Lansdown - decision time

[red panda]

1 hour ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

I lost respect for the owner when he did the Tinnion and Millen mistake again with Holden. Still getting over it now! He’s been great for the infrastructure of the club but football decisions on the whole have been poor. Cotterill another who was let go too soon and not backed. Someone else who inherited a mess. LJ was given so much backing it was unreal! He should have been sacked for finishing 11th after being 2nd in the January. 

But there's no magic recipe for a successful manager.  Sometimes rookie appointments work, other times they don't.  Equally, sometimes experienced appointments work and other times they don't.  Holden seems to have found other jobs quite easily, so there must be others out there who see something in him.  Many people on this board were crying out for Hughton, but he bombed at Forest and perhaps we dodged a bullet there?  Eddie Howe's appointment at Burnley didn't work out, but his replacement by a journeyman lower league defender with a single year's managerial experience certainly did.  Hindsight is wonderful.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

It was the progressive appointment interview on Talksport followed by the six week vigorous process to appoint someone who should never have been in the running. I would have gone for a proven manager as did many at the time. Even Alex Neil would have been a better option. 

I deep down wanted Paul Cook, but I think whoever came in was on a bit of a hiding to nothing under the set-up we had in place.  I thought Cook (like Cotts) had a good eye for a player, and maybe he’d have brought Leam Richardson with him too?

Thats why I wanted LJ to call it (the set-up) out, if anyone had SL’s ear it was him.  I’m looking forward to reading his books, because if there really is at least “three books worth”, then he did himself a disservice and us fans too by not sorting it!  Many will disagree with me.  Enough digression about LJ though.

Cook for me was a bit like Gary Johnson (those bloody Johnsons!!!), had earned his spurs and think he needed a club like us to show his ability.  It makes no difference that he bombed at Ipswich, just like it makes no difference that Hughton didn’t set the world alight at Forest.  Each club is different.  I think City was the natural progression for Cook.

I believe he (Cook) was interviewed (more than once) and I think he saw the problems.  The story is he pretty much removed his interest during the interview with JL and MA.  No surprise they (Cook and MA) clashed at Ipswich.

Neil I never quite wanted, probably bias around his cynical teams.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The Cook bit is a new and interesting one, our model at that time in effect put him off @Davefevs ?

Is a shame, it would have been interesting to see what he might have done injuries permitting with some of our players but who knows if the injury crisis would have hit no matter what as by January, February it was truly unprecedented.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Supersonic Robin]

4 hours ago, P'head Red said:

It's a precarious position our club is in when we start talking about life after SL. Yes, we've not gone on to gain promotion to the premier League under his ownership, but we have had, for the most part, financial stability. 

I for one am fairly nervous about the prospect of new owners coming in, the rise and fall of certain clubs in recent years due to poor ownership has been alarming. 

I think the danger of new ownership is often exaggerated. How many clubs have genuinely fallen to pieces or gone bust following a change of ownership? Surely it's a very small minority.

Sure, there is risk and uncertainty involved, but those are necessary elements for potential growth and success. The rise and fall of other clubs that you describe as "alarming" may also be interpreted as "exciting". I firmly doubt that there are many clubs who are jealous of our stability in the bottom half of the Championship.

I even feel there's an argument to say that things couldn't get worse under a new owner. If our goal is Premier League football, then we've pretty conclusively shown that we won't achieve it under the Lansdowns. Under our current ownership, the chance of us achieving our goals appears to be close to 0%. Surely, therefore, any change will be movement in the right direction. Movement away from something which clearly doesn't work must be considered as positive movement - we HAVE to try something new. 

As Einstein's famous saying goes "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". Unfortunately, I feel that's where we are with the Lansdowns.

[Shauntaylor85]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I deep down wanted Paul Cook, but I think whoever came in was on a bit of a hiding to nothing under the set-up we had in place.  I thought Cook (like Cotts) had a good eye for a player, and maybe he’d have brought Leam Richardson with him too?

Thats why I wanted LJ to call it (the set-up) out, if anyone had SL’s ear it was him.  I’m looking forward to reading his books, because if there really is at least “three books worth”, then he did himself a disservice and us fans too by not sorting it!  Many will disagree with me.  Enough digression about LJ though.

Cook for me was a bit like Gary Johnson (those bloody Johnsons!!!), had earned his spurs and think he needed a club like us to show his ability.  It makes no difference that he bombed at Ipswich, just like it makes no difference that Hughton didn’t set the world alight at Forest.  Each club is different.  I think City was the natural progression for Cook.

I believe he (Cook) was interviewed (more than once) and I think he saw the problems.  The story is he pretty much removed his interest during the interview with JL and MA.  No surprise they (Cook and MA) clashed at Ipswich.

Neil I never quite wanted, probably bias around his cynical teams.

An LJ book? I cannot think of something I would sooner use as fish and chip paper! A load of nonsense no doubt! As I said, wouldn’t welcome him back to BS3 ever in any capacity. 

[One Team]

1 hour ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

An LJ book? I cannot think of something I would sooner use as fish and chip paper! A load of nonsense no doubt! As I said, wouldn’t welcome him back to BS3 ever in any capacity. 

I agree with you but it would never surprise me. You can already see a headline of “unfinished business” with SL and LJ arm in arm proclaiming the Premier League is within touching distance. 

[Show Me The Money!]

1 hour ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

An LJ book? I cannot think of something I would sooner use as fish and chip paper! A load of nonsense no doubt! As I said, wouldn’t welcome him back to BS3 ever in any capacity. 

Bit harsh to say you wouldn't welcome him back in any capacity. Ok, we wouldn't want to have him back in any club role and i wouldn't say I'm desperate to read his book but he did give his best for the team and did progress our league position season on season till his demise including getting us in the mix for the playoffs. The football may not have been great at times and he did get through a fair amount of players but the club supported him. Not his fault

[sh1t_ref_again]

7 hours ago, Supersonic Robin said:

I think the danger of new ownership is often exaggerated. How many clubs have genuinely fallen to pieces or gone bust following a change of ownership? Surely it's a very small minority.

Sure, there is risk and uncertainty involved, but those are necessary elements for potential growth and success. The rise and fall of other clubs that you describe as "alarming" may also be interpreted as "exciting". I firmly doubt that there are many clubs who are jealous of our stability in the bottom half of the Championship.

I even feel there's an argument to say that things couldn't get worse under a new owner. If our goal is Premier League football, then we've pretty conclusively shown that we won't achieve it under the Lansdowns. Under our current ownership, the chance of us achieving our goals appears to be close to 0%. Surely, therefore, any change will be movement in the right direction. Movement away from something which clearly doesn't work must be considered as positive movement - we HAVE to try something new. 

As Einstein's famous saying goes "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". Unfortunately, I feel that's where we are with the Lansdowns.

So what is it you want new owners to do?

[Bristol Oil Services]

12 hours ago, Riaz said:

After 1 loss

Don't just focus on outcomes, keep an eye on performance. At home. And listen to the crowd (the funereal silence during the games, the reaction at the final whistle). Crowd has booed at first 2 home league games.

2 × poor (consecutive) home performances + another sale of best player = ......

[Mr Popodopolous]

48 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Don't just focus on outcomes, keep an eye on performance. At home. And listen to the crowd (the funereal silence during the games, the reaction at the final whistle). Crowd has booed at first 2 home league games.

2 × poor (consecutive) home performances + another sale of best player = ......

Don't think the Preston game was that bad. Was a bit underwhelming sure.

[Riaz]

1 hour ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Don't just focus on outcomes, keep an eye on performance. At home. And listen to the crowd (the funereal silence during the games, the reaction at the final whistle). Crowd has booed at first 2 home league games.

2 × poor (consecutive) home performances + another sale of best player = ......

Dont just focus on negatives - an average start after 3 games - but there are positives, including a good performance away from home. And plenty of youngsters -who will inevitably have bad games.

[Riaz]

11 hours ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

I lost respect for the owner when he did the Tinnion and Millen mistake again with Holden. Still getting over it now! He’s been great for the infrastructure of the club but football decisions on the whole have been poor. Cotterill another who was let go too soon and not backed. Someone else who inherited a mess. LJ was given so much backing it was unreal! He should have been sacked for finishing 11th after being 2nd in the January. 

A myth. He was backed, but he went for unrealistic targets, such as dwight gayle.

11 hours ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

I lost respect for the owner when he did the Tinnion and Millen mistake again with Holden. Still getting over it now! He’s been great for the infrastructure of the club but football decisions on the whole have been poor. Cotterill another who was let go too soon and not backed. Someone else who inherited a mess. LJ was given so much backing it was unreal! He should have been sacked for finishing 11th after being 2nd in the January. 

Another myth. Plenty of player sales and he was usually spending money to replace player. And we were moving up the table, where yes, the wage bill did go up, but so did we up the table. Which was never going happen under cotts

[Spike]

23 hours ago, Shuffle said:

So in the last 6 months we have lost the following from our wage bill;

Klose, Martin, Semenyo, Bentley, HNM, Baker, Wilson, Scott, JD, Moore, Kalas & reduced Wells salary by potentially half.

We’ve added Cornick, Memehti, Roberts,McCrorie, Knight & Dickie & increased cost base with new deals for Atkinson/Tanner.

Not only have we significantly reduced wage bill but also reduced squad depth to currently 19 available to choose from (inc 2 academy defenders & Yeboah).  
 

Also generated £35m in transfers out & lost our 2 best players in process & spent £5.5m on new recruits.

Im sure @Mr Popodopolous & @Davefevs can be more concise with projected savings & if I’ve missed anything. Whilst some of the signings have yet to prove their value (jury out still) surely if we are going to progress now is the time to release some funds and review any internal targets associated with wage bill limits.

I know this is easy for me to say as it’s not my money but I’m cannot see how we can progress this season without further funds & whilst I’m not always happy with Nige, he continues to work with handcuffs on.  Nobody expects us to go to the Ashton days of huge signings/wages but not sure how we progress. Time will tell which way he went. 

 

I do agree but also wonder how bad the finances are/were. 

I was reading the rules of losses the other day and it said

Quote

• The maximum loss limit is now £13m per Championship season (or £5m a season of the owner does not inject equity to cover losses).
•  Losses are assessed over three seasons (rather than just over the single, previous season)

so going by that over the three seasons you cannot lose more than £39 million?
If that's the case then being as there were rumours of us getting close to a point deduction I would assume we lost around £35m+ ?

I don't know the exact numbers but if we've generated £35m and reduced the wages then my thoughts are that right now we still don't have a lot to spend without risking inflating numbers back up and potentially finding ourselves in the same situation in a few seasons time? I'm starting to think for the next couple of seasons we may be essentially "reset" with our transfers in order to keep the finances in check. I'm also curious to see how the O'Neills deal is doing for us being as they make such awful merch I would imagine we're not making a lot of money from that?

Personally I think the only investment we should be making this season is a couple of players with some flair and creativity and then the spending should be stopped to allow us to build up a buffer to prevent this situation from arising again as sooner or later Lansdown may sell and I'd be surprised if the new owner would want to pump money into the club like SL has. SL gets a lot of abuse from our fans but I do think one of the reasons we feel so comfortable financially at times is because he's forever bailing this club out and sooner or later I can see him becoming dejected with the club as he keeps pumping money in and the fans do nothing but say "spend more". I think the plan is to reduce spending more if anything, in order to show the club can support itself and make it a better option for buyers than it being something to keep pumping money into without it ever paying back out.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 minutes ago, Spike said:

I do agree but also wonder how bad the finances are/were. 

I was reading the rules of losses the other day and it said

so going by that over the three seasons you cannot lose more than £39 million?
If that's the case then being as there were rumours of us getting close to a point deduction I would assume we lost around £35m+ ?

I don't know the exact numbers but if we've generated £35m and reduced the wages then my thoughts are that right now we still don't have a lot to spend without risking inflating numbers back up and potentially finding ourselves in the same situation in a few seasons time? I'm starting to think for the next couple of seasons we may be essentially "reset" with our transfers in order to keep the finances in check. I'm also curious to see how the O'Neills deal is doing for us being as they make such awful merch I would imagine we're not making a lot of money from that?

Personally I think the only investment we should be making this season is a couple of players with some flair and creativity and then the spending should be stopped to allow us to build up a buffer to prevent this situation from arising again as sooner or later Lansdown may sell and I'd be surprised if the new owner would want to pump money into the club like SL has. SL gets a lot of abuse from our fans but I do think one of the reasons we feel so comfortable financially at times is because he's forever bailing this club out and sooner or later I can see him becoming dejected with the club as he keeps pumping money in and the fans do nothing but say "spend more". I think the plan is to reduce spending more if anything, in order to show the club can support itself and make it a better option for buyers than it being something to keep pumping money into without it ever paying back out.

I won't get too bogged down but IMO we are now well clear of FFP.

That's £39m plus allowable costs over 3 years, sale of Semenyo sealed our compliance to 2023, sale of Scott pushed us significantly into credit FFP wise ie well clear now.

That could be true, make the club as saleable for investors or a buyer as possible. Or simply for SL to reduce the amount he has to put in each season and make us as self-sufficent as possible in the short term, medium term investors may like.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Ah yes on the financial point the key metric here is Cash Flow etc.

That Proceeds of Shares bit is SL unless there are any other hidden investors but no surely it's SL.

Otoh each £1 converted is £1 less that we as a club have to repay him (could be included in any purchase price, time will tell).

It's actually ludicrous that an organisation in a normal year (forget Covid) turning over £25-30m should need to do this. It's insane taking a step back from football specific bubble.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[RedRock]

Unfortunately, I think we’re heading for another period of ‘transition’. 

Despite a few wobbles, I’ve backed Nige. However, my interpretation from those (unwise?) national press interviews is that he’s not going to continue after his current contract with us expires. That’s not a good situation for the Club to be in. I think Nige views this Season as his final last push. However, unless one or, ideally, both of his match-changers/winners - Cornick and Mehmeti - start delivering we’re going to struggle to push for the play-offs.

I think the construction of the foundations for the next regime may already be under way with Steve reserving the majority of the war-chest of finances from Scott’s sale for the next incumbent. 

Lummydaze, I know ‘these things take time’, but in Bristol City’s case it’s a seeming eternity! 

[Fred89]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I deep down wanted Paul Cook, but I think whoever came in was on a bit of a hiding to nothing under the set-up we had in place.  I thought Cook (like Cotts) had a good eye for a player, and maybe he’d have brought Leam Richardson with him too?

Thats why I wanted LJ to call it (the set-up) out, if anyone had SL’s ear it was him.  I’m looking forward to reading his books, because if there really is at least “three books worth”, then he did himself a disservice and us fans too by not sorting it!  Many will disagree with me.  Enough digression about LJ though.

Cook for me was a bit like Gary Johnson (those bloody Johnsons!!!), had earned his spurs and think he needed a club like us to show his ability.  It makes no difference that he bombed at Ipswich, just like it makes no difference that Hughton didn’t set the world alight at Forest.  Each club is different.  I think City was the natural progression for Cook.

I believe he (Cook) was interviewed (more than once) and I think he saw the problems.  The story is he pretty much removed his interest during the interview with JL and MA.  No surprise they (Cook and MA) clashed at Ipswich.

Neil I never quite wanted, probably bias around his cynical teams.

I think Alex Neil is exactly the type of coach we need right now. Pearson has steadied the ship I believe his part in our history will be appreciated long term but it won’t conclude with promotion! We need someone who can light a fire in us now and get the absolute best out of this squad! I just don’t feel the ambition or drive to repeat his past achievements (Pearson) it all seems abit accepted when we lose I don’t get the impression many loud words are traded in our dressing room 

[Spike]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I won't get too bogged down but IMO we are now well clear of FFP.

That's £39m plus allowable costs over 3 years, sale of Semenyo sealed our compliance to 2023, sale of Scott pushed us significantly into credit FFP wise ie well clear now.

That could be true, make the club as saleable for investors or a buyer as possible. Or simply for SL to reduce the amount he has to put in each season and make us as self-sufficent as possible in the short term, medium term investors may like.

ok but do we have any assets we can sell, realistically speaking?
I'd say our only real sellable asset now is Conway and he's injured and has had a fair few injuries for a younger player which makes me think whilst we may be clear of FFP now if we bring in some signings that adds wages back on, it costs money to sign the players and if they do not work out and have no sell on value then in a few seasons we could be in a position of needing to balance the books again only we have no assets to sell?

I'm using a lot of ?'s because simply put, whilst we have knowledgeable fans who follow a lot of this, I'd imagine that there is a lot of information within the club on future plans etc that could be a reason for us not to reinvest. O'Neills certainly seems like a questionable part of the financial future based on the awful merch they are putting out, and whilst the stadium may be full of replica kits we have to remember, these are the people pumping money into tickets week after week, this is their prime spending but when it comes to merch the real money needs to be made off of the casuals as the fans in the stadium are probably considered "highly likely sales". 

As the club stands I think we're actually at the point where SL is turning the club into what he wants from it now, it's own entity and I honestly think his plan is to withdraw from financially holding it up and let it pay for itself and once it can do that it's a much better purchase for a buyer.

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Spike said:

ok but do we have any assets we can sell, realistically speaking?
I'd say our only real sellable asset now is Conway and he's injured and has had a fair few injuries for a younger player which makes me think whilst we may be clear of FFP now if we bring in some signings that adds wages back on, it costs money to sign the players and if they do not work out and have no sell on value then in a few seasons we could be in a position of needing to balance the books again only we have no assets to sell?

I'm using a lot of ?'s because simply put, whilst we have knowledgeable fans who follow a lot of this, I'd imagine that there is a lot of information within the club on future plans etc that could be a reason for us not to reinvest. O'Neills certainly seems like a questionable part of the financial future based on the awful merch they are putting out, and whilst the stadium may be full of replica kits we have to remember, these are the people pumping money into tickets week after week, this is their prime spending but when it comes to merch the real money needs to be made off of the casuals as the fans in the stadium are probably considered "highly likely sales". 

As the club stands I think we're actually at the point where SL is turning the club into what he wants from it now, it's own entity and I honestly think his plan is to withdraw from financially holding it up and let it pay for itself and once it can do that it's a much better purchase for a buyer.

Provided we don't go stupid I won't worry about FFP for us until 2026-27!

Trust me we're fine for that. £39m over 3 years plus allowables. TV money to rise, the Scott profit stays on the books for this season, next season and the season after.

O'Neill's yes one to watch sure. The Commercial off-field non matchday events, TV momey etc all need factoring in too.

Well that would be appalling timing given the great salvage job NP and Gould did even if it would make some business sense. Would be terribly unfair too.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Winterstoke toad]

13 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Not really, just pointing out like most of the rubbish on here people change or invent fact to try and make their point

Could have turned and said at least we have been a stable championship side for a number of years, unlike 

Derby, Portsmouth, Reading, Blackpool, Barnely, Wigan, Bolton, Charlton, Bradford, Crewe, Doncaster, Notts County Swindon

But the grass is always greener elsewhere

And most of those clubs you mentioned wouldn’t swap their history and brief times of success for ours . The two that wouldn’t is Crewe and Doncaster and if we’re being compared to them we might as well all give up .

[Mr Popodopolous]

There is one other bit to mention of course.

Unless there is a legal and binding contract x years in advance, SL could in theory tomorrow stop putting cash or equity in, to run us purely on a cash break even basis.

There's nothing to stop him from legally doing so.

Escrow or something similar might be one relevant term.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[downendcity]

19 hours ago, BLRed said:

Don’t care as to the reaction but what really needs to happen is for the Lansdown to sell up and bugger off and let proper football owners help us progress further. They are definitely holding us back imo. Don’t care for the sentiment of he always saves us financially, that’s his job as an owner. The fact he has to do that all the time shows he’s not a very good football club owner. How many clubs have passed us whilst we continue to tread water? Get them gone and then we can move forward

Is that proper American Football owners?

[ExiledAjax]

@Spike hence Lansdown's comment that it would help/be nice to sell a £25m player every season. Scott and Semenyo have bought us time, but their sales will eventually drop out of the 3 year cycle and if we've not kept up sales or drastically cut costs by that point then we'll be in FFP trouble again (assuming the rules haven't changed).

We're good for the next couple of years without selling anyone, but would then in say 2025/26 need to sell someone for £20m(ish). There's absolutely no guarantee of being able to do that.

@Mr Popodopolous at risk  of turning this into a financial thread - I'm thinking we may be looking at a break even position for the 2023/24 accounts? Possibly even a small profit? Subject to any further transfers in/out this season, but Scott's money should cover 90% of our overheads pretty comfortably.

[Merrick's Marvels]

3 hours ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

So what is it you want new owners to do?

Off the top of my head - To have a better plan than the current owner, who's had over 20 years to think of a winning one. To have a better understanding of what it takes to run a football club. To be a better communicator. Not to make appointments based on nepotism or favouritism. Not to make pronouncements that go "it's my club". To have a better antenna for bullshitters and snake oil salesmen. To understand that, appointing people just because they're easy to get on with, is not the basis on which to run any business let alone a football club. As I say, that's just off the top of my head. Give me a bit longer and I'm sure there's more. 

[Davefevs]

10 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The Cook bit is a new and interesting one, our model at that time in effect put him off @Davefevs ?

Is a shame, it would have been interesting to see what he might have done injuries permitting with some of our players but who knows if the injury crisis would have hit no matter what as by January, February it was truly unprecedented.

Probably the muppets in charge.

See Kids response though.

1 hour ago, Riaz said:

A myth. He was backed, but he went for unrealistic targets, such as dwight gayle.

Another myth. Plenty of player sales and he was usually spending money to replace player. And we were moving up the table, where yes, the wage bill did go up, but so did we up the table. Which was never going happen under cotts

After his initial targets were undermined by Pelling.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Cook wasn't hired due to his addiction issues, which is why he is now managing in the National League, and not where he should be; L1/Championship. 

Though also true he/his agent weren't keen on the move either.

Basically it went nowhere. 

Ta Kid.

[Frenchay Red]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

After his initial targets were undermined by Pelling.

Which included provisional deals agreed for Maguire and Grey.

Gayle was never part of the early recruitment targets and was more paper talk than reality.

[ExiledAjax]

23 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Off the top of my head - To have a better plan than the current owner, who's had over 20 years to think of a winning one. To have a better understanding of what it takes to run a football club. To be a better communicator. Not to make appointments based on nepotism or favouritism. Not to make pronouncements that go "it's my club". To have a better antenna for bullshitters and snake oil salesmen. To understand that, appointing people just because they're easy to get on with, is not the basis on which to run any business let alone a football club. As I say, that's just off the top of my head. Give me a bit longer and I'm sure there's more. 

A little bit of devil's advocate here.

I'm struggling to think of a Championship team - not a yo-yo PL/EFL team - a proper Championship team like us who have had relatively quick success following a change of owner.

All the clubs that people talk about emulating - Brighton, Brentford, Luton, Millwall, even clubs like Boro and Sheff Utd - have actually had long lasting stable ownership over the past decade or so.

Bloom bought Brighton in 2009, and they reached the PL 8 years later. Benham took full control of Brentford in 2012, and nine years later they were promoted to the PL. Luton have had the same owner for a long time as well. Millwall until recent tragic circumstances likewise. Boro famously have Gibson in place for almost as long as we've had SL.

On the other side of the coin...where's the team that changed owner whilst in the Championship and then, within a few seasons, achieved promotion...I cannot think of one off the top of my head.

This isn't an attempt to dismiss your criticisms, many of which I wholeheartedly agree with. What it is trying to do is say: hang on, if it's promotion we really care about, maybe we have to look past all those failings and consider the wider picture. 

If we want to emulate the success of other teams then we need to look at common factors. One common factor is at least 5-10 years worth of stable ownership. We already have that.

Edited August 22, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[exAtyeoMax]

14 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

A little bit of devil's advocate here.

I'm struggling to think of a Championship team - not a yo-yo PL/EFL team - a proper Championship team like us who have had relatively quick success following a change of owner.

All the clubs that people talk about emulating - Brighton, Brentford, Luton, Millwall, even clubs like Boro and Sheff Utd - have actually had long lasting stable ownership over the past decade or so.

Bloom bought Brighton in 2009, and they reached the PL 8 years later. Benham took full control of Brentford in 2012, and nine years later they were promoted to the PL. Luton have had the same owner for a long time as well. Millwall until recent tragic circumstances likewise. Boro famously have Gibson in place for almost as long as we've had SL.

On the other side of the coin...where's the team that changed owner whilst in the Championship and then, within a few seasons, achieved promotion...I cannot think of one off the top of my head.

This isn't an attempt to dismiss your criticisms, many of which I wholeheartedly agree with. What it is trying to do is say: hang on, if it's promotion we really care about, maybe we have to look past all those failings and consider the wider picture. 

If we want to emulate the success of other teams then we need to look at common factors. One common factor is at least 5-10 years worth of stable ownership. We already have that.

yes but their stable owner might be better…

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

A little bit of devil's advocate here.

I'm struggling to think of a Championship team - not a yo-yo PL/EFL team - a proper Championship team like us who have had relatively quick success following a change of owner.

All the clubs that people talk about emulating - Brighton, Brentford, Luton, Millwall, even clubs like Boro and Sheff Utd - have actually had long lasting stable ownership over the past decade or so.

Bloom bought Brighton in 2009, and they reached the PL 8 years later. Benham took full control of Brentford in 2012, and nine years later they were promoted to the PL. Luton have had the same owner for a long time as well. Millwall until recent tragic circumstances likewise. Boro famously have Gibson in place for almost as long as we've had SL.

On the other side of the coin...where's the team that changed owner whilst in the Championship and then, within a few seasons, achieved promotion...I cannot think of one off the top of my head.

This isn't an attempt to dismiss your criticisms, many of which I wholeheartedly agree with. What it is trying to do is say: hang on, if it's promotion we really care about, maybe we have to look past all those failings and consider the wider picture. 

If we want to emulate the success of other teams then we need to look at common factors. One common factor is at least 5-10 years worth of stable ownership. We already have that.

Stoke have had Coates for many years too albeit in two spells. Think Gibson took over Middlesbrough sometime in the 1980s?