Tinnion interview

[steveybadger]

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

In fairness I do recall Nige talking about getting one or two in - paraphrased “we’ll have to see, we are right at the top of our budget” as he played down the likelihood of it happening

So you could speculate that maybe they decided that if they couldn’t push the budget, they’d rather go with what they had, hope for limited injuries, than bring in players for the sake of it.  That would kinda make sense wouldn’t it?

My biggest argument is why was the budget set so low?

+++++++

Good for Tins to spell out the recruitment process and roles.  Nothing has changed to the process.  The only thing that appears to be likely to change is Manning will be more involved in the process (than Nige).

The process is exactly as I described it the other day, and expected involvement is exactly as I suggested too.  I made a similar point on OSIB Twitter Spaces too.

Can we (OTIB) final dispel a 7 year myth that signings are one persons’ or another’s….it is clear it is a collective team effort where the manager has final say.

The point for debate is whether the recruitment team can spot the right talent for me

I think it would be churlish of me to be too critical of the Recruitment Team’s recent performance - I think it is improving.  We are seeing good players joining the club (not everyone will be a success straightaway) and taking opportunities to exploit the market too, e.g. Dickie for £0.700m entering the peak years for a CB, and must be up there in the early contenders for POTS.

There is No budget / would you like a player as you have an injury - Genuinely doesn’t sound like anymore than a marginally different interpretation of the same conversation tbh

[Merrick's Marvels]

39 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good for Tins to spell out the recruitment process and roles.  Nothing has changed to the process.  The only thing that appears to be likely to change is Manning will be more involved in the process (than Nige).

The process is exactly as I described it the other day, and expected involvement is exactly as I suggested too.  I made a similar point on OSIB Twitter Spaces too.

Can we (OTIB) final dispel a 7 year myth that signings are one persons’ or another’s….it is clear it is a collective team effort where the manager has final say.

The point for debate is whether the recruitment team can spot the right talent for me

 

Last sentence key for me.

And whether the Coach is able to say "I don't like any of 'em" when presented with a final 3 that's been chosen by someone else, a non-football person at that, just some computer nerd who's crunched the numbers.

I also hope the Coach is allowed to say "Forget the bloody data, just get me Scott Twine" (or whoever, insert player's name of your choice).   

 

[CliftonCliff]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m glad he’s come out and said that.

Most of us, including me, don’t know how the relationship worked, and I’ve had texts and DMs pushing agendas on both sides, so I’m happy to just try to be neutral on it.

Comms appear to be improving.  That’s a good sign imho.  Shame it’s only really now we are seeing it, but I e moved on.

Glad to read your reference to neutrality regarding the BT issue. I’m with you on that. I’ve not known what to make of the accusations flying back and forth and am not at all clear about exactly what it is that’s being alleged. I’m not at all comfortable, either, with dark hints about “gaslighting’” and the like in the absence of anything that looks like tangible evidence. 
 

By the standards of someone who’s normally only an occasional poster, my activity levels on the forum over the last couple of weeks have been off the scale and I’ve had a lot to say about the actions of various individuals, about which I feel very strongly, but I have avoided any reference to Tinnion and have not mentioned him, even indirectly, until this moment.

I have long respected BT and would be very disappointed if he had been involved in undermining NP in any way, though I’m enough of realist to know that nobody’s ever completely squeaky clean. I do hope people have sound reasons and have given careful thought to what they’re saying before taking the step of implicating him in underhand machinations. Even when unfounded, these sorts of comments can tarnish reputations and mud sticks.

It’s the one thing about the whole scenario that I’ve chosen to stay out of and, beyond what I’ve said here, will continue to do so.

[RedRoss]

1 hour ago, Henry said:

The most staggering thing is he say he asked Nige if he wanted one more player after Scott. Nige said no.

Thats an outright lie.

Not sure you can ascertain that without being directly involved which of course you weren't. Infact I can recall many interviews with Nige where he said he wanted a smaller squad so they we're all fighting for positions. I also remember him being very pleased with signing TGH. I have no idea like you but you definitely can't say that's a lie with ultimate conviction. I know its fashionable on here to accuse every senior staff member of sabotage because of Nigels departure.

 

[Shauntaylor85]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Imagine my shock.

Best not to say exactly what I think about him now, he was a very good footballer, I’ll just leave it at that.

Yep. 

[GrahamC]

45 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

"History is written by the victors".

Anyway, enough of looking backwards. It's onwards and upwards. 

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it”.

I might not have paid much attention in lots of other lessons, but I was pretty good at history..

Guess so, but there’s still a bitter taste in my mouth.

[Silvio Dante]

8 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Last sentence key for me.

And whether the Coach is able to say "I don't like any of 'em" when presented with a final 3 that's been chosen by someone else, a non-football person at that, just some computer nerd who's crunched the numbers.

I also hope the Coach is allowed to say "Forget the bloody data, just get me Scott Twine" (or whoever, insert player's name of your choice).   

 

I’d almost certainly imagine that’s the case. If I take the players recruited from (or via) Leicester I can see James being one that was fine per the data, I can even make a case for Simpson (get me an experienced RB), but I’d find it hard to see how King - and this isn’t a knock at him - would fall top of any analytical metrics based on how he’d been in the seasons prior to us. As it is he’s been a decent signing at likely minimal cost, but I’d stake my house that was a pure Nige decision.

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

People thought it worked differently? 

Edit - Although you do get the odd one where the head coach will have the say due to working with them and therefore the head coaches knowledge of the player is best, LJ and Brownhill comes to mind. But by large its the collaborative effort for 90-95%

Yeah, and I bet that even with Brownhill there was at least a consideration of him versus other potential risk signings.  We still had Des Taylor at that point too.

7 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Last sentence key for me.

And whether the Coach is able to say "I don't like any of 'em" when presented with a final 3 that's been chosen by someone else, a non-football person at that, just some computer nerd who's crunched the numbers.

I also hope the Coach is allowed to say "Forget the bloody data, just get me Scott Twine" (or whoever, insert player's name of your choice).   

 

From the presentation RG and SG gave us last March I think some of the reasons for improved recruitment (subjective) is the clarity given at the outset about what player type is required and why.  That should alleviate some of the risk of returning a list that the manager / head-coach doesn’t like.  The other factor is not restricting the pool to players looked after by a small group of “preferred” agents.

Re your final point, you’d like to think that if you “just want” Scott Twine, he’d already have been picked up from the day-to-day work the Recruitment Analysts do when trying to identify players pro-actively.

Of course it’s not an exact science as you and Lrrr point out, but it’s a better framework than random recruitment.

7 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Glad to read your reference to neutrality regarding the BT issue. I’m with you on that. I’ve not known what to make of the accusations flying back and forth and am not at all clear about exactly what it is that’s being alleged. I’m not at all comfortable, either, with dark hints about “gaslighting’” and the like in the absence of anything that looks like tangible evidence. 
 

By the standards of someone who’s normally only an occasional poster, my activity levels on the forum over the last couple of weeks have been off the scale and I’ve had a lot to say about the actions of various individuals, about which I feel very strongly, but I have avoided any reference to Tinnion and have not mentioned him, even indirectly, until this moment.

I have long respected BT and would be very disappointed if he had been involved in undermining NP in any way, though I’m enough of realist to know that nobody’s ever completely squeaky clean. I do hope people have sound reasons and have given careful thought to what they’re saying before taking the step of implicating him in underhand machinations. Even when unfounded, these sorts of comments can tarnish reputations and mud sticks.

It’s the one thing about the whole scenario that I’ve chosen to stay out of and, beyond what I’ve said here, will continue to do so.

Nice post Cliff.

[Sniper]

If what we are hearing is correct that there is going to be no money available in Jan then JL must be deluded to think we can get a top 6, off his rocker is boy blunder.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’d almost certainly imagine that’s the case. If I take the players recruited from (or via) Leicester I can see James being one that was fine per the data, I can even make a case for Simpson (get me an experienced RB), but I’d find it hard to see how King - and this isn’t a knock at him - would fall top of any analytical metrics based on how he’d been in the seasons prior to us. As it is he’s been a decent signing at likely minimal cost, but I’d stake my house that was a pure Nige decision.

I guess for Kingy you are recruiting using different “metrics” - culture metrics as the important / weighted ones.  Weren’t Swansea trying to sign him too?

[Spud21]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Re your final point, you’d like to think that if you “just want” Scott Twine, he’d already have been picked up from the day-to-day work the Recruitment Analysts do when trying to identify players pro-actively.

And I also assume even if he's not someone identified already you'd build the profile and say here is Scott Twine and here are 2 other similar options that may have different budgetary / profile differences. 

[Davefevs]

Just now, Spud21 said:

And I also assume even if he's not someone identified already you'd build the profile and say here is Scott Twine and here are 2 other similar options that may have different budgetary / profile differences. 

Knockaert / Eliasson

[bcfc01]

6 minutes ago, Sniper said:

If what we are hearing is correct that there is going to be no money available in Jan then JL must be deluded to think we can get a top 6, off his rocker is boy blunder.

He did give himself a get out clause by indicating that if someone they would be looking to get in the summer became available in January, they could bring that forward.

[Spud21]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Knockaert / Eliasson

Yes that was the one I was thinking about as well. 

[Kibs]

I have no doubt that we will make a couple of signings in January. 

The club have got to keep playing it down. Nobody is going to come out and say “Yeah we’ve got £25m burning a hole in our pocket, and we can’t wait for the window to be open!!!” 

[Son of Fred]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

Now that might have been done to give the players confidence of course, especially as some seemed to think we were almost a one man team.

Excellent man management..

[GrahamC]

23 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’d almost certainly imagine that’s the case. If I take the players recruited from (or via) Leicester I can see James being one that was fine per the data, I can even make a case for Simpson (get me an experienced RB), but I’d find it hard to see how King - and this isn’t a knock at him - would fall top of any analytical metrics based on how he’d been in the seasons prior to us. As it is he’s been a decent signing at likely minimal cost, but I’d stake my house that was a pure Nige decision.

100%.

There was a quote by Pearson in his first summer in charge where he said he wanted to sign 5 players (he actually ended up with 4 if you include Nathan Baker’s surprise re-signing) & he said firstly they had to be the right “people”, which I always interpreted as being the criteria that resulted in us bringing in Andy King.

James (another of the 4) had played virtually a full season of Championship football in the season prior, through loan spells at Barnsley & Coventry.

King on the other hand, who apparently was on trial pre season, managed just 1 sub appearance in Belgium the entire year before, & although he started well (assist on his debut, only goal in his second game) I always thought he was about reinforcing behaviours & professionalism in the squad, whatever we ever got from him on the pitch.

[steveybadger]

23 minutes ago, Sniper said:

If what we are hearing is correct that there is going to be no money available in Jan then JL must be deluded to think we can get a top 6, off his rocker is boy blunder.

If (and appreciate that is the longest word in the English language) Nige had stayed and the injuries cleared up,  could top 6 have been possible? A lot of people thought so only maybe a month ago? If so why not now?

[Son of Fred]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

Hang on, why did timnion ask pearson if he wanted more players if there was no budget to sign players?  Was his answer going to be ‘tough’ if he said yes?!

Yes

[sh1t_ref_again]

interesting article

When you read between the lines a number of mentions of coaching, I get the felling the club were not happy with NP's involvement with the players on the training pitches, I remember NP stating before he was a Manager not a coach, so guess once you have sorted out the culture and the parts of running the club you can affect, how much have you to do each day if you are not involved heavily with training?

Quotes

desiring someone who was more involved daily with player development and tactical coaching on the training pitches.

Once we had gone for ‘the head coach’ and not manager, you want really a young, up-and-coming, on-the-grass, develop the players, develop the style

But he’s a head coach because he loves coaching. Chris Hogg loves coaching. They’re brilliant coaches on the grass. We will try and help to keep them doing that, to have everything else in place, so he can concentrate on that

 

 

[Tim Monaghan]

I can't find any issues with this article, though I'm sure some people will. Look, I appreciated Pearson as a manager; he brought a refreshing change after the likes of SOD, LJ, and DH. However, let's be honest, our style of play wasn't the most attractive. We were inconsistent at best, and our play could be described as a bit "HOOOOOOOOOOOOF."

Our home form was so disappointing; I'm surprised he lasted past WBA. While I understand he may not have been backed as much as LJ, he did receive support, let's be clear about that. Now, let's address the point about "cutting the wage bill in half." Yes, he did, but it's not like he performed miracles; he simply let contracts run down. It's hardly Wolf of Wall Street genius.

I'll reiterate, I enjoyed having Pearson here as a person. His no-nonsense attitude was refreshing. However, let's not let our liking for Pearson the person overshadow the fact that, in reality, the football wasn't great. I don't spend money on a season ticket to hear someone be honest or because I like the manager's personality. I want to be entertained, and let's be honest, can we genuinely say that "Pearson ball" was good? No, it wasn't.

If what Manning is saying is true, then I'm all for the change. If Nigel didn't enjoy "being on the grass," and reading between the lines suggests the squad needs better coaching to take them to the next step, then it's a move in the right direction.

 

[Tim Monaghan]

3 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

interesting article

When you read between the lines a number of mentions of coaching, I get the felling the club were not happy with NP's involvement with the players on the training pitches, I remember NP stating before he was a Manager not a coach, so guess once you have sorted out the culture and the parts of running the club you can affect, how much have you to do each day if you are not involved heavily with training?

Quotes

desiring someone who was more involved daily with player development and tactical coaching on the training pitches.

Once we had gone for ‘the head coach’ and not manager, you want really a young, up-and-coming, on-the-grass, develop the players, develop the style

But he’s a head coach because he loves coaching. Chris Hogg loves coaching. They’re brilliant coaches on the grass. We will try and help to keep them doing that, to have everything else in place, so he can concentrate on that

 

 

I've literally just posted about this. I get the same impression too. I'm going to get hammered for this, but NP always came across to me as being a bit workshy. He didn't enjoy recruitment (own admission), didn't enjoy talking to the press, didn't coach ("on the grass"). I always used to think, well, what do you do? 

[Silvio Dante]

45 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I guess for Kingy you are recruiting using different “metrics” - culture metrics as the important / weighted ones.  Weren’t Swansea trying to sign him too?

Point being, I’m not sure that “culture” metrics are even measurable. And certainly wouldn’t be by a team of analysts. It’d be about knowing the person and that makes it a Pearson decision. I’d have no objection if Manning thought he needed a senior character to influence the dressing room that didn’t hit tangible metrics either.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

In fairness I do recall Nige talking about getting one or two in - paraphrased “we’ll have to see, we are right at the top of our budget” as he played down the likelihood of it happening

So you could speculate that maybe they decided that if they couldn’t push the budget, they’d rather go with what they had, hope for limited injuries, than bring in players for the sake of it.  That would kinda make sense wouldn’t it?

My biggest argument is why was the budget set so low?

+++++++

Good for Tins to spell out the recruitment process and roles.  Nothing has changed to the process.  The only thing that appears to be likely to change is Manning will be more involved in the process (than Nige).

The process is exactly as I described it the other day, and expected involvement is exactly as I suggested too.  I made a similar point on OSIB Twitter Spaces too.

Can we (OTIB) final dispel a 7 year myth that signings are one persons’ or another’s….it is clear it is a collective team effort where the manager has final say.

The point for debate is whether the recruitment team can spot the right talent for me

I think it would be churlish of me to be too critical of the Recruitment Team’s recent performance - I think it is improving.  We are seeing good players joining the club (not everyone will be a success straightaway) and taking opportunities to exploit the market too, e.g. Dickie for £0.700m entering the peak years for a CB, and must be up there in the early contenders for POTS.

Totally agree about Dickie, but Tinnion taking the credit ? The story at the time iirc was that Sykes informed the club that Dickie wanted to leave QPR. Nothing to do with Tinnion, or scouting. Just pure luck / opportunity.

[Mr Popodopolous]

21 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

I've literally just posted about this. I get the same impression too. I'm going to get hammered for this, but NP always came across to me as being a bit workshy. He didn't enjoy recruitment (own admission), didn't enjoy talking to the press, didn't coach ("on the grass"). I always used to think, well, what do you do? 

Workshy?? What?

I very much doubt that. He has had periodic health issues for 2 years now but putting that aside, he and his team will have been putting in a lot of planning to improve the culture, the cohesiveness while receiving less and less money to work with.

18 months of it was FFP related ie until Semenyo went, thereafter especially post Scott clearly part of  a strategy of some kind.

He and his team woukd have been very hard working to help find solutions for the disaster that he inherited.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[W-S-M Seagull]

1 minute ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

interesting article

When you read between the lines a number of mentions of coaching, I get the felling the club were not happy with NP's involvement with the players on the training pitches, I remember NP stating before he was a Manager not a coach, so guess once you have sorted out the culture and the parts of running the club you can affect, how much have you to do each day if you are not involved heavily with training?

Quotes

desiring someone who was more involved daily with player development and tactical coaching on the training pitches.

Once we had gone for ‘the head coach’ and not manager, you want really a young, up-and-coming, on-the-grass, develop the players, develop the style

But he’s a head coach because he loves coaching. Chris Hogg loves coaching. They’re brilliant coaches on the grass. We will try and help to keep them doing that, to have everything else in place, so he can concentrate on that

 

 

After we abolished the CEO role, I joked that we'd next be getting rid of the managers role. 

On the training ground we had Fleming and Euell doing the coaching with Nigel observing. 

We now have Manning and Hogg on the training ground which has essentially just replaced Fleming and Hogg. 

[W-S-M Seagull]

12 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

I can't find any issues with this article, though I'm sure some people will. Look, I appreciated Pearson as a manager; he brought a refreshing change after the likes of SOD, LJ, and DH. However, let's be honest, our style of play wasn't the most attractive. We were inconsistent at best, and our play could be described as a bit "HOOOOOOOOOOOOF."

Our home form was so disappointing; I'm surprised he lasted past WBA. While I understand he may not have been backed as much as LJ, he did receive support, let's be clear about that. Now, let's address the point about "cutting the wage bill in half." Yes, he did, but it's not like he performed miracles; he simply let contracts run down. It's hardly Wolf of Wall Street genius.

I'll reiterate, I enjoyed having Pearson here as a person. His no-nonsense attitude was refreshing. However, let's not let our liking for Pearson the person overshadow the fact that, in reality, the football wasn't great. I don't spend money on a season ticket to hear someone be honest or because I like the manager's personality. I want to be entertained, and let's be honest, can we genuinely say that "Pearson ball" was good? No, it wasn't.

If what Manning is saying is true, then I'm all for the change. If Nigel didn't enjoy "being on the grass," and reading between the lines suggests the squad needs better coaching to take them to the next step, then it's a move in the right direction.

 

I think you've overlooked the miracle. 

The miracle is that he was able to cut the wage budget, whilst keeping us in this division. I'm not sure anyone else would have been able to do that. 

For us, austerity usually means relegation. As it was, last season we finished 3 wins off the play offs.

[Bazooka Joe]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

"History is written by the victors".

" I don't believe it ! "

[steveybadger]

10 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Totally agree about Dickie, but Tinnion taking the credit ? The story at the time iirc was that Sykes informed the club that Dickie wanted to leave QPR. Nothing to do with Tinnion, or scouting. Just pure luck / opportunity.

From the Post:

“For example, we went to Nige with Dickie, and this player, and that player - Rob Dickie was the best. We went with Jason Knight for a pressing midfield player; ‘this is one that really fits, Nige’ - ‘yeah, like him, perfect’.
 

Really not sure how that is claiming credit’? You’ve just said Sykes informed the club so that could still fit with what BT said above?

Edited November 9, 2023 by steveybadger

[Street red]

30 minutes ago, Son of Fred said:

Excellent man management..

Exactly Nige did things for a reason whether it's by his actions or verbal when it come to man management he's one of best. None of this modern drivel talk that modern coaches say now.