Here he is. The Messiah is to blame

[REDOXO]

Steve Lansdown would like a knighthood! If he gets one it remains to be seen.

Bristol City will not be sold separately from Bristol Sport or the HPC AND any other asset attached to BS it would make things way to difficult for all concerned .

Would Steve Lansdown break even if he sold the lot right now. Who knows! Would he get any kind profit on ROI. Who the hell knows  

Mr Lansdown as the defacto senior executive carry’s the can for the failures and successes. The failure to bring in and then back the right bloke and the bringing in of the wrong bloke and showering the **** with the clubs money that eventually lead to where we are is clear. However when you get that rich turning profit is a much lesser motivation, if it were the bloke certainly would not have bought a third division football club, over a period where global equity values quadrupled  

 

 

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

Is the correct answer!

I was not insulting or rude to you and never have been. I guess you might ( as in maybe) not be used to be called out on an opinion you put forward.  I suspect it was the bit about being asleep at the wheel? The whole point is that it isn't easy to get planning and there will have been nothing easy in this case.

A few dog walkers managing to create the biggest village green in Europe and prevent one of the most ambitious stadium complex with all its employment opportunity and benefit for the city of Bristol. Steve lost.

 

I’m perfectly used to people having a different opinion to me and calling that difference out.  Yes, it was that, I’m happy to say I reacted to that. Sometimes we post to that.  I’m happy to admit that.  Wish others could too!

[pongo88]

On 11/11/2022 at 09:56, BigAl&Toby said:

 

How can anyone be so successful in part of their life and make, what seems  to be, an almighty **** up in another.

 

Steve Lansdown was so successful in his business life because he understood the business. He started with just a concept, in partnership with Peter Hargreaves, developed it and as the business grew he delegated various aspects to the experts he employed in senior positions. With football he knew diddly squat and embarked on a mixture of hands on tinkering and delegating to Mark Ashton. Both options were a mistake, which I’m sure he’s now realised 

[IAmNick]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

My question is - would he have got the land and the planning permission without doing the sports stuff?  If I was completely cynical one might argue the sports stuff could be seen as a “back-hander” to the council?

Maybe not, but I think that's sightly putting the cart before the horse as he bought that land afterwards. There are plenty of other places he could build houses and make a profit that don't require a football club.

[BigAl&Toby]

1 hour ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Really really are such a fantasist and come out with any b0ll0cks to try and prove you point

Exaggerated to make a point. Don’t take it too seriously. Surprised you’d think that such a “fantasist” would seriously think such bollocks.

Marv wouldn’t have had such a conversation with Steve. Why would he?

Why would Steve? He’d have his agents do all that. His advisors. You know the ones. They who’m part of those Merchant Venturers.

Used to be jockeys on Black Horses.

[BigAl&Toby]

19 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Steve Lansdown would like a knighthood! If he gets one it remains to be seen.

Bristol City will not be sold separately from Bristol Sport or the HPC AND any other asset attached to BS it would make things way to difficult for all concerned .

Would Steve Lansdown break even if he sold the lot right now. Who knows! Would he get any kind profit on ROI. Who the hell knows  

Mr Lansdown as the defacto senior executive carry’s the can for the failures and successes. The failure to bring in and then back the right bloke and the bringing in of the wrong bloke and showering the **** with the clubs money that eventually lead to where we are is clear. However when you get that rich turning profit is a much lesser motivation, if it were the bloke certainly would not have bought a third division football club, over a period where global equity values quadrupled  

 

 

A knighthood you say. 

**** me. Let’s hope “the ladies” choose better headwear……

[WarksRobin]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

My question is - would he have got the land and the planning permission without doing the sports stuff?  If I was completely cynical one might argue the sports stuff could be seen as a “back-hander” to the council?

It’s not a back hander. The technical term is the “planning balance” whereby the harm from a development can be outweighed by benefits such as biodiversity net gain, contributions to social infrastructure and need. It may seem grubby but it is a genuine part of our planning system.

[The Fat Controller]

32 minutes ago, BigAl&Toby said:

A knighthood you say. 

**** me. Let’s hope “the ladies” choose better headwear……

Post like this say far more about you than they ever could about Steve Lansdown.

[Barrs Court Red]

42 minutes ago, BigAl&Toby said:

A knighthood you say. 

**** me. Let’s hope “the ladies” choose better headwear……

Pathetic.  

[BTRFTG]

14 hours ago, BigAl&Toby said:

Morning @BTRFTG

In a word? Yes. I spent many years reading, reviewing and analysing accounts. Far too many years.

I know from those years that accounts show - and hide - a multitude of things. Remember Enron?

Multi-layered is multi-layered for several reasons. As is being registered offshore. Neither necessarily untoward or illegal, but done for a reason.

And losses. Ah yes. Losses. I’m quite happy if my business shows a loss. Why? Well like Steve I don’t need to demonstrate a profit to a lender. I don’t need to borrow.

And making a loss? Well that’s deductible and offset elsewhere…….

But it boils down to this. 

If Steve is as successful as he undoubtedly is, and if he’s as intelligent as he undoubtedly is, why oh ******* why would he be happy or prepared to keep burning those fivers?

Now common sense - well my deluded and cider fuelled version of it - according to some on here - is that he’s got a plan. An exit plan. Call it a non-philanthropic motive.

Freehold acquisition. One of only a few things that if bought and sold right will guarantee a return on investment.

Maybe, just maybe, Pula Holdings - in itself an interesting name for a company - reckon the Lansdowns used to go on a Yugotours coach from St Mary Redcliffe back in the day - was his vehicle. To acquire swathes of South Bristol…….

Bit like a Trojan Horse……

Deluded. Delirious. Disrespectful. Yep. All of them.

But anyway. I might be wrong. I might be right. We’ll both be dead and buried before Steve, Junior or Junior’s Junior cash in they chips……..

Score prediction for Watford? Wouldn’t be so brash. But **** me let’s hope we win.

If we don’t I guess you’ll still be happy. Happy that when you went to the loo at half-time you didn’t have to stand in such dreadful toilets, happy you could enjoy an amateur performance - not on the green stuff but on that stage out the back - and could have a nice pulled pork sandwich……

Oh yes. Ashton Gate Stadium. Once the home of simply a long established and at times a reasonably successful football club. Now? A multi-faceted income generating cash machine.

Good old Steve.

Accounts as those published in the UK hide nothing and if they attempt so to do you can easily spot where things don't add up.

Indeed I remember Enron, perhaps a tad to much. Clearly you don't as you'd understand how the toxic mixtures of SPVs and jurisdictions not requiring open disclosure allowed that scam to flourish.

As for the rest of your delusion, its not worthy of comment.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Doing a bit of research and I didn't realise just how much owners could and do put in. Talking cash, equity, loans, shares etc not revenue.

Brighton was mentioned- if accurate Bloom makes SL look a bit of a pauper.

Shahid Khan even more so (Fulham) albeit he purchased them in the PL and they have had PL or Parachute Payments ever since 2001-02 but Bloom is a good comparison.

Would be interested to know just how much Bloom put in, between 2009 and 2017.

https://theathletic.com/3220632/2022/03/31/fulham-accounts-explained-93m-loss-khans-investment-up-to-440m-treading-fine-line-on-ffp/

If SL put in £217m in 20 years...well interested to see how much Bloom put in between time of takeover and promotion to PL.

There is no doubt that Bloom has done things very well there but a breakdown of how and when he invested would be instructive.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Something between £190-280m in those 1st 8 years!? Bloom into Brighton etc that is...possibly the aggregation of loans and share capital.

£336m in Directors loans from 2009-10 to 2020-21.

Then unless I'm double counting, a further £95m in shares etc again from 2009-10 to 2020-21.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[BigAl&Toby]

On 12/11/2022 at 21:44, BTRFTG said:

Accounts as those published in the UK hide nothing and if they attempt so to do you can easily spot where things don't add up.

Indeed I remember Enron, perhaps a tad to much. Clearly you don't as you'd understand how the toxic mixtures of SPVs and jurisdictions not requiring open disclosure allowed that scam to flourish.

As for the rest of your delusion, its not worthy of comment.

@BTRFTG time to reignite the debate now we have some upto date financials to ponder.

Let’s leave @Davefevsand @Mr Popodopolous to do so some serious analysis around FFP and who was signed and sold for what.

Let’s enjoy better facilities at AG - from Airblades to Pulled Pork.

Let’s continue to enjoy whatever else it is you fancy standing behind to justify your lemming-type view that Mr L has done good.

But ask yourself this. Who’s the constant in this shit show? Why stick at it? Because he can? Because he wants to make Bristol Proud? Because he’s a good egg? 

Or because the golden goose hasn’t quite yet squeezed out that Golden Egg - that takes me back - that little restaurant on the Triangle

I understand Enron very well. Not everything included within accounts is as obvious as it seems. And of course there’s a lot not included in accounts that, if illuminated, show a very different picture.

But hey. If you’re happy with how things are then who am I to suggest anything different.

[Rob k]

1 hour ago, BigAl&Toby said:

@BTRFTG time to reignite the debate now we have some upto date financials to ponder.

Let’s leave @Davefevsand @Mr Popodopolous to do so some serious analysis around FFP and who was signed and sold for what.

Let’s enjoy better facilities at AG - from Airblades to Pulled Pork.

Let’s continue to enjoy whatever else it is you fancy standing behind to justify your lemming-type view that Mr L has done good.

But ask yourself this. Who’s the constant in this shit show? Why stick at it? Because he can? Because he wants to make Bristol Proud? Because he’s a good egg? 

Or because the golden goose hasn’t quite yet squeezed out that Golden Egg - that takes me back - that little restaurant on the Triangle

I understand Enron very well. Not everything included within accounts is as obvious as it seems. And of course there’s a lot not included in accounts that, if illuminated, show a very different picture.

But hey. If you’re happy with how things are then who am I to suggest anything different.

Why does he need to have a ‘lemming type view’ if it differs from yours? For what it’s worth i dont believe SL has got much right from a football perspective but firmly believe his heart is in the right place.  He got completely blinded by Ashton and is suspect that’s dented his pride a bit as now paying the full price of his time here.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, BigAl&Toby said:

I understand Enron very well. Not everything included within accounts is as obvious as it seems. And of course there’s a lot not included in accounts that, if illuminated, show a very different picture.

Again you use Enron as a comparator, which seems to be an error of scale at the least. What exactly is the similarity and are you intending to imply similar wrongdoing, as some might read it as such?

I assume you are not unless you have evidence to the contrary but it might be wise to confirm your intention.

[BTRFTG]

3 hours ago, BigAl&Toby said:

@BTRFTG time to reignite the debate now we have some upto date financials to ponder.

Let’s leave @Davefevsand @Mr Popodopolous to do so some serious analysis around FFP and who was signed and sold for what.

Let’s enjoy better facilities at AG - from Airblades to Pulled Pork.

Let’s continue to enjoy whatever else it is you fancy standing behind to justify your lemming-type view that Mr L has done good.

But ask yourself this. Who’s the constant in this shit show? Why stick at it? Because he can? Because he wants to make Bristol Proud? Because he’s a good egg? 

Or because the golden goose hasn’t quite yet squeezed out that Golden Egg - that takes me back - that little restaurant on the Triangle

I understand Enron very well. Not everything included within accounts is as obvious as it seems. And of course there’s a lot not included in accounts that, if illuminated, show a very different picture.

But hey. If you’re happy with how things are then who am I to suggest anything different.

The thing about deluded conspiracists is their wholesale lack of attachment to reality. 

So let's give you a chance to redeem yourself. Specifically, explain how SL will turn this hemorrhaging basketcase into your 'golden goose/cash cow'? When and by what means myst he act given the accounts, as audited by professional accountants, carry a heavy caveat as to the ongoing financial support SL MUST provide to keep City an ongoing concern. Accountants may know or care nothing about football, but accounts they live and breathe.

So go on, specifics, how and by what mechanism will alchemist Lansdown turn lead to gold?

Excuse me if I don't hold my breath waiting for a reply.

[BigAl&Toby]

43 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

The thing about deluded conspiracists is their wholesale lack of attachment to reality. 

So let's give you a chance to redeem yourself. Specifically, explain how SL will turn this hemorrhaging basketcase into your 'golden goose/cash cow'? When and by what means myst he act given the accounts, as audited by professional accountants, carry a heavy caveat as to the ongoing financial support SL MUST provide to keep City an ongoing concern. Accountants may know or care nothing about football, but accounts they live and breathe.

So go on, specifics, how and by what mechanism will alchemist Lansdown turn lead to gold?

Excuse me if I don't hold my breath waiting for a reply.

You won’t have to hold your breath for long @BTRFTG

I know you like my cash cow analogy so here’s another with a dairy theme…..

Ever looked at the costs of production of a litre of milk and compared it to how much the average farmer gets from the producer? And wondered why some still carry on as their losses mount up?

I have. Over many years. I even once went to Poland to see how dairy farmers there did what dairy farmers do here.

And that showed that the costs of production were greater than what the farmer got from most producers.

But they carry on milking away. Why? They often said it was generational. But those tenant farmers were usually the first to pack up.

Those though who owned their acres? They struggled on, making loss after loss, and watched as those same acres increased in value.

As one old boy said to me once, “they ain’t making any more of it”……

Bit like the accounts show I think. Costs more than a £1 for Steve to get a £1 back….. Lunacy……

Unless of course, like they farmers, the on sheet and off sheet assets are valued at a different amount than legitimately stated, aren’t even on the balance sheet in question, or are growing in value at a greater rate than those classes.

But you’re right. I might well be deluded. Or I might not. 

Only time will tell. Whenever “our farmer” cashes in. Or his son does. Or his son’s son. And by then I’m guessing we might both be dead and buried. Or cremated.

But you still haven’t answered me this. Is it beyond any degree of reasonableness that the scenario I suggest might, just might, be possible?

I keep pumping cash into a loss making business whilst at the same time enjoy the freehold value growth in them there greenfields?

[BigAl&Toby]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

Again you use Enron as a comparator, which seems to be an error of scale at the least. What exactly is the similarity and are you intending to imply similar wrongdoing, as some might read it as such?

I assume you are not unless you have evidence to the contrary but it might be wise to confirm your intention.

@chinapig my reference to Enron is a simple one. It’s not meant to imply fraud or anything close to that.

It’s a far simpler one. Accounts can present different pictures to different people. 

They may well be signed off or audited but it’s the questions that follow and the answers that are given that are really interesting - and illuminating.

Questions perhaps that no one wanted to ask. About a scenario that no one ever thought possible….

Why would you continue spending £1.50 to get £1 back? Why wouldn’t you learn from your past mistakes and do something to make sure they didn’t happen again?

Mind you I’ve been married and divorced 3 times, so what do I know?

 

[Sir Geoff]

4 hours ago, BigAl&Toby said:

@BTRFTG time to reignite the debate now we have some upto date financials to ponder.

Let’s leave @Davefevsand @Mr Popodopolous to do so some serious analysis around FFP and who was signed and sold for what.

Let’s enjoy better facilities at AG - from Airblades to Pulled Pork.

Let’s continue to enjoy whatever else it is you fancy standing behind to justify your lemming-type view that Mr L has done good.

But ask yourself this. Who’s the constant in this shit show? Why stick at it? Because he can? Because he wants to make Bristol Proud? Because he’s a good egg? 

Or because the golden goose hasn’t quite yet squeezed out that Golden Egg - that takes me back - that little restaurant on the Triangle

I understand Enron very well. Not everything included within accounts is as obvious as it seems. And of course there’s a lot not included in accounts that, if illuminated, show a very different picture.

But hey. If you’re happy with how things are then who am I to suggest anything different.

You do realise that any new owner is still restricted by FFP and may not be as generous in bailing us out each season. Apart from poor managerial appointments what is your gripe with SL. ?

[chinapig]

6 minutes ago, BigAl&Toby said:

@chinapig my reference to Enron is a simple one. It’s not meant to imply fraud or anything close to that.

It’s a far simpler one. Accounts can present different pictures to different people. 

They may well be signed off or audited but it’s the questions that follow and the answers that are given that are really interesting - and illuminating.

Questions perhaps that no one wanted to ask. About a scenario that no one ever thought possible….

Why would you continue spending £1.50 to get £1 back? Why wouldn’t you learn from your past mistakes and do something to make sure they didn’t happen again?

Mind you I’ve been married and divorced 3 times, so what do I know?

 

Ok, glad you have made that clear if only to keep m'learned friends at bay!

But you don't set out what post-accounts questions you would ask nor set out, preferably with some objective evidence, exactly how SL is going to be quids in.

Who knows maybe you're right but generalties, analogies with Enron and dairy farmers, and hints as to what may be going on don't make a strong case.

[sh1t_ref_again]

21 minutes ago, BigAl&Toby said:

 

Why would you continue spending £1.50 to get £1 back? Why wouldn’t you learn from your past mistakes and do something to make sure they didn’t happen again?

Mind you I’ve been married and divorced 3 times, so what do I know?

 

Its called owning a football club, most run at significant losses, so luckily SL is not in it to make money, although I believe long term he always wanted to make City sustainable so the club will not go bankrupt. If profit was his motive, he would have just left his money as shares of HL

As the old saying goes, how do you make a small fortune out of football, you start with a large one

[Mr Popodopolous]

I will take on the point of @BigAl&Toby a little.

No wrongdoing we all agree on that!

Interesting point you raise about valuation or otherwise- because the Tangible Fixed Assets (Stadium, Training Ground) and probably more.

Fully legitimate of course. The accounting policy is being applird consistently.

However I fancy that the Fair Value of these in 2022 markedly outweighs the cost- especially as land itself cannot lose value.

For perspective, the Bet365 Stadium and Stoke's relatively dated at that time training ground went for a combined gross £80--85m in May 2021. Wonder what ours would be worth?

Edited November 18, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

That said until such time as SL sells up, these gains as I probably said last year are paper only. Theoretical but wholly unrealised. 

SL still loses money year on year for as long as more cash goes in than comes out.

[BTRFTG]

5 hours ago, BigAl&Toby said:

But you still haven’t answered me this. Is it beyond any degree of reasonableness that the scenario I suggest might, just might, be possible?

Answer is simple - Yes, wholly beyond reasonableness.

Using your analogy the value of assets listed in the acvounts is already overstated using the type of bespoke conventions that accounting permits but the real world doesn't. What's AG worth? Nowhere near as much as stated, reason being who other than our potless neighbours wants a football stadium, or any stadium for that matter,  in Bristol? Residual land value is nowhere near what folks imagine once clearance & CIL/ S106s kick in.

You talk of 'greenfields' but where they and what have they to do with City Holdings? Lansdown's personal assets aren't dependant upon City hence have nothing to do with him propping up the club.

So I again ask, specifically, what does Lansdown have to do to access your mythical 'cash cow' as I'm sure he'll be all ears?

[robin_unreliant]

On 11/11/2022 at 22:18, gl2 said:

ok each to their own but LJ and MA didnt bring themselves here they were invited ,by the king of all our recruitment messes.

I'm no fan of MA. However, I am sure the model he followed was set by SL. 

Sell players at the top of their value. Re-invest in cheap, young replacements with the potential to grow their value significantly. 

You don't have to be a genius to see the parallel with Steve's approach to the stock market. MA wasted it on poor choice of player but my firm conviction is that the failed strategy was SL's idea. 

[BTRFTG]

5 hours ago, BigAl&Toby said:

@chinapig my reference to Enron is a simple one. It’s not meant to imply fraud or anything close to that.

It’s a far simpler one. Accounts can present different pictures to different people. 

They may well be signed off or audited but it’s the questions that follow and the answers that are given that are really interesting - and illuminating.

Questions perhaps that no one wanted to ask. About a scenario that no one ever thought possible….

Why would you continue spending £1.50 to get £1 back? Why wouldn’t you learn from your past mistakes and do something to make sure they didn’t happen again?

Mind you I’ve been married and divorced 3 times, so what do I know?

 

As previous, you clearly don't understand how Enron arose and how differing accounting conventions in different jurisdictions allowed the 'scam' to perpetuate amongst those who only saw the emperor's new clothes. City's accounts are reported under one jurisdiction to one international accounting standard. Lansdown converts cash debt to equity, not matched equity to equity. The numbers are plain to see.

[BTRFTG]

24 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

especially as land itself cannot lose value.

Sorry to disappoint but the value of land, as with any asset, is subjective and goes up and down. True that in this sceptred isle depreciation is rare owing to land being a fairly static resource, but land value isn't a measure if its existence per se rather of what one may do with it AND what one has to do to use it in the desired capacity that dictates its RLV. I frequently had to discount freehold land values based on greedy local authorities flexing their ever acquired rights to extract monies where once they didn't exist.

[chinapig]

9 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

I'm no fan of MA. However, I am sure the model he followed was set by SL. 

Sell players at the top of their value. Re-invest in cheap, young replacements with the potential to grow their value significantly. 

You don't have to be a genius to see the parallel with Steve's approach to the stock market. MA wasted it on poor choice of player but my firm conviction is that the failed strategy was SL's idea. 

I suspect you are right about the strategy.

Whether it was really the intention to fund a doubling of the wage bill through trading or whether that was down to Steve taking his eye off the ball (and Jon being out of his depth as Chairman and so not reining Ashton in) is a moot point though.

A bonkers (as Nigel put it) strategy badly executed based on the false assumptions that we would have an endless stream of players to sell for big money, that Ashton was a recruitment expert, and that fees would go on inflating for ever. None of which had anything to do with building a team.

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Sorry to disappoint but the value of land, as with any asset, is subjective and goes up and down. True that in this sceptred isle depreciation is rare owing to land being a fairly static resource, but land value isn't a measure if its existence per se rather of what one may do with it AND what one has to do to use it in the desired capacity that dictates its RLV. I frequently had to discount freehold land values based on greedy local authorities flexing their ever acquired rights to extract monies where once they didn't exist.

Thanks. That makes some sense yes- read it on some set of accounts once I think, greenbelt vs brownfield that kinda thing as to fluctuations?

[BTRFTG]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks. That makes some sense yes- read it on some set of accounts once I think, greenbelt vs brownfield that kinda thing as to fluctuations?

That's one common distinction given the political drivers (incentives) to use the latter rather than the former.