Separating the truth from fiction (I’m encouraged)

[LondonBristolian]

I've got mixed views on Manning from the first few games. I like what he's trying to do but, whilst part of me is impressed that we're controlling games and getting a lot more possession - which we did at times under Pearson last season too - there's another part of me thinking the fact we're not able to convert that possession into goals and that we keep making unforced errors that allow the opposition to score despite our domination of the ball justifies Pearson's decision to play a much more pragmatic brand of football this season.

Ultimately Manning needs to demonstrate that we can both control the game AND win matches. And both Manning and the club need to be honest that that will take some time to implement and mistakes will be made along the way. I think it's inaccurate to compare Pearson and Manning because it feels like Pearson was pretty much told he had to be in the top six to keep his job whereas Manning seems to be being given time to develop a more attractive playing style without being pressured to get the results to stay in touch with the top six. That's fine - as long as we don't drop into a relegation struggle AND as long as it ultimately ends up with a better side - but the board need to be honest with the fans about what they expect from Manning and want him to achieve or else he's going to get flack from the fans for not getting results.

[Kid in the Riot]

2 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Come on mate, who are you? 

That's somewhat rich coming from you. Over 3,000 posts in just over a year.

Perhaps you could inform us what your previous username was?

[Galley is our king]

1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

That's somewhat rich coming from you. Over 3,000 posts in just over a year.

Perhaps you could inform us what your previous username was?

Well whoever it was I doubt he works for Bristol ******* Sport....

[bcfc01]

3 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

That's somewhat rich coming from you. Over 3,000 posts in just over a year.

Perhaps you could inform us what your previous username was?

Is that a rhetorical question ?

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I've got mixed views on Manning from the first few games. I like what he's trying to do but, whilst part of me is impressed that we're controlling games and getting a lot more possession - which we did at times under Pearson last season too - there's another part of me thinking the fact we're not able to convert that possession into goals and that we keep making unforced errors that allow the opposition to score despite our domination of the ball justifies Pearson's decision to play a much more pragmatic brand of football this season.

Ultimately Manning needs to demonstrate that we can both control the game AND win matches. And both Manning and the club need to be honest that that will take some time to implement and mistakes will be made along the way. I think it's inaccurate to compare Pearson and Manning because it feels like Pearson was pretty much told he had to be in the top six to keep his job whereas Manning seems to be being given time to develop a more attractive playing style without being pressured to get the results to stay in touch with the top six. That's fine - as long as we don't drop into a relegation struggle AND as long as it ultimately ends up with a better side - but the board need to be honest with the fans about what they expect from Manning and want him to achieve or else he's going to get flack from the fans for not getting results.

You sum up my early thoughts in a large part.

It’s so much more than changing the way we play (even if I think it’s pretty much just a change to bring patient at this point), it’s changing the way we play to bring better results.

Depending on your view on football styles one style will be more aesthetically pleasing than another.  But it is winning games that defines its success.  It’s pointless otherwise.  Manning believes his style will achieve that.  The hierarchy do too, despite spouting crap about “front foot, high pressing, forward thinking attacking football”.

And therefore I think is absolutely fair to compare Manning with Pearson, because ultimately we are expecting LM to improve us.  And when I say improve us I mean get better results.  Just that a comparison is too early at this point imho.

[petehinton]

18 hours ago, lenred said:

Heard this banded about a few times now.  We had to go quick otherwise he was going to get snapped up. By whom is a very good question. I can see some old tenuous links with Cardiff and funnily enough Huddersfield,  but nothing recent at all.   

He would absolutely be the new Swansea manager if he hadn’t come here

[lenred]

5 minutes ago, petehinton said:

He would absolutely be the new Swansea manager if he hadn’t come here

Would he? Based upon what? No links I can see? Might’ve missed them mind. 

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, petehinton said:

He would absolutely be the new Swansea manager if he hadn’t come here

And as I think I said when Duff was sacked, I’d imagine he’s probably kicking himself that he didn’t wait for that opportunity. His best spell of management was taking over a Russell Martin squad (in August when pre season done) who were used to the style of football, or a variant thereof, that LM likes. He’d have had that at Swansea as most of the Martin team remain - and more pertinently, that fanbase would both welcome him as a “continuation” candidate and he wouldn’t have the boards batshit statements to have to live up to.

 

[Red Skin]

20 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Right I've looked at the thread for the Record.

I remember Tinnion saying we play or aspire to play the same way throughout the club at all levels.

System, ethos or a bit of both..

Am I to take it that we are now playing, will play a back 3 or wingbacks- if not we are deviating already, and it was not on the brochure.

It's still early and we have lots of players injured so needs must.  One answer might be he hasn't got the players available to play how he wants.

The other answer may be more nuanced. LM seems flexible in how we set up - to say the least.  Looks like he is happy to change how we set up to exploit weaknesses in the opposition.  (Whereas I always felt Lee Johnson changed to negate the opposition).  The fact we have generally played well in the first half, and then struggled when teams adapt at HT would suggest the game plan is working initially. 

He's said before it's really hard to influence much from the touchline in game.  And that it's an education piece that needs to be done for players to understand what's happening in game, be familiar with the solutions, and pick the right one to counter what they see.  This is definitely going to take time and may in part explain why we fail to adapt in the second half.

Maybe this is the consistency  - the solutions, dynamic formations, as well as the possession, high press, and aggressive front foot - that will be practiced throughout the footballing side of the club rather than a rigid structure for organising the team whether that be 433 532 etc?  Quite an undertaking and in terms of recruitment you'll need intelligent players that learn fast as well as possessing the other attributes required at the top level.  

We as fans seem far more hooked on formations than coaches.  I am just as guilty of that as anyone. 

Anyone that watched how Tottenham's fullbacks played yesterday, how John Stones has been playing for Man City, or how Sheffield United's overlapping centre-half bamboozled teams a few years ago will appreciate how the game is continually being reinvented.  I can't always follow it at the time, but I find it quite fascinating when it's explained in the analysis. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Red Skin

[BigTone]

41 minutes ago, petehinton said:

He would absolutely be the new Swansea manager if he hadn’t come here

He dodged a bullet then

[The Coach]

4 minutes ago, BigTone said:

He dodged a bullet then

And got hit by another 

[Numero Uno]

2 hours ago, TheSpaniard said:

Yes fair point - I meant to say players who probably don’t have a long term future here, largely due to not fitting into LM plans and contract running down. The likes of Weimann, Williams and King who I assume won’t be getting new deals.

Yep, it has to be accepted Manning has his own ideas and based on the early evidence we will see genuine competition for the Nr 1 jersey soon because I’m not sure Max has the footwork to operate in his preferred set up or at least not to the standard where he is the shoe in that he currently is. So to dominate possession in the way he seemingly wants does require recruitment. Whether Tinnion is the right person to be heading that is my main concern tbh.

[bcfc01]

29 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Yep, it has to be accepted Manning has his own ideas and based on the early evidence we will see genuine competition for the Nr 1 jersey soon because I’m not sure Max has the footwork to operate in his preferred set up or at least not to the standard where he is the shoe in that he currently is. So to dominate possession in the way he seemingly wants does require recruitment. Whether Tinnion is the right person to be heading that is my main concern tbh.

Totally agree re Max.

He could be a liability in playing out from the back or distributing the ball accurately/safely.

Good keeper, but I tend to be nervous when he has the ball at his feet.

 

[bcfc01]

Posted this in the match thread but no harm in putting it in here.

Tommy sounds upbeat;

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/bristol-city-star-learns-curb-8967557

[Red Skin]

4 hours ago, supercidered said:

I find it amazing that we as City fans forgive and forget so quickly. (this isn't a dig at you LB). We as fans have been royally f@cked over for many years and the last debacle with NP followed by the LM appointment was the proverbial straw.

I have seen precious little to get excited about since LM came in. I don't see how anyone can see a draw at Huddersfield as a positive result. I've already written this season off as 'also rans'. I'm pretty sure that all we are going to hear now are lines like 'January is a tough time to do business' 'lets see what happens in the summer' ''we need a good pre season'. Same old sh!te and same old mid table obscurity. 

I think you are completely missing the point of the original post.  

1. You can be angry about the board and how they dealt with Pearson and treated the fans, AND,

2.  You can see some positives in how Manning is going about his job and changing the way we play. 

These aren't mutually exclusive positions. 

The results haven't been great.  We haven't seen 90 minutes of scintillating football, but there are signs of progress.

I suspect like me @Harryis frustrated by a lot of the noise on here right now.  Everything LM does, doesn't do, says, doesn't say is used as stick to beat him with as some sort of way as getting back at the ownership.  Just give the bloke a chance.

If people are really that dissatisfied with the ownership, then address that separately.  Do something constructive to change it.  

Edited December 11, 2023 by Red Skin

[REDOXO]

3 hours ago, Galley is our king said:

Well whoever it was I doubt he works for Bristol ******* Sport....

Take a bow! Post of the week on a Monday!

[supercidered]

12 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

I think you are completely missing the point of the original post.  

1. You can be angry about the board and how they dealt with Pearson and treated the fans, AND,

2.  You can see some positives in how Manning is going about his job and changing the way we play. 

These aren't mutually exclusive positions. 

The results haven't been great.  We haven't seen 90 minutes of scintillating football, but there are signs of progress.

I suspect like me @Harryis frustrated by a lot of the noise on here right now.  Everything LM does, doesn't do, says, doesn't say is used as stick to beat him with as some sort of way as getting back at the ownership.  Just give the bloke a chance.

If people are really that dissatisfied with the ownership, then address that separately.  Do something constructive to change it.  

No I'm really not missing the point.

And my answer to point 2 above. I haven't seen anything very positive so far. If people are going to say that we have had more shots than under Pearson then we really are clutching at straws.

I've got nothing against LM. I just don't think he is in any way a good fit or good enough to be our Head Coach. It certainly hasn't got anything to do with the dissatisfaction of the ownership, I'm sure they will all still be here a lot longer than what LM will be. So I'm resigned to this and will just have to put up with it.

I was responding to Loosey Boy and not Harry's original post.

[Silvio Dante]

33 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

I think you are completely missing the point of the original post.  

1. You can be angry about the board and how they dealt with Pearson and treated the fans, AND,

2.  You can see some positives in how Manning is going about his job and changing the way we play. 

These aren't mutually exclusive positions. 

The results haven't been great.  We haven't seen 90 minutes of scintillating football, but there are signs of progress.

I suspect like me @Harryis frustrated by a lot of the noise on here right now.  Everything LM does, doesn't do, says, doesn't say is used as stick to beat him with as some sort of way as getting back at the ownership.  Just give the bloke a chance.

If people are really that dissatisfied with the ownership, then address that separately.  Do something constructive to change it.  

Good post, and I do think LM is a victim here of the board. I think what is going on though it is happening both ways - as an example it was stated last week that it was likely Manning would have done due diligence and that was jumped on by people who sit more on the positive side as criticism of him. Thats just a mad scenario where debate is stifled.

Im not sure we’ll, for a long time, get away from what the board said in relation to LM. Hes not what was said they wanted - that doesn’t make him bad but it does make it more difficult for him as he’s effectively been asked to deliver against expectations that aren’t realistic.

I’m sitting very much on the sceptical side of LM at the moment - I’m unconvinced he’s the right man for the job and that’s based on both what I’ve seen so far and track record to date on a lot of things. By the same token, I’m not going to jump on everything - I think he’s been right not to play Yeboah and also to separate the first team in training as I said on that thread earlier. I see a bit of a textbook coach who to date has been unadaptable and unconvincing in games - hopefully that changes soon.

The problem is that when you point something out that could be construed as negative it again gets over stonewalled as opposed to debated -for example I called the poor second halves after Soton, was given facepalms and then LM himself acknowledged it!

I think we need to get away from a place where any criticism of how we’re playing, or how LM is doing, is overly divisive and seen as wanting him to fail. It’s not - it’s debate. Against that I do think there has been too much negativity against LM and it’s the line between debate and abuse.

The hope I have at the moment is as follows. One, and most importantly, we lose this bloody ownership. Secondly, as we all do - that he succeeds. But equally, I am unsure at the moment he’s the man to give the nest egg to and I don’t think there’s anything wrong in that position.
 

 

[bexhill reds]

16 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

I think you are completely missing the point of the original post.  

1. You can be angry about the board and how they dealt with Pearson and treated the fans, AND,

2.  You can see some positives in how Manning is going about his job and changing the way we play. 

These aren't mutually exclusive positions. 

The results haven't been great.  We haven't seen 90 minutes of scintillating football, but there are signs of progress.

I suspect like me @Harryis frustrated by a lot of the noise on here right now.  Everything LM does, doesn't do, says, doesn't say is used as stick to beat him with as some sort of way as getting back at the ownership.  Just give the bloke a chance.

If people are really that dissatisfied with the ownership, then address that separately.  Do something constructive to change it.  

As a fan base we’ve got little option other than to give the new coaching team a chance, but it is a forum and people can come up with varying levels of opinion and criticism ideally backed up by reason.

Like all forums posters are subject to extremes, it’s clear that some view LM as a coaching messiah and other see him as nothing more than bland coaching drone that tries to be too clever with odd selections.

My own view is that the next 6 games are so important for LM in terms of fan base support and our general outlook for the season. 6 poor results and the New Year could see us easily involved in the fight to avoid the last relegation place, which will undoubtedly put pressure on an inexperienced management set up and youthful players. I’m not immediately impressed with what I’ve seen but open to having my mind changed by the most important footballing currency - results and points, not possession stats or fancy lines on the HPC training pitches.

 

 

[transfer reader]

1 hour ago, bexhill reds said:

As a fan base we’ve got little option other than to give the new coaching team a chance, but it is a forum and people can come up with varying levels of opinion and criticism ideally backed up by reason.

Like all forums posters are subject to extremes, it’s clear that some view LM as a coaching messiah and other see him as nothing more than bland coaching drone that tries to be too clever with odd selections.

My own view is that the next 6 games are so important for LM in terms of fan base support and our general outlook for the season. 6 poor results and the New Year could see us easily involved in the fight to avoid the last relegation place, which will undoubtedly put pressure on an inexperienced management set up and youthful players. I’m not immediately impressed with what I’ve seen but open to having my mind changed by the most important footballing currency - results and points, not possession stats or fancy lines on the HPC training pitches.

 

 

Such as who?

[BCFC31]

6 hours ago, supercidered said:

I find it amazing that we as City fans forgive and forget so quickly. (this isn't a dig at you LB). We as fans have been royally f@cked over for many years and the last debacle with NP followed by the LM appointment was the proverbial straw.

I have seen precious little to get excited about since LM came in. I don't see how anyone can see a draw at Huddersfield as a positive result. I've already written this season off as 'also rans'. I'm pretty sure that all we are going to hear now are lines like 'January is a tough time to do business' 'lets see what happens in the summer' ''we need a good pre season'. Same old sh!te and same old mid table obscurity. 

I made this point in another thread us as a fan base are way to soft and accepting that's why people get shot down for speaking out against certain things. I'm with you on that a draw v huddersfield imo is absolutely not acceptable. They were there for the taking and I don't like hearing all this an away point is good nonsense aswell thats just again another  kind of mediocre acceptance. The bar for the fan base  expectancy is set so low but that could be more to do with the fact we just haven't had anything to get excited about for a very long time.

Edited December 11, 2023 by BCFC31

[bexhill reds]

1 hour ago, transfer reader said:

Such as who?

Not going to name anyone simply because the point is about extremes on the forum and not necessarily about the specific view of an individual(s). The fact that there are so many posts on the various threads covering poster’s opposing views on the coaching set up makes it clear that opinion is very split. Highlighting specific individuals to make a point only serves to make the argument more personal, and there is enough of that on here already.

Edited December 11, 2023 by bexhill reds

[Harry]

4 hours ago, Red Skin said:

I think you are completely missing the point of the original post.  

1. You can be angry about the board and how they dealt with Pearson and treated the fans, AND,

2.  You can see some positives in how Manning is going about his job and changing the way we play. 

These aren't mutually exclusive positions. 

The results haven't been great.  We haven't seen 90 minutes of scintillating football, but there are signs of progress.

I suspect like me @Harryis frustrated by a lot of the noise on here right now.  Everything LM does, doesn't do, says, doesn't say is used as stick to beat him with as some sort of way as getting back at the ownership.  Just give the bloke a chance.

If people are really that dissatisfied with the ownership, then address that separately.  Do something constructive to change it.  

Exactly sir. 
The main thrust of this thread was to separate the bullcrap that came out from Jon Gav & Brian with the reality of where we actually are on the pitch. 
When Nige was here, not many of us were expecting a playoff challenge. 
I wasn’t judging Nige on that and I’m not going to judge Manning on that. 
 

I just get the impression that there are a lot of folks who ARE judging Manning on that and are now expecting him to take the mid table squad that Nige had and to make it a playoff challenging one. 

The reality is that hardly any of us thought we would do that under Nige so why should we now expect this of Liam. It’s within our own gift to think for ourselves, not just go with what the wise men promised. 
 

I know the reasons why. It’s the ridiculous comments from the club, the nonsense reasons given for removing Nige etc. And I agree with everyone who knows that this was utter bollox from the 3 wise men! 

I’m just trying to call for us to separate the two things. We weren’t expecting a playoff run before and we still won’t be getting one now. 
The people to call out on that will be Jon Gavlar and Brian at the end of the season. 

For now, I’ll just see how we develop (or not) under Liam and the powder will be kept very dry. 
5 games is too early to judge any incoming manager but the board have placed unnecessary pressure on him to achieve instant results. 

I’m happy to see how things transpire under Manning and if it appears we’ve gone backwards come the end of the season then I’ll be the first one calling for Jon & Brian to be publically lynched (metaphorically of course, not actual physical violence )

Edited December 11, 2023 by Harry

[spudski]

14 minutes ago, Harry said:

Exactly sir. 
The main thrust of this thread was to separate the bullcrap that came out from Jon Gav & Brian with the reality of where we actually are on the pitch. 
When Nige was here, not many of us were expecting a playoff challenge. 
I wasn’t judging Nige on that and I’m not going to judge Manning on that. 
 

I just get the impression that there are a lot of folks who ARE judging Manning on that and are now expecting him to take the mid table squad that Nige had and to make it a playoff challenging one. 

The reality is that hardly any of us thought we would do that under Nige so why should we now expect this of Liam. It’s within our own gift to think for ourselves, not just go with what the wise men promised. 
 

I know the reasons why. It’s the ridiculous comments from the club, the nonsense reasons given for removing Nige etc. And I agree with everyone who knows that this was utter bollox from the 3 wise men! 

I’m just trying to call for us to separate the two things. We weren’t expecting a playoff run before and we still won’t be getting one now. 
The people to call out on that will be Jon Gavlar and Brian at the end of the season. 

For now, I’ll just see how we develop (or not) under Liam and the powder will be kept very dry. 
5 games is too early to judge any incoming manager but the board have placed unnecessary pressure on him to achieve instant results. 

I’m happy to see how things transpire under Manning and if it appears we’ve gone backwards come the end of the season then I’ll be the first one calling for Jon & Brian to be publically lynched (metaphorically of course, not actual physical violence )

I think the majority of people see it the same way Harry. 

Most of think NP wasn't sacked for the reasons given...but given what's been said by the board, how was it sold to Manning and what are the Clubs expectations of Manning this season. 

We've been told they believe the squad as it stands is capable of top half/6. And publicly they thought we could achieve more, so they sacked NP. 

Manning would have known that when coming here. What did they say to him at interview? We expect better and want you to fulfill our expectations? 

If he fails and finishes bottom half...what excuses will be used? 

He's between a rock and a hard place. 

 

[redsquirrel]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

I think the majority of people see it the same way Harry. 

Most of think NP wasn't sacked for the reasons given...but given what's been said by the board, how was it sold to Manning and what are the Clubs expectations of Manning this season. 

We've been told they believe the squad as it stands is capable of top half/6. And publicly they thought we could achieve more, so they sacked NP. 

Manning would have known that when coming here. What did they say to him at interview? We expect better and want you to fulfill our expectations? 

If he fails and finishes bottom half...what excuses will be used? 

He's between a rock and a hard place. 

 

they wont give a toss about anything now that they have achieved their main objective for this season, i,e, get rid of NP before he delivers top 6 so they cant.

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, redsquirrel said:

they wont give a toss about anything now that they have achieved their main objective for this season, i,e, get rid of NP before he delivers top 6 so they cant.

I'm just thinking ahead as to how they will react to fans and media questions, if Manning fails to deliver this season. 

If at interview they told him they thought the squad was top 6 quality and they expect better, in taking the job he would have know the expectations and what had been said publicly about the reason for NPs departure. 

 

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 hours ago, Red Skin said:

I think you are completely missing the point of the original post.  

1. You can be angry about the board and how they dealt with Pearson and treated the fans, AND,

2.  You can see some positives in how Manning is going about his job and changing the way we play. 

These aren't mutually exclusive positions. 

The results haven't been great.  We haven't seen 90 minutes of scintillating football, but there are signs of progress.

I suspect like me @Harryis frustrated by a lot of the noise on here right now.  Everything LM does, doesn't do, says, doesn't say is used as stick to beat him with as some sort of way as getting back at the ownership.  Just give the bloke a chance.

If people are really that dissatisfied with the ownership, then address that separately.  Do something constructive to change it.  

Problem is mate, there hasn't been any positives so therefore it's impossible to post about positives. 

I don't count high posession as a positives as watching our cbs pass it between themselves is dull and tedious. 

You may think there has been positives and that's fair enough. I don't and that's fair enough too. 

[Merrick's Marvels]

8 hours ago, petehinton said:

He would absolutely be the new Swansea manager if he hadn’t come here

Imagine being a newly appointed coach, brought in to implement a modern, "progressive" style of play, based on controlling possession.

You can choose between a midfield of:

Grimes - Fulton - Patino, or

James - Williams - Knight.

You'd have to be a mentalist to choose the latter.

And if keeping possession is your key "principle" (natch), I'd argue Paterson - Lowe - Bolasie are also superior to Sykes - Conway - Bell.

Manning has a mountain to climb.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[bcfc01]

6 hours ago, bcfc01 said:

Posted this in the match thread but no harm in putting it in here.

Tommy sounds upbeat;

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/bristol-city-star-learns-curb-8967557

Didn't think this would get much traction...

[Silvio Dante]

Just now, Merrick's Marvels said:

Imagine being a newly appointed coach, brought in to implement a modern, "progressive" style of play, based on controlling possession.

You can choose between a midfield of:

Grimes - Fulton - Patino, or

James - Williams - Knight.

You'd have to be a mentalist to choose the latter.

And if keeping possession is your key "principle" (natch), Patterson - Lowe - Bolasie are also superior to Sykes - Conway - Bell.

Manning has a mountain to climb.

Quite. And what you’d have to say is that he either has insane self belief in himself to take this job or is totally delusional. Similar to the “due diligence” piece most of us appreciate that to get Manning to get City playing his way effectively (if it is even achieved) will take some time in reality. If you overlay that fact against the average time a manager at this level gets doesn’t give that time and the raised expectations from those dumbasses pronouncements it looks every inch a poisoned chalice.

I don’t have sympathy as he chose to drink from it. But he certainly appears to have jumped at a club whose squad isn’t a natural fit for him when he could have moved for a better fit. Hopefully he just liked - and can achieve - the challenge