Lansdown - decision time

[nellie]

20 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Stability? SL himself has effectively put the club up for sale. Two years ago. Two years of waiting for an investment/buyer. How is that stability?

By effectively putting the club up for sale, SL is saying either he is unable, or unwilling, to take the club forward.

So, there is currently no stability, nor is there an option of it going forward under SL. 

He went to Bournemouth dint want rugby 

[beaverface]

I'm wondering if SL is making a rod for City's own back, by looking to create his legacy.

What I mean by that, is SL has always said he's wanted to leave a legacy, and I think the last remaining piece of that jigsaw is getting the basketball arena built and completed, and then once done he'll probably look to walk away in some capacity.

I do wonder, and there have been rumours by some on OTIB that any potential takeovers have been concerned about the lack of expandability of Ashton Gate in its current guise. I'm not suggesting this would happen, but building the arena on the Wickes site reduces the footprint of Ashton Gate and being able to be expand in that directionr.

So if the stadium can't be turned 90degrees (which is very unlikely anyway), that leaves only the Nelson Mandella flats and the houses on Ashton Road and Raynes Road as possible directions to expand into.

I guess it all boils down to the finances these "people" have, who are concerned about potential expansion. If you're talking Saudi money, then anything goes. If you're talking US money, then I think you're looking at expanding the stadium on what it can be expanded to now. Hopefully that make sense?! 

[Bristol Rob]

4 minutes ago, beaverface said:

I'm wondering if SL is making a rod for City's own back, by looking to create his legacy.

What I mean by that, is SL has always said he's wanted to leave a legacy, and I think the last remaining piece of that jigsaw is getting the basketball arena built and completed, and then once done he'll probably look to walk away in some capacity.

I do wonder, and there have been rumours by some on OTIB that any potential takeovers have been concerned about the lack of expandability of Ashton Gate in its current guise. I'm not suggesting this would happen, but building the arena on the Wickes site reduces the footprint of Ashton Gate and being able to be expand in that directionr.

So if the stadium can't be turned 90degrees (which is very unlikely anyway), that leaves only the Nelson Mandella flats and the houses on Ashton Road and Raynes Road as possible directions to expand into.

I guess it all boils down to the finances these "people" have, who are concerned about potential expansion. If you're talking Saudi money, then anything goes. If you're talking US money, then I think you're looking at expanding the stadium on what it can be expanded to now. Hopefully that make sense?! 

To be honest, I don't think the stadium is the issue.

Increasingly top flight clubs have less reliance on ticket sales, television money, sponsorship and hospitality appears to be where the cash is, so further development isn't likely to be needed.

 

[beaverface]

1 minute ago, Bristol Rob said:

To be honest, I don't think the stadium is the issue.

Increasingly top flight clubs have less reliance on ticket sales, television money, sponsorship and hospitality appears to be where the cash is, so further development isn't likely to be needed.

 

True, but im sure someone suggested expansion was a concern of a party wishing to invest.

[Ivorguy]

As so many of us have said over years, SL’s failure to make his idea ofBristol Sport work in the interests of City is now becoming clearer by the day.

It may well take a long time to get City on track to become a top Premier side.  Fear I shall now not live to see it.

Ironic thanks to SL from this ageing Robin

[fisherrich]

20 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

As so many of us have said over years, SL’s failure to make his idea ofBristol Sport work in the interests of City is now becoming clearer by the day.

It may well take a long time to get City on track to become a top Premier side.  Fear I shall now not live to see it.

Ironic thanks to SL from this ageing Robin

Agreed, Bristol Sport dilutes Bristol City Football Club. Been saying it for years on here. It is what it is.

As @Kid in the Riot states, Lansdown is not offering any stability whilst the club is up for sale (albeit by the back door). He needs results to improve, otherwise he knows he will be losing the support of many fans. Nige P will probably be Lansdown’s scapegoat. Personally IMO he should be backing Nige P. Obvious where fresh players are needed.
We just seem to go round in circles as a football club. But then, this is Bristol City.
 

Edited August 22, 2023 by fisherrich

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

As so many of us have said over years, SL’s failure to make his idea ofBristol Sport work in the interests of City is now becoming clearer by the day.

It may well take a long time to get City on track to become a top Premier side.  Fear I shall now not live to see it.

Ironic thanks to SL from this ageing Robin

You have indeed.  In my early days on OTIB, I asked you why.  This was before I started getting interested in the financial side.

[Bristol Rob]

27 minutes ago, beaverface said:

True, but im sure someone suggested expansion was a concern of a party wishing to invest.

I don't recall reading that, could be the case, but you would expect an investor to be looking for a return, either financially or by way of personal kudos. Both could he achieved with our current footprint... Assuming there is a massive amount of luck.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Stability? SL himself has effectively put the club up for sale. Two years ago. Two years of waiting for an investment/buyer. How is that stability?

By effectively putting the club up for sale, SL is saying either he is unable, or unwilling, to take the club forward.

So, there is currently no stability, nor is there an option of it going forward under SL. 

 

51 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

There is stability as long as SL is willing to underwrite the losses, what we will see, is limited investment.

I can see him spend to maintain, and if promotion occurs, CASH-BACK!

Not based on anything in particular, but I do have this feeling that as an individual, SL is reasonably content owning Bristol Sport, the problem is that the family desire* isn't there.

*And by desire, I mean that gifted-opportunity Boy who has a habit of touching things that go sour isn't the hands he wants to leave the club in. 

There is a fine line between stability and stasis.

He (SL) won't steer us onto the rocks be it solvency or FFP wise IMO but the slow building may well get a bit slower.

If SL can hand the club on with a good infrastructure, with a reduced cost base when sold, if he can hand it over to a new custodian with room to expand and invest then that subject to price of purchase can be a reasonable proposition.

If however he was to hand it in with sizeable accumulated losses x 2, a bloated squad, aging yet high earning etc that at this level definitely would be a problem. Short of promotion, it could be his best hope.

If we have a strong finish to the window then the next fortnight could prove me wrong. Hickman, Murphy and the 3 priority positions that we surely need.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hello Dave]

6 hours ago, Riaz said:

Lansdown got involved in some of the deals - thats all i'm saying on here.

If you’re talking about the Maguire and Gray deals, my information( I hate the word source) , is that Pelling messed both deals up, hence the sacking. If Lansdown messed with them, why hasn’t Pelling ever said anything? I’m not saying my information is right and yours is wrong, but it seems like another stick to beat Lansdown with.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Was it possible that Pelling was concerned about FFP implications hence trying to get them down a bit?

It was at that time £13m plus allowables in one year tests in December of the following season and in a downside risk, we could have stayed down and for an embargo in Janaury 2017. Was it that adding these two would max out the budget for other areas of the side within the framework?

At that time, stadium sales could not count towards offsetting losses, a bit like now again actually.

Otoh it may have been compliant and either helped us go up, or given us two major saleable assets. Upside.

[Merrick's Marvels]

4 minutes ago, Hello Dave said:

If you’re talking about the Maguire and Gray deals, my information( I hate the word source) , is that Pelling messed both deals up, hence the sacking. If Lansdown messed with them, why hasn’t Pelling ever said anything? I’m not saying my information is right and yours is wrong, but it seems like another stick to beat Lansdown with.

I find it hard to believe Pelling got involved with deals set up by the manager/chief scout, unless instructed to. 

And that instruction can only come from above. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Found an interview with Pelling actually just after promotion confirmed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/32383723

He stated that our wage budget would be bottom six, bottom seven of the Championship.

Would adding Maguire and Gray have fitted into this structure.

According to interviewer on this, Keith Burt stated that bottom 6, Bottom 7 wage budget in 2015-16 was possible.

00:38 onwards. Especially 01:58 to 02:30.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Riaz]

26 minutes ago, Hello Dave said:

If you’re talking about the Maguire and Gray deals, my information( I hate the word source) , is that Pelling messed both deals up, hence the sacking. If Lansdown messed with them, why hasn’t Pelling ever said anything? I’m not saying my information is right and yours is wrong, but it seems like another stick to beat Lansdown with.

Lansdown isn’t the person i’m criticising… i think he was right to pull the plug in those deals…

Edited August 22, 2023 by Riaz

[Hello Dave]

22 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I find it hard to believe Pelling got involved with deals set up by the manager/chief scout, unless instructed to. 

And that instruction can only come from above. 

He was the CEO, he would’ve got involved in the deals. Do you think Mark Ashton didn’t?

[Merrick's Marvels]

1 minute ago, Hello Dave said:

He was the CEO, he would’ve got involved in the deals. Do you think Mark Ashton didn’t?

I think he was a very different beast to Mark Ashton! 

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I think he was a very different beast to Mark Ashton! 

Different era too, when SL was still more involved back in 2015. Bristol Rugby/Bears were becoming more of an interest to him at that time, but were still fledgling. A petulant SC was starting to grate, and JL still had significant influence at the club.

It's very well documented, both privately and publicly, how the Lansdowns screwed SC over in the summer of 2015.

I've actually never even heard a convincing counter-argument from the Lansdowns, which says a lot. 

To try and blame it on some accountant, which is all John Pelling is, was laughable. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Kid in the Riot

[Cidre Monita]

Must admit I was looking forward to the Scott sale as it would subsequently highlight what SL’s true intentions are. Now it has all been laid bare - he had no intention of keeping to his part of the bargain after Nigel’s savage cost cutting exercise. As a previous poster said I thought there was a plan put in place post Scott sale which it looks like SL has reneged on. If ever a club needed needed a reboot with new ambitious ownership and investment it is us. Wake up City fans money is SL’s god and to hell with the glory. How much longer are you willing to put up with this?!! 

[Bristol Oil Services]

15 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

To be honest, I don't think the stadium is the issue.

Increasingly top flight clubs have less reliance on ticket sales, television money, sponsorship and hospitality appears to be where the cash is, so further development isn't likely to be needed.

 

Increasingly, top flight clubs are expanding their grounds and capacities. I think you've read this idea - that Prem clubs don't need ticket sales so aren't bothered about expansion - on here so often, as have I, and taken it on board.

Meanwhile, despite the wisdom of Otib, clubs at the top are either actually expanding, or looking into it. I think Leicester announced plans to go up to 40,000 seats but might well have pressed pause on this for now. Newcastle are looking at going up to 65,000, and have bought land behind one end of St James' Park. Liverpool are adding more seats currently. Tottenham have recently increased their capacity, Man City want to, have mentioned it. West Ham binned their atmospheric but cramped old ground for 60,000 seats. Even Everton are doing exactly this, adding capacity. Forest have applied to rebuild their old main stand, increasing capacity. Palace have sought permission to go up to 34,000. Wolves have announced plans to go to 50,000. Sheffield Utd to 40k, they have been granted permission. Chelsea have bought a bit of land adjoining Stamford Bridge. Everyone's at it, or thinking about it. Or just done it. Even bloody Bournemouth want to.

Ashton Gate's 27,000 (in reality, 26,000) will be a bit Luton/Bournemouth should we miraculously ever find ourselves there. While we're flat-lining in the Championship, there's no need. Should we ever be in the Prem for longer than a year or two, and want to stay, what we have now might not be enough. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Different era too, when SL was still more involved back in 2015. Bristol Rugby/Bears were becoming more of an interest to him at that time, but were still fledgling. A petulant SC was starting to grate, and JL still had significant influence at the club.

It's very well documented, both privately and publicly, how the Lansdowns screwed SC over in the summer of 2015.

I've actually never even heard a convincing counter-argument from the Lansdowns, which says a lot. 

To try and blame it on some accountant, which is all John Pelling is, was laughable. 

In that interview I posted, Pelling seemed to intimate that our wage bill for the coming season would have been in the bottom 6, bottom 7 for the Championship in fairness.

Maguire and Gray..what sort of wages were being offered? Were all departments aligned at time of bids etc, ie would it have been in keeping with that structure.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Glen hump]

15 hours ago, Hello Dave said:

If you’re talking about the Maguire and Gray deals, my information( I hate the word source) , is that Pelling messed both deals up, hence the sacking. If Lansdown messed with them, why hasn’t Pelling ever said anything? I’m not saying my information is right and yours is wrong, but it seems like another stick to beat Lansdown with.

Sl tried to change the deal for both players at the last minute, was told this by someone who would definitely know ‘ at the time he was working for city in a legal capacity.

[Mr Popodopolous]

36 minutes ago, Glen hump said:

Sl tried to change the deal for both players at the last minute, was told this by someone who would definitely know ‘ at the time he was working for city in a legal capacity.

Is there any chance then, that the deals for Maguire and or Gray would have fallen outside of the budget parameters available that summer- hence the reason for the attempted renegotiation.

Or is that 2 + 2 making 5?

If yes, and all departments not aligned at the point of the offer then such an offer should not have been made in the first instance.

Wolves it was reported had they bid for Scott to an acceptable level on the football side, the finance department would have pulled the plug.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

59 minutes ago, Glen hump said:

Sl tried to change the deal for both players at the last minute, was told this by someone who would definitely know ‘ at the time he was working for city in a legal capacity.

Yeah.  Stupid thing is under Dawe, whilst mentoring JL, Dawe put in place Burt as DoF to handle all playing side  budgets, contracts, recruitment etc.  All the things JL couldn’t do, and nor could Dawe with his health getting worse.  It led in part to 14/15, and that wonderful summer 14 recruitment.  Great video of Burt that summer talk about their plans.

And rather than let them (Burt and Cotts) do it again in summer of 15, they got interfered with.

Mr P will talk about FFP, but he’ll forget that the wage bill increase for Maguire and Gray (based on early summer agreements) plus maybe Fredericks and one or two more less high profile, would’ve meant we didn’t have to go and get Baker, Moore, Etc on loan.  So you can’t just add the potential cost of Maguire and Gray to the actual annual cost, it was more likely one or the other.  Not having a go Mr P, just stating likelihood.

Maguire, Gray and Fredericks didn’t have bad careers did they?

[RedRock]

1 hour ago, Cidre Monita said:

Must admit I was looking forward to the Scott sale as it would subsequently highlight what SL’s true intentions are. Now it has all been laid bare - he had no intention of keeping to his part of the bargain after Nigel’s savage cost cutting exercise. As a previous poster said I thought there was a plan put in place post Scott sale which it looks like SL has reneged on. If ever a club needed needed a reboot with new ambitious ownership and investment it is us. Wake up City fans money is SL’s god and to hell with the glory. How much longer are you willing to put up with this?!! 

May be some truth here. Not a body language/behaviourist expert but do I detect a recent subtle shift in mood and conduct from Nige. Whether that’s because SL has reneged on something to do with Scott’s sale, the general ‘mood music’ set by SL,  or he realises he’s not going to achieve what he wants with the Club within his own set timeframe, who knows. It is, at least to me, becoming apparent though he ain’t going to stick around after this Season. Not a particularly healthy situation.

Can see SL wanting to get things sorted sooner rather than later. However, SLs ability to entice Mark Robins from Cov - who I’m sure has always been and still is one of his favourite choices - is likely becoming increasingly more difficult.

So quite possibly we are going to be stuck ‘in limbo’ with an owner who wants out and a manager who is going out. Bristol City eh! 

[Glen hump]

47 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Is there any chance then, that the deals for Maguire and or Gray would have fallen outside of the budget parameters available that summer- hence the reason for the attempted renegotiation.

Or is that 2 + 2 making 5?

If yes, and all departments not aligned at the point of the offer then such an offer should not have been made in the first instance.

Wolves it was reported had they bid for Scott to an acceptable level on the football side, the finance department would have pulled the plug.

Not sure, it came across as sl trying to be clever and it pissed both selling clubs off big time 

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah.  Stupid thing is under Dawe, whilst mentoring JL, Dawe put in place Burt as DoF to handle all playing side  budgets, contracts, recruitment etc.  All the things JL couldn’t do, and nor could Dawe with his health getting worse.  It led in part to 14/15, and that wonderful summer 14 recruitment.  Great video of Burt that summer talk about their plans.

And rather than let them (Burt and Cotts) do it again in summer of 15, they got interfered with.

Mr P will talk about FFP, but he’ll forget that the wage bill increase for Maguire and Gray (based on early summer agreements) plus maybe Fredericks and one or two more less high profile, would’ve meant we didn’t have to go and get Baker, Moore, Etc on loan.  So you can’t just add the potential cost of Maguire and Gray to the actual annual cost, it was more likely one or the other.  Not having a go Mr P, just stating likelihood.

Maguire, Gray and Fredericks didn’t have bad careers did they?

Yeah true Dave, had we got those in it may have saved in other areas.

Why did Fredericks  leave so soon anyway? Went on to have a decent career for sure and unlike the others his actually went through..Gray and Kodjia up front, Maguire who drops our Williams I guess. Would have been very interesting for sure and a real boost to morale. Cotts would not have been unhappy either.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[One Team]

1 hour ago, Glen hump said:

Sl tried to change the deal for both players at the last minute, was told this by someone who would definitely know ‘ at the time he was working for city in a legal capacity.

Very interesting but not that surprising.

[Glen hump]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah.  Stupid thing is under Dawe, whilst mentoring JL, Dawe put in place Burt as DoF to handle all playing side  budgets, contracts, recruitment etc.  All the things JL couldn’t do, and nor could Dawe with his health getting worse.  It led in part to 14/15, and that wonderful summer 14 recruitment.  Great video of Burt that summer talk about their plans.

And rather than let them (Burt and Cotts) do it again in summer of 15, they got interfered with.

Mr P will talk about FFP, but he’ll forget that the wage bill increase for Maguire and Gray (based on early summer agreements) plus maybe Fredericks and one or two more less high profile, would’ve meant we didn’t have to go and get Baker, Moore, Etc on loan.  So you can’t just add the potential cost of Maguire and Gray to the actual annual cost, it was more likely one or the other.  Not having a go Mr P, just stating likelihood.

Maguire, Gray and Fredericks didn’t have bad careers did they?

Maguire was keen on the move, was told gray needed a bit more convincing but both deals were definitely done until sl interference, I can tell you who told me as the blokes long retired it was a solicitor who used to do city’s legal contracts 

[sh1t_ref_again]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah true Dave, had we got those in it may have saved in other areas.

Why did Fredericks  leave so soon anyway? Went on to have a decent career for sure and unlike the others his actually went through..Gray and Kodjia up front, Maguire who drops our Williams I guess. Would have been very interesting for sure and a real boost to morale. Cotts would not have been unhappy either.

Was it not the rumour he had a fight with Bradley Ore, or am I thinking of someone else

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 minute ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Was it not the rumour he had a fight with Bradley Ore, or am I thinking of someone else

Mark Little