IAmNick Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, BTRFTG said: I think you'll find the main justification for 'Monarchy' these past 3 centuries is it appears to deliver constitutional and political stability it, after all, meaning 'the rule of the many by the one for the purpose of good'. Look at the remaining 46 monarchies around the globe and they tend to be decent, peaceful and prosperous places to reside. When monarchies fall they're invariably replaced by President Republics or Confederations. A quick scan of the major Presidencies of late doesn't exactly promote the concept: Trump , Biden, Putin, Xi, Erdogan, Bolsanaro, Kim Jong-un, Salih, al-Assad, Maduro. Add in just about any African nation, ex-Soviet state and central American dictatorship, consider security, conflict, economic stability and personal liberty and monarchy wins out by a mile. It's a well written post (which is why I suspect so many liked it) but I almost entirely disagree. Correlation does not equal causation. Do you have any examples from this past 50-100 years or so, let's say, of our monarchy delivering constitutional or political stability? We don't seem very constitutionally or politically stable currently. This is a genuine question by the way. What impact do you think they have had on our security, conflicts, economic stability, or personal liberty in recent history? I can think of large impacts on all of them from illegal wars we've entered, to recessions, and current plans to leave the court of European Court of Human Rights. If they haven't had any impact on events such as these, then what are they impacting exactly? If we have a recent prime minister who has broken the law while in office and they do nothing, for example, then how are they increasing any of the aspects you mention above? Oh, and half of the African states (and the others too!) you probably mean were/are in turmoil in part due to OUR influence while a monarchy in their recent history. It's an utterly laughable argument. We subjugate a nation under imperialist ambitions, screw it up beyond belief, they kick us out, for you to then point at them and go "Ah, no monarchy eh! No wonder you're in a mess!" 13 hours ago, BTRFTG said: That's not to say the present form of the UK Royal Family should remain, rather their very function within the constitution should be preserved and for good reason, it provides an essential buffer to political extremism and stasis. As I mentioned elsewhere, if folks bothered to review the Royals funding position rather than fixate on the Privy Purse, as anti-monarchists so love to do, they'll see The Exchequer receives far, far more in revenue from them than is paid back and that's before any 'benefit' to UKPLC's economy is considered. Are you including their wealth of almost £30 billion in this, or is it just a simple money in / out? How about how they historically earnt the majority of that on the backs of incredible suffering of normal people like you and I around the world for many years, should that factor in or just be forgotten? 55 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said: This is the key for me. Wonderfully worded arguments by the way. I've been wanting to write similar but couldn't put it so succinctly. Reform the monarchy and HoL. Yes. Abolish and replace it? Shortsighted in my opinion. Watch the proclamation today and you see that it's a deal. The monarch rules, but they also serve, the privy council support, but they also hold the monarch to account. There is balance. Genuine question - can you give any examples of the monarch being held to account by the privy council recently? Edited September 10, 2022 by IAmNick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 31 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: Just because the bold statement may be the most arseholish thing I’ve seen on here… @Sheltons Army 3935 posts, 6676 reputation = 1.7 reactions per post @pillred 5591 posts, 3548 reputation = 0.6 reactions per post So, even allowing for some of those reactions being negative, I think not only is that statement not the reason this forum exists, but also totally incorrect. These goals to posts.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dolman Pragmatist Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 1 hour ago, BTRFTG said: You make a number of points, as have others, that merely suggest you've a poor understanding of how the UK is governed, its very Constitution, that being the subject of my post. As was attested today, Parliament serves the Monarch yet the Monarch consents to obey the will of the people as reflected through members elected. The Monarch inherits great wealth, but offers it all back to Parliament in return for sufficient funds to discharge the Monarch's state functions. In the UK, at National (Parliamentary) election, one doesn't vote for a party, one elects an individual to represent one in a first past the post ballot. The individual elected owes no allegiance to any party nor the policies they promote, as evidenced by MPs being able to vote against party whips to which they might profess allegiance or by them 'crossing the floor' as they see fit. They do not have to adhere to the wishes of their constituents, once elected they've free reign to do as they wish. The largest group of like-minded MPs (usually a political party) is invited by the Monarch to form a Government. Should the largest group be a political party its for its membership to decide who both their leader and PM should be (usually the same but it doesn't have to be.) Parties have their internal procudeures as to how this is discharged. In the case of political manifestos there's no obligation on that elected to Government to fulfill any if its promises. For various reasons most commitments are never delivered. In which case the majority of your second paragraph is nugatory. Fair to criticize if you think the system flawed (as do I,) but you snipe and carp as though there's been connivance and wrong-doing this week when all you describe is how the system is prescribed to work. The opening to your second paragraph hasn't been 'cherry-picked' and is a pragmatic demonstration as to why tinkering with the UK's model constitution isn't necessarily a good thing, even should some consider wholly elected bodies to be in some way 'more' democratic (sic). If you've ever spent time in Parliament you quickly realise having a second, non-elected chamber isn't such a bad thing. As with the Monarch, the elected peoples will must always triumph, but what the non-elected body is able to do is to consider and influence legislation it is tasked to consider, importantly not always from a politically partizan angle. Contrast nations who've tinkered our constitution, USA is a fine example. There you've 3 wholly elected functions (Executive, Senate and House,) all on different election cycles and split proportion of election, and they've ended up with stasis. Usually the President, laughably called the most powerful person in the world but who in reality isn't even the most powerful person in Washington, ends up delivering little (or what gets delivered is instantly annulled within a couple of years.) As there, a good comparison here are National and Local elections where historically the party in Government gets thrashed by its opposition come Local elections. All that does is make delivering benefits of policy to the people more difficult and antagonistic, Local power thwarting National policy whether or not its for the best. Tit for tat politics. Without question there is a signal difference between the continuity of Monarchy, where the incumbent is a function not an individual (hence the affirmations of allegiance required today.) Matters not palaces, jewels and crowns, they're functions of state, not for sale. They exist on behalf of us subjects. For that reason it matters little a Monarch is for life (or until they abdicate,) unlike many Republics where Presidents, once elected, have enacted legislation that may never see them (in some cases their chosen successors,) removed from office. Ditto wealth. What was ours through ERII becomes ours through CRIII. Contrast the likes of Putin. A President paid around $130k per annum who in the past decade has amassed a personal wealth in excess of $200bn, no need to declare or explain, no questions asked (unless one is unafraid of poisons and falls from great height.) Our Constitution is far from perfect, but on balance its hard to think how immediately it might signally be improved given the present poverty of political understanding and debate in our nations. ‘Attested’, ‘nugatory’, ‘signally’? Speak proper! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Bristol Rob said: These goals to posts.... Totally agree which is why I pointed it out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colombo Robin Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 5 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: Okay… You’ve received 581 laugh reactions in 5591 posts, so a tittering average of 0.1 laughs per post He’s received 1372 laugh reactions in 3935 posts, so a roaring average of 0.3 laughs per post. You said, and I quote, “I would be willing to bet my stats on replies and reactions are better than yours pro rata”. They’re not. Either on the collective or on your revised laugh metric. As to what it’s got to do with me? Frankly nothing. But I hate people making a statement on an absolute basis when it can be proven as false. All I’m doing is fact checking. If you don’t like that, don’t make claims that can be checked. I bet my emoji stats are way better than yours, Silvio. In the absence of football can we set up an emoji stats league 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Out of his pie crust Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 1 hour ago, BTRFTG said: You make a number of points, as have others, that merely suggest you've a poor understanding of how the UK is governed, its very Constitution, that being the subject of my post. As was attested today, Parliament serves the Monarch yet the Monarch consents to obey the will of the people as reflected through members elected. The Monarch inherits great wealth, but offers it all back to Parliament in return for sufficient funds to discharge the Monarch's state functions. In the UK, at National (Parliamentary) election, one doesn't vote for a party, one elects an individual to represent one in a first past the post ballot. The individual elected owes no allegiance to any party nor the policies they promote, as evidenced by MPs being able to vote against party whips to which they might profess allegiance or by them 'crossing the floor' as they see fit. They do not have to adhere to the wishes of their constituents, once elected they've free reign to do as they wish. The largest group of like-minded MPs (usually a political party) is invited by the Monarch to form a Government. Should the largest group be a political party its for its membership to decide who both their leader and PM should be (usually the same but it doesn't have to be.) Parties have their internal procudeures as to how this is discharged. In the case of political manifestos there's no obligation on that elected to Government to fulfill any if its promises. For various reasons most commitments are never delivered. In which case the majority of your second paragraph is nugatory. Fair to criticize if you think the system flawed (as do I,) but you snipe and carp as though there's been connivance and wrong-doing this week when all you describe is how the system is prescribed to work. The opening to your second paragraph hasn't been 'cherry-picked' and is a pragmatic demonstration as to why tinkering with the UK's model constitution isn't necessarily a good thing, even should some consider wholly elected bodies to be in some way 'more' democratic (sic). If you've ever spent time in Parliament you quickly realise having a second, non-elected chamber isn't such a bad thing. As with the Monarch, the elected peoples will must always triumph, but what the non-elected body is able to do is to consider and influence legislation it is tasked to consider, importantly not always from a politically partizan angle. Contrast nations who've tinkered our constitution, USA is a fine example. There you've 3 wholly elected functions (Executive, Senate and House,) all on different election cycles and split proportion of election, and they've ended up with stasis. Usually the President, laughably called the most powerful person in the world but who in reality isn't even the most powerful person in Washington, ends up delivering little (or what gets delivered is instantly annulled within a couple of years.) As there, a good comparison here are National and Local elections where historically the party in Government gets thrashed by its opposition come Local elections. All that does is make delivering benefits of policy to the people more difficult and antagonistic, Local power thwarting National policy whether or not its for the best. Tit for tat politics. Without question there is a signal difference between the continuity of Monarchy, where the incumbent is a function not an individual (hence the affirmations of allegiance required today.) Matters not palaces, jewels and crowns, they're functions of state, not for sale. They exist on behalf of us subjects. For that reason it matters little a Monarch is for life (or until they abdicate,) unlike many Republics where Presidents, once elected, have enacted legislation that may never see them (in some cases their chosen successors,) removed from office. Ditto wealth. What was ours through ERII becomes ours through CRIII. Contrast the likes of Putin. A President paid around $130k per annum who in the past decade has amassed a personal wealth in excess of $200bn, no need to declare or explain, no questions asked (unless one is unafraid of poisons and falls from great height.) Our Constitution is far from perfect, but on balance its hard to think how immediately it might signally be improved given the present poverty of political understanding and debate in our nations. B+ , student is showing improvement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturny Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 (edited) Maybe just me but when I see people mentioning forum reputation on here it really makes me cringe Edited September 10, 2022 by Sturny 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamdon Mart Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 I for one thank you for bringing it up. I've discovered I've had 67 laugh reactions for 134 posts, a nice precise 0.5 laughs per posts & I've also had 264 reactions from those posts which weighs in at a very healthy 1.97 reactions per post. Chuffed with those figures to be honest. * * (Of course, now I've created this post, my figures are all skew wiff again.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 Just now, Colombo Robin said: I bet my emoji stats are way better than yours, Silvio. In the absence of football can we set up an emoji stats league The expected stats to post is something @Davefevs can build a bit of BI and Excel around. Imagine the heat map of Dolman PA vs Food Vouchers coupled with a BBC Radio Bristol phone in..... Fevs, I expect the data model within 20 minutes! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 6 minutes ago, Sturny said: Maybe just me but when I see people mentioning forum reputation on here it really makes me cringe I only liked this to give you more because I felt sorry for you 7 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said: The expected stats to post is something @Davefevs can build a bit of BI and Excel around. Imagine the heat map of Dolman PA vs Food Vouchers coupled with a BBC Radio Bristol phone in..... Fevs, I expect the data model within 20 minutes! Just wait until people discover the leaderboard: https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topmembers/ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 2 hours ago, IAmNick said: In the garden and can hear GSTQ ringing out from Ashton gate. What a shame it wasn't coming from city fans! GSTK.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturny Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 1 minute ago, IAmNick said: I only liked this to give you more because I felt sorry for you 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, The Bard said: GSTK.. It sounded like queen, I presumed as some kind of tribute, but I live getting on for a km away so it wasn't easy to hear the individual words! 1 minute ago, Sturny said: I recommend posting shitty goal videos to farm reputation Edited September 10, 2022 by IAmNick 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, IAmNick said: I only liked this to give you more because I felt sorry for you Just wait until people discover the leaderboard: https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topmembers/ Ooh! I'm on there! I must be VERY VERY special*. *'needs' at viewers discretion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stortz Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 1 hour ago, pillred said: My my feeling a little embarrassed are we? I would be willing to bet my stats on replies and reactions is far better than yours pro rata, never realised you analysed my posts in such great detail me I have better things to do. I just called you out for making a flippant remark and you don't like it well hard luck. Jesus Christ hahahaha, surely @Sheltons Army can never recover from this savage put down. Pro rata mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colombo Robin Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, IAmNick said: I only liked this to give you more because I felt sorry for you Just wait until people discover the leaderboard: https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topmembers/ Impressive stats, but you can tell @Davefevs if he's watching i'm still fighting for this emoji title and he's got to go to the politics forum and get something, and i'll tell you honestly, i will love it if i beat him, love it! Edited September 10, 2022 by Colombo Robin 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturny Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 Times were simpler with the eggplant emoji 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 8 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said: Ooh! I'm on there! I must be VERY VERY special*. *'needs' at viewers discretion. God save @Davefevs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Colombo Robin said: Impressive stats, but you can tell @Davefevs if he's watching i'm still fighting for this emoji title and he's go to go to the politics forum and get something, and i'll tell you honestly, i will love it if i beat him, love it! Away fixture in the politics forum is bloody tough to get a decent result in, if Dave can manage that he totally deserves the title tbh (yes I got the reference btw) Edited September 10, 2022 by IAmNick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenkibby. Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 10 minutes ago, IAmNick said: I only liked this to give you more because I felt sorry for you Just wait until people discover the leaderboard: https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topmembers/ Leader Board you say? Have avoided looking at the League Table for a year or two. Have started taking an interest these last couple of weeks. Norwich and Burnley away, Leader Board you say? Would it be mad if were still top six? I know this aint slagging off related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy1968 Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 23 minutes ago, IAmNick said: I only liked this to give you more because I felt sorry for you Just wait until people discover the leaderboard: https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topmembers/ @Davefevs, the Serena Williams of otib. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazred Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 I do think they've missed the mood here. I'm ok either way but football is well accustomed to paying respect as many sports are. I think a majority of football fans would of welcomed the opportunity. Wednesday, or the following Saturday it won't feel quite the same, but without a doubt, the utmost respect will be shown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillred Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Stortz said: Jesus Christ hahahaha, surely @Sheltons Army can never recover from this savage put down. Pro rata mind! Sheltons Army 10% of posts received a laugh, Pillred 11%. I rest my case, and that's NOT pro rata. I would rather be funny than anything else and my posts are mostly tongue in cheek and played for laughs and not any seriousness, but as someone who does genuinely try to be humorous I thought his attempt (comment) was not very funny and ill-judged and I stand by that opinion. Edited September 10, 2022 by pillred Spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 I wish there were emojis back in the day. My gold standard content of yesteryear would have raked them in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 31 minutes ago, IAmNick said: I only liked this to give you more because I felt sorry for you Just wait until people discover the leaderboard: https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topmembers/ Not based around reactions to posts so therefore just rewards those who spam the board like @Davefevs Although, IIRC, didn’t the last person to boast about his reputation get it reset. Hey, @Robbored 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinmans Love Child Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 3 hours ago, pillred said: If that was, I hope an attempt at humour I'm afraid it has spectacularly failed, and why you gave me a Hmm reaction is beyond me. I have a feeling a lot of people will agree it was in very poor taste. Wow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinmans Love Child Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 2 hours ago, Sheltons Army said: Embarrassed ? Not one jot , you keep wallowing As for ‘My stats on replies and reactions is better than yours pro data ‘ Wow.....just wow......... Whatever's important to you When does the Willy waving comp start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 59 minutes ago, IAmNick said: Do you have any examples from this past 50-100 years or so, let's say, of our monarchy delivering constitutional or political stability? The obvious example (and no it isn't myth as I've met some of those who were there at the time,) is the 74 coup against Wilson's Government. With the country in turmoil, bankrupt and with the serious concern of undue influence from a foreign state, a delegation of very senior military heads met with the late Queen Mother explaining they were, within hours, to seize power to save the country. Understanding the respect for the Constitution they knew the British public would never accept them, hence they wanted her as their figurehead to front the coup. Politely, over a drink, she informed them not to be so stupid, the British didn't do things that way and sent them on their heels sworn to say no more, she would sort matters. As soon as they had departed The Monarch summoned the PM, discussed how close he was to losing power and that he was under microscopic scrutiny. Wilson survived the crisis. If you don't like that example try the late Queen's and her father's speeches to the British Public at the outbreak of war. A war in which a signal proportion of the populous thought life under Hitler preferable to that they presently enjoyed. Bristol being one of the hotbeds of decent and where Churchill was as popular as a fart in a lift. Both examples remain subject to D Notices. In your response you wear your colours with pride, perhaps too much. The Monarch can influence but has no authority over Government, or rather if they exercise the right they technically hold they must abdicate. You appear concerned at the prospect of the UK finally dissociating itself from the ECHR. Why? UK citizens were never asked whether or not they wished to be governed by that body and had no absolutely authority as to how it is comprised, instituted or assured. A body, to remind, that other than in domestic matters fiscal and of national security had an ABSOLUTE right to veto ALL UK Parliamentary legislation, that to which us citizens hold Parliament to account. That's a pretty fundamental principle that folks have died over. Pseudo reparation talk, do me a favour. The Church, Monarchy, and powerful have subjugated folks since the year dot - all flavours, all ends of the political spectrum, employers and unions all. We could do as Pol Pot and proclaim year zero, but strange how that inexorably leads to famine, starvation and misery, as those under Mao, Stalin, Mugabe et al would have testified had they not died in the process. Life ain't fair. It ain't but it's what you make it, not what others should be obligated to make for you. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colombo Robin Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 1 minute ago, Tinmans Love Child said: When does the Willy waving comp start? @Davefevs prepare the excel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted September 10, 2022 Report Share Posted September 10, 2022 16 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: Not based around reactions to posts so therefore just rewards those who spam the board like @Davefevs Although, IIRC, didn’t the last person to boast about his reputation get it reset. Hey, @Robbored No idea Silvio………. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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