O'Neills - New Kit Supplier (Confirmed)

[Sir Geoff]

2 hours ago, shahanshahan said:

Hi, not all of us are personally regularly active on OTIB, so apologies if there is something you think has been missed. If there is something you'd like to raise, please send an email to info@bristolcitysupporters.org

You and everyone else is welcome to our monthly board meetings

There are 61 pages complaining about O Neils and the splat Robin, how could anyone have missed it. The SC+T should have been all over it from the beginning asking the club for an explanation for the change in badge and poor quality kit being supplied to fans. The white paper / fan led review covers badge and kit colour changes and urges clubs to consult with fans before changes are made. Questions should have been asked months ago by the SC+T. Your post is a cop out and sounds like it came from someone at the club. Sorry to pick on you but you raised your head above the parapet, other sc+t members are on here and have been asked to raise it but so far diddly squat.

[Ska Junkie]

Where's our away kit????

I expected it to be unveiled when Knight signed tbh. Maybe they're waiting for something?

[phantom]

34 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

Where's our away kit????

I expected it to be unveiled when Knight signed tbh. Maybe they're waiting for something?

Delay with the crayons being sent to Botswana so still waiting on the latest screw up of a design

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Sir Geoff said:

There are 61 pages complaining about O Neils and the splat Robin, how could anyone have missed it. The SC+T should have been all over it from the beginning asking the club for an explanation for the change in badge and poor quality kit being supplied to fans. The white paper / fan led review covers badge and kit colour changes and urges clubs to consult with fans before changes are made. Questions should have been asked months ago by the SC+T. Your post is a cop out and sounds like it came from someone at the club. Sorry to pick on you but you raised your head above the parapet, other sc+t members are on here and have been asked to raise it but so far diddly squat.

In those 61 pages you'll see that I have posted that I did contact the club when "splat" was revealed. This was not "official" SC&T communication though, so it was not for me to disclose or announce publicly on their behalf. I contacted the Club, and I happen to be an SC&T member (not a board member but a regular £12 a year bog-standard member) of the SC&T. I let the SC&T know about that contact and what came of it.

In fact I contacted the FA, EFL, and FSA and the EFL helped to get my concerns in front of the Club.

The result of that was the two line  "explanation" of the reasoning behind "splat" that came in the Club's announcement that the third kit was available for sale. I also got told during those conversations that the Club recognised that the reveal of "splat" was less than perfect and that they could have communicated it in a better way. I've since told the Club that the "explanation" was in my opinion (which I checked with other on here) not good enough. I've not heard back from that yet.

I don't know what you and others like @Henry want the SC&T to do but as always I'll say that if you want them to have effective weight with the Club, and if you want to influence what they fight for, what they care about, and how to do it, then it's very very very easy to join for £12 a year and have your say and give your input.

[frenchred]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

In those 61 pages you'll see that I have posted that I did contact the club when "splat" was revealed. This was not "official" SC&T communication though, so it was not for me to disclose or announce publicly on their behalf. I contacted the Club, and I happen to be an SC&T member (not a board member but a regular £12 a year bog-standard member) of the SC&T. I let the SC&T know about that contact and what came of it.

In fact I contacted the FA, EFL, and FSA and the EFL helped to get my concerns in front of the Club.

The result of that was the two line  "explanation" of the reasoning behind "splat" that came in the Club's announcement that the third kit was available for sale. I also got told during those conversations that the Club recognised that the reveal of "splat" was less than perfect and that they could have communicated it in a better way. I've since told the Club that the "explanation" was in my opinion (which I checked with other on here) not good enough. I've not heard back from that yet.

I don't know what you and others like @Henry want the SC&T to do but as always I'll say that if you want them to have effective weight with the Club, and if you want to influence what they fight for, what they care about, and how to do it, then it's very very very easy to join for £12 a year and have your say and give your input.

What really is the point of joining when the club so obviously do not recognise or have dialogue with them. They do not respect the fan base, ride rough shod over everyone and pay no real attention to the SC&t.

[Henry]

13 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

In those 61 pages you'll see that I have posted that I did contact the club when "splat" was revealed. This was not "official" SC&T communication though, so it was not for me to disclose or announce publicly on their behalf. I contacted the Club, and I happen to be an SC&T member (not a board member but a regular £12 a year bog-standard member) of the SC&T. I let the SC&T know about that contact and what came of it.

In fact I contacted the FA, EFL, and FSA and the EFL helped to get my concerns in front of the Club.

The result of that was the two line  "explanation" of the reasoning behind "splat" that came in the Club's announcement that the third kit was available for sale. I also got told during those conversations that the Club recognised that the reveal of "splat" was less than perfect and that they could have communicated it in a better way. I've since told the Club that the "explanation" was in my opinion (which I checked with other on here) not good enough. I've not heard back from that yet.

I don't know what you and others like @Henry want the SC&T to do but as always I'll say that if you want them to have effective weight with the Club, and if you want to influence what they fight for, what they care about, and how to do it, then it's very very very easy to join for £12 a year and have your say and give your input.

I admire your efforts in your voice. I’ll keep my £12 thanks.

I would expect the trust to be putting pressure on the club and issuing a statement representing fans view and what is being done about it.

There is enough evidence out there regarding fans views on the kit quality and badge change.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, Ska Junkie said:

Where's our away kit????

I expected it to be unveiled when Knight signed tbh. Maybe they're waiting for something?

It's gonna be blue. The only reason surely for the delay, so they can bury the news amongst other news. Wait for it to be announced the same day Scott is sold. No one will mention it as all the talk and news will be focused elsewhere 

[Ska Junkie]

8 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

It's gonna be blue. The only reason surely for the delay, so they can bury the news amongst other news. Wait for it to be announced the same day Scott is sold. No one will mention it as all the talk and news will be focused elsewhere 

Judging by the training gear I think you may be right.

[ExiledAjax]

26 minutes ago, frenchred said:

What really is the point of joining when the club so obviously do not recognise or have dialogue with them. They do not respect the fan base, ride rough shod over everyone and pay no real attention to the SC&t.

Sorry but in my opinion this is a lazy opinion akin to "why bother to vote, politicians just ignore us" or "why bother to get up in the morning when I'll only go to bed again in a few hours".

A) everyone that joins increases the weight of the SC&T and so increases the likelihood that the Club listen to them;

B) what's the alternative? Ad hoc "protests" or getting the Senior Reds to sort things out? Won't happen either; 

C) it's very hard to get the Club to listen to anyone. Legally they don't have to. Legally they can do everything you say they do - ride rough shod over everyone and pay no real attention to the SC&T. They can also do all of that if a bunch of fans email them or even turn up at the gates with pitchforks.

17 minutes ago, Henry said:

I admire your efforts in your voice. I’ll keep my £12 thanks.

I would expect the trust to be putting pressure on the club and issuing a statement representing fans view and what is being done about it.

There is enough evidence out there regarding fans views on the kit quality and badge change.

Thanks. Per their website you can contact the Supporters Club & Trust via any of the following means:

E-mail us at info@bristolcitysupporters.org

Write to us at:

B C S C T

PO BOX 3296

Bristol BS3 9HD

You can also interact with us via social media:

Twitter: @BristolCitySCT

Facebook: Bristol City Supporters Club & Trust

Note that "@ us on OTIB" is not an official method of contact.

Edited July 17, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[lenred]

23 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Sorry but in my opinion this is a lazy opinion akin to "why bother to vote, politicians just ignore us" or "why bother to get up in the morning when I'll only go to bed again in a few hours".

A) everyone that joins increases the weight of the SC&T and so increases the likelihood that the Club listen to them;

B) what's the alternative? Ad hoc "protests" or getting the Senior Reds to sort things out? Won't happen either; 

C) it's very hard to get the Club to listen to anyone. Legally they don't have to. Legally they can do everything you say they do - ride rough shod over everyone and pay no real attention to the SC&T. They can also do all of that if a bunch of fans email them or even turn up at the gates with pitchforks.

Thanks. Per their website you can contact the Supporters Club & Trust via any of the following means:

E-mail us at info@bristolcitysupporters.org

Write to us at:

B C S C T

PO BOX 3296

Bristol BS3 9HD

You can also interact with us via social media:

Twitter: @BristolCitySCT

Facebook: Bristol City Supporters Club & Trust

Note that "@ us on OTIB" is not an official method of contact.

Dont wish to turn this into a thread about leadership at the club, but I think point C about covers it.   I don’t think this ownership will ever listen to its supporters however many are signed up to whatever group - it’s just not in their nature.   See the ‘my club I’ll do what I want’ rant from Lansdown Senior during the Lee Johnson losing streak for confirmation of what they think of us when we dare raise our heads in disagreement with any of their decisions.   They don’t care what we think.   City is their toy and they’ll play with it as they wish.  

[The Journalist]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

In those 61 pages you'll see that I have posted that I did contact the club when "splat" was revealed. This was not "official" SC&T communication though, so it was not for me to disclose or announce publicly on their behalf. I contacted the Club, and I happen to be an SC&T member (not a board member but a regular £12 a year bog-standard member) of the SC&T. I let the SC&T know about that contact and what came of it.

In fact I contacted the FA, EFL, and FSA and the EFL helped to get my concerns in front of the Club.

The result of that was the two line  "explanation" of the reasoning behind "splat" that came in the Club's announcement that the third kit was available for sale. I also got told during those conversations that the Club recognised that the reveal of "splat" was less than perfect and that they could have communicated it in a better way. I've since told the Club that the "explanation" was in my opinion (which I checked with other on here) not good enough. I've not heard back from that yet.

I don't know what you and others like @Henry want the SC&T to do but as always I'll say that if you want them to have effective weight with the Club, and if you want to influence what they fight for, what they care about, and how to do it, then it's very very very easy to join for £12 a year and have your say and give your input.

Well done you for contacting all of the above off your own back - it's admirable that you went to those lengths and I personally appreciate the effort you went to.

I would push back on one point, though, and I guess goes back to the initial concern raised by @Sir Geoff - if your contact was just as a concerned fan and not an "official" SC&T communication - where was that communication? Where's the leadership of the SC&T? Why aren't they driving an agenda on this? And why would I join for £12 a month (where does that go, by the way?) if those representing me aren't doing that?

We're obviously a smaller club than Leeds, with a much smaller fan base, but when you look at the absolute stink they kicked up over their proposed change of badge (it became a pretty big national sports news story - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43157773) it shows what can be done. I refuse to believe that our current ownership is less engaged than the Leeds board at that time, who were notoriously out of the tune with the supporters!

A huge number of fans are pretty angry that the club have - without notice - taken a stock image off Getty and turned it into a new club crest that sits on one of our shirts, all over our training wear and on the wall of the training ground. And the absolute least the SC&T should be doing, in my opinion, is driving that feeling into the local press to apply wider pressure on the club.

Am I going over the top with this view? That's not a rhetorical question - completely happy if people want to tell me I'm misreading the room. The above is how I feel, but not necessarily everyone.

And, to add, while I'm saying this in reply to you, @ExiledAjax, these are by no means questions I'm expecting you to answer. You've done a lot more than the rest of us to hold the club to account as a lone fan.

Instinctively, I just feel like if the SC&T aren't going to represent the fanbase on a topic like this what's the actual point in them?

And, for what it's worth, without wishing to sound all Alastair Campbell, if anyone at the SC&T wants to come to me for help in getting this type of messaging a) across the club and b) into the media I'd love to help. I'm sure there'll be plenty like me who are the same.

(Sorry for turning all ranty!).

Edited July 17, 2023 by The Journalist

[frenchred]

11 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

Well done you for contacting all of the above off your own back - it's admirable that you went to those lengths and I personally appreciate the effort you went to.

I would push back on one point, though, and I guess goes back to the initial concern raised by @Sir Geoff - if your contact was just as a concerned fan and not an "official" SC&T communication - where was that communication? Where's the leadership of the SC&T? Why aren't they driving an agenda on this? And why would I join for £12 a month (where does that go, by the way?) if those representing me aren't doing that?

We're obviously a smaller club than Leeds, with a much smaller fan base, but when you look at the absolute stink they kicked up over their proposed change of badge (it became a pretty big national sports news story - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43157773) it shows what can be done. I refuse to believe that our current ownership is less engaged than the Leeds board at that time, who were notoriously out of the tune with the supporters!

A huge number of fans are pretty angry that the club have - without notice - taken a stock image off Getty and turned it into a new club crest that sits on one of our shirts, all over our training wear and on the wall of the training ground. And the absolute least the SC&T should be doing, in my opinion, is driving that feeling into the local press to apply wider pressure on the club.

Am I going over the top with this view? That's not a rhetorical question - completely happy if people want to tell me I'm misreading the room. The above is how I feel, but not necessarily everyone.

And, to add, while I'm saying this in reply to you, @ExiledAjax, these are by no means questions I'm expecting you to answer. You've done a lot more than the rest of us to hold the club to account as a lone fan.

Instinctively, I just feel like if the SC&T aren't going to represent the fanbase on a topic like this what's the actual point in them?

And, for what it's worth, without wishing to sound all Alastair Campbell, if anyone at the SC&T wants to come to me for help in getting this type of messaging a) across the club and b) into the media I'd love to help. I'm sure there'll be plenty like me who are the same.

(Sorry for turning all ranty!).

Very well said and certainly my feelings as well

I just don't see the SC & T doing enough for the fans to entice more to join

[Bristol Rob]

I won't quote @The Journalist as it was a long post, but I think SCAT are doing what they can against the backdrop of a club that don't really care what they offer.

Remember when we had the trust (aim to be share holders and get a seat on the board), the fans parliament, the senior reds AND a supporters club?

By trying to be all things to all groups you would have hoped that both the club and the fans group could maybe have achieved a bit more, but if all SCAT can do is react to club decisions rather than being part of the decision making process they are on a hiding to nothing.

If I have one bugbear with SCAT, is that the minutes seem to be written in Haiku with actions points taken away and NEVER closed or updated. Add to the fact a lot of the website isn't mobile friendly and it's one area that could be improved, but that's admin rather than performance.

As for our SLO, those who reach out to Jerry always report back positively, but it does appear to be very much as an employee of the club, rather than a conduit between seeking views of a wider group of unaffiliated fans and the club.

[phantom]

1 hour ago, frenchred said:

What really is the point of joining when the club so obviously do not recognise or have dialogue with them. They do not respect the fan base, ride rough shod over everyone and pay no real attention to the SC&t.

 

1 hour ago, Henry said:

I admire your efforts in your voice. I’ll keep my £12 thanks.

I would expect the trust to be putting pressure on the club and issuing a statement representing fans view and what is being done about it.

There is enough evidence out there regarding fans views on the kit quality and badge change.

So you both expect the SC&T to have done more but neither of you are prepared to join and boost numbers? 

[shahanshahan]

Hoping that this thread can indeed return to its original discussion point, but -  am speaking personally here - just to advise that the SC&T does have regular structured dialogue meetings with the club - especially since the MOU was signed with the club back in 2021. I am not involved in these particular meetings (my board member title is City Women Fans Representative & so my role is more on that side of the club) but rest assured that queries are being raised, especially following on from the Fan Led Review report (which would make sure that clubs don't recklessly make extreme changes such as change of colours or permanent badge without any consultation.

Everyone on the board is a volunteer (myself included) so I apologise if it feels like communication from ourselves is not always ever-present - or that it doesn't appear when some want it to be, especially on here. Communication is usually done via the website, social media or those that have signed up to the email list.

If anyone has any questions or other feedback, the best method is to email info@bristolcitysupporters.org

Anyway (as I'm sure I've said before) - I'm not a fan of the third shirt, and am not planning on buying it. I hope the away shirt is better.
Am I disappointed in the different badge being used on the front of the third shirt? Yes
Did I get the home shirt? Yes.

The SC&T doesn't get consultation in regards to kit design, but did raise concerns about the clashes of certain kit colours affecting colourblind people a while ago

[frenchred]

Just now, phantom said:

 

So you both expect the SC&T to have done more but neither of you are prepared to join and boost numbers? 

I would have expected them to have done something and made it public, we can't all join!

[ExiledAjax]

@The Journalist @frenchred @Bristol Rob thanks for all your points.

@The Journalist thanks for your kind words as well. Yes the legal power to ignore non-voting shareholders is at the heart of everything. Hence my very vocal support and other work I do for Fair Game - part of which is to try and ultimately get all clubs to be required to issue a golden share. Regulator, distributions, arguments, government etc. All fun and games but BCFC's attitude is "we'll wait under were told to do that thank you very much". Short-sighted and cowardly in my opinion, but I'm not in the boardroom or on the register of members.

Of course the SC&T should not be immune from criticism and I know that the guys that run it are always keen to improve the offering. It's volunteer run and led and everyone involved has full time jobs and family lives. Going up against a £30m business owned by a billionaire isn't easy, but they do make an effort. Maybe that's just word to some but I know they will always listen to a City fan with something to say - that's all I am after all.

I will just say that it's a fine line to tread between being listened to at all and being listened to a bit. It also very much depends on who is working at the Club. Under each of the last few CEOs there have been... different approaches shall we say. Some doors are more open than others. The current one ..it's ajar.

As I say, you can speak to these people, I know the a SC&T has a history longer than mine but in it's current guise I have found it useful, approachable, open and honest. 

Could the website improve - yes. Could minutes improve - yes. Could PR improve - probably. But personally I believe the way to get those changes is to support rather than attack. 

@shahanshahan I hope I've not misrepresented the SC&T in anyway.

1 minute ago, frenchred said:

I would have expected them to have done something and made it public, we can't all join!

We literally can all join.

I'll leave it there as this thread is really for kit chat. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[phantom]

2 minutes ago, frenchred said:

I would have expected them to have done something and made it public, we can't all join!

But if everyone sat back criticising and didn't join and do something about it where would we all be? 

[frenchred]

1 minute ago, phantom said:

But if everyone sat back criticising and didn't join and do something about it where would we all be? 

In my probably overly critical view, in the same boat as we are now?

[The Journalist]

Appreciate the replies @Bristol Rob @shahanshahan and @ExiledAjax - believe it or not, it wasn't really my intention to turn this into a SC&T-bashing exercise before I started typing so apologies for that.

I completely understand the club aren't necessarily as easy to deal with as they once were. That's pretty common place as clubs become more corporate and distant from the fans, so I have some sympathy. It must feel like you're shouting at the rain for it to stop sometimes.

All that said, there are ways of communicating with the club that don't involve directly communicating, of course. Over a topic as emotive and sensitive as a club badge it's important to know there are ways of getting messages across that can make life much more uncomfortable for them. You shouldn't be afraid to take that route - it's really important to us. You should be capable of doing that, in my opinion.

There's always a way, however aloof they are. And, like I say, I'm always happy to help with that sort of thing (and even chuck my £12 in!). I'm a DM away!

Anyway - sorry for absolutely derailing this thread. My fault. Let's get back to the kit... it's shit innit?

[Bristol Rob]

Just now, phantom said:

But if everyone sat back criticising and didn't join and do something about it where would we all be? 

Maybe it's time for SCAT to have a relaunch?

I would guess outside of this forum, very few people know what they could do, have done or what their aims are.

We have been told that we are welcome to join their meetings, but there isn't any invitation to table any agenda items and we don't get asked if there is anything we would like raised, but that is probably just the way things have always been rather than something that is done deliberately.

With wider social media reaches now (including podcasts), they might be able to attract a new group of supporters, and if not for SCAT then maybe the Senior Reds could bring in some new members.

No easy answer as everyone who contributes is doing this in their free time.

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, The Journalist said:

it's shit innit?

It really ******* is. As is all the Comms on it from the Club.

[glynriley]

8 minutes ago, shahanshahan said:

Hoping that this thread can indeed return to its original discussion point, but -  am speaking personally here - just to advise that the SC&T does have regular structured dialogue meetings with the club - especially since the MOU was signed with the club back in 2021. I am not involved in these particular meetings (my board member title is City Women Fans Representative & so my role is more on that side of the club) but rest assured that queries are being raised, especially following on from the Fan Led Review report (which would make sure that clubs don't recklessly make extreme changes such as change of colours or permanent badge without any consultation.

Everyone on the board is a volunteer (myself included) so I apologise if it feels like communication from ourselves is not always ever-present - or that it doesn't appear when some want it to be, especially on here. Communication is usually done via the website, social media or those that have signed up to the email list.

If anyone has any questions or other feedback, the best method is to email info@bristolcitysupporters.org

Anyway (as I'm sure I've said before) - I'm not a fan of the third shirt, and am not planning on buying it. I hope the away shirt is better.
Am I disappointed in the different badge being used on the front of the third shirt? Yes
Did I get the home shirt? Yes.

The SC&T doesn't get consultation in regards to kit design, but did raise concerns about the clashes of certain kit colours affecting colourblind people a while ago

The club will:

2) Use the structured dialogue format to consult about significant decisions such as any permanent ground move, change of club badge or substantial change to club colours.

This forms part of the MOU. I’d say the club have reneged on the deal already. 

[phantom]

Just now, Bristol Rob said:

Maybe it's time for SCAT to have a relaunch?

I would guess outside of this forum, very few people know what they could do, have done or what their aims are.

We have been told that we are welcome to join their meetings, but there isn't any invitation to table any agenda items and we don't get asked if there is anything we would like raised, but that is probably just the way things have always been rather than something that is done deliberately.

With wider social media reaches now (including podcasts), they might be able to attract a new group of supporters, and if not for SCAT then maybe the Senior Reds could bring in some new members.

No easy answer as everyone who contributes is doing this in their free time.

That's not true a post is put on OTIB and twitter every month advising when the upcoming meeting is, how to join and how to raise AOB 

As individuals we have to each take some responsibility for taking initiative to attend. 

I'm intrigued by @The JournalistJournalist you are clearly passionate about this topic why don't you offer your help?

Obviously too late for this kit fiasco and I am struggling to see why people are pointing the finger at the SC&T 

[Bristol Rob]

4 minutes ago, phantom said:

That's not true a post is put on OTIB and twitter every month advising when the upcoming meeting is, how to join and how to raise AOB 

As individuals we have to each take some responsibility for taking initiative to attend. 

I'm intrigued by @The JournalistJournalist you are clearly passionate about this topic why don't you offer your help?

Obviously too late for this kit fiasco and I am struggling to see why people are pointing the finger at the SC&T 

I hadn't seen that there was an opportunity to table a topic for discussion, so I've clearly missed that.

[The Journalist]

1 minute ago, phantom said:

I'm intrigued by @The JournalistJournalist you are clearly passionate about this topic why don't you offer your help?

Obviously too late for this kit fiasco and I am struggling to see why people are pointing the finger at the SC&T 

Not much to be intrigued by - I literally have offered to help. Twice. I think you're picking at the wrong person there.

And it's not necessarily too late. Too late to get the kits changed, obviously, but not too late to make life a bit more uncomfortable for the club over it (again, though, I can't stress enough that's only my personal view - I'm not trying to speak on behalf of anyone else).

[phantom]

2 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

Not much to be intrigued by - I literally have offered to help. Twice. I think you're picking at the wrong person there.

And it's not necessarily too late. Too late to get the kits changed, obviously, but not too late to make life a bit more uncomfortable for the club over it (again, though, I can't stress enough that's only my personal view - I'm not trying to speak on behalf of anyone else).

Certainly not picking on yourself, I'm just surprised someone as passionate about yourself that you are not more actively involved 

3 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

I hadn't seen that there was an opportunity to table a topic for discussion, so I've clearly missed that.

Just for a heads up the next meeting is currently scheduled for Wednesday 2nd August 

[Tim Monaghan]

I've been pretty vocal on this topic and it's not simply down to a bad kit. What I can't wrap my head around is the changing of the badge only a few years after we have launched it, albeit on a 3rd kit. It just baffles me. 

What I'm annoyed about (again) is the complete lack of commercial nouse that this club has. I thought we'd resolved it when we bought Hummel onboard, but yet again we've hit the self destruct button. I understand that we were screwed over by Hummels UK distributor, and that landed us in a bit of trouble. I understand that. I also understand that they probably had to design and make our new kit in half the time that it would normally take. But why doesn't the club come out and explain these things, especially when there are a lot of disgruntled fans. If they explained a few things it could actually help, but we get silence.  

We've talked a lot about FFP over the past few seasons and the importance of bringing in various revenue streams, but commercially we don't exist. In the training wear section of our shop we're selling 3 sets gloves (various sizes) in July!!!! It's almost borderline idiotic. 

This is probably a stupid question, but who is actually responsible for the commercial side of the business? 

 

[Tim Monaghan]

I mean, really? Absolute shambles. 

[elhombrecito]

3 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

I mean, really? Absolute shambles.