Bristol Clean Air Zone

[BTRFTG]

Folks appear to be signally missing the fundamental flaw in the policy.

If folks simply 'cough-up' (every pun intended,) the charge how much pollutant is removed from the air? Answer - NONE.

And to those who say folks will pay up, look at areas where charges have been in for some time. In London (over double the national average) around 1 in 20 vehicles on the road is untaxed, uninsured and registered incorrectly, so they don't pay charges. There's also a sizeable proportion of 'foreign' registered vehicles on the streets, including those driven by otherwise law abiding folks who 'play the system'. I live on an upmarket road and six of my neighbours have exotically registered, top of the range vehicles that incur no charges and collect non-traceable parking tickets like confetti. There are even foreign leasing companies that swap, flip and temporarily export vehicles just for this explicit purpose.  Those driving and parking anywhere in central London the daily charges amount to the better part of £100 per day (assuming you'd ever pay the reduced parking fine.)

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by BTRFTG

[Kid in the Riot]

27 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Folks appear to be signally missing the fundamental flaw in the policy.

If folks simply 'cough-up' (every pun intended,) the charge how much pollutant is removed from the air? Answer - NONE.

And to those who say folks will pay up, look at areas where charges have been in for some time. In London (over double the national average) around 1 in 20 vehicles on the road is untaxed, uninsured and registered incorrectly, so they don't pay charges. There's also a sizeable proportion of 'foreign' registered vehicles on the streets, including those driven by otherwise law abiding folks who 'play the system'. I live on an upmarket road and six of my neighbours have exotically registered, top of the range vehicles that incur no charges and collect non-traceable parking tickets like confetti. There are even foreign leasing companies that swap, flip and temporarily export vehicles just for this explicit purpose.  Those driving and parking anywhere in central London the daily charges amount to the better part of £100 per day (assuming you'd ever pay the reduced parking fine.)

People could choose to cough up, but £9 a day is quite prohibitive. More likely is people will avoid the area, or if they have the option use alternative transport. The London Congestion Zone has reduced pollutants by around 60%.

As for London's wealthy playing the system - no surprise there. 

[Red-Robbo]

45 minutes ago, spudski said:

They are going to have to find a better more sustainable way, than using lithium battery's. Very difficult and expensive to recycle. And apparently only 70 years left of lithium on the planet. You can imagine the price, problems as it gets scarcer. Sticking a plaster over a problem ATM.

 

 

Those 70 years of reserves are more than oil at expected rates on consumption increase, and lithium recycling technology has advanced significantly in the past decade. 

However, yeah, the focus is on powering EVs, renewable energy farms and phone batteries with less expensive materials than lithium.  Watch the very interesting video about aluminium ion batteries, recently posted in the Green Energy section of the politics bit of the forum. 

[spudski]

17 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Those 70 years of reserves are more than oil at expected rates on consumption increase, and lithium recycling technology has advanced significantly in the past decade. 

However, yeah, the focus is on powering EVs, renewable energy farms and phone batteries with less expensive materials than lithium.  Watch the very interesting video about aluminium ion batteries, recently posted in the Green Energy section of the politics bit of the forum. 

The technology to run sustainably and long term is already in out there.

It still comes down to money and profit.

If we truly wanted to change quickly we could.

Sadly influencial people still want to use up unsustainable resources and make profits.

This video shows what can be done with seawater. It can be used in all forms of transport. It's worth researching.

 

[Red-Robbo]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

The technology to run sustainably and long term is already in out there.

It still comes down to money and profit.

If we truly wanted to change quickly we could.

Sadly influencial people still want to use up unsustainable resources and make profits.

This video shows what can be done with seawater. It can be used in all forms of transport. It's worth researching.

 

 

Interestingly, lithium extraction from seawater is another cutting-edge technology being prototyped out there.

Even without climate change, we will have to make the switch from powering the world via coal and oil, so money is becoming available for ways to transition. 

[BTRFTG]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

People could choose to cough up, but £9 a day is quite prohibitive. More likely is people will avoid the area, or if they have the option use alternative transport. The London Congestion Zone has reduced pollutants by around 60%.

As for London's wealthy playing the system - no surprise there. 

You sound like Khan and where I live air quality has significantly declined under his tenure and will signally worsen when his idiotic Silvertown Tunnel scheme is introduced. You also miss the blindingly obvious. Take my regular trips to and from AG. Do I pollute central London? No, as it's impossible to access these days given traffic, where it is still permitted, is 24/7 gridlock along the few roads remaining open.  Do I cover an ADDITIONAL 120 POLLUTING miles through the suburbs and outer London? Sure as hell I must. Traffic and the pollution it causes doesn't decrease, it actually increases where displaced. 

[Kid in the Riot]

4 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

You sound like Khan and where I live air quality has significantly declined under his tenure and will signally worsen when his idiotic Silvertown Tunnel scheme is introduced. You also miss the blindingly obvious. Take my regular trips to and from AG. Do I pollute central London? No, as it's impossible to access these days given traffic, where it is still permitted, is 24/7 gridlock along the few roads remaining open.  Do I cover an ADDITIONAL 120 POLLUTING miles through the suburbs and outer London? Sure as hell I must. Traffic and the pollution it causes doesn't decrease, it actually increases where displaced. 

Interesting you go straight to mentioning Khan. The LDN congestion zone was brought in in 2003, a full 13 years before he became London Mayor. 

Fact is, dangerous levels of air pollutants need to be dealt with, by law. As I'm sure you know full well, the impact of air pollutants in inner city areas is far more dangerous than in rural/semi rural areas where most motorways are located. 

[Victory Park Reds]

I’ve been reading this thread with interest.Fair play to many of you involved.Otib definitely has some very clever people with great knowledge.

Despite that I think the whole scheme is shite and marvellous Marvin is an absolute fraud who has spunked away millions on various schemes.

Green mayor Marvin my arse.2 words Mr Mayor- Brislington Meadows!! Remember when you wanted to be elected again.***

[Bristol Rob]

58 minutes ago, Victory Park Reds said:

I’ve been reading this thread with interest.Fair play to many of you involved.Otib definitely has some very clever people with great knowledge.

Despite that I think the whole scheme is shite and marvellous Marvin is an absolute fraud who has spunked away millions on various schemes.

Green mayor Marvin my arse.2 words Mr Mayor- Brislington Meadows!! Remember when you wanted to be elected again.***

Which apparently he doesn't!! (want to be elected again).

Still, what a legacy he leaves. The fact you can get to the arena on an underground train and enjoy your journey back to any one of the 2000 affordable homes he built is surely the mark of truly great man.

Oh wait, no. His legacy is that he once watched two people play a game of chess in City Hall. 

[Barrs Court Red]

4 hours ago, Victory Park Reds said:

I’ve been reading this thread with interest.Fair play to many of you involved.Otib definitely has some very clever people with great knowledge.

Despite that I think the whole scheme is shite and marvellous Marvin is an absolute fraud who has spunked away millions on various schemes.

Green mayor Marvin my arse.2 words Mr Mayor- Brislington Meadows!! Remember when you wanted to be elected again.***

He should face some sort of investigation for that. Committed a government body to pay millions of tax payers money, only to do a u-turn.

[Red-Robbo]

11 hours ago, Barrs Court Red said:

He should face some sort of investigation for that. Committed a government body to pay millions of tax payers money, only to do a U-turn.

 

I guess that's what a lot of mayors do. Boris Johnson as Mayor of London spent £34m on consultations over his garden bridge proposal, before dropping it. 

[italian dave]

22 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Folks appear to be signally missing the fundamental flaw in the policy.

If folks simply 'cough-up' (every pun intended,) the charge how much pollutant is removed from the air? Answer - NONE.

And to those who say folks will pay up, look at areas where charges have been in for some time. In London (over double the national average) around 1 in 20 vehicles on the road is untaxed, uninsured and registered incorrectly, so they don't pay charges. There's also a sizeable proportion of 'foreign' registered vehicles on the streets, including those driven by otherwise law abiding folks who 'play the system'. I live on an upmarket road and six of my neighbours have exotically registered, top of the range vehicles that incur no charges and collect non-traceable parking tickets like confetti. There are even foreign leasing companies that swap, flip and temporarily export vehicles just for this explicit purpose.  Those driving and parking anywhere in central London the daily charges amount to the better part of £100 per day (assuming you'd ever pay the reduced parking fine.)

 

 

22 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

People could choose to cough up, but £9 a day is quite prohibitive. More likely is people will avoid the area, or if they have the option use alternative transport. The London Congestion Zone has reduced pollutants by around 60%.

As for London's wealthy playing the system - no surprise there. 

Agree 100% @BTRFTG. It’s always seemed to me to be a pretty ineffective ‘clean air’ scheme that simply allows people to pollute if they choose to pay to do so. 

I drive through Europe from time to time and have had to deal with clean air zones there more and more often in recent years. There are two significant differences that apply in the vast majority of cases there.

Firstly, lots of them come into operation if and when air quality levels hit certain thresholds. In other words they address the problem when it occurs.

Secondly, pretty much all of them deal with it by simply banning vehicles, not by allowing them to continue to pollute as long as they pay. 

Isn’t the point of the “congestion” zone different to the point of a “clean air “ zone? I don’t know what the impact of London’s clean air zone has been in terms of pollutants. That’s much more recent than the congestion zone, so maybe there’s less evidence?

I don’t know London as well as you do, but it strikes me that the congestion zone area in central London is now pretty much as congested as it ever was, albeit with fewer vehicles, because they’ve reduced pretty much everything to single lane traffic with traffic lights every 100m that stay red 90% of the time.

I think the point you make Kid is often forgotten: the mayors always get the blame for this, whether it’s Johnson, Khan or Rees: the reality is that they are reacting to legislation that imposes requirements on them by governments who simply pass the buck and do very little to help or support. So you get Liam Fox - whose party has been in government for over a decade and is responsible for the clean air legislation that requires these zones - sitting there on TV last week trying to score political points by criticising the Bristol zone. Hypocrite. 

[Judda]

On 05/11/2021 at 23:35, Sweeneys Penalties said:

thats me buggered then. 

Mine is petrol 04 plate and is no charge...

[TonyTonyTony]

I fail to see how looking to improve the environment we live in is a bad thing. You must have a very old car if this affects you tbh. 

[pillred]

2 hours ago, Judda said:

Mine is petrol 04 plate and is no charge...

Are you sure? I thought only petrol cars built 2006 onwards were exempt. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

3 hours ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I fail to see how looking to improve the environment we live in is a bad thing. You must have a very old car if this affects you tbh. 

My car is 9 years old. I pay 20 quid a year tax on it yet I have to pay the charge. 

[pillred]

29 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

My car is 9 years old. I pay 20 quid a year tax on it yet I have to pay the charge. 

Diesel I presume as petrol cars that age are exempt. If so why not just part exchange it or sell it and buy a petrol car of similar value I mean a car from 2006/ 2010 shouldn't cost too much then you can drive around and not have to pay the charge.

Edited December 1, 2022 by pillred
Punctuation.

[Kid in the Riot]

8 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

My car is 9 years old. I pay 20 quid a year tax on it yet I have to pay the charge. 

Snap. It's due to the amount of nitrogen dioxide (NO2) produced by diesel cars which irritates the lungs of people with breathing problems, such as asthma. It's not really a problem driving them in rural areas, like on motorways, as there is space for the harmful particles to dissipate. But in urban settings, the particles are trapped between buildings on either side of the road and thus get breathed in by pedestrians walking alongside the road. That is why yours and my cars are discouraged from entering the clean air zone, via the charge. 

[mattjb]

30 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Snap. It's due to the amount of nitrogen dioxide (NO2) produced by diesel cars which irritates the lungs of people with breathing problems, such as asthma. It's not really a problem driving them in rural areas, like on motorways, as there is space for the harmful particles to dissipate. But in urban settings, the particles are trapped between buildings on either side of the road and thus get breathed in by pedestrians walking alongside the road. That is why yours and my cars are discouraged from entering the clean air zone, via the charge. 

You’d think there was something that could be retro fitted to some of the older diesels to make them run cleaner ? Maybe there is but I guess they just want diesels off the road.

[archie andrews]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Snap. It's due to the amount of nitrogen dioxide (NO2) produced by diesel cars which irritates the lungs of people with breathing problems, such as asthma. It's not really a problem driving them in rural areas, like on motorways, as there is space for the harmful particles to dissipate. But in urban settings, the particles are trapped between buildings on either side of the road and thus get breathed in by pedestrians walking alongside the road. That is why yours and my cars are discouraged from entering the clean air zone, via the charge. 

Ruddy hell... Imagine if you lived by the bus station in the 70s even 80s..

[Eddie Hitler]

40 minutes ago, archie andrews said:

Ruddy hell... Imagine if you lived by the bus station in the 70s even 80s..

 

The effect of having lead in petrol was far far worse making people with high exposure stupid and violent; this was probably the cause of the rise in football hooliganism and glam rock.

 

A meta-analysis of studies examining the relationship between lead and conduct problems arrived at a similar conclusion, suggesting that the magnitude of the relationship between lead exposure and behavior is comparable to the relationship between lead exposure and I.Q.^[3] While the scientific literature suggests there is a relationship between lead exposure and behavioral issues such as delinquency and criminality, directly relating these observations to the decrease in overall criminality is more difficult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–crime_hypothesis

 

The last country to use it, Algeria, finally stopped last year.

https://news.sky.com/story/leaded-petrol-phased-out-in-the-algeria-the-last-country-to-stop-using-the-fuel-12395326

[Ska Junkie]

12 hours ago, pillred said:

Are you sure? I thought only petrol cars built 2006 onwards were exempt. 

My lad has a 2005 type R and that passes too.

[weepywall]

2 hours ago, mattjb said:

You’d think there was something that could be retro fitted to some of the older diesels to make them run cleaner ? Maybe there is but I guess they just want diesels off the road.

There is something you can fit to reduce emissions,  I know someone who had it done on a VW Transporter, think it cost about £1700 tho.

[Eddie Hitler]

27 minutes ago, weepywall said:

There is something you can fit to reduce emissions,  I know someone who had it done on a VW Transporter, think it cost about £1700 tho.

 

Diesel Particulate Filter I would guess.  I thought most diesel cars had them now but the wording below says some don't.

 

While no jurisdiction has explicitly made filters mandatory, the increasingly stringent emissions regulations that engine manufactures must meet mean that eventually all on-road diesel engines will be fitted with them.^[14] In the European Union, filters are expected to be necessary to meet the Euro.VI heavy truck engine emissions regulations currently under discussion and planned for the 2012-2013 time frame. In 2000, in anticipation of the future Euro 5 regulations PSA Peugeot Citroën became the first company to make filters standard on passenger cars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_filter

[Barrs Court Red]

2 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

The effect of having lead in petrol was far far worse making people with high exposure stupid and violent; this was probably the cause of the rise in football hooliganism and glam rock.

 

A meta-analysis of studies examining the relationship between lead and conduct problems arrived at a similar conclusion, suggesting that the magnitude of the relationship between lead exposure and behavior is comparable to the relationship between lead exposure and I.Q.^[3] While the scientific literature suggests there is a relationship between lead exposure and behavioral issues such as delinquency and criminality, directly relating these observations to the decrease in overall criminality is more difficult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–crime_hypothesis

 

The last country to use it, Algeria, finally stopped last year.

https://news.sky.com/story/leaded-petrol-phased-out-in-the-algeria-the-last-country-to-stop-using-the-fuel-12395326

A podcast I listen to put forward the notion that Lead is a major factor why there were so many serial killers in the states during the 70s and 80s, and peoples violent behaviour in general. 
 

 

[freezer]

Surprised that my 2004 petrol Merc is exempt but thems the rules.

[Bristol Rob]

If nothing else comes from this thread, one thing I have learnt is that very few of us are what was once called 'Petrol Heads' as none of us seem to be moaning that our special edition super-fast Japanese import is subject to the charge.

 

 

 

 

[italian dave]

11 hours ago, freezer said:

Surprised that my 2004 petrol Merc is exempt but thems the rules.

The rules rely on the Euro emissions standard of the car and the dates they quote are the dates on which that standard became compulsory. It”s possible that a particular model was compliant with a higher standard before it became compulsory.

So, Euro 4 is the lowest standard that’s exempt. That became compulsory in 2006, but I’d guess that Mercedes were building cars to that standard in 2004. 

[italian dave]

On 29/11/2022 at 11:11, frenchred said:

I believe Liverpool city council had the balls not to implement it after a huge backlash in manchester

Have you seen the size of the proposed Manchester one though? We’re not talking Manchester City centre. Others on here will have more idea, but every time we’ve stopped off on the way to an away game anywhere in Lancashire this past year we seem to end up in the proposed zone. Sometimes in quite rural areas, sometimes in towns miles from Manchester. 

[pillred]

2 hours ago, italian dave said:

Have you seen the size of the proposed Manchester one though? We’re not talking Manchester City centre. Others on here will have more idea, but every time we’ve stopped off on the way to an away game anywhere in Lancashire this past year we seem to end up in the proposed zone. Sometimes in quite rural areas, sometimes in towns miles from Manchester. 

With the sale of new ICE cars being stopped after 2030 and now older cars being charged to drive in towns it is really beginning to look like the government are trying to price a large percentage of the population off the roads. I mean how is the average man or woman going to come up with the money to buy an electric car I know there will be second hand ones available by then but have you seen the price of replacement batteries? the sort of cars working class people will be able to afford the batteries will be coming to the end of there useful life.