So for all you 'sack the manager short termists'....

[NickJ]

1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Wouldn't commit the funds, or couldn't commit the funds?

This club has to operate within its financial means. It's easy for you to sit here and spend someone else's money. Grey is now scoring goals in the Premier League and Gayle is top scorer at the best side in the league. Were they realistic acquisitions for a club just promoted from the third tier?

Maybe the difference between Cotterill and Johnson is that Johnson is better able to appreciate the financial constraints within which the club must operate. Perhaps that's why Lansdown likes him more.

I'm not defending our current position because I do think Johnson is now underachieving against the investment made. But you make it sound far too simple.

Necessarily simple without a much longer analysis.

Take your point regarding someone else's money. But my point is SL has allowed an inexperienced unproven manager more funds than he allowed a proven winner. Not necessarily Gayle, but Gray would have come here had he been offered the wages. SC identified what he needed for the present, he didn't want to spend millions on players that nobody has ever heard of and are no better than what he already had.

SL likes LJ more because LJ buys into the club philosophy, no doubt other reasons also. Fair enough, it's - rightly or wrongly - SL's toy.

SC had his own philosophy, and didn't entirely buy into the club philosophy.

Maybe SC's was better. Certainly looks that way from where I'm sitting.

 

[Fordy62]

27 minutes ago, Chris_Brown said:

79 year old Johann Löser has been available since 1975. No great surprise with a name like that. 

Are his middle names 'Only By The Odd Goal'?

[RumRed]

Can we also stop this 'divine right' stuff aimed at anyone with a differing opinion?

I know no one that thinks we have a 'divine right' to be anywhere and it smacks to me of cheap politics.

[cityloyal473]

56 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

This is what we don't really know for certain but are all guessing at, desperate for the answer:

Is it that the players are good enough, good enough to be more comfortably midtable? If they are, this then asks questions of the coach and his coaching, his suitability for this level of football. 

Or

Is it that the players are not good enough - that they are worse than all but the poorest 3 or 4 squads; and that it is unreasonable, too much, to expect LJ to get much more out of them - in which case you are left questioning the judgement of the coach and all those responsible for recruitment in assessing the ability of the squad assembled in August for the season ahead.

 

If Dave Fevs is right and we just haven't had the squad, since promotion, what the f*** were we doing buying talent for tomorrow when we are understaffed already, in a league as "tough" and as competitive as this?

Top post.

[Jack Dawe]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Jack - but those other clubs already had a squad, what did we have?  14 or 15 first team squad members.

Cotts in some ways got it spot on in League One - perm 14 players into a starting 11, have 3 or 4 others, thus contain your wage bill to 18 players.  Other teams with squads of 30+ moaned about our budget.

Should Johnson have gone out and bought 3 or 4 ready made players and Sod (not SOD!) the rest of the squad and run a risk of injury etc, with no loan window?  I don't know, you tell me your thoughts.

Again, Cotts knew he only had to keep a very small number of players on the fringe happy, e.g. JET, Waggy, Greg.  They got their minutes at the end of games and their win bonuses.  When Wilbs and Agard got injured, JET came in, ably supported by an emergency loan (Smith).

There are too many ifs, buts and maybes to know whether we recruited well or not...depends on when you make your judgement?

 

My thoughts, Dave, are that between them all - SL, SC, LJ, MA and everyone involved at the club in putting a good enough team and squad for this level of football since promotion - lies responsibility for a poor season last year, and what has now become another poor season this. I don't know where to appoint blame any more precisely than that.

All this though, let us remember, at a very good time for this club, when we are better equipped than at any time most of us can remember to be competitive and not cock up at this level of football. We are in a "good space" with the ground, season ticket sales, average attendance, the lot. There are fewer excuses available to those responsible than in previous seasons at this level. Yet still we struggle. We are now reduced to saying "well, we're doing better than Cardiff/Forest/QPR/Blackburn" basket cases, all. All with huge problems, unlike ourselves. And that list, from spudski, included Wolves a few weeks ago, but not now. How long before Cardiff leapfrog us?

If we cannot make a go of this league now, when are we ever going to?

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

33 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Necessarily simple without a much longer analysis.

Take your point regarding someone else's money. But my point is SL has allowed an inexperienced unproven manager more funds than he allowed a proven winner. Not necessarily Gayle, but Gray would have come here had he been offered the wages. SC identified what he needed for the present, he didn't want to spend millions on players that nobody has ever heard of and are no better than what he already had.

SL likes LJ more because LJ buys into the club philosophy, no doubt other reasons also. Fair enough, it's - rightly or wrongly - SL's toy.

SC had his own philosophy, and didn't entirely buy into the club philosophy.

Maybe SC's was better. Certainly looks that way from where I'm sitting.

 

I guess SCs was better if you want to be a rooted to the bottom of the league, goals drying up, hideous GD and winning 2 games in 28... fantastic philosophy. We were returning to L1 with not even a whimper

Why would Gray come here for the wage if he had a better shot at gaining promotion to the PL with Burnley? Just because City offers a better wage means zip

[Out of his pie crust]

I think he will survive the season but statistically he'd be likely to go given 15-20 sackings in the championship of recent years . Personally I think he needs to beat fleetwood and get more than 1 point from next 3 league games

[Major Isewater]

12 hours ago, Shtanley said:

Gary Rowett is right up there for the Swansea job. I don't think he'd come here. 

Wait a couple of months until Swansea sack him .

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, Top Robin said:

I wouldn't mind Quim (page 3) 

Is that Harry Quim ? 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

4 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Agree with this, though the open criticism of Moore in LJ interview last night is feeding fuel on the dressing room fire. SC had many defects, but I have never seen a BCFC squad fight for each other like he managed to achieve (at least last 20 years) . The one area LJ risks loosing his job is if that dressing room implodes. That is his biggest challenge at the moment. If he gets through it, he will undoubtedly be a far better manager, and we need him to come through, as we will get the benefit. Agree with OP Spudski too, our challenge is hard and it is not a quick fix, the role of MA is for me key to where we go these next years, and the benefit of his work will take years to fully be seen. I don't know if LJ is up to (yet) the task of BCFC, it was a bold move so early in his career to come here, but I cannot name one manager who would come here and buy into the medium term project. Who can buy in  when managers get changed every 5 minutes ? It means they all have to focus on short term, which means signing players for now and not tomorrow. Ready made . Exactly where we have been and exactly why we have become a yoyo L1 club. LJ has to sign more experienced players next week, that is clear, and he needs to change approach to games. He knows that now, it is a 23 game scrap to survive. If we act now , with 27 points already gained, we should survive. If we do nothing and carry on with the same approach to games, we risk very strongly relegation and a fan base that is getting increasingly upset. Lose against Reading and I sense a big change in fans frustration will surface. It's tough for all right now. 

I do not think SL with sack LJ unless fans turn their ire to him. Which would be a first, but as LJ is seen as his choice with almost teflon protection, it is a risk. I really really do hope we are not looking at this scenario as I do not think it will provide any long term benefit to BCFC and may cause terrible damage for our future. 

We all need, no matter how you feel about him, LJ to succeed, and to try and pull through this moment . For the sake of BCFC .

I agree with most of your post apart from the highlighted part.

Think SC was losing the dressing room post Derby game, the cracks were gaping holes by the Reading away game. There was so much dissension on the pitch and SC had totally lost it in terms of the team fighting the cause, it could've been fighting between themselves

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

5 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

I was meaning the way he turned us around in L1 so fast and then got promotion. Agree in the Champ it got messy, he lost the plot , that then went through to the players. Though I do know from direct info, they loved to hate him, but would run through proverbial walls as a squad together. 

Thats a fair comment

[NickJ]

26 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

I guess SCs was better if you want to be a rooted to the bottom of the league, goals drying up, hideous GD and winning 2 games in 28... fantastic philosophy. We were returning to L1 with not even a whimper

Why would Gray come here for the wage if he had a better shot at gaining promotion to the PL with Burnley? Just because City offers a better wage means zip

You don't understand my point, or don't want to.

We ended up where we were this time last year because the club did not buy into SC's philosophy - of acquiring key better players for the now.

It worked in league one. Would have been better if we had stuck with SC's philosophy in the Championship.

LJ is willingly going along with the club's philosophy of buying for the future. A future that in my view will not come.

 

 

[EnclosureSurge]

12 hours ago, allyolly said:

Wow someone with a sense of perspective. 

There's quite a few with a sense of perspective. They either a] get drowned out by the tidal wave of fatalism/pessimism/microscopic-lack-of-contextism or b] they don't post because of a].

We're here, and we are happy to wait till this all blows over and then either a] remind those in a]  above, of the bigger picture or just remain realistic that the next turn on the roller-coaster that is BCFC is round the corner because if we post then...(see a] above)

Those with perspective are so shouted down/ignored/forgotten on here that still, now, after years of retaining perspective, people come on and remark, "Wow, someone with a sense of perspective" as if it's the first time it's happened (no offence to you allyolly).

As other have stated, the 48 hours after a defeat (or, indeed, a win) is generally not the time to make your point about keeping things in perspective. That's when the tidal wave is at its greatest. In fat, thinking about it, I'm not sure when the best time for perspective is... Mid-June?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

17 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

I agree with most of your post apart from the highlighted part.

Think SC was losing the dressing room post Derby game, the cracks were gaping holes by the Reading away game. There was so much dissension on the pitch and SC had totally lost it in terms of the team fighting the cause, it could've been fighting between themselves

of course we had the revelation last night that the same is happening to LJ, with GON and Tomlin, apparently.

 

[GrahamC]

29 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Agree with this, though the open criticism of Moore in LJ interview last night is feeding fuel on the dressing room fire. SC had many defects, but I have never seen a BCFC squad fight for each other like he managed to achieve (at least last 20 years) . The one area LJ risks loosing his job is if that dressing room implodes. That is his biggest challenge at the moment. If he gets through it, he will undoubtedly be a far better manager, and we need him to come through, as we will get the benefit. Agree with OP Spudski too, our challenge is hard and it is not a quick fix, the role of MA is for me key to where we go these next years, and the benefit of his work will take years to fully be seen. I don't know if LJ is up to (yet) the task of BCFC, it was a bold move so early in his career to come here, but I cannot name one manager who would come here and buy into the medium term project. Who can buy in  when managers get changed every 5 minutes ? It means they all have to focus on short term, which means signing players for now and not tomorrow. Ready made . Exactly where we have been and exactly why we have become a yoyo L1 club. LJ has to sign more experienced players next week, that is clear, and he needs to change approach to games. He knows that now, it is a 23 game scrap to survive. If we act now , with 27 points already gained, we should survive. If we do nothing and carry on with the same approach to games, we risk very strongly relegation and a fan base that is getting increasingly upset. Lose against Reading and I sense a big change in fans frustration will surface. It's tough for all right now. 

I do not think SL with sack LJ unless fans turn their ire to him. Which would be a first, but as LJ is seen as his choice with almost teflon protection, it is a risk. I really really do hope we are not looking at this scenario as I do not think it will provide any long term benefit to BCFC and may cause terrible damage for our future. 

We all need, no matter how you feel about him, LJ to succeed, and to try and pull through this moment . For the sake of BCFC .

Such a good post, however personally I truly doubt that the dressing room is 100% behind him, in the way that they were for Cotterill, (much good it did him).

I also think the now regular absences from the squad of his obvious leader in midfield may not always be injury related..

[GrahamC]

49 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

Agree with this, though the open criticism of Moore in LJ interview last night is feeding fuel on the dressing room fire. SC had many defects, but I have never seen a BCFC squad fight for each other like he managed to achieve (at least last 20 years) . The one area LJ risks loosing his job is if that dressing room implodes. That is his biggest challenge at the moment. If he gets through it, he will undoubtedly be a far better manager, and we need him to come through, as we will get the benefit. Agree with OP Spudski too, our challenge is hard and it is not a quick fix, the role of MA is for me key to where we go these next years, and the benefit of his work will take years to fully be seen. I don't know if LJ is up to (yet) the task of BCFC, it was a bold move so early in his career to come here, but I cannot name one manager who would come here and buy into the medium term project. Who can buy in  when managers get changed every 5 minutes ? It means they all have to focus on short term, which means signing players for now and not tomorrow. Ready made . Exactly where we have been and exactly why we have become a yoyo L1 club. LJ has to sign more experienced players next week, that is clear, and he needs to change approach to games. He knows that now, it is a 23 game scrap to survive. If we act now , with 27 points already gained, we should survive. If we do nothing and carry on with the same approach to games, we risk very strongly relegation and a fan base that is getting increasingly upset. Lose against Reading and I sense a big change in fans frustration will surface. It's tough for all right now. 

I do not think SL with sack LJ unless fans turn their ire to him. Which would be a first, but as LJ is seen as his choice with almost teflon protection, it is a risk. I really really do hope we are not looking at this scenario as I do not think it will provide any long term benefit to BCFC and may cause terrible damage for our future. 

We all need, no matter how you feel about him, LJ to succeed, and to try and pull through this moment . For the sake of BCFC .

Double post.

[Benjam!n Ultra]

The OP:

[bearded_red]

11 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

What other manager would have assembled the squad - or "young group" - that LJ judged good enough for this season, bearing in mind the resources available to him? I think none, most probably.

We have a good idea about transfer fees paid last summer. And we spent more than Huddersfield, Barnsley, Preston and others. All three out performing us. And I think we can be sure we have spent more than Burton, who we 2 points ahead of. Not really getting value for money there, I'd say. Not good enough, I'd say.

Forest, QPR, Cardiff, Blackburn - all clubs in a mess following relegation and in debt (and transfer embargoes)and ownership turmoil and problems, and declining gates. So that's why they are currently struggling. But what's our excuse?

We were promoted, we had "momentum," we have a great new ground, we have our biggest crowds since 1979, we have more income than ever, we have a proper COO, we have a wealthy and generous backer. We have more in place and are better prepared for this level of football than we have probably ever been - accept maybe the early 70s when we had a great youth policy - and still we struggle.

One thing we do not have is an experienced coach. But then neither do Barnsley. Or Huddersfield, for that matter.

What we do have now, is excuses. Like your OP is chock full of.

No. We finished 18th last season, so no. Not right. Not good enough. 

This is the thinking and the language of mediocrity and failure. And of helplessness. "What can we do?" "What do you expect?" "So and so's not doing well either." "This is a tough league." "They've all got parachute payments." "We're only losing by one goal." "It's a young group." Failure, mediocrity, loser mentality. Excuses. Who ever achieved anything worthwhile with thinking like that?

Oh, and Huddersfield finished below us, and Reading finished on the same points as us last season. And Barnsley, sixth in L1 last season, have a rookie coach, he's been in the job since Lee left. Proper rookie, him. More excuses, spudski. Not good enough. Not acceptable. Loser mentality.

 

Your post is full of excuses and helplessness. We can only hope the people at the club are not of the same mind. 

 

 

Brilliant post.

[Jack Dawe]

27 minutes ago, EnclosureSurge said:

thinking about it, I'm not sure when the best time for perspective is... Mid-June?

Season ticket renewal time?

[Norn Iron]

I'm sure there are stats readily available so let's compare LJ's performance to date with a proven manager from the past, Mr Alan Dicks.

I'm sure that if OTIB was around after Alan's first full year, the comments would be very similar to the above posts. I'm assuming here that Alan's tenure didn't start too smoothly.  So who can provide stats? AD vs LJ.

[bristolcitysweden]

Sacking the manager has short term always been very helpful at this club.

[bristolcitysweden]

From the top and down this club is naive

[Esmond Million's Bung]

12 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

What other manager would have assembled the squad - or "young group" - that LJ judged good enough for this season, bearing in mind the resources available to him? I think none, most probably.

We have a good idea about transfer fees paid last summer. And we spent more than Huddersfield, Barnsley, Preston and others. All three out performing us. And I think we can be sure we have spent more than Burton, who we 2 points ahead of. Not really getting value for money there, I'd say. Not good enough, I'd say.

Forest, QPR, Cardiff, Blackburn - all clubs in a mess following relegation and in debt (and transfer embargoes)and ownership turmoil and problems, and declining gates. So that's why they are currently struggling. But what's our excuse?

We were promoted, we had "momentum," we have a great new ground, we have our biggest crowds since 1979, we have more income than ever, we have a proper COO, we have a wealthy and generous backer. We have more in place and are better prepared for this level of football than we have probably ever been - accept maybe the early 70s when we had a great youth policy - and still we struggle.

One thing we do not have is an experienced coach. But then neither do Barnsley. Or Huddersfield, for that matter.

What we do have now, is excuses. Like your OP is chock full of.

No. We finished 18th last season, so no. Not right. Not good enough. 

This is the thinking and the language of mediocrity and failure. And of helplessness. "What can we do?" "What do you expect?" "So and so's not doing well either." "This is a tough league." "They've all got parachute payments." "We're only losing by one goal." "It's a young group." Failure, mediocrity, loser mentality. Excuses. Who ever achieved anything worthwhile with thinking like that?

Oh, and Huddersfield finished below us, and Reading finished on the same points as us last season. And Barnsley, sixth in L1 last season, have a rookie coach, he's been in the job since Lee left. Proper rookie, him. More excuses, spudski. Not good enough. Not acceptable. Loser mentality.

 

Your post is full of excuses and helplessness. We can only hope the people at the club are not of the same mind. 

 

 

I am still supporting LJ but that support is hanging by a thread, I agree with everything in your post, the irony is that not only was the post you replied to full of excuses but so was last nights post match interview from LJ it has been slowly building to the BS that he spouted last night and the build up has included blaming refereeing decisions, not a lot wrong, unlucky, deserved more blah, blah, blah all things the OP poured scorn on the previous manager for at every opportunity.

The truth is we are in a deep mess and our recent form will put off potential signings from moving to us in January.

I will say it once more the utter BS of 'not a lot wrong' could not be farther from the truth, in 4 of our last 5 defeats, we have managed to get back into games from going 1 down and then gone on PREDICTABLY to lose the game and I say predictably because I would venture a very high percentage of fans believed that we would not hold on to our gain and if our form is that predictable then something is seriously wrong.

Last night we never (as far as I could tell) fashioned one goalscoring opportunity apart from one presented to us from a goalkeeping mistake and yet LJ believes we deserved a point.

I repeat we are in a deep mess yet again.

 

[Jack Dawe]

13 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I am still supporting LJ but that support is hanging by a thread, I agree with everything in your post, the irony is that not only was the post you replied to full of excuses but so was last nights post match interview from LJ it has been slowly building to the BS that he spouted last night and the build up has included blaming refereeing decisions, not a lot wrong, unlucky, deserved more blah, blah, blah all things the OP poured scorn on the previous manager for at every opportunity.

The truth is we are in a deep mess and our recent form will put off potential signings from moving to us in January.

I will say it once more the utter BS of 'not a lot wrong' could not be farther from the truth, in 4 of our last 5 defeats, we have managed to get back into games from going 1 down and then gone on PREDICTABLY to lose the game and I say predictably because I would venture a very high percentage of fans believed that we would not hold on to our gain and if our form is that predictable then something is seriously wrong.

Last night we never (as far as I could tell) fashioned one goalscoring opportunity apart from one presented to us from a goalkeeping mistake and yet LJ believes we deserved a point.

I repeat we are in a deep mess yet again.

 

I believe that spud's OP last night was, more than anything else, about shoring up and surrounding with sand bags his own reputation - who can forget his scorn for SC 12 months ago, and enthusiasm for "intelligent" football people like LJ, and SO'D. 

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

23 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

I believe that spud's OP last night was, more than anything else, about shoring up and surrounding with sand bags his own reputation - who can forget his scorn for SC 12 months ago, and enthusiasm for "intelligent" football people like LJ, and SO'D. 

So "intelligent" that one got us relegated and almost relegated again and LJ?

[Bazooka Joe]

13 hours ago, spudski said:

...Come on then...what manager would guarantee wins in this league with the squad we have?

 

No manager would guarantee wins, but some would make that much more probable than others (including Lee Johnson).

The right manager would/may be able to change the squad (fairly quickly) and possibly get a lot more out of some of the current squad.

Whichever way you look at it, Lee is failing to deliver and his shortcomings are becoming more evident with each successive loss.

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

No manager would guarantee wins, but some would make that much more probable than others (including Lee Johnson).

The right manager would/may be able to change the squad (fairly quickly) and possibly get a lot more out of some of the current squad.

Whichever way you look at it, Lee is failing to deliver and his shortcomings are becoming more evident with each successive loss.

Like Warnock at Cardiff? And how would they be able to change the squad anymore quickly than LJ? Perhaps its the players who are failing to deliver and need to up their game? Just a thought....

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

You don't understand my point, or don't want to.

We ended up where we were this time last year because the club did not buy into SC's philosophy - of acquiring key better players for the now.

It worked in league one. Would have been better if we had stuck with SC's philosophy in the Championship.

LJ is willingly going along with the club's philosophy of buying for the future. A future that in my view will not come.

 

 

So key players for the now like Gray who obviously didn't want to come here?

That was L1 this is the Championship, we were a relatively big fish in L1 and we are small one now. Its difficult to attract very good players to come here  due to the fact we'd probably have to consolidate until we become established and increase our stature in this division. 

His philosophy in that respect is a major gamble, plus the guy was out of his depth anyway. Johnson proved that he could get the best out of pretty much the same players by steering us to safety.

[Norn Iron]

57 minutes ago, Norn Iron said:

I'm sure there are stats readily available so let's compare LJ's performance to date with a proven manager from the past, Mr Alan Dicks.

I'm sure that if OTIB was around after Alan's first full year, the comments would be very similar to the above posts. I'm assuming here that Alan's tenure didn't start too smoothly.  So who can provide stats? AD vs LJ.

OK. ...I've started the stats. ..

I have discounted the first season when AD and LJ were appointed (Oct 67 and Feb 16).

68-69 season saw us win 11 and draw 16. That would give us 49 points with 2 less games (or 38 points in old money)

16-17 sees us currently with 8 wins and 3 draws (27 points or 19 pts in old money). 

You, of course, can massage the above stats to back up your point of view. 

My take on these stats, bearing in mind that we haven't completed this season, is that there are similarities.  

I, therefore, put it to the gentle people of the Jury that the evidence suggests LJ is no worse/no better than Alan Dicks.

Unfortunately, I am currently unable to provide further evidence as to what happened years later in AD's regime. If LJ is similar and OTIB posters are correct,  it is obvious that AD was sacked shortly after the 68-69 season

[spudski]

41 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

I believe that spud's OP last night was, more than anything else, about shoring up and surrounding with sand bags his own reputation - who can forget his scorn for SC 12 months ago, and enthusiasm for "intelligent" football people like LJ, and SO'D. 

What the hell are you on about JD? Reputation? The reason I scorned SC was because of what he was doing behind the scenes. I don't give a stuff what people think of me on a forum. I've made it very clear, but some like yourself, seem to get great delight in doing 'you said this, you said that' moments...and trying to get 'brownie points'. 

 I support what is happening at the Club right now. Whether that's LJ or any other manager that was doing the right thing. across the whole Club, we are now working together as a unit. I don't support LJ...just because it's LJ. I support him, because I believe he's the right fit for the club at this present moment, having built up a good relationship and team of people working with him. The Club is the healthiest it's been in all the time I've supported it.

Yes i'm gutted at recent results...and it's far from ideal. But I'm very aware of the restrictions and how contracts, negotiations and availability of players are. And how football works. We are trying to do it a different way, for the long term. The downside to this, is that we are going to have runs like we are having now. The upside, is that we have a long term project.

People forget...when you change the manager...you change everything else as well. Coach's, players, Scouts, analysts, management team, a new way of thinking, etc.

It's turmoil...and pretty much why every football team struggles.

LJ isn't a manager...he's a coach, working with a team built by SL and his philosophy. We are no longer a club letting managers come and go with their short term ideas. We aren't going to employ a manager to come in and do the short term fix his way... I thought people would have realised this by now. We have LJ because he fits with the philosophy and has agreed to work within those confines. It's a plan...thank **** we've actually got one now.