The Office (UK): Ipswich Town edition

[Kid in the Riot]

10 minutes ago, Jeez said:

Maybe now it’s more acceptable to believe that MA actually had little influence in the appointment of LJ & Deano.  

Even at the time that was clear as day, surely? 

Does raise the interesting question of who MA would have appointed in both those situations, if he'd been given the power to make the appointments... 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Kid in the Riot

[Andy082005]

4 hours ago, richwwtk said:

How is it 25 years of under achieving? You would be hard pushed to find a 25 year period in our history where our average league placing was higher.

We haven't been wildly successful, I will grant you that but seeing as most of our time has been spent as a yoyo between Championship and League 1 level we are now firmly established as a mid table Championship club with a better platform than we have ever had to push on.

Be careful what you wish for when the Lansdowns move on. You might think there is disconnect between the club and the fans now, it will only get worse...

Look at the money that has been invested - and then look at the return on that investment 

We have massively underachieved 

As for being careful what we wish for - if the future is season after season of finishing 14th, with absolutely nothing to push for - no thanks 

I would rather roll the dice with new owners, take a chance - lose and end up in league 1, then just put up with 14th place football week on week for the next few years

People have been brainwashed into thinking the Lansdowns are the be all and end all 

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, Redland said:

I am sure that I am not the only one who has been waiting for newly promoted lpswich’s  bubble to burst but following yet another win yesterday they appear to be relentlessly marching on to automatic promotion to the Premier League.

Under their new US owners I believe Ashton was headhunted and has been given relatively free rein to run the club and the appointment of McKenna as manager has proved to be inspired. In contrast I think there is little doubt that the managerial appointments at City of Keith Millen, Lee Johnson and Dean Holden were driven by Steve Lansdown and Ashton had the unenviable job of presenting these underwhelming decisions to the fans and media. When he made comments along the lines of the “outstanding candidate“ being appointed what was he supposed to say? He could hardly say “well, it was Steve’s decision, so you better ask him.“

Similarly I am sure that it was SL’s decision to persist with LJ for over four and a half years including a remarkable period that saw the club “achieve” a new record for the number of successive league defeats.

The fact that we no longer even have a CEO provides further indication where the footballing decisions are made at our club.

As the season progresses I can’t help but feel envious of Ipswich and wonder if the previous criticism of Mark Ashton on this forum is justified. I certainly think it is reasonable to ask why he has been so successful at Ipswich and not here.

Incidentally a good mate of mine is an Ipswich fan and whilst they have a more successful history than us they are not a “fashionable’ club and I always think of them as a similar club to City. There is still a long way to go but I wish them all the best for the rest of the season.

Headhunted?

Or…

…used his time as CEO at Bristol City to sound out US Investors, ultimately for the benefit of another club.  Before you claim conspiracy, I wonder whether Gamechanger 2020 were pitched by Ashton to SL, but turned down.  The Florida trip coincided with NLS conferences (the tier below MLS) and the owners of Gamechanger own Phoenix FC (Phoenix Rising) of the NLS.

The other reason for 2+2, is that Ashton’s mentor Mike O’Leary is the Chairman of Ipswich, having been the same at West Brom and Oxford, where Ashton followed him.  And Ashton was also at Alcydon Ltd, O’Leary’s property company.

So less Headhunted, more a case of getting his protege in!

That’s one part of my view….see below.

3 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I think that's the key:

Ashton + weak management = overspends & bloated squad; Ashton + competent management = success

And there is it summed up in a nutshell.  Thanks for putting it so succinctly.

That is the second part of my view.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

plus they rebuilt in League One. We can't afford to rebuild in the Championship as they did in League One.

We couldn’t even afford to rebuild in League One with the losses we incurred in the Champ.  That was why it was so important to stay in the Champ, which we negotiated well.

[Lrrr]

Well given he almost ruined Ipswich gambling everything on promotion last year I'd say criticism is still fair, he just got lucky this time. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Well given he almost ruined Ipswich gambling everything on promotion last year I'd say criticism is still fair, he just got lucky this time. 

Is that right? The accounts will be instructive.

[Gert Mare]

We were surprisingly in a similar position to Ipswich in December 2017 when we were top of the Championship and beating Man United.

We had ‘clubs in the bag’ which if we had reached the Premier League wouldn’t have been an issue. Unfortunately we had a a joker in charge of the team whose tactical excellence and studious knowledge was all in his own head. The Wolves game was the turning point and a good manager would have been able to regroup, focus and inspire his players. Unfortunately we went on a record breaking losing streak (and LJ did this twice, not once remember?) and failure to kick on (as well as Lansdown’s failure to back in the January transfer window) meant that the ultimate goal wasn’t achieved. The result has been years of struggling to stay within FFP. 

If Ipswich go up then they’ll get away with not having to be in a financial mess, but if they fail then expect to see the same turmoil that we have had to navigate.

[Lrrr]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

Is that right? The accounts will be instructive.

Was told every department which worked with the team would have to slash their budgets by 50% if they didn't go up

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Was told every department which worked with the team would have to slash their budgets by 50% if they didn't go up

Oof, thanks.

Shall make for very interesting reading when out. FFP or more a case of GameChanger drawing in their backing if no promotion?

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, Gert Mare said:

We were surprisingly in a similar position to Ipswich in December 2017 when we were top of the Championship and beating Man United.

We had ‘clubs in the bag’ which if we had reached the Premier League wouldn’t have been an issue. Unfortunately we had a a joker in charge of the team whose tactical excellence and studious knowledge was all in his own head. The Wolves game was the turning point and a good manager would have been able to regroup, focus and inspire his players. Unfortunately we went on a record breaking losing streak (and LJ did this twice, not once remember?) and failure to kick on (as well as Lansdown’s failure to back in the January transfer window) meant that the ultimate goal wasn’t achieved. The result has been years of struggling to stay within FFP. 

If Ipswich go up then they’ll get away with not having to be in a financial mess, but if they fail then expect to see the same turmoil that we have had to navigate.

Ipswich have quite a bit more margin for error than us tbh albeit Leeds and Southampton they will push hard.

I dunno how many sites have got 48 pts from 20 games at this level, not many!

Less still not being top and by a few points at that.

We should have made playoffs for sure though IMO.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Red_Alligator]

Nope.

Fair play to Ipswich, they're tearing it up. But I'm not interested in what Ashton might be contributing towards their success, Ipswich aren't my club. 

It's Ashton's time at City, and the well documented ramifications for my club that form my opinion of him. That won't change.

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

You have to go back to 2002, I just checked for a time Ipswich wouldnt be top at this stage with that points tally and even then it would be joint top. We're talking moderately record breaking stuff really.

[exAtyeoMax]

47 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We couldn’t even afford to rebuild in League One with the losses we incurred in the Champ.  That was why it was so important to stay in the Champ, which we negotiated well.

could we afford it now? 

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Oof, thanks.

Shall make for very interesting reading when out. FFP or more a case of GameChanger drawing in their backing if no promotion?

Not FFP (SCMP), just a realisation that they’d spent two seasons going for it, and would’ve had to tightened their belts as a result.

[KegCity]

3 hours ago, richwwtk said:

It included our first league chamionshop for 60 years....

From a league we shouldn’t have dropped into in the first place! We were in the championship when Lansdown took over, took a backwards step getting relegated, recovered by getting back into the championship and have got nowhere since. I’ll be the first to admit we recovered in style, it would be better if we hadn’t filled the squad with overpaid journeymen and not got relegated in the first place.

Not letting the stadium fall down to me is the bare minimum from the owner. I appreciate not every owner can say they’ve done that but it’s not a massive ask. Lansdown bailing himself out after losing big chunks of money isn’t much of an achievement to me either. We could of course be in a much worse position, but we could be in a much better one. We’ve seen enough “smaller” clubs not have to have a fire sale every summer just to tread water shoot past us into the Premier League.

[KegCity]

4 hours ago, transfer reader said:

As wa said to you, we had a better average finishing position than most of out history in that time.

You asked about silverware and we got that too.

You seem to want it both ways.

No I just don’t particularly value silverware that we won after getting relegated. We could have another run of consecutive relegations, but winning the national league wouldn’t make up for the initial failure.

[Davefevs]

Just now, exAtyeoMax said:

could we afford it now? 

Good question.

Possibly, but you’d be losing your best players and starting from near-scratch, and we are still have a big cost-base to absorb, especially on Lg1 TV Money and SL no longer wanting to fund losses / invest.

[Red-Robbo]

One thing you've gotta say about Ipswich, is - Ashton or no Ashton - they punch above their weight.

A town that's the 42nd largest in the UK - and that's when you include neighbouring communities like Woodbridge, actually a town in its own right.

Ipswich proper is smaller than Bath and other then prostitute murders is really only known for its football heritage.  They were non-league until 1938, but by 1960 Ramsay had them in the top tier. It's quite a story, for a small-town club. 

 

[Kid in the Riot]

11 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You have to go back to 2002, I just checked for a time Ipswich wouldnt be top at this stage with that points tally and even then it would be joint top. We're talking moderately record breaking stuff really.

McKenna has only lost 15 of his 103 games in charge there. It's a phenomenal run. 

As others have said, they play some lovely football too. I just watched their highlights from yesterday, and both goals were very nice. 

They score tonnes of goals, and good ones at that. 

[Wanderingred]

5 hours ago, richwwtk said:

How is it 25 years of under achieving? You would be hard pushed to find a 25 year period in our history where our average league placing was higher.

All that does is highlight the fact that we are serial underachievers and have done pretty much nothing of note for 120 years. I can’t believe there are still people trotting out the “be careful what you wish for” line when talking about our ownership. I just don't have the words to express how much I like this post!

[Redland]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Headhunted?

Or…

…used his time as CEO at Bristol City to sound out US Investors, ultimately for the benefit of another club.  Before you claim conspiracy, I wonder whether Gamechanger 2020 were pitched by Ashton to SL, but turned down.  The Florida trip coincided with NLS conferences (the tier below MLS) and the owners of Gamechanger own Phoenix FC (Phoenix Rising) of the NLS.

The other reason for 2+2, is that Ashton’s mentor Mike O’Leary is the Chairman of Ipswich, having been the same at West Brom and Oxford, where Ashton followed him.  And Ashton was also at Alcydon Ltd, O’Leary’s property company.

So less Headhunted, more a case of getting his protege in!

That’s one part of my view….see below.

And there is it summed up in a nutshell.  Thanks for putting it so succinctly.

That is the second part of my view.

Thanks for the insight. I wasn’t aware of the background to this.

[petehinton]

I’ve thanked the footballing gods every day he’s been gone, since the day he left. Vile bloke, both in terms of what he did to the club, and for how he generally just acted as a person in his time here. 
 

We may now have an absolute vacuum of personality and charisma leading the club now, but rather that than have that smarmy ***** anywhere near us. 

[cidercity1987]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Peter. A very different personality to Steve too. More of an extrovert and very chatty. I once spoke to him for a few minutes whilst we were both naked. 

Intimate knowledge of the Lansdown family and their dealings. In the know about everything City. Seen Peter Hargreaves naked.

Are you Peter Hargreaves?

[firstdivision]

5 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I posted a few days ago that I think the appointment of Manning was in a lot of ways a reaction to what’s happening at Ipswich, both in terms of it being the latest thing that brings success (see Luton) and that there would be a part of the Lansdowns who look at Mark Ashton in harness with a head coach and think “hey, we were right after all”

As Fevs said in that thread, the trouble is that’s viewing the outcome and not the process. It seems McKenna is just exceptionally good and following the same approach may not give the same result.

It’s not just Ipswich though, Silvio. Quite a few clubs are going for the younger coaching ‘guru’ type (eg, Swed and QPR. Indeed, Oxford to replace Manning). Brighton went down that route a while back. So too Swansea. 

[downendcity]

Antipathy to the Lansdowns has created a lot of revisionist fans.

Suddenly Ashton appears to be regarded as an unfairly maligned patsy. If this carries on Robbored will posting that Gary Johnson was our greatest ever manager! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

It’s not just Ipswich though, Silvio. Quite a few clubs are going for the younger coaching ‘guru’ type (eg, Swed and QPR. Indeed, Oxford to replace Manning). Brighton went down that route a while back. So too Swansea. 

 Correct. How old is Carrick too or is he a slightly different category.

Sunderland maybe going for a Swedish manager under 40, how old is Rooney another- checked he's 38.

Just Googled him, Corberan only 40. Russell Martin 37.

Kompany 37, Maresca 43.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[GlastonburyRed]

2 hours ago, fisherrich said:

People who I know who worked for HL, say John Hargreaves was all the brains behind the business. Makes sense to most. John H lived out near us for a while and came across as a very shrewd guy.

Peter! Chew Magna lad isn’t he, a whole lot richer than Steve L, possibly because he sticks to his garden & his equine stuff rather than pumping. Multiple millions into us. Great stories of him having a bottle of Sauvignon B to himself lunchtimes at HL. Simpler times!!!

Edited December 10, 2023 by GlastonburyRed

[Phileas Fogg]

5 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

It’s not just Ipswich though, Silvio. Quite a few clubs are going for the younger coaching ‘guru’ type (eg, Swed and QPR. Indeed, Oxford to replace Manning). Brighton went down that route a while back. So too Swansea. 

There seems to be lots of British managers approaching the end of their careers (Hodgson, Warnock, Pearson) and then lots of the 35-45 age bracket - but not as many in between that. 

It feels like in recent history there was plenty more mid-career managers on the circuit at our level (Gary J, Coppell, Cotterill, Dave Jones, Curbishley, Pardew,  Nigel Adkins, Owen Coyle).

I wonder if that, with clubs gravitating towards more of a ‘head coach’ style structure, that leaves that age group a bit out of the loop. They’re neither seen as progressive enough for the newer model nor experienced enough to be a ‘safe pair of hands’. 

[Supersonic Robin]

5 hours ago, richwwtk said:

How is it 25 years of under achieving? You would be hard pushed to find a 25 year period in our history where our average league placing was higher.

We haven't been wildly successful, I will grant you that but seeing as most of our time has been spent as a yoyo between Championship and League 1 level we are now firmly established as a mid table Championship club with a better platform than we have ever had to push on.

Be careful what you wish for when the Lansdowns move on. You might think there is disconnect between the club and the fans now, it will only get worse...

We are the biggest club in approximately the 7th biggest city in England. Despite that, we have never won a major trophy, never played in the Premier League, and have spent less than 10 years in the top flight of English football since our inception (and most of those years were pre-WW1).

There are very few (if any) clubs with our size and potential who have achieved so little. 

Unfortunately, the last 25 years is an extension of that failure to achieve. Yes, we've improved our facilities and become slightly more established in the Championship during that time. However, we're deliberating whether taking 25 years to go from "Bottom third Championship Club" to "Midtable Championship Club" constitutes achievement - the fact we even have to think about it shows that something isn't right.

Other clubs of a similar size/potential to us would (and do) laugh at some of the things we propose as successes.

[Davefevs]

44 minutes ago, Redland said:

Thanks for the insight. I wasn’t aware of the background to this.

I’ve spent a lot of hours researching….too many hours!!!