top manager needed now

[petehinton]

8 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Those two have been a part of the problem of why the club has gone backwards

Signing a player who's won promotion from this league 3 times, and one of the best players in this league a few years back, is why we've gone backwards?

Makes sense. 

[Roger Red Hat]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

We don't know that he doesn't command respect fella...that's just OTIB made up stuff.

I've not witnessed a team not playing for the gaffer. I've witnessed scared players and some very average players in certain positions. It often feels like we are playing with two less players because of it. Certain players play within their limits, because they know they aren't good enough.

Our fullbacks are dire. Yes...blame can go to the management to a certain degree in not judging that properly.

Hi Spudski, I like a lot of stuff you post, but if LJ was a leader, who commanded respect, I believe he would be getting 'extra' from those players that are scared. 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Red Exile said:

I think we're possibly seeing the same thing but coming to different conclusions! For me leadership starts with the manager - who appears to me the rabbit in the headlights. 

Appears through his mannerism on the touchline, or through something else?

We do exactly as any other team does in this division. We play to an organised shape and structure.

The key difference is certain players aren't good at doing it consistently. Plus in recent times, lack of confidence causing hesitancy and slowness of mind and body.

Confidence is a major issue.

Not saying LJ isn't at fault, but I don't think he's totally all at fault either.

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Signing a player who's won promotion from this league 3 times, and one of the best players in this league a few years back, is why we've gone backwards?

Makes sense. 

What they've done in the past has no relevance on what they do in the present.

Matthews, GoN, Tomlin, our most experienced players on paper have been arguably our least consistent this season.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

Just now, petehinton said:

Signing a player who's won promotion from this league 3 times, and one of the best players in this league a few years back, is why we've gone backwards?

Makes sense. 

Who cares what they have done, its what they are doing here which counts and they've both done next to nothing this season... so yeah I would say it makes sense.

So for you, basically as your lauding their previous accolades they should be doing more? Or performing as you would expect them to perform which they are not

[chinapig]

19 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

Whilst I wouldn't have expected you to have read it, Ashton fan, amongst the many thousands of posts you get on here I cited the supposed parallel with Alan Dicks, our most successful postwar manager, on another thread.

But I cited it in a different way, as being another emotional plank to an argument that lacks actual logic.

Both managers early thirties when appointed - tick

Both managers had bad runs in their first year - tick

Then we get into the flawed logic that because they have that in common then LJ will now follow AD in delivering success and promotion.

Why does that follow? Surely it's more likely that LJ will continue to fail rather than replicate AD's success with it.

It's another emotional argument in my book. If you want success get a proven successful manager; not one who has just replicated the early failures of a manager who went on to be successful.

 

To push that parallel Steve Redgrave took up rowing partly in order to overcome his asthma; but I wouldn't select the next world champion rower based upon their also having asthma. Or think that a young footballer with diabetes was the next Gary Mabbutt.  It is not the failure or weakness that is their strength.

You make a very good case, though I don't use the AD example in the way you describe but rather to illustrate that the vitriol LJ gets is not new and that the emotional reaction of fans is not a sound basis for decision making.

It could have gone wrong and AD might have taken us down but Harry Dolman backed his judgement and it happened to pay off. A similarity to today is that there was also a strategy and people were put in place to deliver it.

But it took a while to turn it around, certainly more than a season. There is no guarantee the same will happen with LJ and the risk is high but the parallels are instructive. We also know from recent experience that changing manager 3 times did not prevent an inexorable slide to relegation, so there are no guarantees the other way either.

But isn't your case undermined by the AD example also given that he was certainly not a proven successful manager? In other words the reverse argument applies in that past success is not a guarantee of future success either.

As to proven successful managers, in those terms most managers are failures since there are a fixed number of promotion places so the field may be small and not necessarily open to us.

I wouldn't like to be the one making the decision since the odds of getting it wrong are very high.

[daored]

15 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Those two have been a part of the problem of why the club has gone backwards

My point about those two players were they're the type of players (ability / experience wise) the club needs to attract to move forward. 

The start of last season we wouldn't have attracted such players as demonstrated by the knock backs we received. Last summer we had a re-developed stadium. We were an attractive proposition to players. In my opinion we've lost that element of appeal , had we finished mid table (top 10 at push) we would have continued to be attractive to such players. 

[Engvall's Splinter]

41 minutes ago, Rednwhiterob said:

Thanks Engvall. Seems Brentford have totally imploded since I left. Oh, maybe not.

Thanks to your foundations Mark. Give yourself credit. 

[petehinton]

5 minutes ago, spudski said:

What they've done in the past has no relevance on what they do in the present.

Matthews, GoN, Tomlin, our most experienced players on paper have been arguably our least consistent this season.

Matthews was signed unfit, the club knew that. The club saw he was overweight and had no match practise yet still signed him. Should've even be here imo. 

GON has been good in most games, Brighton aside. First few home games he was superb but has since fallen victim to constant rotation - god knows what he/Reid/Magnusson have done to be completely shelled from the 18 altogether. Very strange. 

Take your point on Tomlin but we all knew that when we signed him. Tuesday night he won us the game, was unplayable. You have to accept those games with him will be balanced out by those like yesterday where he was a passenger. 

If you say to any championship fan that they'd have a  squad with Tomlin & GO'N in you'd struggle to find one that would moan about it. Haven't been used properly.  

[robinreliant]

3 hours ago, leader said:

ive been watching the reds for 50 odd years  after watching the game yesterday  im sorry to say we need a change now not the summer it was just awful, get a seasoned manager in please, there is some good players in our squad  someone needs to bring it out of um

I've been 50 odd years of watching city too and was sad when Fred Ford got the sack in 1967. Don't think at this moment in time I would feel the same if LJ was sacked (sorry LJ). When Alan Dicks took over from Fred Ford I and everyone else had no idea what was to come. We ended up with a great team.

Lee might be the one to bring that great feeling back. I just don't know. Doesn't look like it at the moment but who knows ?. It's up to SL to decide what happens next.

As it stands now it looks like LJ has his backing so we must go with him and hope it all gets better. I certainly won't be around for another 50 years so I'm not going to worry much I'll just leave that to the younger fans.

As a foot note it's good to see Dave Cotts back on the right wing. Perhaps history will repeat itself and he can do what Chris Crowe did back then.

[Red Exile]

21 minutes ago, spudski said:

Appears through his mannerism on the touchline, or through something else?

We do exactly as any other team does in this division. We play to an organised shape and structure.

The key difference is certain players aren't good at doing it consistently. Plus in recent times, lack of confidence causing hesitancy and slowness of mind and body.

Confidence is a major issue.

Not saying LJ isn't at fault, but I don't think he's totally all at fault either.

My observations are based on the way his team plays. Inconsistency, players blowing hot and cold, everything you say about not wanting the ball, lacking confidence. And I don't see the shape you see. I've got no sports management experience but I know how to lead and manage people in high pressure situations and how to get the best from them. I'm a quiet calm leader. When we played Cardiff I sat behind the dugouts. I was unimpressed as ever with Warnock's hysterics, but very impressed by his calculated and calm use of his support staff. Intelligent stuff. I'd hoped LJ would be an intelligent manager. I think that's what he wants to be but he's not delivered. 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, petehinton said:

Matthews was signed unfit, the club knew that. The club saw he was overweight and had no match practise yet still signed him. Should've even be here imo. 

GON has been good in most games, Brighton aside. First few home games he was superb but has since fallen victim to constant rotation - god knows what he/Reid/Magnusson have done to be completely shelled from the 18 altogether. Very strange. 

Take your point on Tomlin but we all knew that when we signed him. Tuesday night he won us the game, was unplayable. You have to accept those games with him will be balanced out by those like yesterday where he was a passenger. 

If you say to any championship fan that they'd have a  squad with Tomlin & GO'N in you'd struggle to find one that would moan about it. Haven't been used properly.  

I agree re Matthews.

I disagree re GoN...he's lost a yard and been constantly injured, and because of that played within himself. Not commanding enough. Hegeler is far better a player.

You can't accept those games where Tomlin is a passenger. How many games has he played well this season? You can't carry a player hoping he'll have a decent game every now and then. That's absolute madness thinking.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

22 minutes ago, petehinton said:

The issue is we've left it far too late now. If LJ is sacked and we bring in a new manager in March it'll be panic stations everywhere around the club, not enough time. 

If he was going to be sacked, he should've gone straight after Reading, and we'd have had a new manager in place by now, and he'd have had enough time to asses things and we'd have been above the drop still. If LJ does go, it'll be when we're in the relegation zone with 10 or so games left - which is an appealing thing for 0 managers. 

That's the whole issue for me too. The moment has passed.

If Lee was gonna go it should have happened weeks ago. Similar time that Cotts went. 

If he gets the bullet now then the overwhelming probability is that no new Manager comes in, Pembo takes over until our fate is sealed one way or another. And would that be guaranteed to make much of a difference?

For better or for worse, Mr Lansdown has cast his dye and there's no going back until we're safe or relegated. Ultimately he's stuck with the consequences and cost of his decision.

If fans can't bring themselves to support the Manager then at least support the team and don't boo . If those fans can't support the team then stay at home on OTIB.

Last time I checked not once this season have we been in the relegation places and are still 6 points from mid table with a good GD compared to rivals.

[petehinton]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

I agree re Matthews.

I disagree re GoN...he's lost a yard and been constantly injured, and because of that played within himself. Not commanding enough. Hegeler is far better a player.

You can't accept those games where Tomlin is a passenger. How many games has he played well this season? You can't carry a player hoping he'll have a decent game every now and then. That's absolute madness thinking.

The club (and fans) knew what they were getting when we signed him. The same as JET. If anyone thought he was going to come in and be an 8/10 with a great attitude every game then they've got the wrong man. There's a reason he lasted 5 months at Bournemouth and didn't go back to Boro. 

[Roger Red Hat]

15 minutes ago, petehinton said:

You have to accept those games with him will be balanced out by those like yesterday where he was a passenger. 

No, it's not acceptable. What sort of message does it send to other players?

[shelts]

1 hour ago, Engvall's Splinter said:

Can I ask what makes you think we'll stay up? Or what we've got over our rivals in the relegation spots?

We've been terrible at times . We've been reeled into the relegation dog fight. These players will get us out of the mess they have put us in. Hopefully the manager might set us up a little better and tinker less. Somewhere we still have a good side. All the way through the patch not once have I thought we'd go down . Our squad is decent. 

[Rob k]

34 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I think we're possibly seeing the same thing but coming to different conclusions! For me leadership starts with the manager - who appears to me the rabbit in the headlights. 

That same manager made 3 changes and affected the game in order for us to win.  

[BobBobSuperBob]

35 minutes ago, spudski said:

We don't know that he doesn't command respect fella...that's just OTIB made up stuff.

I've not witnessed a team not playing for the gaffer. I've witnessed scared players and some very average players in certain positions. It often feels like we are playing with two less players because of it. Certain players play within their limits, because they know they aren't good enough.

Our fullbacks are dire. Yes...blame can go to the management to a certain degree in not judging that properly.

Now now Spud

You know that's not the case , certainly in some part at the very least , and a little bit more than ' OTIB made up stuff '. !!!

[Dolman Block B]

2 hours ago, bs3 said:

Just can't see us getting a point at any of this places.  But there will those on here who say that with have high expectations if we think we can get results at these clubs , which I take their point but what we needed to do was to win a few home between October and now and not relay on on getting points from these games.

So I think you right he should be gone if we don't pick up any points in the next 4 games the excuses will be made about the quality of the opposition and that way he will keep his job.

Got to live in hope but no points from these games and defo bottom 2 with rotherham

We will get relegated 

[BS3rich]

Lose the next 2-3 and he'll be gone as we'll probably be in the relegation zone at that point. Pembo to try and keep us up and then appoint a manager in the summer. 

[Red Exile]

4 minutes ago, Rob k said:

That same manager made 3 changes and affected the game in order for us to win.  

He did the same thing in the match at Rotherham. Struck me as panic. Not something carefully prepared or considered. Granted it saved a point up there and won us two yesterday but I'd be more impressed if we'd played effectively from the start. We should have comfortably won both matches with the players available to us. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

 

Quote

Morning Spud

I actually see the opposite.

I see players concentrating on keeping shape at all costs. And that effects their football. Everyone is scared of making a mistake. No one wants the ball.

1 Coaches Instructions ? & 2 Down to coaches reaction to mistakes ?

 

You've only got to look at the simple throw in, to see that no one wants it. No one moves. No one makes themselves available. They are all shit scared.

Coaches man management ? reaction to mistakes ? Or just lack of confidence ?

 

I also see other players like Tomlin disregarding this. You either have a team working as one or not. You can't have players doing their own thing as it causes confusion.

V Good point - agree

I certainly saw confusion yesterday with about 10 mins to play. Some wanted to play...others wanted to put it into the corner and play down time.

V Good point - agree

 

There was certainly confusion on what to do. Funnily both Cotterhill and Taylor wanted to attack...our nervous rest of the team, looked like rabbits in headlights.

This is where we needed a leader....someone vocal...someone commanding. We don't seem to have that.

 

V Good point - agree

 

[LondonBristolian]

2 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

There's a good article in the Sunday Times today about Championship managers showing that the most successful clubs are those that give their managers a minimum of two years in the job, whereas the ones that keep chopping and changing generally get worse

It's chicken and egg though isn't it? Do the managers succeed because the club gives them continuity or does the club give them continuity because they are succeeding as managers? It might be an argument for giving managers time but could just as well be an argument for making sure you appoint the right manager.

[BobBobSuperBob]

8 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

It's chicken and egg though isn't it? Do the managers succeed because the club gives them continuity or does the club give them continuity because they are succeeding as managers? It might be an argument for giving managers time but could just as well be an argument for making sure you appoint the right manager.

Spot on

Think we would all back a manager and like to see longevity

But that as you rightly point out , is dependent on appointing the right man at the outset

Blindly (IMO) in sticking with someone who's not , merely compounds an original mistake

Lets just pray that SL is right and many of us are wrong

[NickJ]

1 hour ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Those two have been a part of the problem of why the club has gone backwards

Not the persons who bought them, based on their DNA then?

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I actually see the opposite.

I see players concentrating on keeping shape at all costs. And that effects their football. Everyone is scared of making a mistake. No one wants the ball.

You've only got to look at the simple throw in, to see that no one wants it. No one moves. No one makes themselves available. They are all shit scared.

I also see other players like Tomlin disregarding this. You either have a team working as one or not. You can't have players doing their own thing as it causes confusion.

I certainly saw confusion yesterday with about 10 mins to play. Some wanted to play...others wanted to put it into the corner and play down time. There was certainly confusion on what to do. Funnily both Cotterhill and Taylor wanted to attack...our nervous rest of the team, looked like rabbits in headlights. This is where we needed a leader....someone vocal...someone commanding. We don't seem to have that.

This is a genuine question rather than a criticism. Bearing in mind I wasn't able to make Burnley, Wednesday and Rotherham this is largely based on my thoughts after the Cardiff and Forest games, which is where I moved from 'Give the manager time' to 'we have to accept this is not working'...

 

What sort of football do you think Lee Johnson is trying to play? Especially after the Forest game, my issue was not simply that I did not feel the plan was working but that it was not at all to me what the plan was. Based on what you've seen so far, if LJ was here for the rest of the season, kept us up, did what he wanted to do in the summer and next season we were playing exactly to his gameplan and getting results, what sort of football do you think we would be watching? 

With Johnson senior, Cotterill and even SOD (admittedly Millen and McInnes less so), I felt I understood what the vision was in the style, philosophy and approach of the team (even where it didn't work) but I honestly can't say I know at the moment. If LJ is here for the long haul - and I certainly can't see him going before the Villa game and only then if we have four consecutive losses - then I want to support him. But I just want to get what he wants players to do on the pitch and i'd love to know what you (and other posters) think.

[spudski]

39 minutes ago, petehinton said:

The club (and fans) knew what they were getting when we signed him. The same as JET. If anyone thought he was going to come in and be an 8/10 with a great attitude every game then they've got the wrong man. There's a reason he lasted 5 months at Bournemouth and didn't go back to Boro. 

Exactly...and the one reason I think LJ made a massive mistake bringing him here.

Undoubted natural talent...but brings more 'issues' with him, both on and off the pitch, than positives.

He's been half our problems this season...as well as GoN and Matthews.

Thing is...City fans have always been suckers for this type of player and dashing wingers.

Jackie, Trundle, JeT and now Tomlin...all more trouble than they are worth in the long run. Same as our reliance one season on Albert.

It's the same old problems...building teams around 'mavericks' that can play occasionally.

 

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

This is a genuine question rather than a criticism. Bearing in mind I wasn't able to make Burnley, Wednesday and Rotherham this is largely based on my thoughts after the Cardiff and Forest games, which is where I moved from 'Give the manager time' to 'we have to accept this is not working'...

 

What sort of football do you think Lee Johnson is trying to play? Especially after the Forest game, my issue was not simply that I did not feel the plan was working but that it was not at all to me what the plan was. Based on what you've seen so far, if LJ was here for the rest of the season, kept us up, did what he wanted to do in the summer and next season we were playing exactly to his gameplan and getting results, what sort of football do you think we would be watching? 

With Johnson senior, Cotterill and even SOD (admittedly Millen and McInnes less so), I felt I understood what the vision was in the style, philosophy and approach of the team (even where it didn't work) but I honestly can't say I know at the moment. If LJ is here for the long haul - and I certainly can't see him going before the Villa game and only then if we have four consecutive losses - then I want to support him. But I just want to get what he wants players to do on the pitch and i'd love to know what you (and other posters) think.

At the moment, he's just trying to grind out wins and stop the rot. Playing boring percentage football, based on keeping shape and possession and trying to intercept passes from the opposition.

I don't think we are actually playing how he would want us to play if we weren't in a relegation scrap. Partly his own doing though.

We aren't risking anything...and if we do via Tomlin...no one else is on his wave length. Playing very conservative ground out percentage football....that is blooming boring tbh.

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Red Exile said:

Thing is Spudski, whilst I don't disagree with the stats and the fine margins, and with the conclusion that "cavalier" football isn't going to be on offer any time soon in the Championship what I don't see is intelligent football...it appears to me to be a complete mess. I could take pleasure in a dour, dare I say trad-Italian, attritional style that squeaked wins...but what I see is a group of players doing their own thing without a framework or a team strategy...and it's not working. I don't think Lee Johnson has it in him to make it work...I quite accept that others think differently!

 

This is a very telling point, and very true. A seemingly 'out of the hat' team selection, toss of a coin formation choice and no obvious system of play.
It is worrying and with there being no point (or chance) of getting rid of the manager in the middle of a very tough run of games,so two defeats  would see LJ safe from the sack and little or no chance of improvement for the rest of the month. March comes and firmly in the bottom 3 and even if he was sacked then, who would want it that could be expected to be long term and not a risk?

[tinman85]

I am positive that any other proven manager at this level would have us in the top 10 pushing the play offs with the resources they have been given. Best squad we have had for years and years yet we are still in a relegation battle. Watching Johnson Holden and Pembs yesterday was like watching coaches on the touchline of a school PE team