Hello from Barnsley

[Guest Old Goat]

Greetings lads and lasses.  Barnsley fan in peace.

Couldn't help posting, partly because it all sounded horribly familiar, but also because I thought you might appreciate a different perspective.  I've read elsewhere that some of your fans think Barnsley fans bear a grudge over Johnson moving to Bristol, but that's not a universal view. I've no axe to grind - if he'd only moved for the money I'd have been disappointed, but Bristol is obviously a special place for him, so good luck to the bloke. 

What you might not know is that we went through a spookily similar run with Johnson last season.  From beginning of October to end of November we lost every game, nine in a row, including an embarrassing FA Cup exit at Altricham.  Bottom of the table and everything looking hopeless. Johnson out and all that.

Then something just seemed to click and we started to win - and kept on winning.  Before we knew it we were climbing the table. Finished up 6th and winning promotion through the play-offs (stopping off en route to collect the JPT).

Johnson left us for Bristol at the start of Feb, so there's two schools of thought round these parts:  one, that he had naff all to do with our success and that it was all down to the the backroom staff; or two, that Johnson had put down some good foundations and set us firmly on the road to success before he moved on.  Personally I think the truth lies somewhere in between, but I honestly don't think we'd be back in the Championship now if it wasn't for Johnson's influence. Not all Tykes fans are quite so charitable, mind, but each to his own...

Anyway, I hope this gives some of you a ray of hope. I can see that 86% of forum voters want Lee out, but I have to say Bristol looked pretty good when they came to Oakwell earlier this season, maybe a bit more physical than I expected from a Johnson side, but also playing some good fast-paced football (which didn't surprise me in the least). So you never know, maybe if you can stand the white knuckle ride, he'll turn things round for you too. 

Good luck for the rest of the season. I'll be watching with interest.

Goat

  

[Dr Balls]

Thanks Goat. We are all well aware of your terrible run. It keeps being quoted as to why we need to keep faith with LJ. But to have 2 such terrible runs in consecutive seasons suggests a serious problem with his management ability at the very least. It's not just luck or coincidence. 

However LJ's chance of repeating the run of 6 league wins after a terrible run seems unlikely given the teams we have to play in February. By then we will be bumping along with Rotherham...

Plus Johnson has a load of baggage here. He was marmite as a player with many here suggesting nepotism from his dad and that but for that his number of league appearances would have been a lot lot less. So not straightforward. 

All we are hoping for right now is Championship survival, which given the players we have and the amount spent is truly abysmal.

Good luck to the Tykes. Guess you are going to miss Winnall but still look like a team that can compete at this level. We can't even guess our team from one game to the next right now!

[finbarr_in_z]

40 minutes ago, Old Goat said:

I can see that 86% of forum voters want Lee out, but I have to say Bristol looked pretty good when they came to Oakwell earlier this season,

A sensible, balaced piece. But this always winds me up. I know it shouldn't...........

[Dr Balls]

9 minutes ago, finbarr_in_z said:

A sensible, balaced piece. But this always winds me up. I know it shouldn't...........

Obviously we aren't the only ones who know that there really is only "One Team in Bristol"!!

[Fiale]

8 minutes ago, finbarr_in_z said:

A sensible, balaced piece. But this always winds me up. I know it shouldn't...........

 

How is he too know that Bristol's conference club got promoted so he needs to refer City / Rovers to differentiate between them.

[man in the middle]

look's to be a pattern forming here, If by magic he does turn it around this season could this then not happen again next season? Thanks for the post Goat.

[Xiled]

With reference to the Barnsley bad run in 2015, if it was Johnson's fault that the team lost nine games on the bounce then he should be given the credit for their recovery, unbeaten run and eventual play-off place (although he had obviously joined us before that place was secured).

Blaming Johnson for the defeats but applauding Paul Heckingbottom for their wins is pretty weak although I have seen it written by some Barnsley fans.

[Dr Balls]

9 minutes ago, Xiled said:

With reference to the Barnsley bad run in 2015, if it was Johnson's fault that the team lost nine games on the bounce then he should be given the credit for their recovery, unbeaten run and eventual play-off place (although he had obviously joined us before that place was secured).

Blaming Johnson for the defeats but applauding Paul Heckingbottom for their wins is pretty weak although I have seen it written by some Barnsley fans.

Well Heckingbottom hasn't had a dreadful losing run this season, unlike LJ. That seems to suggest that he probably deserves the most credit for their promotion and continued performances in the Championship. Given the choice right now, I know which one I would want!

[joe jordans teeth]

3 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Well Heckingbottom hasn't had a dreadful losing run this season, unlike LJ. That seems to suggest that he probably deserves the most credit for their promotion and continued performances in the Championship. Given the choice right now, I know which one I would want!

Neither would be the correct answer 

[Dr Balls]

41 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Neither would be the correct answer 

I want suggesting Hecklingbottom for us. I was implying that Barnsley got the better end of the deal and that their fans must be pretty happy right with their manager now, unlike the majority of ours with our Head Coach!

[Inactive user]

2 hours ago, Old Goat said:

Greetings lads and lasses.  Barnsley fan in peace.

Couldn't help posting, partly because it all sounded horribly familiar, but also because I thought you might appreciate a different perspective.  I've read elsewhere that some of your fans think Barnsley fans bear a grudge over Johnson moving to Bristol, but that's not a universal view. I've no axe to grind - if he'd only moved for the money I'd have been disappointed, but Bristol is obviously a special place for him, so good luck to the bloke. 

What you might not know is that we went through a spookily similar run with Johnson last season.  From beginning of October to end of November we lost every game, nine in a row, including an embarrassing FA Cup exit at Altricham.  Bottom of the table and everything looking hopeless. Johnson out and all that.

Then something just seemed to click and we started to win - and kept on winning.  Before we knew it we were climbing the table. Finished up 6th and winning promotion through the play-offs (stopping off en route to collect the JPT).

Johnson left us for Bristol at the start of Feb, so there's two schools of thought round these parts:  one, that he had naff all to do with our success and that it was all down to the the backroom staff; or two, that Johnson had put down some good foundations and set us firmly on the road to success before he moved on.  Personally I think the truth lies somewhere in between, but I honestly don't think we'd be back in the Championship now if it wasn't for Johnson's influence. Not all Tykes fans are quite so charitable, mind, but each to his own...

Anyway, I hope this gives some of you a ray of hope. I can see that 86% of forum voters want Lee out, but I have to say Bristol looked pretty good when they came to Oakwell earlier this season, maybe a bit more physical than I expected from a Johnson side, but also playing some good fast-paced football (which didn't surprise me in the least). So you never know, maybe if you can stand the white knuckle ride, he'll turn things round for you too. 

Good luck for the rest of the season. I'll be watching with interest.

Goat

  

Cheers Goat.  Most of us are expecting a similar turn around here.  I think it will start on Tuesday.

[Unan]

1 hour ago, Rednwhiterob said:

Cheers Goat.  Most of us are expecting a similar turn around here.  I think it will start on Tuesday.

Said nobody

[Dr Balls]

5 hours ago, Rednwhiterob said:

Cheers Goat.  Most of us are expecting a similar turn around here.  I think it will start on Tuesday.

I don't think "Happy Clapper" really covers that comment. You must be kidding that most on here,  or amongst the wider group of City fans even, want that let alone expect it. The majority want LJ gone and the next 2 matches will just serve to strengthen that feeling.

Are you employed by Trump to produce "Alternative Facts"?

The rate LJ is going our stands could end up as empty as the ones at Trump's inauguration!

[ChippenhamRed]

5 hours ago, Rednwhiterob said:

Cheers Goat.  Most of us are expecting a similar turn around here.  I think it will start on Tuesday.

Don't pretend to speak for anyone but yourself unless you have hard evidence to back up your claim that you speak for the majority. You don't.

[Jacki]

Thing is with our run under Johnson is that it's not just the 8 defeats in a row we've had to contend with.  It's 2 wins and 13 defeats in 16 games... we were on a shocking run before our current shocking run! 

We'll see what happens in the next 2 games but surely we'll have to change it soon regardless. I don't think I've ever known a manager at any level survive a diabolical run like we're on now. 

[Jacki]

4 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Don't pretend to speak for anyone but yourself unless you have hard evidence to back up your claim that you speak for the majority. You don't.

I think/hope he's being sarcastic 

[LondonBristolian]

54 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

I don't think "Happy Clapper" really covers that comment. You must be kidding that most on here,  or amongst the wider group of City fans even, want that let alone expect it. The majority want LJ gone and the next 2 matches will just serve to strengthen that feeling.

 

Do you really think most of our fans don't want a massive improvement in form and LJ to turn it around? I would agree most of the fans - myself included - think LJ should go because we do not believe he will turn it around but I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of us would be delighted if LJ did get us winning games and we surged up the table. Why wouldn't we be? We'd be winning games and that's what matters...

[screech]

6 hours ago, Rednwhiterob said:

Cheers Goat.  Most of us are expecting a similar turn around here.  I think it will start on Tuesday.

That's sort of half true, but I was expecting a turnaround of results before the Reading game, by Cardiff I knew he was totally incompetent and accepted I was wrong to believe he was capable of doing it.

Wasted countless games losing to teams in a similar league position to us with no points to show for it, we now play a tougher set with the light relief of next Saturday we play the worst team in the league, when we beat them we will be praising him as the second coming.

By not getting rid when it was obvious he is out of his depth we have stupidly given the next manager nothing to play with because the transfer window will be gone and he will be stuck with whatever mess we have now. My only positive is that the players the next manager has at his disposal when set up and managed correctly is easily a mid table team.

You are completely delusional that most are still with Lee Johnson.

[samo II]

Thank you, @Old Goat- it's nice to hear an opinion from our friends in South Yorkshire that acknowledges that LJ may have at least had some influence on setting up things at Barnsley that have contributed to your last 12 months of success; many of your cohorts seems to subscribe to the position he did naff all, which I think is a touch unfair.

However, the concern for us is that despite significant investment and after a year of being in charge of the coaching side of the club, now is when our form has dipped, not earlier in the season when the changes were fresh/being made.  Unlike yourselves last year, the sort of winning run you experienced we now need simply to avoid the drop, and signs are not good that we are setting up to achieve that.

Obviously, I hope all the aforementioned signs are wrong, and we come out all guns blazing at home to Wednesday, and begin a purple patch that puts us free and clear of the drop zone with weeks to spare, but I'm skeptical, if not downright cynical about that happening.

What I wouldn't rule out is LJ finally leaving after another couple of poor results, and the squad and structure he has clearly been helping put in place (training methods, the youth 'pathway' etc) being part of the foundations on which a successful side could be built.  Part of me wonders if he'd not make a better Chief Exec than manager, based off what I've seen from him.

But thanks again for the balanced assessment, and while some here seem to have taken against the Tykes for reasons I'm not sure of; other than against us (and definitely when you play teams near us in the table) I hope you keep on having a good season, as would rather you than Wednesday or Leeds or Reading going up via the playoffs.  

Good luck, though I think we're the ones that need it more right now.

[One BCFC]

Want to know why Barnsley have done so well? They have kept the same team as last season and havent made loads of signings.

Whereas LJ has broke up our promotion team and replaced them with nothing better, they had a team spirit and showed signs of improvement at the end of last season. What a shame.

[spudski]

9 hours ago, Old Goat said:

Greetings lads and lasses.  Barnsley fan in peace.

Couldn't help posting, partly because it all sounded horribly familiar, but also because I thought you might appreciate a different perspective.  I've read elsewhere that some of your fans think Barnsley fans bear a grudge over Johnson moving to Bristol, but that's not a universal view. I've no axe to grind - if he'd only moved for the money I'd have been disappointed, but Bristol is obviously a special place for him, so good luck to the bloke. 

What you might not know is that we went through a spookily similar run with Johnson last season.  From beginning of October to end of November we lost every game, nine in a row, including an embarrassing FA Cup exit at Altricham.  Bottom of the table and everything looking hopeless. Johnson out and all that.

Then something just seemed to click and we started to win - and kept on winning.  Before we knew it we were climbing the table. Finished up 6th and winning promotion through the play-offs (stopping off en route to collect the JPT).

Johnson left us for Bristol at the start of Feb, so there's two schools of thought round these parts:  one, that he had naff all to do with our success and that it was all down to the the backroom staff; or two, that Johnson had put down some good foundations and set us firmly on the road to success before he moved on.  Personally I think the truth lies somewhere in between, but I honestly don't think we'd be back in the Championship now if it wasn't for Johnson's influence. Not all Tykes fans are quite so charitable, mind, but each to his own...

Anyway, I hope this gives some of you a ray of hope. I can see that 86% of forum voters want Lee out, but I have to say Bristol looked pretty good when they came to Oakwell earlier this season, maybe a bit more physical than I expected from a Johnson side, but also playing some good fast-paced football (which didn't surprise me in the least). So you never know, maybe if you can stand the white knuckle ride, he'll turn things round for you too. 

Good luck for the rest of the season. I'll be watching with interest.

Goat

  

Nice to hear a balanced view.

Making the foundations and making changes can sometimes mean taking one step back, to get two steps forwards.

I understand fans frustrations, as we can see do the Club, but I'm glad they are sticking with a manager and bucking the trend of sacking. Not because it's LJ...but because we now have a coach and team around him, all doing the right thing to get this club going forward.

With the backing LJ is getting, he won't have any excuses not to at least get us established for a season or two in this division.

I'm looking forward to seeing him turn it around and develop a decent side.

It's been a horrible past few months, but I'm excited by the players we've brought in recently and the quality of players that are now interested in playing for us.

Hopefully a couple more signings this week, and we can start competing and getting results again.

Definitely a white knuckle ride so far...but I'd rather have that, than a stop, start one again.

I have my doubts as to whether LJ is the manager to take us into a top 6 side, be nice if he could...would love us to become a club where we find a manager that stays around for a while developing all the time, but imo, I can see him being that man. However I would like some stability...and if we can stay up and keep getting stronger and establish a couple more years foundation in this league, then kick on to a newer level in it.

Biggest problem any manager has in this league is patience from fans and owners. So many big clubs have been in this league for years...all doing the same thing. Fans moaning every season because it hasn't been the one they've gone up in. All vying for 3 places.

Cue vitriol from the same ol faces...:laugh:

 

[ChippenhamRed]

2 minutes ago, BA14 RED said:

Want to know why Barnsley have done so well? They have kept the same team as last season and havent made loads of signings.

Whereas LJ has broke up our promotion team and replaced them with nothing better, they had a team spirit and showed signs of improvement at the end of last season. What a shame.

Are you suggesting we shouldn't have signed anyone in the summer? Nonsense. That went really well in 2015 didn't it. The squad needed enhancing.

The promotion team didn't have Tomlin, Abraham or Magnusson for starters. But the majority of that team are still here and some of them - perhaps most notably Freeman - haven't made the step up as we might have expected.

Man for man this squad of players is superior to the one that got promoted. Johnson's failing is that he hasn't got the best from them.

[CotswoldRed]

9 hours ago, Old Goat said:

Greetings lads and lasses.  Barnsley fan in peace.

Couldn't help posting, partly because it all sounded horribly familiar, but also because I thought you might appreciate a different perspective.  I've read elsewhere that some of your fans think Barnsley fans bear a grudge over Johnson moving to Bristol, but that's not a universal view. I've no axe to grind - if he'd only moved for the money I'd have been disappointed, but Bristol is obviously a special place for him, so good luck to the bloke. 

What you might not know is that we went through a spookily similar run with Johnson last season.  From beginning of October to end of November we lost every game, nine in a row, including an embarrassing FA Cup exit at Altricham.  Bottom of the table and everything looking hopeless. Johnson out and all that.

Then something just seemed to click and we started to win - and kept on winning.  Before we knew it we were climbing the table. Finished up 6th and winning promotion through the play-offs (stopping off en route to collect the JPT).

Johnson left us for Bristol at the start of Feb, so there's two schools of thought round these parts:  one, that he had naff all to do with our success and that it was all down to the the backroom staff; or two, that Johnson had put down some good foundations and set us firmly on the road to success before he moved on.  Personally I think the truth lies somewhere in between, but I honestly don't think we'd be back in the Championship now if it wasn't for Johnson's influence. Not all Tykes fans are quite so charitable, mind, but each to his own...

Anyway, I hope this gives some of you a ray of hope. I can see that 86% of forum voters want Lee out, but I have to say Bristol looked pretty good when they came to Oakwell earlier this season, maybe a bit more physical than I expected from a Johnson side, but also playing some good fast-paced football (which didn't surprise me in the least). So you never know, maybe if you can stand the white knuckle ride, he'll turn things round for you too. 

Good luck for the rest of the season. I'll be watching with interest.

Goat

  

Was LJ bereft of an apparent philosophy, constantly chopping and changing, sounding like a soundbite machine and at the end of a multi-million pound shopping spree when the turnaround occurred?

If so, I hold on to some hope. 

[One BCFC]

7 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Are you suggesting we shouldn't have signed anyone in the summer? Nonsense. That went really well in 2015 didn't it. The squad needed enhancing.

The promotion team didn't have Tomlin, Abraham or Magnusson for starters. But the majority of that team are still here and some of them - perhaps most notably Freeman - haven't made the step up as we might have expected.

Man for man this squad of players is superior to the one that got promoted. Johnson's failing is that he hasn't got the best from them.

Where did I suggest we shouldnt have signed anyone to, only stating Barnsley signed a few and kept their momentum going. The 3 signings mentioned have been good for us, I am simply viewing some as wasted money on players who were already good enough in certain positions and have made players from the squad who I thought played some excellent football at end of last season leave the club.

[sodburyred]

10 hours ago, Xiled said:

With reference to the Barnsley bad run in 2015, if it was Johnson's fault that the team lost nine games on the bounce then he should be given the credit for their recovery, unbeaten run and eventual play-off place (although he had obviously joined us before that place was secured).

Blaming Johnson for the defeats but applauding Paul Heckingbottom for their wins is pretty weak although I have seen it written by some Barnsley fans.

Does that logic not mean that Cotts should be credited with us staying up last season and SOD credited with our double winning season the season before?

[Jacki]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Nice to hear a balanced view.

Making the foundations and making changes can sometimes mean taking one step back, to get two steps forwards.

I understand fans frustrations, as we can see do the Club, but I'm glad they are sticking with a manager and bucking the trend of sacking. Not because it's LJ...but because we now have a coach and team around him, all doing the right thing to get this club going forward.

With the backing LJ is getting, he won't have any excuses not to at least get us established for a season or two in this division.

I'm looking forward to seeing him turn it around and develop a decent side.

It's been a horrible past few months, but I'm excited by the players we've brought in recently and the quality of players that are now interested in playing for us.

Hopefully a couple more signings this week, and we can start competing and getting results again.

Definitely a white knuckle ride so far...but I'd rather have that, than a stop, start one again.

I have my doubts as to whether LJ is the manager to take us into a top 6 side, be nice if he could...would love us to become a club where we find a manager that stays around for a while developing all the time, but imo, I can see him being that man. However I would like some stability...and if we can stay up and keep getting stronger and establish a couple more years foundation in this league, then kick on to a newer level in it.

Biggest problem any manager has in this league is patience from fans and owners. So many big clubs have been in this league for years...all doing the same thing. Fans moaning every season because it hasn't been the one they've gone up in. All vying for 3 places.

Cue vitriol from the same ol faces...:laugh:

 

Spud - I've been reading your posts for a long time and while I haven't posted much over the years I've enjoyed your contributions. You are clearly an intelligent bloke with the club's best interests at heart. 

I admire your stance on Johnson/stability and in an ideal world I'd agree with you. I can see that the club are trying to build something long term, and if that aim was backed up with any kind of results on the pitch (say 15-20 points from the last 16 games, rather than 7),  I certainly wouldn't  be calling for change. 

You talk about staying up and building foundations to thrive in this league in the coming years. You seem to think it highly likely that we will survive this season under LJ - what are you basing that on? I and many others see a team with enough capable individuals to stay up but whose confidence is completely shot.

I'm sure that there are a combination of reasons for that total lack of confidence, many the fault of LJ and some not, but to me we are only going one way under him. I'm very confident that the right new manager (or 'head coach') could get more out of these players. 

How bad would it have to get before your view on LJ was to change? I'm not knocking you, just genuinely interested. 

[spudski]

20 minutes ago, Jacki said:

Spud - I've been reading your posts for a long time and while I haven't posted much over the years I've enjoyed your contributions. You are clearly an intelligent bloke with the club's best interests at heart. 

I admire your stance on Johnson/stability and in an ideal world I'd agree with you. I can see that the club are trying to build something long term, and if that aim was backed up with any kind of results on the pitch (say 15-20 points from the last 16 games, rather than 7),  I certainly wouldn't  be calling for change. 

You talk about staying up and building foundations to thrive in this league in the coming years. You seem to think it highly likely that we will survive this season under LJ - what are you basing that on? I and many others see a team with enough capable individuals to stay up but whose confidence is completely shot.

I'm sure that there are a combination of reasons for that total lack of confidence, many the fault of LJ and some not, but to me we are only going one way under him. I'm very confident that the right new manager (or 'head coach') could get more out of these players. 

How bad would it have to get before your view on LJ was to change? I'm not knocking you, just genuinely interested. 

The obvious problems are individual errors Jacki. It really is the difference at the moment. Yesterday again was a prime example.

I see us playing exactly the same way as many other teams in this league...we just make more individual errors.

We have some decent players for this division. But Matthews, Smith, GoN, FF, Golbourne, Bryan and Tomlin have been massive disappointments this season. That's 7 players that would be first picks with experience at this level, all not performing. A massive problem.

When you have that problem...you are having to play inexperienced players instead....and that leads to the mistakes.

We compete...but we make those fatal errors from Individuals.

Even though we have brought in Wright, Duric, Hegeler, Geifer,and Mags is back fit....it still leaves us with full back weaknesses and midfield.

Any new manager could come in and change 'tactics' or 'formations'....but that still isn't going to solve the problem of individual errors.

Every game, it's individual errors...not LJ's tactics that are killing us.

We need to keep doing the right things, which we are, those experienced players need to gel with the newcomers, and we should in theory keep going.

Any new manager would still have the same problems...I'm not saying LJ is the answer, but I think stability for me, is far better than risking change again.

I'd only get rid, if we are getting adrift. But that would be a complete gamble. Catch 22.

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 hours ago, Jacki said:

I think/hope he's being sarcastic 

Sadly he's not

 

[Xiled]

1 hour ago, sodburyred said:

Does that logic not mean that Cotts should be credited with us staying up last season and SOD credited with our double winning season the season before?

No, definitely not. Johnson was still at Barnsley when they won six games in a row (just before he joined us).

My point is that most of the Barnsley fans (not @Old Goat) that have posted on OTIB have been quick to remember their losing run but overlook the winning run that followed.

Overreaction is a common theme for Barnsley fans and us.

[CityCiderEd]

36 minutes ago, spudski said:

The obvious problems are individual errors Jacki. It really is the difference at the moment. Yesterday again was a prime example.

I see us playing exactly the same way as many other teams in this league...we just make more individual errors.

We have some decent players for this division. But Matthews, Smith, GoN, FF, Golbourne, Bryan and Tomlin have been massive disappointments this season. That's 7 players that would be first picks with experience at this level, all not performing. A massive problem.

When you have that problem...you are having to play inexperienced players instead....and that leads to the mistakes.

We compete...but we make those fatal errors from Individuals.

Even though we have brought in Wright, Duric, Hegeler, Geifer,and Mags is back fit....it still leaves us with full back weaknesses and midfield.

Any new manager could come in and change 'tactics' or 'formations'....but that still isn't going to solve the problem of individual errors.

Every game, it's individual errors...not LJ's tactics that are killing us.

We need to keep doing the right things, which we are, those experienced players need to gel with the newcomers, and we should in theory keep going.

Any new manager would still have the same problems...I'm not saying LJ is the answer, but I think stability for me, is far better than risking change again.

I'd only get rid, if we are getting adrift. But that would be a complete gamble. Catch 22.

Whilst I agree that individual errors is a big part of our current malaise I have to disagree regarding LJ''s tactics. Over the last couple of months I think we have gone backwards in terms of progress. We play with very little width and although we have plenty of possession teams just let us keep the ball in areas that don't hurt them. I and most of the blokes I go with are now at the stage where we feel that it is a job that came too early for LJ.We seem bereft of confidence and that is surely down to the manager. Surely you must think that with this squad we have now a more settled side would have been sorted out but we still are chopping and changing every game and that isn't right at this stage of the season. 

 

[Major Isewater]

34 minutes ago, spudski said:

The obvious problems are individual errors Jacki. It really is the difference at the moment. Yesterday again was a prime example.

I see us playing exactly the same way as many other teams in this league...we just make more individual errors.

We have some decent players for this division. But Matthews, Smith, GoN, FF, Golbourne, Bryan and Tomlin have been massive disappointments this season. That's 7 players that would be first picks with experience at this level, all not performing. A massive problem.

When you have that problem...you are having to play inexperienced players instead....and that leads to the mistakes.

We compete...but we make those fatal errors from Individuals.

Even though we have brought in Wright, Duric, Hegeler, Geifer,and Mags is back fit....it still leaves us with full back weaknesses and midfield.

Any new manager could come in and change 'tactics' or 'formations'....but that still isn't going to solve the problem of individual errors.

Every game, it's individual errors...not LJ's tactics that are killing us.

We need to keep doing the right things, which we are, those experienced players need to gel with the newcomers, and we should in theory keep going.

Any new manager would still have the same problems...I'm not saying LJ is the answer, but I think stability for me, is far better than risking change again.

I'd only get rid, if we are getting adrift. But that would be a complete gamble. Catch 22.

It would seem to me that many of these individual errors are bought about because the players are unsure of where they should be or what they should be doing , surely that is down to the coaching ?

[glastonred]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

Nice to hear a balanced view.

Making the foundations and making changes can sometimes mean taking one step back, to get two steps forwards.

I understand fans frustrations, as we can see do the Club, but I'm glad they are sticking with a manager and bucking the trend of sacking. Not because it's LJ...but because we now have a coach and team around him, all doing the right thing to get this club going forward.

With the backing LJ is getting, he won't have any excuses not to at least get us established for a season or two in this division.

I'm looking forward to seeing him turn it around and develop a decent side.

It's been a horrible past few months, but I'm excited by the players we've brought in recently and the quality of players that are now interested in playing for us.

Hopefully a couple more signings this week, and we can start competing and getting results again.

Definitely a white knuckle ride so far...but I'd rather have that, than a stop, start one again.

I have my doubts as to whether LJ is the manager to take us into a top 6 side, be nice if he could...would love us to become a club where we find a manager that stays around for a while developing all the time, but imo, I can see him being that man. However I would like some stability...and if we can stay up and keep getting stronger and establish a couple more years foundation in this league, then kick on to a newer level in it.

Biggest problem any manager has in this league is patience from fans and owners. So many big clubs have been in this league for years...all doing the same thing. Fans moaning every season because it hasn't been the one they've gone up in. All vying for 3 places.

Cue vitriol from the same ol faces...:laugh:

 

As someone who is definitely in the Johnson to stay camp Spudski has more or less summed up my own take on how things stand. I firmly believe in loyalty, and look forward to City and Johnson turning things around, starting Tuesday.

[Olé]

13 hours ago, Old Goat said:

I have to say Bristol looked pretty good when they came to Oakwell earlier this season, maybe a bit more physical than I expected from a Johnson side, but also playing some good fast-paced football (which didn't surprise me in the least). 

Great post - but on a point of order, the game at Oakwell was one of our better performances of the past three months, still poor in many respects against what we had been built up earlier in the season to expect, but don't want you to think you saw the LJ football this team has been producing the majority of the time since, it has been far far worse in other matches.

As such, important question that I'm not sure I've picked up from Barnsley fans - on your run of defeats @Old Goat did your performances trend up or down towards the end of the run (i.e. were you steadily improving). I would assume you would be, to then produce the turnaround you did. It's a feature of our run that it's the opposite, we have been getting consistently worse.

More wheels keep falling off every week.

BTW you're right about the physical bit too, I remember thinking myself we were also unusually physical up there - there was a bit of niggle, I don't know if LJ really got them up for it because it was his old team, but again, please don't think that's how we play either, god knows I wish we got stuck in a bit or pressed upfield like we did at Oakwell, we don't do that either anymore.

[Olé]

21 minutes ago, Xiled said:

Overreaction is a common theme for Barnsley fans and us.

Weird that overreaction appears to have affected us both. I can't think what inexplicable link there is between two apparently different clubs in different parts of the country and in previously different divisions. 

Or just maybe, every football fan in the land would react the exact same way too. I'm sick and tired of City fans who always want to imply their own supporters are disproportionately thin-skinned, knee-jerk or nasty.

It's just not true or specific to City. I don't always agree with what my fellow fans say or do, I doubt anyone does, but it's never this source of smugness it seems to be for some virtue signalling they're better than others.

[CotswoldRed]

Just now, Olé said:

Weird that overreaction appears to have affected us both. I can't think what inexplicable link there is between two apparently different clubs in different parts of the country and in previously different divisions. 

Or just maybe, every football fan in the land would react the exact same way too. I'm sick and tired of City fans who always want to imply their own supporters are disproportionately thin-skinned, knee-jerk or nasty.

It's just not true or specific to City. I don't always agree with what my fellow fans say or do, I doubt anyone does, but it's never this source of smugness it seems to be for some virtue signalling they're better than others.

They obviously think that successful or much larger clubs would be as tepid as our lot in such a situation. That's probably what got them there. 

[RobintheRed Red]

12 hours ago, Old Goat said:

Greetings lads and lasses.  Barnsley fan in peace.

Couldn't help posting, partly because it all sounded horribly familiar, but also because I thought you might appreciate a different perspective.  I've read elsewhere that some of your fans think Barnsley fans bear a grudge over Johnson moving to Bristol, but that's not a universal view. I've no axe to grind - if he'd only moved for the money I'd have been disappointed, but Bristol is obviously a special place for him, so good luck to the bloke. 

What you might not know is that we went through a spookily similar run with Johnson last season.  From beginning of October to end of November we lost every game, nine in a row, including an embarrassing FA Cup exit at Altricham.  Bottom of the table and everything looking hopeless. Johnson out and all that.

Then something just seemed to click and we started to win - and kept on winning.  Before we knew it we were climbing the table. Finished up 6th and winning promotion through the play-offs (stopping off en route to collect the JPT).

Johnson left us for Bristol at the start of Feb, so there's two schools of thought round these parts:  one, that he had naff all to do with our success and that it was all down to the the backroom staff; or two, that Johnson had put down some good foundations and set us firmly on the road to success before he moved on.  Personally I think the truth lies somewhere in between, but I honestly don't think we'd be back in the Championship now if it wasn't for Johnson's influence. Not all Tykes fans are quite so charitable, mind, but each to his own...

Anyway, I hope this gives some of you a ray of hope. I can see that 86% of forum voters want Lee out, but I have to say Bristol looked pretty good when they came to Oakwell earlier this season, maybe a bit more physical than I expected from a Johnson side, but also playing some good fast-paced football (which didn't surprise me in the least). So you never know, maybe if you can stand the white knuckle ride, he'll turn things round for you too. 

Good luck for the rest of the season. I'll be watching with interest.

Goat

  

your savioyr was Heckingbottam not johnson

[Olé]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

We compete...but we make those fatal errors from Individuals.

Any new manager could come in and change 'tactics' or 'formations'....but that still isn't going to solve the problem of individual errors.

Every game, it's individual errors...not LJ's tactics that are killing us.

@spudski... here we go again mate, sorry.

You keep saying this is about mistakes, and of course you're absolutely right about these issues themselves, but I can't personally accept the way you keep excusing everything that is wrong with the team as the product of individual mistakes. I know you'll say you do pick up on some weaknesses in LJ's approach, but your main line now is this point about results being entirely driven by those mistakes.

Yes of course mistakes can cost games and that is why analysts pour over games on Match of The Day to highlight mistakes getting punished, but the reason I struggle with this as your explanation, is that in all the football I watch, it is pretty much the occasional European or international game, where you don't see a single mistake. I don't think I've ever seen a Premiership game without several mistakes.

I certainly don't remember a City team that didn't make mistakes, as you will well know we made mistakes in our near 100-point double winning season, and we certainly made plenty of them in the run to the Championship play off final. You're right we are making fatal mistakes but teams do not play perfect games, they make mistakes, the answer is to be good enough to play through those mistakes.

Where I fundamentally differ from you is I am not seeing football that is doing anywhere near enough to play through the mistakes and win football games. We are a team that is beaten by mistakes because we do so little with our own football (you and I will agree on poor movement) to put a match out of reach. Forest is a case in point, a mistake cost us a game because we offered absolutely zero ourselves.

Perhaps I'm mis-reading you, but you've made this point a few times recently and to me at least it reads very clearly like you are saying, stop making mistakes and we'll be a good team. I would respectfully challenge that and say you're using these mistakes as an easy way to excuse away the fact we are not up to it anyway. If you told me that to win games we'd have to make zero mistakes, I'd give up now 

[Frenchay Red]

Oops what I was trying to do didn't work!

 

Bit like LJ!

[Chivs]

42 minutes ago, CityCiderEd said:

Whilst I agree that individual errors is a big part of our current malaise I have to disagree regarding LJ''s tactics. Over the last couple of months I think we have gone backwards in terms of progress. We play with very little width and although we have plenty of possession teams just let us keep the ball in areas that don't hurt them. I and most of the blokes I go with are now at the stage where we feel that it is a job that came too early for LJ.We seem bereft of confidence and that is surely down to the manager. Surely you must think that with this squad we have now a more settled side would have been sorted out but we still are chopping and changing every game and that isn't right at this stage of the season. 

 

Ahhhhhhhh!!!! What is this myth that we play with very little width?  What are you watching?  The problem is that we play with too much width and don't play it at all effectively.  Little and Bryan especially are commanded to stay on the wings.  Unfortunately, Little can't cross the ball and Bryan isn't a 'burst pass the last man' type player.

Our biggest problem is not the width but the central midfielders.  Pack can't tackle and has no pace, GoN tackles well but has no pace, Smith tackles well but has lost his legs, Reid can't tackle, doesn't understand football and doesn't know where to play, Tomlin doesn't do tackling or tracking back.  Watch the last 15 minutes of all of our games.  The central midfield disappears.  The 10 yards in front of our box is often bereft of defensive midfielders.  This happened against Reading especially when Brownhill's lack of match fitness showed, and Bryan did his normal 'lose concentration for 10 minutes' act.

Lack of width is not our problem.

[Superjack]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

The obvious problems are individual errors Jacki. It really is the difference at the moment. Yesterday again was a prime example.

I see us playing exactly the same way as many other teams in this league...we just make more individual errors.

We have some decent players for this division. But Matthews, Smith, GoN, FF, Golbourne, Bryan and Tomlin have been massive disappointments this season. That's 7 players that would be first picks with experience at this level, all not performing. A massive problem.

When you have that problem...you are having to play inexperienced players instead....and that leads to the mistakes.

We compete...but we make those fatal errors from Individuals.

Even though we have brought in Wright, Duric, Hegeler, Geifer,and Mags is back fit....it still leaves us with full back weaknesses and midfield.

Any new manager could come in and change 'tactics' or 'formations'....but that still isn't going to solve the problem of individual errors.

Every game, it's individual errors...not LJ's tactics that are killing us.

We need to keep doing the right things, which we are, those experienced players need to gel with the newcomers, and we should in theory keep going.

Any new manager would still have the same problems...I'm not saying LJ is the answer, but I think stability for me, is far better than risking change again.

I'd only get rid, if we are getting adrift. But that would be a complete gamble. Catch 22.

Individual errors are inevitable under Johnson because we continually set up to invite constant pressure. That is down purely to his tactics which are either deliberately negative or nonetheless result in the above.

[pillred]

4 hours ago, Jacki said:

Thing is with our run under Johnson is that it's not just the 8 defeats in a row we've had to contend with.  It's 2 wins and 13 defeats in 16 games... we were on a shocking run before our current shocking run! 

We'll see what happens in the next 2 games but surely we'll have to change it soon regardless. I don't think I've ever known a manager at any level survive a diabolical run like we're on now. 

they haven't!!

[pillred]

2 hours ago, Jacki said:

Spud - I've been reading your posts for a long time and while I haven't posted much over the years I've enjoyed your contributions. You are clearly an intelligent bloke with the club's best interests at heart. 

I admire your stance on Johnson/stability and in an ideal world I'd agree with you. I can see that the club are trying to build something long term, and if that aim was backed up with any kind of results on the pitch (say 15-20 points from the last 16 games, rather than 7),  I certainly wouldn't  be calling for change. 

You talk about staying up and building foundations to thrive in this league in the coming years. You seem to think it highly likely that we will survive this season under LJ - what are you basing that on? I and many others see a team with enough capable individuals to stay up but whose confidence is completely shot.

I'm sure that there are a combination of reasons for that total lack of confidence, many the fault of LJ and some not, but to me we are only going one way under him. I'm very confident that the right new manager (or 'head coach') could get more out of these players. 

How bad would it have to get before your view on LJ was to change? I'm not knocking you, just genuinely interested. 

some peoples blind optimism is bordering on the delusional

[pillred]

53 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

It would seem to me that many of these individual errors are bought about because the players are unsure of where they should be or what they should be doing , surely that is down to the coaching ?

reading the post to me it sounds like even with all the players bought and all the money spent we still don't have a good enough team, that is down to 1 person there can be no other explanation 

[pillred]

58 minutes ago, glastonred said:

As someone who is definitely in the Johnson to stay camp Spudski has more or less summed up my own take on how things stand. I firmly believe in loyalty, and look forward to City and Johnson turning things around, starting Tuesday.

I can only assume you must be a masochist!

[The Joker]

1 minute ago, pillred said:

reading the post to me it sounds like even with all the players bought and all the money spent we still don't have a good enough team, that is down to 1 person there can be no other explanation 

Buying the best car in the world does not make a crap driver any good, you need natural ability, sadly our chosen driver has none.

[Jacki]

21 minutes ago, spudski said:

The obvious problems are individual errors Jacki. It really is the difference at the moment. Yesterday again was a prime example.

I see us playing exactly the same way as many other teams in this league...we just make more individual errors.

We have some decent players for this division. But Matthews, Smith, GoN, FF, Golbourne, Bryan and Tomlin have been massive disappointments this season. That's 7 players that would be first picks with experience at this level, all not performing. A massive problem.

When you have that problem...you are having to play inexperienced players instead....and that leads to the mistakes.

We compete...but we make those fatal errors from Individuals.

Even though we have brought in Wright, Duric, Hegeler, Geifer,and Mags is back fit....it still leaves us with full back weaknesses and midfield.

Any new manager could come in and change 'tactics' or 'formations'....but that still isn't going to solve the problem of individual errors.

Every game, it's individual errors...not LJ's tactics that are killing us.

We need to keep doing the right things, which we are, those experienced players need to gel with the newcomers, and we should in theory keep going.

Any new manager would still have the same problems...I'm not saying LJ is the answer, but I think stability for me, is far better than risking change again.

I'd only get rid, if we are getting adrift. But that would be a complete gamble. Catch 22.

I agree re the individual errors to a point, we have made far too many. Although several of the goals v Reading and Cardiff in particular came from the whole defence allowing the attacker way too much time to pick their spot and score. And you're also dead right about those 7 players being disappointments, don't think anyone would disagree with that and it's clearly a huge issue. 

Where I think we disagree is on tactics and a way of playing. We are slow and ponderous on the ball and have been really all season. Now we have Djuric the temptation is there to bang it long - we did it time after time v Cardiff, and reportedly against Forest too. Is LJ telling the players to do that? I really don't know.  I don't think he has a clue what his best team or formation is either, and have felt that way all season. 

The overriding things for me about our 'way of playing' are that we are so slow on the break, and we totally lack width.  Other teams spring forward with pace.... we are pedestrian and easy to defend against in comparison. Again against Cardiff, we hardly got a cross into the box all game. On the rare occasions when we did, Djuric and Tammy looked dangerous. Why don't we get it wide, at pace, when on the attack?  If the answer is that we lack the players to do so, why haven't we signed anyone who can play that way? We just haven't done it all season, even when winning games. Freeman was as close as we've had to someone giving us that kind of outlet and clearly he is on his way. He clearly needs replacing  

I think a lot of the errors stem from a lack of confidence. How much of that is down to the fact that the players have no idea what the team and formation is week after week? I don't think anyone knows the answer for sure but it surely can't help. 

I hear what you say about the huge risk involved in changing manager. Of course, recruitment is always a risk.  But for me it's a lot more of a risk now to stick with the one we have. 13 defeats in 16 games - enough is enough. 

[Guest #TeamsLikeBarnsley]

5 hours ago, BA14 RED said:

Want to know why Barnsley have done so well? They have kept the same team as last season and havent made loads of signings.

Whereas LJ has broke up our promotion team and replaced them with nothing better, they had a team spirit and showed signs of improvement at the end of last season. What a shame.

That's incorrect. 

 

Last season's most used matchday 18: Davies, Wabara, Roberts, Mawson, G.Williams, Isgrove, Brownhill, Hourihane, Hammill, Watkins, Winnall. Townsend, Nyatanga, Bree, Scowen, White, Fletcher, Toney.

 

Yesterdays 18: Davies, Jones, Roberts, MacDonald, White, Kent, James, Scowen, Watkins, Armstrong, Bradshaw. Townsend, Evans, Jackson, Moncur, R.Williams, Hammill, Payne.

 

Players remaining from the final match of last season: Davies, White, Roberts, Scowen, Watkins, Hammill, Townsend.

 

So 11 of yesterdays 18 weren't here last season. And we've the likes of D'Almeida, Yiadom and Kay currently unavailable who were signed this season as well as Mowatt who couldn't play yesterday, plus I imagine another two or three lads through the door before deadline day. 

 

So no, I don't think you can say we've kept the same team and made few signings. 

 

Our recruitment has been immense, just look at the names above. How many have you heard of? Incredible scouting etc. But the key to how well we're doing is the bloke running the show, Paul Heckingbottom. 

 

 

Agree with the OP as well, in that LJ deserves as much credit for turning our form around last season as he deserves stick for the awful form. His spell as manager here was short and rather forgettable. He arrived with us lower middle in L1 and left with us mid table L1. Won games, lost a similar amount, drew a few. Took us to a cup final before he was offered his dream job and took it. The end. 

 

His spell at your place looks infinitely worse and I can't say I'm surprised you've turned on him. I expected him to do very well there eventually, but I did see this season as one of transition. For both clubs. On this forum in the summer I predicted we'd both finish lower mid table. Many laughed. 

 

I hope you beat Wednesday this week. Good luck.

[spudski]

2 hours ago, Olé said:

@spudski... here we go again mate, sorry.

You keep saying this is about mistakes, and of course you're absolutely right about these issues themselves, but I can't personally accept the way you keep excusing everything that is wrong with the team as the product of individual mistakes. I know you'll say you do pick up on some weaknesses in LJ's approach, but your main line now is this point about results being entirely driven by those mistakes.

Yes of course mistakes can cost games and that is why analysts pour over games on Match of The Day to highlight mistakes getting punished, but the reason I struggle with this as your explanation, is that in all the football I watch, it is pretty much the occasional European or international game, where you don't see a single mistake. I don't think I've ever seen a Premiership game without several mistakes.

I certainly don't remember a City team that didn't make mistakes, as you will well know we made mistakes in our near 100-point double winning season, and we certainly made plenty of them in the run to the Championship play off final. You're right we are making fatal mistakes but teams do not play perfect games, they make mistakes, the answer is to be good enough to play through those mistakes.

Where I fundamentally differ from you is I am not seeing football that is doing anywhere near enough to play through the mistakes and win football games. We are a team that is beaten by mistakes because we do so little with our own football (you and I will agree on poor movement) to put a match out of reach. Forest is a case in point, a mistake cost us a game because we offered absolutely zero ourselves.

Perhaps I'm mis-reading you, but you've made this point a few times recently and to me at least it reads very clearly like you are saying, stop making mistakes and we'll be a good team. I would respectfully challenge that and say you're using these mistakes as an easy way to excuse away the fact we are not up to it anyway. If you told me that to win games we'd have to make zero mistakes, I'd give up now 

I've quoted in numerous other topics, about how many injuries and off form key players we've had this season fella...it's not JUST Individual mistakes,

I look at our squad now, and if everyone was firing and playing to their ability and not injured, then I don't think we'd be in half as much trouble.

First picks of any of these key players, playing injury free, to ability and fit would make a huge difference...but it hasn't been the case, unlike last season.

----------------------------------------------------------------FF/Geifer------------------------------------------------------------------

Matthews------------------------------Flint----------------------------------------Wright/Magners-----------------------Golbourne

-------------------------------------------------------------GoN/Hegeler--------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------Smith-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bryan------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------Tomlin--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------Tammy--------------------------------------Duric----------------------------------------------------

If you look at that team and take away Matthews, FF, Golbourne, GoN, Smith, Tomlin and Bryan....it doesn't leave you with many options...hence the tinkering, or making mend.

We are desperate for two full backs and another experienced midfielder imo.

 

[REDOXO]

14 hours ago, Rednwhiterob said:

Cheers Goat.  Most of us are expecting a similar turn around here.  I think it will start on Tuesday.

Please tell me this is irony!?

[ontariored]

4 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

It would seem to me that many of these individual errors are bought about because the players are unsure of where they should be or what they should be doing , surely that is down to the coaching ?

or leadership on the field....

[RedRock]

I'm hoping, beyond hope, LJ turns things around on Tuesday. 

Can I see it happening? No. 

We have a squad  of individuals trying to adopt a brand of modern English football that is beyond the ability of most to perform  - at least to Championship standard. The result is a mess. This non-contact, pressing football style - which I assume we're trying to play - requires massive energy inputs and highly advanced teamwork. We have key players unsuited to that style and a collection of individuals playing as strangers, not a team. No wonder we're struggling. 

Sadly, just don't think we now have the players that will do what's needed and scrap together to fight our way out of the situation. We're a soft touch physically and mentally and other teams know it. 

Let's hope I'm wrong. If not, it ain't just the manager who'll need to go.

Back to basics - play to individual and team strengths. Play winners and play to win. If that's 'old style', fine by me. Had enough of the modern version as exemplified by us and the national team. 

 

 

 

[Lanterne Rouge]

2 hours ago, #TeamsLikeBarnsley said:

That's incorrect. 

 

Last season's most used matchday 18: Davies, Wabara, Roberts, Mawson, G.Williams, Isgrove, Brownhill, Hourihane, Hammill, Watkins, Winnall. Townsend, Nyatanga, Bree, Scowen, White, Fletcher, Toney.

 

Yesterdays 18: Davies, Jones, Roberts, MacDonald, White, Kent, James, Scowen, Watkins, Armstrong, Bradshaw. Townsend, Evans, Jackson, Moncur, R.Williams, Hammill, Payne.

 

Players remaining from the final match of last season: Davies, White, Roberts, Scowen, Watkins, Hammill, Townsend.

 

So 11 of yesterdays 18 weren't here last season. And we've the likes of D'Almeida, Yiadom and Kay currently unavailable who were signed this season as well as Mowatt who couldn't play yesterday, plus I imagine another two or three lads through the door before deadline day. 

 

So no, I don't think you can say we've kept the same team and made few signings. 

 

Our recruitment has been immense, just look at the names above. How many have you heard of? Incredible scouting etc. But the key to how well we're doing is the bloke running the show, Paul Heckingbottom. 

 

 

Agree with the OP as well, in that LJ deserves as much credit for turning our form around last season as he deserves stick for the awful form. His spell as manager here was short and rather forgettable. He arrived with us lower middle in L1 and left with us mid table L1. Won games, lost a similar amount, drew a few. Took us to a cup final before he was offered his dream job and took it. The end. 

 

His spell at your place looks infinitely worse and I can't say I'm surprised you've turned on him. I expected him to do very well there eventually, but I did see this season as one of transition. For both clubs. On this forum in the summer I predicted we'd both finish lower mid table. Many laughed. 

 

I hope you beat Wednesday this week. Good luck.

I see no Hourihane in yesterday`s squad. Has he actually gone now or just left out because he`s off before Tuesday?

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

I see no Hourihane in yesterday`s squad. Has he actually gone now or just left out because he`s off before Tuesday?

Gone to Villa

[Lanterne Rouge]

Just now, BobBobSuperBob said:

Gone to Villla

Ah, didn`t realise he had actually left. Any idea how much? Undisclosed I guess.

[BobBobSuperBob]

£1 milllion I think RRH

[Lanterne Rouge]

12 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

£1 milllion I think RRH

I know he only had six months left on his contract but that is a bargain and no mistake.

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

I know he only had six months left on his contract but that is a bargain and no mistake.

Certainly looks like it

i noticed  under the radar , that Barnsley signed Alex Mowatt from Leeds this week

Very talented , surprised Leeds let him leave - a real good signing IMO

 

[Gert Mare]

The difference with Barnsley is that they were in League One. The gulf between League One and the Championship is a big one. I think Heckingbottom probably had a lot to do with the turnaround. LJ has no experience of managing in the Championship and it seems to me that he will just hope it will click like it did at Barnsley. It won't. He looks like a man devoid of ideas and propaganda spiel. I haven't seen us look this doomed since 1981, and even then we managed the odd draw or win!

[cityred exile]

Good  full page  article in  FL paper   on LJ  SL and Barnsley 

[RedM]

@Old GoatI won't quote all of your post but you do say this 

'Then something just seemed to click and we started to win - and kept on winning.  Before we knew it we were climbing the table. Finished up 6th and winning promotion through the play-offs (stopping off en route to collect the JPT).'

Bits and pieces I have read from other Barnsley fans say Lee was stubborn in changing formation/ tactics but only stumbled on success when he was forced to change the team due to injuries, he had to change formation because of this? 

I just want to comment that I don't think we have 'clicked' yet as we haven't through luck or judgement found the right combination of players or formation. We have had injuries and still have, we have been lucky on the whole with suspensions , our discipline is good, probably as we are too nice and don't show much fight. Most bookings seem to be for dissent as we feel decisions have gone against us and Tomlin is quite gobby! We have brought players in, and shipped players out with one frozen out, we have churned things around and still we haven't hit on a team that looks like it will gel, and it's the last days of January! We used to have a prediction league on here where we would have to guess the team and name the subs, you'd have no chance this season!

As @Olémentions a few posts ago we have been getting worse not better. I'm seeing games being lost not because we are unlucky but because we aren't as good as the opposition now, and this is before we play the huge away games we have lined up in February. Teams we should be matching or bettering frequently have more successful game plans than us if not better players. 

As we sang back at the Burnley fans taunts 'you're nothing special, we lose every week', and it might get sung a few more times yet before we can chose a new song.

 

 

[Guest Phil2012]

Hi everyone, another Barnsley fan in peace.

I lived in Bristol for a while back in the 90's and so have had a passing interest in goings on at City, more so since LJ left us for you.  I'm not 1 of those who slagged LJ off for leaving. As I saw it, he was in League 1 and got the offer to go to a Championship club, with a bigger budget, bigger crowds and that he had a connection with, so it was good luck to the man.

I would say that opinion is still divided on LJ's time at Barnsley.  There is a minority (very vocal as you've seen on here!) who refuse to give him any credit and a majority who give him credit but believe he was lucky to get the Bristol City job. 

At Barnsley, there never seemed any middle ground with LJ.  We were either very good or very very bad. He spoke well in interviews, a likeable bloke, although when results weren't good, a lot of what he said seemed misguided.  He'd protect himself against bad results by talking about the 'project',  about needing 3 transfer windows, about players needing to grow and develop. During the runs of defeats, his thinking seem to get more muddled.  Players started being played out of position, we were constantly swapping formations and making 4 / 5 changes every game.  His substitutions became eccentric: instead of swapping like for like, he would make a substitution that led to 3 or 4 positional changes for other players. 

And the style of play became more conservative.  There were 2 home games in a row (Crewe and Shrewsbury) where the opposition keeper didn't make a save despite us having over 40 shots in those 2 games. Our play  was all in front of the opposition, sideways and backwards passing without anyone breaking beyond the ball. We played with width but only up to a certain part of the pitch. We rarely got genuine width in the final third which meant that we were comfortable to defend against.  Post-match after defeats, LJ would point to the how we dominated possession and how we were in control of the game but we lacked a threat. I always felt we were playing with the handbrake on.  Players opting to complete the safe sideways pass rather than being brave (even in our wins that would happen) 

It was never clear who was in charge of recruitment. LJ would often say he wasn't responsible yet later say he was. Things turned around once we recruited better in January and the major difference was Hammill. Before this, we were playing a very narrow 4-5-1. Hammill came in on trial on the boards recommendation and then later signed (with LJ's approval). That forced the change to 4-4-2, what the fans had been demanding for weeks and suddenly the results changed. The 6 wins in a row included 4 of the bottom 8 teams but the change was startling. Hammill had a point to prove and his directness seemed to inspire the other players to get the ball forward earlier.

Because of this, it is difficult to judge how much of the turnaround was down to LJ learning as a coach or if it was circumstances forcing his hand.  It didn't help LJ, that Heckingbottom took over, continued the momentum but by playing crowd-pleasing football (ie:  more expansive style, concentrating less on dominating possession and more on attacking with pace) .

I feel that LJ took a top 10 side to 24th with a run of defeats and then recovered to 13th with a run of wins. However, he definitely put foundations in place and so contributed greatly to the success we have had since.

At the same time, it was clear that LJ was still learning the ropes in games which you can tend to get away in League 1 but the Championship is a tougher place.

The fact that he has overseen 2 record runs of defeats at 2 successive clubs is strange. Whether he will come through this at City and emerge as a top class coach is anybody's guess.  For many Barnsley fans, we still don't know exactly how to judge his time with us and understand just how much credit he deserves for what has happened since. 

Hope you don't mind me invading your forum and chipping in with my thoughts on his time with us.

For what it's worth, I do hope you pull through, have a good season and finish 1 place behind us!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Phil2012 said:

Hi everyone, another Barnsley fan in peace.

I lived in Bristol for a while back in the 90's and so have had a passing interest in goings on at City, more so since LJ left us for you.  I'm not 1 of those who slagged LJ off for leaving. As I saw it, he was in League 1 and got the offer to go to a Championship club, with a bigger budget, bigger crowds and that he had a connection with, so it was good luck to the man.

I would say that opinion is still divided on LJ's time at Barnsley.  There is a minority (very vocal as you've seen on here!) who refuse to give him any credit and a majority who give him credit but believe he was lucky to get the Bristol City job. 

At Barnsley, there never seemed any middle ground with LJ.  We were either very good or very very bad. He spoke well in interviews, a likeable bloke, although when results weren't good, a lot of what he said seemed misguided.  He'd protect himself against bad results by talking about the 'project',  about needing 3 transfer windows, about players needing to grow and develop. During the runs of defeats, his thinking seem to get more muddled.  Players started being played out of position, we were constantly swapping formations and making 4 / 5 changes every game.  His substitutions became eccentric: instead of swapping like for like, he would make a substitution that led to 3 or 4 positional changes for other players. 

And the style of play became more conservative.  There were 2 home games in a row (Crewe and Shrewsbury) where the opposition keeper didn't make a save despite us having over 40 shots in those 2 games.

Our play  was all in front of the opposition, sideways and backwards passing without anyone breaking beyond the ball. We played with width but only up to a certain part of the pitch. We rarely got genuine width in the final third which meant that we were comfortable to defend against. 

Post-match after defeats, LJ would point to the how we dominated possession and how we were in control of the game but we lacked a threat.

I always felt we were playing with the handbrake on. 

Players opting to complete the safe sideways pass rather than being brave (even in our wins that would happen) 

It was never clear who was in charge of recruitment. LJ would often say he wasn't responsible yet later say he was.

Things turned around once we recruited better in January and the major difference was Hammill. Before this, we were playing a very narrow 4-5-1. Hammill came in on trial on the boards recommendation and then later signed (with LJ's approval). That forced the change to 4-4-2, what the fans had been demanding for weeks and suddenly the results changed. The 6 wins in a row included 4 of the bottom 8 teams but the change was startling. Hammill had a point to prove and his directness seemed to inspire the other players to get the ball forward earlier.

Because of this, it is difficult to judge how much of the turnaround was down to LJ learning as a coach or if it was circumstances forcing his hand.  It didn't help LJ, that Heckingbottom took over, continued the momentum but by playing crowd-pleasing football (ie:  more expansive style, concentrating less on dominating possession and more on attacking with pace) .

I feel that LJ took a top 10 side to 24th with a run of defeats and then recovered to 13th with a run of wins. However, he definitely put foundations in place and so contributed greatly to the success we have had since.

At the same time, it was clear that LJ was still learning the ropes in games which you can tend to get away in League 1 but the Championship is a tougher place.

The fact that he has overseen 2 record runs of defeats at 2 successive clubs is strange. Whether he will come through this at City and emerge as a top class coach is anybody's guess.  For many Barnsley fans, we still don't know exactly how to judge his time with us and understand just how much credit he deserves for what has happened since. 

Hope you don't mind me invading your forum and chipping in with my thoughts on his time with us.

For what it's worth, I do hope you pull through, have a good season and finish 1 place behind us!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Welcome Phil

Well that's one good thing at least (highlighted paras) - at least he has changed  

 

Our run is down to bad luck , refereeing decisions and individual mistakes 

 

ps - Alex Mowatt - V good signing 

[Super]

Nothing against Barnsley fans on here but where were they at the start of the season when we were doing well?

[CotswoldRed]

1 hour ago, Phil2012 said:

Hi everyone, another Barnsley fan in peace.

I lived in Bristol for a while back in the 90's and so have had a passing interest in goings on at City, more so since LJ left us for you.  I'm not 1 of those who slagged LJ off for leaving. As I saw it, he was in League 1 and got the offer to go to a Championship club, with a bigger budget, bigger crowds and that he had a connection with, so it was good luck to the man.

I would say that opinion is still divided on LJ's time at Barnsley.  There is a minority (very vocal as you've seen on here!) who refuse to give him any credit and a majority who give him credit but believe he was lucky to get the Bristol City job. 

At Barnsley, there never seemed any middle ground with LJ.  We were either very good or very very bad. He spoke well in interviews, a likeable bloke, although when results weren't good, a lot of what he said seemed misguided.  He'd protect himself against bad results by talking about the 'project',  about needing 3 transfer windows, about players needing to grow and develop. During the runs of defeats, his thinking seem to get more muddled.  Players started being played out of position, we were constantly swapping formations and making 4 / 5 changes every game.  His substitutions became eccentric: instead of swapping like for like, he would make a substitution that led to 3 or 4 positional changes for other players. 

And the style of play became more conservative.  There were 2 home games in a row (Crewe and Shrewsbury) where the opposition keeper didn't make a save despite us having over 40 shots in those 2 games. Our play  was all in front of the opposition, sideways and backwards passing without anyone breaking beyond the ball. We played with width but only up to a certain part of the pitch. We rarely got genuine width in the final third which meant that we were comfortable to defend against.  Post-match after defeats, LJ would point to the how we dominated possession and how we were in control of the game but we lacked a threat. I always felt we were playing with the handbrake on.  Players opting to complete the safe sideways pass rather than being brave (even in our wins that would happen) 

It was never clear who was in charge of recruitment. LJ would often say he wasn't responsible yet later say he was. Things turned around once we recruited better in January and the major difference was Hammill. Before this, we were playing a very narrow 4-5-1. Hammill came in on trial on the boards recommendation and then later signed (with LJ's approval). That forced the change to 4-4-2, what the fans had been demanding for weeks and suddenly the results changed. The 6 wins in a row included 4 of the bottom 8 teams but the change was startling. Hammill had a point to prove and his directness seemed to inspire the other players to get the ball forward earlier.

Because of this, it is difficult to judge how much of the turnaround was down to LJ learning as a coach or if it was circumstances forcing his hand.  It didn't help LJ, that Heckingbottom took over, continued the momentum but by playing crowd-pleasing football (ie:  more expansive style, concentrating less on dominating possession and more on attacking with pace) .

I feel that LJ took a top 10 side to 24th with a run of defeats and then recovered to 13th with a run of wins. However, he definitely put foundations in place and so contributed greatly to the success we have had since.

At the same time, it was clear that LJ was still learning the ropes in games which you can tend to get away in League 1 but the Championship is a tougher place.

The fact that he has overseen 2 record runs of defeats at 2 successive clubs is strange. Whether he will come through this at City and emerge as a top class coach is anybody's guess.  For many Barnsley fans, we still don't know exactly how to judge his time with us and understand just how much credit he deserves for what has happened since. 

Hope you don't mind me invading your forum and chipping in with my thoughts on his time with us.

For what it's worth, I do hope you pull through, have a good season and finish 1 place behind us!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Couldn't be a more familiar story. 

[Olé]

2 hours ago, Phil2012 said:

There were 2 home games in a row (Crewe and Shrewsbury) where the opposition keeper didn't make a save despite us having over 40 shots in those 2 games. Our play was all in front of the opposition

Wow. Thank god I'm not going mad. I've been saying for weeks that the stat line about our number of shots (3rd highest in the division) is ridiculous because I'm not seeing it and for me we're not creating much that is clear cut, most of it is speculative low probability stuff from outside the box. Amazing that you've actually had a prior experience of that stat and the opposition keeper's work not tallying. Can't remember when an opposition keeper was last MOTM either.

Pretty much everything else you posted sounds almost identical to how I see it for us too. Scarily so in places - half think you're a City fan on a wide up. Your conclusion suggests the signing of a direct player will drive the team forward and out of their tactical funk. LJ is certainly adopting a 'keep signing players until it works' approach, so hopefully we find the one that helps the team win consistently again, before we've had to actually buy every single player in Europe. 

[Guest Phil2012]

2 hours ago, Olé said:

Wow. Thank god I'm not going mad. I've been saying for weeks that the stat line about our number of shots (3rd highest in the division) is ridiculous because I'm not seeing it and for me we're not creating much that is clear cut, most of it is speculative low probability stuff from outside the box. Amazing that you've actually had a prior experience of that stat and the opposition keeper's work not tallying. Can't remember when an opposition keeper was last MOTM either.

Pretty much everything else you posted sounds almost identical to how I see it for us too. Scarily so in places - half think you're a City fan on a wide up. Your conclusion suggests the signing of a direct player will drive the team forward and out of their tactical funk. LJ is certainly adopting a 'keep signing players until it works' approach, so hopefully we find the one that helps the team win consistently again, before we've had to actually buy every single player in Europe. 

I think that is where a lot of the frustration came from at Barnsley. We would all see the game and then get stats thrown at us post-match that suggested we had seen a very different game. That's fine while winning I guess.

Obviously, I haven't seen any City games for myself, but having seen a lot of questions about his time at Barnsley, I thought it might be worthwhile to put my view across on how it was for us. There is no golden promise that it will turn around like it did for us cos we can't say for certain who and what was responsible for our transformation. In truth, it was probably a number of factors, of which LJ was one. 

It's just my opinion, I certainly haven't come on here to gloat at your current situation as I really hope you turn it around. And I hope I haven't 'upset' anyone by coming on your forum.

I can promise you I'm not a secret City fan on a wind up. I've followed Barnsley for 35 years and although tempted astray a couple of times, you can't really change your team can you!

[AppyDAZE]

4 hours ago, Super said:

Nothing against Barnsley fans on here but where were they at the start of the season when we were doing well?

Weird innit? I certainly could not be arsed to write up something that long for another football club, ex manager or no ex manager.

[Im_over_ere]

6 hours ago, Phil2012 said:

Hi everyone, another Barnsley fan in peace.

I lived in Bristol for a while back in the 90's and so have had a passing interest in goings on at City, more so since LJ left us for you.  I'm not 1 of those who slagged LJ off for leaving. As I saw it, he was in League 1 and got the offer to go to a Championship club, with a bigger budget, bigger crowds and that he had a connection with, so it was good luck to the man.

I would say that opinion is still divided on LJ's time at Barnsley.  There is a minority (very vocal as you've seen on here!) who refuse to give him any credit and a majority who give him credit but believe he was lucky to get the Bristol City job. 

At Barnsley, there never seemed any middle ground with LJ.  We were either very good or very very bad. He spoke well in interviews, a likeable bloke, although when results weren't good, a lot of what he said seemed misguided.  He'd protect himself against bad results by talking about the 'project',  about needing 3 transfer windows, about players needing to grow and develop. During the runs of defeats, his thinking seem to get more muddled.  Players started being played out of position, we were constantly swapping formations and making 4 / 5 changes every game.  His substitutions became eccentric: instead of swapping like for like, he would make a substitution that led to 3 or 4 positional changes for other players. 

And the style of play became more conservative.  There were 2 home games in a row (Crewe and Shrewsbury) where the opposition keeper didn't make a save despite us having over 40 shots in those 2 games. Our play  was all in front of the opposition, sideways and backwards passing without anyone breaking beyond the ball. We played with width but only up to a certain part of the pitch. We rarely got genuine width in the final third which meant that we were comfortable to defend against.  Post-match after defeats, LJ would point to the how we dominated possession and how we were in control of the game but we lacked a threat. I always felt we were playing with the handbrake on.  Players opting to complete the safe sideways pass rather than being brave (even in our wins that would happen) 

It was never clear who was in charge of recruitment. LJ would often say he wasn't responsible yet later say he was. Things turned around once we recruited better in January and the major difference was Hammill. Before this, we were playing a very narrow 4-5-1. Hammill came in on trial on the boards recommendation and then later signed (with LJ's approval). That forced the change to 4-4-2, what the fans had been demanding for weeks and suddenly the results changed. The 6 wins in a row included 4 of the bottom 8 teams but the change was startling. Hammill had a point to prove and his directness seemed to inspire the other players to get the ball forward earlier.

 

Well for me, this entire article could have been written by a City fan. Isn't this exactly the same pattern as we are seeing now?

[Guest Old Goat]

Flipping heck, if I'd known this thread was going to run to two pages I might have checked in again a bit sooner. As it is, I think most of the follow-up questions have been sorted by other Tykes posting above. But a few things to come back on:

@finbarr_in_z   apologies over the B word. Clearly it's a touchy subject.  Although I have to say that to an outsider, this OTIB thing looks like the younger of a pair of identical twins insisting he's an only child. 1883 and 1897... not much in it really, is there?  OK I'm just kidding - we've never had any same town rivalry to deal with, so I can't pretend to understand it.  At least you seem like a well adjusted bunch, unlike that Sheffield mob.

@JonDolman  Lloyd Isgrove was great for us when we had him on loan last season. Terrific attitude, fast and tricky. Possibly a bit lightweight, but made up for it by being tenacious. That was L1 mind. Not sure about the Championship.

@Red Right Hand  Hourihane a cracking player and you're right, Villa have got him for peanuts. Interesting thing about Hourihane...  When he first came to us he was an out and out attacking midfielder. Great going forward, but rubbish if we were defending. Couldn't tackle to save his life, and bordering on being lazy when he didn't have the ball. Johnson insisted on converting him into a more defensive-minded midfielder - something at the time that I hated. Time and again I'd be screaming at Hourihane to get forward, to no avail. It all came together for him eventually, and in a piece in the local rag at the start of this season Hourihane actually credited LJ with his development, saying that LJ had even gone so far as to play alongside him in pre-season friendlies to give him some real-time on-pitch mentoring. LJ has many critics round these parts, but he's not the anti-Christ.  

@AppyDAZE  Must be cathartic, I guess.  Most of us at Oakwell are still too stunned to understand what the heck happened last season - half of it was a nightmare, the other half was fantasy football on steroids.  Maybe a long essay on somebody else's patch is the only way to make it feel real.

That's all folks - apologies if I've missed anyone.  Hope you give the Owls a battering tomorrow.

Goat

 

[finbarr_in_z]

1 hour ago, Old Goat said:

 

@finbarr_in_z   apologies over the B word. Clearly it's a touchy subject.  Although I have to say that to an outsider, this OTIB thing looks like the younger of a pair of identical twins insisting he's an only child. 1883 and 1897... not much in it really, is there?  OK I'm just kidding - we've never had any same town rivalry to deal with, so I can't pretend to understand it.  At least you seem like a well adjusted bunch, unlike that Sheffield mob.

 

 

Ah but they also have the "Sheffield" club so they got in first.

Any club referred to in Bristol as "Bristol" has funny shaped balls. But, yes, as an outsider you'd never know that.