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Eddie Hitler

Eddie Hitler

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

No, it's saying minimum not average and giving examples such as Burnley, Bournemouth and Middlesbrough who have all been promoted

I stand corrected!

If however any of those had made a mistake, as I feel we have, I would expect them to recognise it.

This is our second appointment of an ex-player in recent years and I do not see anything in the previous track record of either Brian Tinnion or Lee Johnson that would have seen their appointment had they not played for Bristol City.

They are emotional appointments and Lee Johnson doubly so as he is the son of the manager who nearly got us into the Premiership.

You shouldn't be making decisions in that manner in football.

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ashton_fan

ashton_fan

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Eddie Hitler said:

I stand corrected!

If however any of those had made a mistake, as I feel we have, I would expect them to recognise it.

This is our second appointment of an ex-player in recent years and I do not see anything in the previous track record of either Brian Tinnion or Lee Johnson that would have seen their appointment had they not played for Bristol City.

They are emotional appointments and Lee Johnson doubly so as he is the son of the manager who nearly got us into the Premiership.

You shouldn't be making decisions in that manner in football.

When I started watching City Alan Dicks was appointed as manager at about the same age as LJ and went through some tough times early on where the fans wanted him sacked but he turned out to be our most successful manager ever

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Fiale

Fiale

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

We had the 3rd highest attendance in our league yesterday playing the bottom team

 

All the season ticket holders and the £10 ticket promotion - so of course it was a good attendance. With our season ticket sales we will always get good attendances anyway, throw in a heavily promoted £10 a person ticket... even  knew some people who went for the game who have no intention of going often.

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Eddie Hitler

Eddie Hitler

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

When I started watching City Alan Dicks was appointed as manager at about the same age as LJ and went through some tough times early on where the fans wanted him sacked but he turned out to be our most successful manager ever

Whilst I wouldn't have expected you to have read it, Ashton fan, amongst the many thousands of posts you get on here I cited the supposed parallel with Alan Dicks, our most successful postwar manager, on another thread.

But I cited it in a different way, as being another emotional plank to an argument that lacks actual logic.

Both managers early thirties when appointed - tick

Both managers had bad runs in their first year - tick

Then we get into the flawed logic that because they have that in common then LJ will now follow AD in delivering success and promotion.

Why does that follow? Surely it's more likely that LJ will continue to fail rather than replicate AD's success with it.

It's another emotional argument in my book. If you want success get a proven successful manager; not one who has just replicated the early failures of a manager who went on to be successful.

 

To push that parallel Steve Redgrave took up rowing partly in order to overcome his asthma; but I wouldn't select the next world champion rower based upon their also having asthma. Or think that a young footballer with diabetes was the next Gary Mabbutt.  It is not the failure or weakness that is their strength.

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spudski

spudski

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

If he isn't going anywhere, I think the fans might be

I don't think they will. Lots of moaning I agree...but we are City...lots of fans actually prefer moaning than not. They seem to thrive off it.

It's all very well moaning...and god do we moan a lot for a fan base.

In fact when we are playing well and winning, this place is a morgue. No one talks about how well we played...they enjoy moaning about when things aren't going well. This place is most active when things are going badly...it's very telling.

I think we played crap yesterday and we've been awful for at least two months.

What I find worrying, is that I really don't think a lot of our fan base is ready to accept the Championship.

It is what it is. Hard fought out games, that are often dire in entertainment.

If it's about results for enjoyment...we aren't far away. If it's entertainment certain fans want, then I suggest we are miles away from that and the Championship isn't for them.

Look at Reading. sitting pretty in third place. Scored just 6 more than us...conceded just 2 less. We've scored four more than Huddersfield and Wednesday.

Preston in 11th. We've scored exactly the same amount of goals and conceded just four more.

It's a division of small margins.

Yes it's been poor, yes it been not very entertaining. If we had scored four more goals and conceded 4 less...we'd be mid table. That's the difference in this league.

We could have been playing exactly the same way...yet four goals would have made the difference. It's mental when you look at it.

Would fans be happy? Just four goals difference? It would still be the same football.

There is no magic wand in this league and very little entertaining football. We aren't going to see the cavalier type football of our league 1 exploits.

 

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Redmycolour

Redmycolour

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Mr Hankey said:

LJ wont be sacked before the end of the season, which means im depressingly 95% certain we will be relegated, which means we should get Kenny Jackett as he will more or less guarantee us top 6 in the division below which is what we will need as the current squad will be broken up completely with the vast majority heading to championship teams or abroad which means starting from ground zero again in a ridiculously empty stadium.

If by some miracle we survive by the skin of our teeth then bin this fraud, the money he has spent anywhere below 15th should result in dismissal and be seen as an epic failure considering the talent we have and a future england international leading the line (btw i would bite off anyones hand to finish 21st) then, do everything in our power to get Mark Warburton and promise him the exact same support LJ has undeservedly had.

Do we seriously want relegation NO.get someone new in now before its too late.wake up SL act now.yesterday was awful. but scraped a win against a poor side.LJ you lost it yesterday.if you love Bristol city fc as you said you do PLEASE RESEIGN now.

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Red Exile

Red Exile

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, spudski said:

What I find worrying, is that I really don't think a lot of our fan base is ready to accept the Championship.

It is what it is. Hard fought out games, that are often dire in entertainment.

If it's about results for enjoyment...we aren't far away. If it's entertainment certain fans want, then I suggest we are miles away from that and the Championship isn't for them.

 

Thing is Spudski, whilst I don't disagree with the stats and the fine margins, and with the conclusion that "cavalier" football isn't going to be on offer any time soon in the Championship what I don't see is intelligent football...it appears to me to be a complete mess. I could take pleasure in a dour, dare I say trad-Italian, attritional style that squeaked wins...but what I see is a group of players doing their own thing without a framework or a team strategy...and it's not working. I don't think Lee Johnson has it in him to make it work...I quite accept that others think differently!

 

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pillred

pillred

Posted
Posted
55 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

There's a good article in the Sunday Times today about Championship managers showing that the most successful clubs are those that give their managers a minimum of two years in the job, whereas the ones that keep chopping and changing generally get worse

oh god, could you put up another year of what we saw yesterday?

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daored

daored

Posted
Posted

Johnson will be going nowhere, I'm not entirely convinced even relegation will see him sacked (and that's a worry).

My biggest concern is we will see a huge turnover of players this summer regardless of what league we're in. IF we stay up (which I don't think we will), then Johnson will definitely remain in place, and I can see a number of players leaving the club.

If we're relegated then it's inevitable players will move on.

I hate to say it but the appointment of Johnson has put this club backwards. At the start of the season we were an attractive proposition for players, new stadium (to an extent) hence the signing of players of Mags, Tomlin and O'Neil. We've lost that appeal now in my opinion 

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ashton_fan

ashton_fan

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

Whilst I wouldn't have expected you to have read it, Ashton fan, amongst the many thousands of posts you get on here I cited the supposed parallel with Alan Dicks, our most successful postwar manager, on another thread.

But I cited it in a different way, as being another emotional plank to an argument that lacks actual logic.

Both managers early thirties when appointed - tick

Both managers had bad runs in their first year - tick

Then we get into the flawed logic that because they have that in common then LJ will now follow AD in delivering success and promotion.

Why does that follow? Surely it's more likely that LJ will continue to fail rather than replicate AD's success with it.

It's another emotional argument in my book. If you want success get a proven successful manager; not one who has just replicated the early failures of a manager who went on to be successful.

 

To push that parallel Steve Redgrave took up rowing partly in order to overcome his asthma; but I wouldn't select the next world champion rower based upon their also having asthma. Or think that a young footballer with diabetes was the next Gary Mabbutt.  It is not the failure or weakness that is their strength.

Obviously there's no guarantee that LJ will be as successful as AD but it shows it's a possibility.

We've had many managers with successful track records who've come here and failed, MicInnes had never failed prior to his appointment here so that route's no guarantee of success either.

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One BCFC

One BCFC

Posted
Posted

My take on it may be this... i think SL and the board will see how we get on until end of season. If we just about stay up he will be gone, likewise if we get relegated. He will be gone in the summer if we stay in the position we are in. Gives the new boss time to put his stamp on things.

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spudski

spudski

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Red Exile said:

Thing is Spudski, whilst I don't disagree with the stats and the fine margins, and with the conclusion that "cavalier" football isn't going to be on offer any time soon in the Championship what I don't see is intelligent football...it appears to me to be a complete mess. I could take pleasure in a dour, dare I say trad-Italian, attritional style that squeaked wins...but what I see is a group of players doing their own thing without a framework or a team strategy...and it's not working. I don't think Lee Johnson has it in him to make it work...I quite accept that others think differently!

 

I actually see the opposite.

I see players concentrating on keeping shape at all costs. And that effects their football. Everyone is scared of making a mistake. No one wants the ball.

You've only got to look at the simple throw in, to see that no one wants it. No one moves. No one makes themselves available. They are all shit scared.

I also see other players like Tomlin disregarding this. You either have a team working as one or not. You can't have players doing their own thing as it causes confusion.

I certainly saw confusion yesterday with about 10 mins to play. Some wanted to play...others wanted to put it into the corner and play down time. There was certainly confusion on what to do. Funnily both Cotterhill and Taylor wanted to attack...our nervous rest of the team, looked like rabbits in headlights. This is where we needed a leader....someone vocal...someone commanding. We don't seem to have that.

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Beni71

Beni71

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, spudski said:

I don't think they will. Lots of moaning I agree...but we are City...lots of fans actually prefer moaning than not. They seem to thrive off it.

It's all very well moaning...and god do we moan a lot for a fan base.

In fact when we are playing well and winning, this place is a morgue. No one talks about how well we played...they enjoy moaning about when things aren't going well. This place is most active when things are going badly...it's very telling.

I think we played crap yesterday and we've been awful for at least two months.

What I find worrying, is that I really don't think a lot of our fan base is ready to accept the Championship.

It is what it is. Hard fought out games, that are often dire in entertainment.

If it's about results for enjoyment...we aren't far away. If it's entertainment certain fans want, then I suggest we are miles away from that and the Championship isn't for them.

Look at Reading. sitting pretty in third place. Scored just 6 more than us...conceded just 2 less. We've scored four more than Huddersfield and Wednesday.

Preston in 11th. We've scored exactly the same amount of goals and conceded just four more.

It's a division of small margins.

Yes it's been poor, yes it been not very entertaining. If we had scored four more goals and conceded 4 less...we'd be mid table. That's the difference in this league.

We could have been playing exactly the same way...yet four goals would have made the difference. It's mental when you look at it.

Would fans be happy? Just four goals difference? It would still be the same football.

There is no magic wand in this league and very little entertaining football. We aren't going to see the cavalier type football of our league 1 exploits.

 

Really good post and absolutely spot on in terms of small margins. Watched Wednesday vs Wigan on Friday night and thought Wednesday were pretty poor but  got their noses in front and managed the game.

Wasn't pretty and TBH very similar to yesterday's game, few chances, little quality. Lots of teams in championship cancel each other out and it's often a mistake or moment of class that makes the difference.

Hence we have Tomlin for those moments, but finding his position and getting him on the ball in the right places are the challenge. Worked Tuesday and highly effective and creative. Same formation yesterday but didn't get a kick and that was down to Rotherham squeezing the space. 

I can see why LJ plays him deeper at times so he can get on the ball, but leaves us defensively exposed.  

 

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GodEmperor Palpatine

GodEmperor Palpatine

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, daored said:

Johnson will be going nowhere, I'm not entirely convinced even relegation will see him sacked (and that's a worry).

My biggest concern is we will see a huge turnover of players this summer regardless of what league we're in. IF we stay up (which I don't think we will), then Johnson will definitely remain in place, and I can see a number of players leaving the club.

If we're relegated then it's inevitable players will move on.

I hate to say it but the appointment of Johnson has put this club backwards. At the start of the season we were an attractive proposition for players, new stadium (to an extent) hence the signing of players of Mags, Tomlin and O'Neil. We've lost that appeal now in my opinion 

Those two have been a part of the problem of why the club has gone backwards

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spudski

spudski

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Beni71 said:

Really good post and absolutely spot on in terms of small margins. Watched Wednesday vs Wigan on Friday night and thought Wednesday were pretty poor but  got their noses in front and managed the game.

Wasn't pretty and TBH very similar to yesterday's game, few chances, little quality. Lots of teams in championship cancel each other out and it's often a mistake or moment of class that makes the difference.

Hence we have Tomlin for those moments, but finding his position and getting him on the ball in the right places are the challenge. Worked Tuesday and highly effective and creative. Same formation yesterday but didn't get a kick and that was down to Rotherham squeezing the space. 

I can see why LJ plays him deeper at times so he can get on the ball, but leaves us defensively exposed.  

 

Re Tomlin...you could play him every game, in his position behind a front two. You'd get one good game. Three bad. You can't carry players like that...regardless of having natural ability that comes to the fore randomly. It's the same as when we had JET...he's become our biggest problem.

Look at the teams that are doing well...look at the teams in the lower half of the Prem. They don't carry players like Tomlin.

 

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petehinton

petehinton

Posted
Posted

The issue is we've left it far too late now. If LJ is sacked and we bring in a new manager in March it'll be panic stations everywhere around the club, not enough time. 

If he was going to be sacked, he should've gone straight after Reading, and we'd have had a new manager in place by now, and he'd have had enough time to asses things and we'd have been above the drop still. If LJ does go, it'll be when we're in the relegation zone with 10 or so games left - which is an appealing thing for 0 managers. 

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spudski

spudski

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Roger Red Hat said:

We don't seem to have that in our head coach or on the pitch. Although if we had a head coach that commanded respect from the players we may well find someone to lead on the pitch.

We don't know that he doesn't command respect fella...that's just OTIB made up stuff.

I've not witnessed a team not playing for the gaffer. I've witnessed scared players and some very average players in certain positions. It often feels like we are playing with two less players because of it. Certain players play within their limits, because they know they aren't good enough.

Our fullbacks are dire. Yes...blame can go to the management to a certain degree in not judging that properly.

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Red Exile

Red Exile

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, spudski said:

I actually see the opposite.

I see players concentrating on keeping shape at all costs. And that effects their football. Everyone is scared of making a mistake. No one wants the ball.

You've only got to look at the simple throw in, to see that no one wants it. No one moves. No one makes themselves available. They are all shit scared.

I also see other players like Tomlin disregarding this. You either have a team working as one or not. You can't have players doing their own thing as it causes confusion.

I certainly saw confusion yesterday with about 10 mins to play. Some wanted to play...others wanted to put it into the corner and play down time. There was certainly confusion on what to do. Funnily both Cotterhill and Taylor wanted to attack...our nervous rest of the team, looked like rabbits in headlights. This is where we needed a leader....someone vocal...someone commanding. We don't seem to have that.

I think we're possibly seeing the same thing but coming to different conclusions! For me leadership starts with the manager - who appears to me the rabbit in the headlights. 

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