Welcome Jack Hunt - Now officially signed

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

And yet in our promotion season MA was given the credit for the signings

And he wasn’t even an employee

All Alice in Wonderland

I think MA gave himself the credit

56 minutes ago, Robbored said:

That's my understanding of how the incoming transfers work as well.

What I don't quite get is why some posters think that LJ has little or no say in transfers - a ludicrous idea.................

I don’t think anyone is saying LJ has little or no say, what has constantly been said by those I believe are much closer to the process than you or I (and not believing the sound bites) is that MA is having too much say in the player identification side of the process.  I’ve no doubt he does a good job on the finance / deal aspect of the recruitment, but if he’s influencing what comes out of the funnel....then that is not his skill set.  The fact that he was integral to the introduction of the "database" that drives what comes out of the funnel, then he’s got a conflict of interest to some extent.

I joked the other week that perhaps the database needs to be re-calibrated and lower the stats / attributes of those players from Sweden.

46 minutes ago, INCRED said:

No announcement yet - bit if a concern as medicals don't take this long surely??

Just assuming medical us done (last night / this morning), City won’t announce it until it’s obviously official, but then there’s a lag for all the media stuff to get done.

Conspiracy theory - today was an open day at Failand for media....perhaps Hunt kept out of sight so that City can make the announcement, not let someone else announce it.  

Perhaps other key staff (even MA) were busy doing something else.

Of course he maybe failed the medical, or didn’t like what he saw.  Maybe Pisano punched him 

Some get completed quicker than others?

[CyderInACan]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I joked the other week that perhaps the database needs to be re-calibrated and lower the stats / attributes of those players from Sweden

Wait til teatime Saturday please before we start dissing the Swedes!

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

That's my understanding of how the incoming transfers work as well.

What I don't quite get is why some posters think that LJ has little or no say in transfers - a ludicrous idea.................

That’s not what’s ever been said though so you’ve paraphrased quite remarkably. 

What’s been said in the past is that MA had “too much control”, not that LJ had “no say whatsoever”. 

This summer, according to a very good source who was in the meeting, LJ asked for more control over incomings. 

I’m not saying I know ‘exactly’ how it worked before, but certainly LJ was not the man with the absolute final say on who to target or who to sign. Of course he’d have had ‘some’ involvement but he was not in as much control as he wanted to be. He is not a toys out of the pram kinda guy so will gladly have gone along with the party line in the media, but I know for an absolute fact that in May, he was given “more control”. 

I think the evidence is quite clear. Before, we were working purely from an analytics/stats/database standpoint. This brought through the likes of Elliason, Engvall etc. That model can be effective but it should never constitute the whole. But my impression is that we were using this as a targeting, scouting and analytics tool - all in one. I believe what LJ must be referring to (more control), is to be able to target players without the 100% use of the analytics, and instead be able to start looking at players that he knows or is aware of or had admired etc. And then the analytics get to business. 

In short, I think “more control” means less ‘database’ targeting and more ‘knowledge’ based targeting. 

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

That’s not what’s ever been said though so you’ve paraphrased quite remarkably. 

What’s been said in the past is that MA had “too much control”, not that LJ had “no say whatsoever”. 

This summer, according to a very good source who was in the meeting, LJ asked for more control over incomings. 

I’m not saying I know ‘exactly’ how it worked before, but certainly LJ was not the man with the absolute final say on who to target or who to sign. Of course he’d have had ‘some’ involvement but he was not in as much control as he wanted to be. He is not a toys out of the pram kinda guy so will gladly have gone along with the party line in the media, but I know for an absolute fact that in May, he was given “more control”. 

I think the evidence is quite clear. Before, we were working purely from an analytics/stats/database standpoint. This brought through the likes of Elliason, Engvall etc. That model can be effective but it should never constitute the whole. But my impression is that we were using this as a targeting, scouting and analytics tool - all in one. I believe what LJ must be referring to (more control), is to be able to target players without the 100% use of the analytics, and instead be able to start looking at players that he knows or is aware of or had admired etc. And then the analytics get to business. 

In short, I think “more control” means less ‘database’ targeting and more ‘knowledge’ based targeting. 

That aligns with my database / funnel comments.....ta.

If you’ve read Moneyball (worth a read if you haven’t), the saber-metric statisticians founds the missing link(s) in the stats to over-rule what the scouts were judging with their eyes and reading too much into the wrong stats.  Rather than runs / hits (I’m simplifying it), they found that what was more important (especially to the team) was the percentage of times the player got to first base (again simplified).  Sometimes a batter gets “walked” there by the pitcher foul-balling.  That was kind ignored because the batter hasn’t hit a ball.  The numbers men started to realise how important it was.  They also knew that physical looks weren’t important.  Quite clever that they cast Pitt as Billy Bean, as he was the perfect physical baseball specimen at high school, who the scouts believed that despite waning stats, would come good eventually.  He didn’t.  The fat guy with the limp who regularly got to first base (not with the ladies I doubt) did come good, as did the pitcher who threw “under-arm / sidearm”.

Who was one of the saber-metric men?  John Henry - owner of LFC.  Not only a very wealthy financier....one of the regular top placed Fantasy Baseball players, before he took over a baseball franchise.

However, this is all well and good, as baseball is a repetitive game, you can measure everything, every pitch starts from the same place!

Brentford are known as the Moneyball of football.  They’ve found the model that works for football.

As you say Harry, with football, it’s a bit the other way around, you have to see with your own eyes and use the stats to confirm, or at least make you look more critically.

[Robbored]

8 minutes ago, Harry said:

That’s not what’s ever been said though so you’ve paraphrased quite remarkably. 

What’s been said in the past is that MA had “too much control”, not that LJ had “no say whatsoever”. 

This summer, according to a very good source who was in the meeting, LJ asked for more control over incomings. 

I’m not saying I know ‘exactly’ how it worked before, but certainly LJ was not the man with the absolute final say on who to target or who to sign. Of course he’d have had ‘some’ involvement but he was not in as much control as he wanted to be. He is not a toys out of the pram kinda guy so will gladly have gone along with the party line in the media, but I know for an absolute fact that in May, he was given “more control”. 

I think the evidence is quite clear. Before, we were working purely from an analytics/stats/database standpoint. This brought through the likes of Elliason, Engvall etc. That model can be effective but it should never constitute the whole. But my impression is that we were using this as a targeting, scouting and analytics tool - all in one. I believe what LJ must be referring to (more control), is to be able to target players without the 100% use of the analytics, and instead be able to start looking at players that he knows or is aware of or had admired etc. And then the analytics get to business. 

In short, I think “more control” means less ‘database’ targeting and more ‘knowledge’ based targeting. 

Under LJ  transfers in to AG have (mostly) been decent. Some dodgy loans apart of course and the Engvall mystery.........

Like all Championship clubs City have a scouting network all over Europe. That's how foreign players are spotted and if they meet certain criteria one of the senior guys will take a further look and report back to LJ and MA . Thats how the likes of Hegeler, Djuric and Pisano came to City.

Point is - it doesn't really matter who is in 'control' of incoming transfers as the majority of them have been useful additions. 

For all we know.....LJ and MA work closely on transfers - now that would be a tremendous shock........

 

[Harry]

5 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Under LJ  transfers in to AG have (mostly) been decent. Some dodgy loans apart of course and the Engvall mystery.........

Like all Championship clubs City have a scouting network all over Europe. That's how foreign players are spotted and if they meet certain criteria one of the senior guys will take a further look and report back to LJ and MA . Thats how the likes of Hegeler, Djuric and Pisano came to City.

Point is - it doesn't really matter who is in 'control' of incoming transfers as the majority of them have been useful additions. 

For all we know.....LJ and MA work closely on transfers - now that would be a tremendous shock........

 

Yes they do work closely and yes we do have scouts. But you’re missing the crux. 

The “control” had been predominantly based around MA and his database. ‘Ok so we need a player at right back, let’s have a look at the database and see who fits what we want’. 

LJ has asked for more control over the targeting of players, so now the conversation would be : ‘Ok so we need a player at right back, I’d really like us to look at x, y & z as I’ve seen them a few times and really like them. Can we get the scouts to have a look and get the analysts onto it’. 

Basically, using the analytics to verify rather than target. 

[shelts]

2 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

Many a truth said in jest? 

My original post was in jest as u clearly stated ....whooosh for the others 

[chinapig]

41 minutes ago, Harry said:

That’s not what’s ever been said though so you’ve paraphrased quite remarkably. 

What’s been said in the past is that MA had “too much control”, not that LJ had “no say whatsoever”. 

This summer, according to a very good source who was in the meeting, LJ asked for more control over incomings. 

I’m not saying I know ‘exactly’ how it worked before, but certainly LJ was not the man with the absolute final say on who to target or who to sign. Of course he’d have had ‘some’ involvement but he was not in as much control as he wanted to be. He is not a toys out of the pram kinda guy so will gladly have gone along with the party line in the media, but I know for an absolute fact that in May, he was given “more control”. 

I think the evidence is quite clear. Before, we were working purely from an analytics/stats/database standpoint. This brought through the likes of Elliason, Engvall etc. That model can be effective but it should never constitute the whole. But my impression is that we were using this as a targeting, scouting and analytics tool - all in one. I believe what LJ must be referring to (more control), is to be able to target players without the 100% use of the analytics, and instead be able to start looking at players that he knows or is aware of or had admired etc. And then the analytics get to business. 

In short, I think “more control” means less ‘database’ targeting and more ‘knowledge’ based targeting. 

Thanks Harry, an invaluable and clearly expressed contribution as usual, as is Davefevs' subsequent post on the Moneyball approach (thanks Dave).

I came to a similar conclusion with no inside knowledge simply reading the runes but yours has a lot more authority.

I would only add that the evidence so far suggests that any agreement to give LJ more control included the quid pro quo that he would have to generate funds through sales, satisfying SL's desire to see some of the value in the squad realised and to move another step towards financial sustainability.

Overall a sensible change in approach and in roles and responsibilities with toys kept in pram as you say. A positive contrast with the kind of conflict over transfer policy, often public, that happens at many clubs and has happened at ours in the past.

[swanker]

1 hour ago, Monkeh said:

then you are deluded its quite something to manage two clubs at the same time that play on the same day both with different ambitions and goals as well as differen't budgets 

He’s joking you idiot!

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Thanks Harry, an invaluable and clearly expressed contribution as usual, as is Davefevs' subsequent post on the Moneyball approach (thanks Dave).

I came to a similar conclusion with no inside knowledge simply reading the runes but yours has a lot more authority.

I would only add that the evidence so far suggests that any agreement to give LJ more control included the quid pro quo that he would have to generate funds through sales, satisfying SL's desire to see some of the value in the squad realised and to move another step towards financial sustainability.

Overall a sensible change in approach and in roles and responsibilities with toys kept in pram as you say. A positive contrast with the kind of conflict over transfer policy, often public, that happens at many clubs and has happened at ours in the past.

I think our recruitment this summer stinks!

 

 

 

 

 

Stinks of the kind of recruitment Brentford, Preston would do but we’ve got a tad more money.  Encouraging. 

[Bristols finest]

If his medical was today, the speed in which our media team move it will be announced tomorrow. All deals have been announced the day after a medical, still expect this to be a done deal.

[KeepUpLino]

[awbb]

28 minutes ago, KeepUpLino said:

Chris Waldorf clearly isn’t a City fan if he thinks Mike is a worse name than Nicky for someone with the quoted surname.

[Nogbad the Bad]

3 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

What we have been told and what was/is actually happening are two different things. There have been rumblings that MA was too involved in the scouting side of things in the past. Based on our business thus far it would appear something has changes. 

The scenarios were used as an example. We don’t know for sure but if MA was too involved it is not impossible that LJ was asked/coached to say things in the media that weren’t exactly true/things he agreed with. Also not impossible he was being a strict professional trying to make the best of a bad situation. 

'Rumblings' are just tittle tattle and mean absolutely nothing, and there's no reason whatsover for LJ to say he has the final say if it's not the case.

I asked you to state exactly what you mean when you state MA has too much say on transfers, even though you've now go on to say you have no idea if that has actually been the situation.

Rumblings, along with the almost preposterous assumption that LJ is for some reason taking responsibility when it is not his to take will not cut it I'm afraid.

He's got no reason to do that. LJ is very much SL's man and SL would not allow MA to over interfere, potentially to LJ's detriment, if it was agreed with LJ at the time of his appointment that he would have the final say, which LJ has repeatedly said is the case.

 

[JoeAman08]

12 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

'Rumblings' are just tittle tattle and mean absolutely nothing, and there's no reason whatsover for LJ to say he has the final say if it's not the case.

I asked you to state exactly what you mean when you state MA has too much say on transfers, even though you've now go on to say you have no idea if that has actually been the situation.

Rumblings, along with the almost preposterous assumption that LJ is for some reason taking responsibility when it is not his to take will not cut it I'm afraid.

He's got no reason to do that. LJ is very much SL's man and SL would not allow MA to over interfere, potentially to LJ's detriment, if it was agreed with LJ at the time of his appointment that he would have the final say, which LJ has repeatedly said is the case.

 

Ok mate funny you replied to my post, where I won’t lie, not the greatest worded post. Go read @Harry or @Davefevs posts. They explain it much better than I do with probably more to back it up

[Nogbad the Bad]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

Yes they do work closely and yes we do have scouts. But you’re missing the crux. 

The “control” had been predominantly based around MA and his database. ‘Ok so we need a player at right back, let’s have a look at the database and see who fits what we want’. 

LJ has asked for more control over the targeting of players, so now the conversation would be : ‘Ok so we need a player at right back, I’d really like us to look at x, y & z as I’ve seen them a few times and really like them. Can we get the scouts to have a look and get the analysts onto it’. 

Basically, using the analytics to verify rather than target. 

LJ has specifically said he puts names forward personally for the data base.

No doubt MA does too - so the scouts, the analysts, MA and LJ will all be involved in compiling it to a greater or lesser extent. 

When a particular position needs filling MA's primary job at this stage is surely to whittle it down with investigtions as to character/financial demands. .

Are you implying MA was so thorough in his ruling out of potential signings ( for those character or financial reasons) that LJ felt he was left with a meagre choice of either inappropriate players, or too much of a gamble, so LJ has more control now so he's left with a better final choice?

Things are bound to be different in this window than previously btw, with a different type of more complete player targeted - we've got several first team positions to fill and 20m to play with.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Ok mate funny you replied to my post, where I won’t lie, not the greatest worded post. Go read @Harry or @Davefevs posts. They explain it much better than I do with probably more to back it up

Seriously @Nogbad the Bad, read Harry’s post.  He is much closer to the info, mine is second hand (but is pretty much identical to Harry).  You know I’m not one to claim to be ITK, about signings nor am I one to make up stuff to appear to be either.

The profile of this summer’s signings is very different.

Some of that is because we’ve raised our profile, that can’t be ignored.  But if you’d seen some of the players we’ve scouted historically, but turned down by previous regimes (as far back as when MA was here first time too, so he can’t take the credit, and my beloved Cotts too), you’ll have to start believing that LJ is having greater control on who comes through the door.

[Nogbad the Bad]

11 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Ok mate funny you replied to my post, where I won’t lie, not the greatest worded post. Go read @Harry or @Davefevs posts. They explain it much better than I do with probably more to back it up

Um, you replied to mine first Joe. 

I enjoy reading, and respect the views of both @Harry and @Davefevs, doesn't mean I always agree with them though.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Nogbad the Bad said:

Um, you replied to mine first Joe. 

I enjoy reading, and respect the views of both @Harry and @Davefevs, doesn't mean I always agree with them though.

....and that is fine, no prob at all.

[Merrick's Marvels]

5 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Strange 

Because at the Q&A he spent some time taking us thro his blow by blow account how he’d identified Eliasson as a target

Using Ashton's laptop, Bob 

[bpexile]

10 hours ago, Midred said:

No details please, Rudolf!

"Jake The Peg" springs to mind 

[Alessandro]

Piecing together lots of elements, quotes, rumours, facts, speculations - there seems to be a lot of sense with what has been written in this thread:

A quote that always stuck in my mind was MA when LJ joined, or just before, along the lines of "a head coach who can come in and is answerable to me".

Then there was LJ's "players I can trust" quote that begins to mean more now - and the simple fact there are some players he has pretty much out-right refused to play.

No doubt some of our foreign signings were identified by LJ and no doubt he 'signed off' on all the signings, but it seems now there were several who were not his choice and that MA was perhaps driving the recruitment process. At the time LJ was probably happy with the process, but the success rate of foreign signings hasn't been good enough, so you have to reflect and react.

The fact LJ never lost his job, the fact MA has taken an increasingly 'public' back seat.

And ultimately that our signings this summer who a very different theme to them, more of the types of players LJ "can trust", suggest perhaps the above posters are right in saying the club has reflected and reacted by giving LJ that bit more control, and probably culpability, over the transfer process.

[Loco Rojo]

Bloody hell boys (and girls) I get home at 2.30 in the morning and expect you to have gotten this wrapped up. I was hopping that an example of a Thusday night out in the city centre would have sold it to him! (I've done my bit) I've got nothing else guys!! Now I have to get through another day of speculation pages. One job guys, one job!

[Lrrr]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

That aligns with my database / funnel comments.....ta.

If you’ve read Moneyball (worth a read if you haven’t), the saber-metric statisticians founds the missing link(s) in the stats to over-rule what the scouts were judging with their eyes and reading too much into the wrong stats.  Rather than runs / hits (I’m simplifying it), they found that what was more important (especially to the team) was the percentage of times the player got to first base (again simplified).  Sometimes a batter gets “walked” there by the pitcher foul-balling.  That was kind ignored because the batter hasn’t hit a ball.  The numbers men started to realise how important it was.  They also knew that physical looks weren’t important.  Quite clever that they cast Pitt as Billy Bean, as he was the perfect physical baseball specimen at high school, who the scouts believed that despite waning stats, would come good eventually.  He didn’t.  The fat guy with the limp who regularly got to first base (not with the ladies I doubt) did come good, as did the pitcher who threw “under-arm / sidearm”.

Who was one of the saber-metric men?  John Henry - owner of LFC.  Not only a very wealthy financier....one of the regular top placed Fantasy Baseball players, before he took over a baseball franchise.

However, this is all well and good, as baseball is a repetitive game, you can measure everything, every pitch starts from the same place!

Brentford are known as the Moneyball of football.  They’ve found the model that works for football.

As you say Harry, with football, it’s a bit the other way around, you have to see with your own eyes and use the stats to confirm, or at least make you look more critically.

Do have to laugh at Liverpool's attempt of using it though.

[JoeAman08]

7 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Um, you replied to mine first Joe. 

I enjoy reading, and respect the views of both @Harry and @Davefevs, doesn't mean I always agree with them though.

Fair enough just that my thoughts echo theirs without the finesse

[Port Said Red]

It would be nice to be talking about the original subject of this thread, but looks like that will have to wait a little longer. As far as the transfer policy goes, I think some of you have got bogged down in what to me seems like an evolution of the policy rather than a revolution.

I said elsewhere that I think the first fruits of the develop and profit method are coming to fruition, and that this is now giving us scope to buy players that are more experienced but are still at an age where they can improve or at least retain their value.

It's right to say we can't just fill the squad with potential, so there had to be a move in this direction once the money was there.

[CiderCraig]

4 hours ago, Loco Rojo said:

Bloody hell boys (and girls) I get home at 2.30 in the morning and expect you to have gotten this wrapped up. I was hopping that an example of a Thusday night out in the city centre would have sold it to him! (I've done my bit) I've got nothing else guys!! Now I have to get through another day of speculation pages. One job guys, one job!

Can I recommend a taxi next time, you might get home earlier!

[supercidered]

8 hours ago, awbb said:

Chris Waldorf clearly isn’t a City fan if he thinks Mike is a worse name than Nicky for someone with the quoted surname.

Very true but to be fair Mike Hunt smells

[BRISTOL86]

14 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Whatever is meant by 'having more control over transfers' the inference that MA has perhaps overseen the signing of players LJ doesn't particularly want, or even against his will, goes against what LJ himself has said numerous times.

That being that LJ himself (not SL,JL or MA) has the definitive and final 'yes' or 'no' say on every incoming transfer.

I think that’s called ‘toeing the party line’. 

It’s been evident for ages that there’s players here that Johnson clearly doesn’t want. And something has certainlty changed going by our recruitment this summer to date. 

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, Alessandro said:

Piecing together lots of elements, quotes, rumours, facts, speculations - there seems to be a lot of sense with what has been written in this thread:

A quote that always stuck in my mind was MA when LJ joined, or just before, along the lines of "a head coach who can come in and is answerable to me".

Then there was LJ's "players I can trust" quote that begins to mean more now - and the simple fact there are some players he has pretty much out-right refused to play.

No doubt some of our foreign signings were identified by LJ and no doubt he 'signed off' on all the signings, but it seems now there were several who were not his choice and that MA was perhaps driving the recruitment process. At the time LJ was probably happy with the process, but the success rate of foreign signings hasn't been good enough, so you have to reflect and react.

The fact LJ never lost his job, the fact MA has taken an increasingly 'public' back seat.

And ultimately that our signings this summer who a very different theme to them, more of the types of players LJ "can trust", suggest perhaps the above posters are right in saying the club has reflected and reacted by giving LJ that bit more control, and probably culpability, over the transfer process.

Good post A 

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

It would be nice to be talking about the original subject of this thread, but looks like that will have to wait a little longer. As far as the transfer policy goes, I think some of you have got bogged down in what to me seems like an evolution of the policy rather than a revolution.

I said elsewhere that I think the first fruits of the develop and profit method are coming to fruition, and that this is now giving us scope to buy players that are more experienced but are still at an age where they can improve or at least retain their value.

It's right to say we can't just fill the squad with potential, so there had to be a move in this direction once the money was there.

Yes, and it could also be that last season’s improved position gave LJ more confidence (and clout) to have more control.  Not easy when you’re struggling in the lower reaches of the division.