitment in assessing the ability of the squad assembled in August for the season ahead.

 

If Dave Fevs is right and we just haven't had the squad, since promotion, what the f*** were we doing buying talent for tomorrow when we are understaffed already, in a league as "tough" and as competitive as this?

[The Fat Controller]

10 hours ago, pongo88 said:

I haven't got much faith in this list. It shows David Webb, aged 70, who has been available since 1993! (At least he should be cheap)

79 year old Johann Löser has been available since 1975. No great surprise with a name like that.