Bristol Clean Air Zone

[James54De]

1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

Batteries don't work like that. To increase range you'd need more batteries, heavier weight, less space, deceased efficiency. There's also the major problem that there aren't enough precious metals on the planet to create all the batteries required to power private transport, nor charging infrastructure to support them.

Electric cars, like their diesel & petrol counterparts are hugely damaging to the planet, the difference with electric being the damage released is at distance to the vehicle itself, but out of sight - out of mind, eh?  As with all the 'carbon offset' crap, there isn't sufficient capacity to trap CO2, plant trees or whatever harebrained scheme folks propose. Folks pollute as normal and salve their consciences by paying  levies that do precisely Sweet FA.

The solution is to ban private transport but with the state of public transport and public transport operatives that's a wholly unrealistic proposition.

First Point: The rapid development of battery technology renders your point completely invalid. Currently most battery’s are Lithium Ion, in the future who knows. Solid State batteries are supposedly the next big thing, giving longer life and immensely quick recharging times. Point being, we are at the end of development when it comes to petrol, we have barely scratched the surface of battery development and there are opportunities being explored in their thousands right now. 

Second Point: Yes, EV’s are only as good as the energy source of the electric. However over the past year 34% of British power production has be renewable, 17% nuclear and 42% gas, all far (very far) cleaner than our inefficient petrol or diesel engines. 

[Red-Robbo]

Those worrying about the run-out of lithium reserves this century should bear in mind that oil reserves are forecast to run out before lithium.

The question is how we wean ourselves off oil, not why we're doing it. 

[semblar]

On 02/12/2022 at 17:45, Barrs Court Red said:

Absolutely love my electric car.  It absolutely destroys all comers from a standing start at lights. 
 

what it doesn’t do well though, is motorway driving - you’ll get about 60% of the advertised range.  That’s a big issue, and I would imagine range will double each generation of vehicle. 

That depends on how you do the motorway driving. I can get to Alton Towers and back on a full charge if I stick at 65 on the motorway outside of all those 50mph roadworks... which is about 10 minutes longer in each direction even if it feels slow to begin with. Do the same trip hitting 80 on the motorway and I need a 30 minute charge... but I'd probably stop for a break anyway. My car's advertised range is 331 miles, I can definitely get over 300 in the summer, maybe 270-280 this time of year 

 

Edit: Agreed on the standing start - you'd need a supercar to beat even an average electric car...

Edited December 13, 2022 by semblar

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, James54De said:

First Point: The rapid development of battery technology renders your point completely invalid. Currently most battery’s are Lithium Ion, in the future who knows. Solid State batteries are supposedly the next big thing, giving longer life and immensely quick recharging times. Point being, we are at the end of development when it comes to petrol, we have barely scratched the surface of battery development and there are opportunities being explored in their thousands right now. 

Second Point: Yes, EV’s are only as good as the energy source of the electric. However over the past year 34% of British power production has be renewable, 17% nuclear and 42% gas, all far (very far) cleaner than our inefficient petrol or diesel engines. 

Batteries all work on the same principle, the only variant being the chemical composition of cathode, anode and substance acting as electrolyte. We know the elements in the periodic table, their properties and their availability. We also know there is no magic cure to producing compact, powerful, efficient and SAFE batteries. There will likely be marginal improvements, but nothing to reliably power long distance, fast, cold weather energy hungry transport even to the point at which carbons become too expensive to use. 

As I type 62% of UK power generation is fossil, renewables just over 10%.  If you're charging your electric car now its pie in the sky to think alternate sources are able to provide, notwithstanding 13% of UK electricity is at present being imported.

[italian dave]

Ten pages in, and Bristol ‘s clean air zone is starting to feel like the least of our problems.

[22A]

From Stoke's forum...https://oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/306738/bristol-clean-zone-charges-enter

its a ploy from Bristol fans too lead stoke further into the FFP quagmire by charging for the club coach!

[James54De]

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Batteries all work on the same principle, the only variant being the chemical composition of cathode, anode and substance acting as electrolyte. We know the elements in the periodic table, their properties and their availability. We also know there is no magic cure to producing compact, powerful, efficient and SAFE batteries. There will likely be marginal improvements, but nothing to reliably power long distance, fast, cold weather energy hungry transport even to the point at which carbons become too expensive to use. 

Solid State batteries are slated to be up to 50% more energy dense. Even then without the inevitable improvement on energy consumption that’s likely worth an extra 150 miles. 

 

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

As I type 62% of UK power generation is fossil, renewables just over 10%.  If you're charging your electric car now its pie in the sky to think alternate sources are able to provide, notwithstanding 13% of UK electricity is at present being imported.

As you type. Irrelevant compared to a yearly outlook. Let me remind you that >90% of petrol is fossil fuel, burning at a relatively low efficiency. 

[Lanterne Rouge]

22 minutes ago, 22A said:

From Stoke's forum...https://oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/306738/bristol-clean-zone-charges-enter

its a ploy from Bristol fans too lead stoke further into the FFP quagmire by charging for the club coach!

They can drop the players off at Failand and they can walk down and back.

[Ashtonboy]

I've entered about half a dozen different model petrol cars into the online app, for friends and family and haven't found a vehicle which will be charged,  including a15 year old Honda people carrier.

[RedRock]

Well, I’ve just bought an electric bicycle which feels like it would give my GSX1400 a good run for its money!

If that bicycle is anything to go by, the future is electric.

Was tempted to wait for the next generation 400-450 mile range cars but might put up with less now in exchange for being ‘green’ and the smooth, blisteringly fast power delivery. 

[redysteadygo]

I know nothing about EVs but a friend who has just bought a new one claims the predicted mileage on his screen is not affected by heated seats or steering wheel being switched on. But if he uses the car heater the predicted mileage scale just drops and drops. He's going to buy a pair of knee high fur lined boots.

[reddoh]

8 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Unless one wishes to travel any distance in a timely fashion.

I have driven to the south of spain and back with no problems

[pillred]

2 hours ago, RedRock said:

Well, I’ve just bought an electric bicycle which feels like it would give my GSX1400 a good run for its money!

If that bicycle is anything to go by, the future is electric.

Was tempted to wait for the next generation 400-450 mile range cars but might put up with less now in exchange for being ‘green’ and the smooth, blisteringly fast power delivery. 

I take it you have somewhere to charge your car like a garage or drive, because if you did not I doubt you would be so enthusiastic being at the mercy of public charging which at the moment can be problematic and very expensive compared to home charging, in my street of 35 houses 5 at most have an off street space, this is the problem at the moment nowhere near enough infrastructure to make me at this time confident of being able to make a longish journey that's why I will probably buy a self charging hybrid like the new Honda Civic and wait till the public charging capacity is much more evenly spread and regulated so people like me don't have to pay more to get around just because I don't live in a house with a drive at least fossil fuels cost the same for everyone. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

8 hours ago, James54De said:

Second Point: Yes, EV’s are only as good as the energy source of the electric. However over the past year 34% of British power production has be renewable, 17% nuclear and 42% gas, all far (very far) cleaner than our inefficient petrol or diesel engines. 

We have the national grid putting coal power plants on stand by, blackout tests being done and proposals to pay households to switch off, all this amongst record energy prices.

The demand from EVs is also likely to be pushing energy prices up even more which means more people can't afford to heat their homes. 

This EV revolution doesn't seem all that great to me. 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by W-S-M Seagull

[BTRFTG]

13 hours ago, reddoh said:

I have driven to the south of spain and back with no problems

Care to share how long it took, though God only knows who'd bother to drive to the south of Spain?

I do know there isn't an electric vehicle for sale in The UK that, if driven to the manufacturers recommendation,  would get us from home to AG and back without recharge, allowing us to use lights, radio, heater, or sat nav. I know because I've extensively researched when considering changing my car. To note the bits the manufacturers don't promote - try not to fully charge and discharge the battery (some recommend no more than 80 % charge,) try to avoid 'supercharging' as that degrades the battery every time, performance stats being based on low voltage trickle charging.

As it already takes us the best part of 4 hours each way another hour spent trying to find a charging point/waiting is a problem. Its hard enough finding a parking spot near AG let alone finding one with a charging point, because their aren't anywhere near enough. Friends who do drive electric cars, mostly only near their homes, are full of cautionary tales as to the 'charge neurosis' they suffer when power reserves dip below 50% given many charging points are either not for their vehicle type (how daft not to have a common standard,) or charging points ine located being out of action. Most EVs where I live direct toward my nearest charging point within 1.5 miles. The fact its a 4 mile, 50 minute journey, through 24/7 nose to tail traffic, through one of the business road tunnels in the country, a tunnel that will soon incur a toll (oh, and that's regularly closed for maintenance,) I'm not so sure I'd have confidence in believing what the gizmos telling me.

EVs have a use, but long distance travel isn't one of them.

[archie andrews]

Horse and cart the way forward soon.... 

[beaverface]

This sounds promising...

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/12/13/significant-breakthrough-this-new-sea-salt-battery-has-4-times-the-capacity-of-lithium

[And Its Smith]

32 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Care to share how long it took, though God only knows who'd bother to drive to the south of Spain?

I do know there isn't an electric vehicle for sale in The UK that, if driven to the manufacturers recommendation,  would get us from home to AG and back without recharge, allowing us to use lights, radio, heater, or sat nav. I know because I've extensively researched when considering changing my car. To note the bits the manufacturers don't promote - try not to fully charge and discharge the battery (some recommend no more than 80 % charge,) try to avoid 'supercharging' as that degrades the battery every time, performance stats being based on low voltage trickle charging.

As it already takes us the best part of 4 hours each way another hour spent trying to find a charging point/waiting is a problem. Its hard enough finding a parking spot near AG let alone finding one with a charging point, because their aren't anywhere near enough. Friends who do drive electric cars, mostly only near their homes, are full of cautionary tales as to the 'charge neurosis' they suffer when power reserves dip below 50% given many charging points are either not for their vehicle type (how daft not to have a common standard,) or charging points ine located being out of action. Most EVs where I live direct toward my nearest charging point within 1.5 miles. The fact its a 4 mile, 50 minute journey, through 24/7 nose to tail traffic, through one of the business road tunnels in the country, a tunnel that will soon incur a toll (oh, and that's regularly closed for maintenance,) I'm not so sure I'd have confidence in believing what the gizmos telling me.

EVs have a use, but long distance travel isn't one of them.

It does depend what car you have. Tesla are industry leading and I don’t recognise any of the issues you mention at all. 

[Red-Robbo]

15 hours ago, redysteadygo said:

I know nothing about EVs but a friend who has just bought a new one claims the predicted mileage on his screen is not affected by heated seats or steering wheel being switched on. But if he uses the car heater the predicted mileage scale just drops and drops. He's going to buy a pair of knee high fur lined boots.

 

I never understand what the deal is with heated seats. My hands and feet get cold in a cold car, not my arse!

[W-S-M Seagull]

41 minutes ago, beaverface said:

This sounds promising...

https://www.euronews.com/green/2022/12/13/significant-breakthrough-this-new-sea-salt-battery-has-4-times-the-capacity-of-lithium

And this is the problem with EVs. Everyone thinks they are green and clean, when really they are not. We just don't physically see it. 

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

It does depend what car you have. Tesla are industry leading and I don’t recognise any of the issues you mention at all. 

Not I'd ever spend that much on a car but in respect of 'long distance' I was pointed at The Tesla X, apparently their 'long range' car has the greatest range available of any standard EVs. My mate who knows about such things and (locally) drives a Tesla said to go for the cheapest (sic), most basic in the range and it is pretty basic having removed power and energy hungry niceties, not that's reflected in the price. That's 'advertised' as doing 333 miles between charges, which wouldn't get me AG and back. He cautioned that, 'real world' don't look to push it beyond 275 miles without charge. He also cautioned the small print in Tesla's contracts (remind you never own the battery or software,) re how the car should be driven and recharged. All metrics are transferred back to Tesla and should the car/battery fail they'll quickly look at the extent to which you've ignored the warnings they've placed in correct use of their product. I know non EV manufacturers do similar but they've less scope than EVs to act.

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I never understand what the deal is with heated seats. My hands and feet get cold in a cold car, not my arse!

Totally agree. My other half & kids love the things. I'd ban them. Lost count of the number of times I'm 10 minutes into a drive when focus shifts to why I'm sensing a sweaty arse coming on, only to realise she's left the heated seat option on.

[Peter1450]

Must be getting a diesel inferiority complex, but Tesla owners always look a little smug to me……….. having just looked up a few used prices( 4 yo model S) a snip at £78000 :laugh:, they’ve every reason too! Be sticking to my wife’s 3.0 gas guzzler that’s 22 years of age and still allowed to drive anywhere.

[RedLionLad]

18 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I never understand what the deal is with heated seats. My hands and feet get cold in a cold car, not my arse!

I have leather seats in my car and on days like this, a heated seat is a must.

[RedLionLad]

17 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Totally agree. My other half & kids love the things. I'd ban them. Lost count of the number of times I'm 10 minutes into a drive when focus shifts to why I'm sensing a sweaty arse coming on, only to realise she's left the heated seat option on.

The distinct smell of burning flesh…

[Ska Junkie]

23 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Totally agree. My other half & kids love the things. I'd ban them. Lost count of the number of times I'm 10 minutes into a drive when focus shifts to why I'm sensing a sweaty arse coming on, only to realise she's left the heated seat option on.

I've got the new Kuga and have a heated steering wheel. I thought I would never use it but it's spot on tbh.

[sh1t_ref_again]

Always gets me the EV sales patter of how green they are, maybe 100% efficient at using the electric (whilst batteries are new), but never no mention of the poor efficiency to produce the electricity in the first place, whilst nuclear and wind / PV are good, natural gas turbines are less than 40%, with all electric production suffering a further loss of approx 7% in transmission losses.

It all all about how you package it up as sell it.

Hydrogen fuel cells would appear to be the real answer, amazed they have not yet become mainstream, I seen a boiler working in an R&D lab of a boiler manufacturer 30+ years ago, so the technology has been around for a long time

[red panda]

As a man of a certain age, I'm very pleased with my Kia EV.  Very much cheaper than a Tesla.  I get the advertised range (280 miles in summer, less in winter) without having to change my driving habits or forego aircon/heating, radio or other mod cons.  It goes like the clappers.  And my embarrassingly frequent stops at motorway service stations are the perfect opportunity to top up the battery!