We can’t compete

[ChrisBW]

Just now, Redtucks said:

When people with the knowledge of football such as Pearson, Tinman et all decide on a player they feel will be beneficial to what they are trying to build, why it it stupid to ask why your experience of football finds such a decision questionable?

 

Is that a serious question? By your logic only those in the professional game are able to question signings. For clarity, Nicky Hunt was crap for us, Damion Stewart was crap for us, Ryan Mcgivern was crap for us, Matthew Bates was crap for us, Diony was crap for us the list goes on and on…..and so far Cornick and Mehmeti have had little impact, so therefore they are questionable signings, don’t need to be an elite professional footballer to see that.

[Top Robin]

12 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Forgotten how much of a mess this place is after a defeat. Suddenly everything and everyone is wrong.

You'd think we'd all be used to it, but I'm sure it never used to be this mental, even when we were in a much worse state than we are now.

I think fans are frustrated that Pearson has had 3 years to create an attractive and consistent team and that perhaps this season may have been the turning point after very average previous seasons.

When they see barely any chances created in our first 3 games of this season and 2 of those 3 games are dire performances, then justifiably some do start to worry.

[Street red]

3 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

Thanks @Magger1 for this post, for a second I thought we’d only lost one game. 
 

Just take a peek at Huddersfield Town’s magical 2016-2017 season. They started off with 1 win, 1 draw, and 4 losses in their first 6 matches. But guess what? They ended up getting promoted to the Premier League via the playoffs! So, don’t sweat the small stuff for now  – we’re just keeping things exciting for the grand finale!

 

ps, here were Burnley’s first few results last year. Chill.

Exactly this I'd rather start like we have than hitting the league like Ipswich we've been there before over and over top and we fall away,Sort the issues now get that winning side and find that momentum we will be fine.

[Redtucks]

7 minutes ago, ChrisBW said:

Is that a serious question? By your logic only those in the professional game are able to question signings. For clarity, Nicky Hunt was crap for us, Damion Stewart was crap for us, Ryan Mcgivern was crap for us, Matthew Bates was crap for us, Diony was crap for us the list goes on and on…..and so far Cornick and Mehmeti have had little impact, so therefore they are questionable signings, don’t need to be an elite professional footballer to see that.

Easy in hindsight.

So with all your knowledge which football club benefits from your opinion at present?

 

[marcofisher]

6 minutes ago, Top Robin said:

I think fans are frustrated that Pearson has had 3 years to create an attractive and consistent team and that perhaps this season may have been the turning point after very average previous seasons.

When they see barely any chances created in our first 3 games of this season and 2 of those 3 games are dire performances, then justifiably some do start to worry.

Most can also see though that his best players have been sold in the past 2 seasons now. He has to take credit for producing those players, and we would be an entirely different proposition if we still had those players. Not that we were wrong to sell them, but just to give balance to the “Pearson has had 3 years argument”. 
 

Just had a look at the departures this summer and previous 2, it is absolutely massive! 

[Simon bristol]

4 hours ago, joe jordans teeth said:

It won’t be hence we are snapping up people from lower leagues,if you think we are going to fork out 10 million on players then I’m not sure you understand how effed we were 

No one thinks we are going to spend 10 million on a player, getting twine in for 3-4 ought to have been possible though. to get some championship quality in will likely cost 3/4 million these days. If the club sells scott and isnt willing to finance these types of signings we might as well give up.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Top Robin said:

Nige has has 3 years to get together a team and squad' of his choice - some may say that is long enough. 

It's a worry that we still aren't great, but we should really give him a few more games this season to get some more consistent performances. 

If things aren't better in 4 ot 5 games then questions need to be asked.

 

2 1/2 years.

This is not his squad of choice.

This is a squad of compromise.

This summer should really have been the kind of squad he took over with a solid set of finances behind the club, to allow him to build “his squad” in “his image”.

 

 

[ChrisBW]

Just now, Davefevs said:

2 1/2 years.

This is not his squad of choice.

This is a squad of compromise.

This summer should really have been the kind of squad he took over with a solid set of finances behind the club, to allow him to build “his squad” in “his image”.

 

 

I don’t think Lansdown wants him here long term, all boils down to that imo.

[Midlands Robin]

The simple fact of the matter is that we don't generate enough revenue.

We avoided a FFP points deduction by the skin of our teeth;

If you look at the Deloitte annual review of football finance in 2021 (listed in their 2022 report) we had the 10th highest net debt in the Championship. In their 2023 report by 2022 we had the 9th highest net debt in the Championship.

Obviously, parachute payments help clubs to sustain operations at a higher level of debt and make it more likely for them to return to the PL when relegated. That much is clear. I've looked at the last 6 years and only a handful of teams have made the play offs without without having recently dropped out of the Premier League.

If we want to compete we have to get everything in place and add that sprinkle of luck. We need the right manager, with the right squad and we need momentum. Brentford are a model that would be great to match but they really are an outlier when it comes to gaining promotion to the top flight.

It's as easy to put yourself massively in debt trying to reach the promised land (Reading) as it is to get you there (Bournemouth).

[roddy-d]

USA

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

The simple fact of the matter is that we don't generate enough revenue.

We avoided a FFP points deduction by the skin of our teeth;

If you look at the Deloitte annual review of football finance in 2021 (listed in their 2022 report) we had the 10th highest net debt in the Championship. In their 2023 report by 2022 we had the 9th highest net debt in the Championship.

Obviously, parachute payments help clubs to sustain operations at a higher level of debt and make it more likely for them to return to the PL when relegated. That much is clear. I've looked at the last 6 years and only a handful of teams have made the play offs without without having recently dropped out of the Premier League.

If we want to compete we have to get everything in place and add that sprinkle of luck. We need the right manager, with the right squad and we need momentum. Brentford are a model that would be great to match but they really are an outlier when it comes to gaining promotion to the top flight.

It's as easy to put yourself massively in debt trying to reach the promised land (Reading) as it is to get you there (Bournemouth).

FFP won't be a worry, I'd say we do okay revenue wise for a non Parachute club tbh. 

The question is how far can we now reasonably push it

A) Having cut the wage and amortisation budget plus the Scott and Semenyo cash

B) Knowing that TV money rises next season

C) This brings onto point 3. Is SL willing still to fund the Cash losses and indeed the equity needed in conjunction with the £39m 3 Year rule?

[WessexPest]

What gets my hackles up when it comes to Pearson isn’t that we aren’t pushing for promotion, but that many of the issues plaguing City under the last two managers -  most notably terrible inconsistency and some bloody wretched performances - look nowhere close to being addressed. 

 

[Top Robin]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

2 1/2 years.

This is not his squad of choice.

This is a squad of compromise.

This summer should really have been the kind of squad he took over with a solid set of finances behind the club, to allow him to build “his squad” in “his image”.

 

 

Rubbish.

Why do people keep making excuses for him.

 

[Northern Red]

5 minutes ago, Top Robin said:

Rubbish.

Why do people keep making excuses for him.

 

To offset the likes of you wanting to hound him out whenever we don't win a game.

[Andy082005]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

2 1/2 years.

This is not his squad of choice.

This is a squad of compromise.

This summer should really have been the kind of squad he took over with a solid set of finances behind the club, to allow him to build “his squad” in “his image”.

 

 

Agree to an extent Dave - however, it was only a few weeks ago people were purring over the likes of Knight and Dickie signing and talking about this season being one where we start moving on an upward trajectory 

Yesterdays result wasn’t the concern. The performance was. Couple that with the one against Preston and let’s be honest - the Millwall game only produced one shot on target . 
 

I look at individual players and I just don’t see them improving. 
 

The James and Williams Centre pairing has to be addressed. Together they are no where near good enough, or quick enough - to command the midfield 

Sykes , Mehmeti, Cornick - not improved one jot 

….and god knows what’s happened to Pring 

Very early days but I’ve seen very little in the first 3 games to suggest we will break into the top half this season 

Let’s just hope we do bring in one or two before the window closes . 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Andy082005

[mozo]

7 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

To offset the likes of you wanting to hound him out whenever we don't win a game.

Do two wrongs make a right?

Given that Nige is one of the longest serving managers in the league I think that either,

A/ this is now his team, or

B/ no manager gets the luxury of their team

Naturally, we were in a mess when NP arrived, but he also inherited players like Scott, Pring, Semenyo, Conway, Bell, O'Leary, plus first teamers like Wells, Vyner and Weimann.

I personally think we have to say this Nige's team now. They sing to his tune.

I also think there's a good chance he'll make some necessary changes.

 

[Dr Balls]

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

FFP won't be a worry, I'd say we do okay revenue wise for a non Parachute club tbh. 

The question is how far can we now reasonably push it

A) Having cut the wage and amortisation budget plus the Scott and Semenyo cash

B) Knowing that TV money rises next season

C) This brings onto point 3. Is SL willing still to fund the Cash losses and indeed the equity needed in conjunction with the £39m 3 Year rule?

The third point is the most crucial one in terms of whether or not SL is serious about us reaching the Premier League. As I mentioned in another thread, the other teams that constitute Bristol Sport cost only a small fraction of Bristol City men, yet those teams have been relatively more successful in a shorter space of time. With the promotion of City Women, they all play in the top division of their sport, unlike us. However “success” is somewhat easier as the bar is not so high both in sporting  and particularly in financial terms.

The competition is intense at both Championship and even more so at Premier League level, and I just wonder if after 20+ years of ownership, SL just isn’t really that ambitious for us any more. He’s done what he can in terms of the ground and the training centre, but getting success on the pitch that can then be turned into a profit in the EPL is just too high risk with a very low chance of return, as realistically the only way a club without parachute payments is likely to make it out of the Championship and into the Premier League is through the playoffs, I.e. one spot per year.

As has been joked many times before, how do you become a millionaire  football club owner? Start off as a billionaire football club owner!

Given SL’s prudent financial background, that would seem to sit rather uncomfortably. At a commercial level, the club breaching FFP and being sanctioned would be a disaster for his wider business reputation, after taking his eye off the ball so to speak with LJ and Ashton, spending money like it was going out of fashion. That said, given his previous appointments, I still think he would prefer a “yes man bluffer” like LJ, who will tell him what he wants to hear, over a bluff realist with proper managerial credentials such as Pearson, who tells it as it really is, at least in private.

[East End Old Boy]

9 hours ago, ChrisBW said:

I don’t think Lansdown wants him here long term, all boils down to that imo.

Lansdown appears to be loyal to his employees, perhaps often for too long - so why doesn’t he want Pearson here long term?

[mozo]

20 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

The third point is the most crucial one in terms of whether or not SL is serious about us reaching the Premier League. As I mentioned in another thread, the other teams that constitute Bristol Sport cost only a small fraction of Bristol City men, yet those teams have been relatively more successful in a shorter space of time. With the promotion of City Women, they all play in the top division of their sport, unlike us. However “success” is somewhat easier as the bar is not so high both in sporting  and particularly in financial terms.

The competition is intense at both Championship and even more so at Premier League level, and I just wonder if after 20+ years of ownership, SL just isn’t really that ambitious for us any more. He’s done what he can in terms of the ground and the training centre, but getting success on the pitch that can then be turned into a profit in the EPL is just too high risk with a very low chance of return, as realistically the only way a club without parachute payments is likely to make it out of the Championship and into the Premier League is through the playoffs, I.e. one spot per year.

As has been joked many times before, how do you become a millionaire  football club owner? Start off as a billionaire football club owner!

Given SL’s prudent financial background, that would seem to sit rather uncomfortably. At a commercial level, the club breaching FFP and being sanctioned would be a disaster for his wider business reputation, after taking his eye off the ball so to speak with LJ and Ashton, spending money like it was going out of fashion. That said, given his previous appointments, I still think he would prefer a “yes man bluffer” like LJ, who will tell him what he wants to hear, over a bluff realist with proper managerial credentials such as Pearson, who tells it as it really is, at least in private.

The other question is, is Lansdown serious about attracting a US buyer? 

We've supposedly been on the market for a couple of years now, in which time US investors have bought Birmingham, Ipswich and Wrexham.

I think we all get the impression that Lansdown is being awkward about what he will and won't relinquish. That might not be true, but as ever under this reign, the PR has been obscure.

I'm really confused about what he is trying to achieve.

Edited August 20, 2023 by mozo

[Dr Balls]

8 minutes ago, mozo said:

The other question is, is Lansdown serious about attracting a US buyer? 

We've supposedly been on the market for a couple of years now, in which time US investors have bought Birmingham, Ipswich and Wrexham.

I think we all get the impression that Lansdown is being awkward about what he will and won't relinquish. That might not be true, but as ever under this reign, the PR has been obscure.

I'm really confused about what he is trying to achieve.

My thought is that given the set up of the various companies and entities (Bristol Sport, Pula Holdings etc,) just taking City’s men’s team out of it is more complicated than buying other clubs. Plus I don’t see SL relinquishing control of Ashton Gate or the new training ground, so what exactly is it that any new “owner” would actually own? The assets would be very minimal I.e. the players and staff at the club, all of whose value is both subjective and at risk of significant depreciation. That doesn’t look very attractive to me, and I dare say any potential overseas investor.

[Ciderhead433]

15 hours ago, Topper 123 said:

For all those happy clappers out there take heed , for the top brass to come out with a statement like that “ we cannot compete “ shows that they expect defeat , well us city fans have had years of that and are fed up to the back teeth with being served up SHIT week in week out , we sell the Crown Jewels and then  invest in Lidl , if you keep buying league 1 or 2 players we become a league 1 or 2 team we need quality weather from abroad or here , one minute owners say we don’t have to sell , then cop £25 million but can’t invest ? Does that make sense , let’s please get some owners in that have the FOOTBALL CLUB in the forefront of their agenda and not just buying investments in properties ie training grounds and pushing 17 year old under developed youngsters onto the pitch 

Then what's the point in playing and us turning up every week if we can't compete? 

We sell our best players to a club many times smaller than us because they have it seems unlimited amounts of cash. 

We may as well go back to League 1 

[mozo]

7 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

My thought is that given the set up of the various companies and entities (Bristol Sport, Pula Holdings etc,) just taking City’s men’s team out of it is more complicated than buying other clubs. Plus I don’t see SL relinquishing control of Ashton Gate or the new training ground, so what exactly is it that any new “owner” would actually own? The assets would be very minimal I.e. the players and staff at the club, all of whose value is both subjective and at risk of significant depreciation. That doesn’t look very attractive to me, and I dare say any potential overseas investor.

You might be bang on the money, in which case I'll shorthand that to SL not being serious about finding investors.

[eardun]

15 hours ago, David Brent said:

Is this the first use of “happy clappers” this season? Can’t say I’ve seen it before today. 

What’s the opposite of a happy clapper? Is it a sad boo-er?

[ExiledAjax]

2 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

My thought is that given the set up of the various companies and entities (Bristol Sport, Pula Holdings etc,) just taking City’s men’s team out of it is more complicated than buying other clubs. Plus I don’t see SL relinquishing control of Ashton Gate or the new training ground, so what exactly is it that any new “owner” would actually own? The assets would be very minimal I.e. the players and staff at the club, all of whose value is both subjective and at risk of significant depreciation. That doesn’t look very attractive to me, and I dare say any potential overseas investor.

Not that complicated really to just buy the Men's team. If someone really did want to buy just the Men's team then you would just sell the women's team up to Bristol City Holdings (which I honestly think should happen anyway). The mens team then sits with no subsidiaries and you'd could then just sell the men's club company.

BCFC Holdings would be left owning the women's team, and the stadium through Ashton Gate Ltd, and the new owner of the men's team would have that lot, the badge and other logos/IP, the EFL registration, and Failand (because it's Bristol City Football Club Limited that owns the training ground).

But as you say, who wants to just buy the men's team? The value lies in owning and controlling the whole package, and that means owning Bristol City Holdings Ltd. 

Ultimately though the mechanics of any restructuring, investment or sale will be driven not by sense but by tax advice. For Lansdown I believe that means that Pula Sport has to be the selling company, as then he's taxed on Guernsey rules not England/Wales (could be worth, not my speciality). So another reason to sell Holdings not BCFC Limited.

[1960maaan]

15 hours ago, Topper 123 said:

For all those happy clappers out there take heed , for the top brass to come out with a statement like that “ we cannot compete “ shows that they expect defeat , well us city fans have had years of that and are fed up to the back teeth with being served up SHIT week in week out , we sell the Crown Jewels and then  invest in Lidl , if you keep buying league 1 or 2 players we become a league 1 or 2 team we need quality weather from abroad or here , one minute owners say we don’t have to sell , then cop £25 million but can’t invest ? Does that make sense , let’s please get some owners in that have the FOOTBALL CLUB in the forefront of their agenda and not just buying investments in properties ie training grounds and pushing 17 year old under developed youngsters onto the pitch 

Just wandering around the forum and this is as bad a case of "Fake News" or picking things to fit your agenda I've seen.
There is a massive difference between, We can't compete (at this level?) and we can't compete ( on wages ) .
For those that didn't see the Bristol Post Headline, here is the actual quote.

[Mr Popodopolous]

52 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

The third point is the most crucial one in terms of whether or not SL is serious about us reaching the Premier League. As I mentioned in another thread, the other teams that constitute Bristol Sport cost only a small fraction of Bristol City men, yet those teams have been relatively more successful in a shorter space of time. With the promotion of City Women, they all play in the top division of their sport, unlike us. However “success” is somewhat easier as the bar is not so high both in sporting  and particularly in financial terms.

The competition is intense at both Championship and even more so at Premier League level, and I just wonder if after 20+ years of ownership, SL just isn’t really that ambitious for us any more. He’s done what he can in terms of the ground and the training centre, but getting success on the pitch that can then be turned into a profit in the EPL is just too high risk with a very low chance of return, as realistically the only way a club without parachute payments is likely to make it out of the Championship and into the Premier League is through the playoffs, I.e. one spot per year.

As has been joked many times before, how do you become a millionaire  football club owner? Start off as a billionaire football club owner!

Given SL’s prudent financial background, that would seem to sit rather uncomfortably. At a commercial level, the club breaching FFP and being sanctioned would be a disaster for his wider business reputation, after taking his eye off the ball so to speak with LJ and Ashton, spending money like it was going out of fashion. That said, given his previous appointments, I still think he would prefer a “yes man bluffer” like LJ, who will tell him what he wants to hear, over a bluff realist with proper managerial credentials such as Pearson, who tells it as it really is, at least in private.

I'd say it is quite depressing if SL is no longer willing to pay wages that give it a go. Not saying we should risk breaching, it should be carefully managed but medium term I can't see any major risk.

The other thing for me, has SL basically bet on a) The wage cap system (90-80-70 pct turnover) being in soon and has he also taken a bet on Championship wages remaining subdued for longer post Covid?

If so I fear the pattern is mixed, @Davefevs said a while ago but can't remember the wider context that wage requests are getting back to pre Covid numbers m at this level and paet of that is clubs gambling on the rise in TV money kicking in next year. Think it was Dave anyway.

If we are not partaking to some extent then we do risk going backwards.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Lew-T]

12 hours ago, mozo said:

I guess we have to bear in mind that Tanner is supposed to be back up for McCrorie, who currently has a mysterious injury.

Have been really disappointed with Tanner so far. Seems to have gone backwards somehow…

[Redrascal2]

Great to see Antoine score yesterday against Liverpool. Oh how we miss him. A striker with pace and a physical presence. Somebody who defences worry about. And we replaced him with Harry Cornick. No wonder our attack lacks potency. 

[extonsred]

...where has our super CEO gone...never puts himself out there, he should be the one telling us of our situation, our plans. RG spoke well from time to time...seen nothing of the  present guy...hardly know his name even!!

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Andy082005 said:

Agree to an extent Dave - however, it was only a few weeks ago people were purring over the likes of Knight and Dickie signing and talking about this season being one where we start moving on an upward trajectory 

Yesterdays result wasn’t the concern. The performance was. Couple that with the one against Preston and let’s be honest - the Millwall game only produced one shot on target . 
 

I look at individual players and I just don’t see them improving. 
 

The James and Williams Centre pairing has to be addressed. Together they are no where near good enough, or quick enough - to command the midfield 

Sykes , Mehmeti, Cornick - not improved one jot 

….and god knows what’s happened to Pring 

Very early days but I’ve seen very little in the first 3 games to suggest we will break into the top half this season 

Let’s just hope we do bring in one or two before the window closes . 

People need to stop latching on to one game opinions, and take a slightly longer term based opinion over 5/6/10 games.  I thought we played well last week against Millwall, but I wasn’t going overboard, proclaiming promotion.  People get a bit excited too quickly, both ways.

1 hour ago, Lew-T said:

Have been really disappointed with Tanner so far. Seems to have gone backwards somehow…

Preston - poor, especially with the ball

Millwall - good

Brum - poor, especially defensively (a rarity)

Too early to say how his season is going, but you could frame an early hypothesis, good for away games where we might need to his defensive solidity, need someone else for home games.