Separating the truth from fiction (I’m encouraged)

[sh1t_ref_again]

The only thing we can all agree on is we don't know why Nige was really sacked, or at least not the full picture.

The reality of it is, it may be a number of reasons combined, but would guess the fall out has been ongoing for some time, hence the nest egg and Nige not being given funds.

Perhaps if we knew, we might even agree with it, despite how much we all liked Nige, but it's obvious the board can not give the full story and have handled the PR badly.

Nige moved the club forward and beyond its troubles of the over spend from LJ and MA. Now we need to give LM time, although I was underwhelmed by the appointment, I am coming around and can see progress  even if not the results 

[petehinton]

19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s why I’m sitting in my hands until the window is over.

My nagging concern is around the January window - I can’t work out what we need position wise, especially if we keep changing formations.…and you know I’m not big in formations anyway.  But it will influence who we might be interested in and how we evaluate whether they fit.

4213, 343, 3421….

That’s way too easy to throw out there.  You’ve still got to go out and beat them.

& we didn’t do too badly when they brought all the ‘big guns’ on after HT

[Port Said Red]

15 minutes ago, Galley is our king said:

As supporters we should be holding those who took the decision to sack Pearson by lying to book.

Just rolling over and having ones tummy tickled is bollocks!

The old east end would have let em know for sure.

Proven liars who do not deserve support from us and will not get another penny from me. 62 years and DONE...

So you put up with shysters like Leslie Kew who never put a penny of his own money into the club, but you withdraw support from someone who has put in millions over the years to keep the club afloat, just because they sacked a manager you liked? 

Anyway, if you are "done" why are you here? 

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Did JL say that this is a top 6 squad, this season?

That’s a genuine, not rhetorical, question! I don’t claim to have watched or read every interview with him - there’s a limit . But I wasn’t aware he’d said anything that specific. 

No, he insinuated it, as did Tins.

The CEO, Gavin Marshall, said promotion was the aim this season.

@ExiledAjax put together a thread of the exact quotes.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, GrahamC said:

So how is Cifuentes able to turn it around far quicker?

Their squad is definitely worse than ours & was playing prehistoric football under Ainsworth..

We on the other hand are back to the rinse and repeat of 3 transfer windows..

Chair and Willock are very good players. Seen an argument that is QPR returning to their normal style.

I agree with your 2nd paragraph though, we can't go back to stalling, rebuilding all that crap.

[italian dave]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, he insinuated it, as did Tins.

The CEO, Gavin Marshall, said promotion was the aim this season.

@ExiledAjax put together a thread of the exact quotes.

 

Mmmmm….not convinced, Dave.

JL and BT made fairly bland, carefully crafted (likely not by them!) corporate-speak statements that just avoided touching on the likely real reasons. But I’ve seen nothing that either says or implies anything as specific as top 6 this season.

I’ve also seen that thread. And, with respect to Jerseybean, it really isn’t a “thread of exact quotes”. It’s a thread of OTIBers views and interpretations, and links to a couple of those interviews that I’ve referred to above.

I accept the point about Marshall - but what does he know about football?!  (and my post was in response to a post that was specifically about JL) 

[Davefevs]

.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Davefevs

[tin]

Were led to believe we should be competing at the “top end” of this division this season, that we have “a top-10 budget” and that this “is the best squad in my [JL’s] time here”. So why are we going backwards? We must be beating the likes of Huddersfield, Norwich and QPR. 

It takes more than possession stats to impress me and Manning hasn’t done anything to win me over yet. I hope he does, but he hasn’t yet.

We were nine points above the bottom three at the start of play today, now it’s seven. The bottom line is we must be doing better to match the chairman’s target.

 

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, tin said:

Were led to believe we should be competing at the “top end” of this division this season, that we have “a top-10 budget” and that this “is the best squad in my [JL’s] time here”. So why are we going backwards? We must be beating the likes of Huddersfield, Norwich and QPR. 

It takes more than possession stats to impress me and Manning hasn’t done anything to win me over yet. I hope he does, but he hasn’t yet.

We were nine points above the bottom three at the start of play today, now it’s seven. The bottom line is we must be doing better to match the chairman’s target.

 

You want us to beat all three of those teams? Have you ever met the championship! It doesn’t really work like that!

[Jose]

1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

You want us to beat all three of those teams? Have you ever met the championship! It doesn’t really work like that!

I’d hope we’d beat one of them……….

[Sheltons Army]

27 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

So you put up with shysters like Leslie Kew who never put a penny of his own money into the club, but you withdraw support from someone who has put in millions over the years to keep the club afloat, just because they sacked a manager you liked? 

Anyway, if you are "done" why are you here? 

As a supporter of many decades , why shouldn’t he be

 

You've come across as an opiniated Club spokesman a number of times , particularly recently

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Sheltons Army

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, tin said:

Were led to believe we should be competing at the “top end” of this division this season, that we have “a top-10 budget” and that this “is the best squad in my [JL’s] time here”. So why are we going backwards? We must be beating the likes of Huddersfield, Norwich and QPR. 

It takes more than possession stats to impress me and Manning hasn’t done anything to win me over yet. I hope he does, but he hasn’t yet.

We were nine points above the bottom three at the start of play today, now it’s seven. The bottom line is we must be doing better to match the chairman’s target.

 

7 from those 3 last year, and that could've been acceptable.

2 however isn't.

[italian dave]

19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, read Exiled Ajax’s posts, they contain the videos and the exact quotes.

They’re the same interviews as Jerseybean posted links to in the original post though….nothing new? Yes, I’ve listened to them - and again this evening (and that’s enough!!).

Still doesn’t change my view that they are carefully avoiding straying into specific ‘top 6 this season’ objectives/commitments. In fact, they deliberately avoid that when it’s suggested to them.

“Top end”? What does that mean? 11th up? “Challenging toward”? Even more vague!

We both agree that there were other reasons they don’t want to tell us about. And this is the bluff that goes along with trying to pretend it was all about football. I’m not defending that, but I do question when it’s asserted as a fact that JL explicitly stated top 6 this season. And I just don’t see the point of beating ourselves, our players and our manager up over an unrealistic target.

Edited December 9, 2023 by italian dave

[Mr Popodopolous]

Think people going on about NP and pragmatism are doing him a bit of a disservice. Sure he was at times and could be but there were some quite fast starts, some similar possession and shot dominant performances.

Sure he was more varied than Manning but when injuries bit he had to fall back on certain areas to an extent but not entirely.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

You need to stop telling me what to do. It's getting weird now. 

Yeah, one thing that does irk me is fans on a forum, columnists or Podcasts trying to set the narrative well even that is okay but tell people the narrative they should view.

Withers columnn, the Podcast etc.

[SydneyCity]

To me, this is SOD all over again with one key difference - personality.

Manning gives text book answers, and everyone thinks he’s a football genius. SOD was all over the place and everyone thought he was mad… but they’re both saying and delivering the same thing.

Hindsight has been kind to SOD. He started to sort out a serious mess and lay the foundations of our high achieving academy. Manning has walked into some very solid foundations so has no excuses.

I’m not writing him off yet but I don’t have high hopes.

[TomThumb84]

6 hours ago, Harry said:

I’m rather encouraged by what I’ve seen so far with Manning. I know many won’t agree but that’s how I feel. 
 

I am keen to separate the performances under Manning from the ridiculous decisions and comments from Jon, Brian & Gavin. 
 

The reasons for sacking Pearson were, as we all know, spurious. 
Their comments about top 6, top end, best squad etc etc were again, spurious. 
 

I’ve said clearly on threads at that time that I will very much be judging the hierarchy on those comments and expectations. 
 

However, I am not judging Manning on those same comments and expectations. I will judge Manning on what I see on the field. 
 

In my opinion, the squad which Pearson had was a squad which I thought would be about 10th-15th, and would be one where we’d see less of the ball and be rather stodgy. A counterattack team which might get a few results against the grain but generally have less of the play but get enough results for mid table. 
I wasn’t expecting any more than that. 
 

With Manning, my expectations aren’t changing. I still think this is a mid table squad. 
However, I am really encouraged (and frankly amazed) that he’s got this team playing dominant possession football and having twice as many chances as the opposition. 
I actually really like how we’ve played so far. Yes, the results haven’t been there but I’ve enjoyed seeing a City team having 60%+ possession, looking like the better football team, being creative up front and making plenty of decent chances. I also liked today the battling qualities we showed - the 2nd half conditions were horrendous and we had to scrap for loose balls and aerials and we won more than our fair share - for once it seemed like the 2nd balls and ricochets mostly went our way, when can we ever say that as a City fan! Thats not luck. Its effort. 
 

Yes, we could easily have won today. We could easily have won v Norwich. We could have got a point at Southampton. We didn’t. And that will rightly be questioned, but the performances, for me, have been encouraging. 
 

Whatever Lansdown and Tinnion said, I will judge them at the end of the season. Failure is on their heads. 
For Manning, I’m positively encouraged by how he’s managing to get this team playing - I like what I’ve seen so far. I don’t think we’re too far off. Most of the goals against haven’t been anything to do with system, shape, management etc they’ve mostly been basic individual errors. 
Yes, those things will happen (they happened under Nige too). But overall I’m actually quite happy so far. 

Basically as you were then apart from more ball and less conversion.

So new players needed.

Same as the difference Nige needed.

Deja vu all over again.

 

[The Nest Egg]

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Missed Plymouth then?

That was only two months previous, not “years”.

I was visiting my brother in France that week, had a great time watching it on TV together in our old City shirts.

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by The Nest Egg

[TV Tom]

9 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Nige is on record as saying him and JL got on fine, I think the problems lay elsewhere. 

Plymouth reserves. Let's be honest we were very lucky Schumacher "rested" their best players. He won't be doing that again in a hurry. 

I think he might of did it yesterday at Leicester, he made 6 changes

[TV Tom]

7 hours ago, SydneyCity said:

To me, this is SOD all over again with one key difference - personality.

Manning gives text book answers, and everyone thinks he’s a football genius. SOD was all over the place and everyone thought he was mad… but they’re both saying and delivering the same thing.

Hindsight has been kind to SOD. He started to sort out a serious mess and lay the foundations of our high achieving academy. Manning has walked into some very solid foundations so has no excuses.

I’m not writing him off yet but I don’t have high hopes.

I think that's great that you're not writing him off after five games

[tin]

8 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

You want us to beat all three of those teams? Have you ever met the championship! It doesn’t really work like that!

I want us to beat every team, obviously, but this is about what the board have said and how we are measuring up against that.

I think it’s not unrealistic to expect a return of 5+ points from those games and the reality is we’ve got 2 points which isn’t good enough IMO. 

[TV Tom]

8 hours ago, Jose said:

I’d hope we’d beat one of them……….

We did beat Middlesbrough though who just happened to beat run-away leaders Leicester, all this is pointless

[TV Tom]

8 hours ago, tin said:

Were led to believe we should be competing at the “top end” of this division this season, that we have “a top-10 budget” and that this “is the best squad in my [JL’s] time here”. So why are we going backwards? We must be beating the likes of Huddersfield, Norwich and QPR. 

It takes more than possession stats to impress me and Manning hasn’t done anything to win me over yet. I hope he does, but he hasn’t yet.

We were nine points above the bottom three at the start of play today, now it’s seven. The bottom line is we must be doing better to match the chairman’s target.

 

It's only 7 points because QPR have won their last three games, other teams in this division are allowed to win games you know

[ExiledAjax]

8 hours ago, italian dave said:

They’re the same interviews as Jerseybean posted links to in the original post though….nothing new? Yes, I’ve listened to them - and again this evening (and that’s enough!!).

Still doesn’t change my view that they are carefully avoiding straying into specific ‘top 6 this season’ objectives/commitments. In fact, they deliberately avoid that when it’s suggested to them.

“Top end”? What does that mean? 11th up? “Challenging toward”? Even more vague!

We both agree that there were other reasons they don’t want to tell us about. And this is the bluff that goes along with trying to pretend it was all about football. I’m not defending that, but I do question when it’s asserted as a fact that JL explicitly stated top 6 this season. And I just don’t see the point of beating ourselves, our players and our manager up over an unrealistic target.

Without repeating long posts - I think we had this conversation already on another thread.

You are correct that none of JL, BT or GM ever used the EXACT words "top 6" during the interviews that followed Pearson's sacking.

The closest we got was GM's assertion that promotion was the aim this season. To get promoted you HAVE to finish in the top 6. Ergo that is a statement of equivalence to saying "a top 6 season is the aim this season".

That's not my opinion. That's someone's actual words given their true implicit meaning. It has to be seen as that.

Fans/people have then used "top 6" to abbreviate all of the context, implication, and assumption into a quickly typable phrase. 

I think it is important to remember that no one ever said those exact words, but equally we shouldn't pretend that they were saying "11th place was out target".

[transfer reader]

13 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

Just a point , they didn't lie to get rid of Pearson they didn't need to. They could just sack him and not give a reason.
The problem was they tried to rewrite history, use smoke and mirrors to cover up the real reasons. Which really was stupid as a proper , genuine explanation would have been accepted far more readily.

Excuse me for quoting you to make a point KITR.

If they had used this as an explanation , just say we don't feel the situation is working with Pearson's health or whatever. Then there wouldn't have been such bad feeling from fans IMO.

 

13 hours ago, BCFC Rich said:

I think they should have just said it wasn't working, I'm pretty sure they can't use his health as a reason without opening themselves up to legal issues. 

I also don't agree that the forum would have been accepting of NP being sacked with health issues given as the reason.

If it was "NP left by mutual consent" type thing, maybe. But then if NP wasn't agreeing to it then it's a sacking, and if they call it one when it's the other that's another issue.

 

[Sir Geoff]

9 hours ago, italian dave said:

Mmmmm….not convinced, Dave.

JL and BT made fairly bland, carefully crafted (likely not by them!) corporate-speak statements that just avoided touching on the likely real reasons. But I’ve seen nothing that either says or implies anything as specific as top 6 this season.

I’ve also seen that thread. And, with respect to Jerseybean, it really isn’t a “thread of exact quotes”. It’s a thread of OTIBers views and interpretations, and links to a couple of those interviews that I’ve referred to above.

I accept the point about Marshall - but what does he know about football?!  (and my post was in response to a post that was specifically about JL) 

We were 8th during the week they decided to sack Pearson, if we lost at Cardiff. They then said we have a top 10 budget and should be competing at the top end of the division. People rightly assumed they didn't mean 7th, so 6th upwards is the obvious conclusion.

[tin]

1 hour ago, TV Tom said:

It's only 7 points because QPR have won their last three games, other teams in this division are allowed to win games you know

No shit, Sherlock! 

[Bristol Oil Services]

9 hours ago, italian dave said:

They’re the same interviews as Jerseybean posted links to in the original post though….nothing new? Yes, I’ve listened to them - and again this evening (and that’s enough!!).

Still doesn’t change my view that they are carefully avoiding straying into specific ‘top 6 this season’ objectives/commitments. In fact, they deliberately avoid that when it’s suggested to them.

“Top end”? What does that mean? 11th up? “Challenging toward”? Even more vague!

We both agree that there were other reasons they don’t want to tell us about. And this is the bluff that goes along with trying to pretend it was all about football. I’m not defending that, but I do question when it’s asserted as a fact that JL explicitly stated top 6 this season. And I just don’t see the point of beating ourselves, our players and our manager up over an unrealistic target.

"Top end" isn't 11th, that's "top half."

So, "top" is 1 - 12 and "end" in football terms, is 1 - 6.

[italian dave]

@ExiledAjax @Sir Geoff @Bristol Oil Services

I’m not suggesting that they meant 7th, or 11th any more than 6th.

Thats exactly my point. “Top end” doesn’t really mean anything specific beyond top half. It’s bluff. Which is why they used it. If they’d wanted to say ‘top 6’ then that’s what they’d have said - people understand that. 

You can put different interpretations on it if you want, but that’s all they are. 

And even then the carefully crafted public statements noticeably don’t mention anything about ‘this season’.

It gets harder for people to maintain that deliberately evasive line under scrutiny (interviews) which is why they start to bluff.

I take your point EA about Marshall: I’ve acknowledged that elsewhere. As you say, yes we have had this discussion previously! And I’m not going to sit through those interviews again for a third time!

As I’ve said, I’m not trying to defend either BT or JL. I think all three of you feel that there was much more we’re not being told, and that a degree of honesty would have been better. And I’m with you on that.

So by all means beat the leadership up about being evasive, about bluffing, about being unclear what the real reasons were. But let’s not beat ourselves, the players and the manager up with unrealistic expectations about things that weren’t actually said.

And - what started this revisit of the subject - put that “top 6 this season” statement into quotation marks and attribute to it to JL. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by italian dave

[spudski]

12 minutes ago, italian dave said:

@ExiledAjax @Sir Geoff @Bristol Oil Services

I’m not suggesting that they meant 7th, or 11th any more than 6th.

Thats exactly my point. “Top end” doesn’t really mean anything specific beyond top half. It’s bluff. Which is why they used it. If they’d wanted to say ‘top 6’ then that’s what they’d have said - people understand that. 

You can put different interpretations on it if you want, but that’s all they are. 

And even then the carefully crafted public statements noticeably don’t mention anything about ‘this season’.

It gets harder for people to maintain that deliberately evasive line under scrutiny (interviews) which is why they start to bluff.

I take your point EA about Marshall: I’ve acknowledged that elsewhere. As you say, yes we have had this discussion previously! And I’m not going to sit through those interviews again for a third time!

As I’ve said, I’m not trying to defend either BT or JL. I think all three of you feel that there was much more we’re not being told, and that a degree of honesty would have been better. And I’m with you on that.

So by all means beat the leadership up about being evasive, about bluffing, about being unclear what the real reasons were. But let’s not beat ourselves, the players and the manager up with unrealistic expectations about things that weren’t actually said.

And - what started this revisit of the subject - put that “top 6 this season” statement into quotation marks and attribute to it to JL. 

Morning Dave...When the board mention top half and looking to get promotion, then you would put two and two together that they mean top 6, as that's the only way of achieving it. 

Then the mention of Luton, with a lesser squad. 

It's my belief that the board in making those implications, think our squad is strong enough for top 6, otherwise they wouldn't make those observations and say such things. 

It's ridiculous to put pressure on managers to achieve that and say it publicly.