16 Points, 13 League Games

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, Harry said:

Not a huge difference in key player availability to be honest. 
In Nigel’s 7 home games, Conway missed 3, Wells missed 2. 
In Liam’s 6 home games, Wells missed 3, Sykes missed 2. 
 

That aside, they’ve fielded pretty much the same teams. 
Mehmeti instead of Yeboah is pretty much the only major difference in regular players. 

Key players is quite a broad definition.

From start of October to end of October encompassing 2 home games we had no specialist right back. McCrorie has only just come back into contention again.

Wasn't Vyner missing for x games- in addition to Atkinson and Naismith.

We also had Twine for this one, sample size- that bit more creative and goal potential.

We had players falling like nine pins in September to October. I suppose maybe Manning by League position at time we played has had tougher home games.

[Sheltons Army]

Some desperate clinging onto marginal stats in minimal amount of time period  , in an attempt to prove points , (or agendas) on here 

Edited January 22 by Sheltons Army

[Harry]

50 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Some desperate clinging onto marginal stats in minimal amount of time period  , in an attempt to prove points , (or agendas) on here 

Not really. 
The opening post claimed (correctly) that the overall points per game was slightly down. 
I’ve simply counter claimed (correctly) that the points per home game are up (along with shots and shots on target). 

I’ve said all along that home form has been crap for 5 years. So I for one am happy to see this improve so far. It may not stay that way, we may end up being crap again. But for now, there are 2 facts presented - both of which are correct and not “clinging” onto anything 

 

It’s very interesting though, that when someone says something that you disagree with, it’s an agenda. No. It’s just an alternative opinion (well, in this case, an alternative fact). No agenda’s. Home form has been improved. 

Edited January 22 by Harry

[Sheltons Army]

19 minutes ago, Harry said:

Not really. 
The opening post claimed (correctly) that the overall points per game was slightly down. 
I’ve simply counter claimed (correctly) that the points per home game are up (along with shots and shots on target). 

I’ve said all along that home form has been crap for 5 years. So I for one am happy to see this improve so far. It may not stay that way, we may end up being crap again. But for now, there are 2 facts presented - both of which are correct and not “clinging” onto anything 

 

It’s very interesting though, that when someone says something that you disagree with, it’s an agenda. No. It’s just an alternative opinion (well, in this case, an alternative fact). No agenda’s. Home form has been improved. 

id suggest to anyone quoting fractions of stats , over 6 or 7 games and coming to any form of finding , it’s pretty strange , especially for someone who has watched so much football

The claim that home form has improved , off the stats you quoted , I find quite strange , and the same for anyone quoting such fractions in reverse to claim the opposite. 

The desperation amongst fans to prove that Manning is ‘better’ than NP , or the reverse , is , in the extent it’s happening , well , bizarre 

We will see in good time what Liam Manning is or isn’t .

I won’t be comparing the outcome to NP’s tenure as quite simply we won’t be comparing apples with apples

For me LM will get judged on what LM produces , with any resources he has or gets , and not over a handful of games

 

I know you’ve made a point of stating numerous times how you ‘Liked Nige’ 

But sorry and for what it’s worth I don’t , and havn’t ever had any vibe , or have read anything , that suggests that to be the case , and if the stats you quoted had been fractionally positive in NPs favour I don’t think you would have done so.

Everyone free to have their opinion on NP , or whoever , but at least be honest about it

[Harry]

4 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

id suggest to anyone quoting fractions of stats , over 6 or 7 games and coming to any form of finding , it’s pretty strange , especially for someone who has watched so much football

The claim that home form has improved , off the stats you quoted , I find quite strange , and the same for anyone quoting such fractions in reverse to claim the opposite. 

The desperation amongst fans to prove that Manning is ‘better’ than NP , or the reverse , is , in the extent it’s happening , well , bizarre 

We will see in good time what Liam Manning is or isn’t .

I won’t be comparing the outcome to NP’s tenure as quite simply we won’t be comparing apples with apples

For me LM will get judged on what LM produces , with any resources he has or gets , and not over a handful of games

 

I know you’ve made a point of stating numerous times how you ‘Liked Nige’ 

But sorry and for what it’s worth I don’t , and havn’t ever had any vibe , or have read anything , that suggests that to be the case , and if the stats you quoted had been fractionally positive in NPs favour I don’t think you would have done so.

Everyone free to have their opinion on NP , or whoever , but at least be honest about it

For the record, I didn’t start the thread. But the thread is discussing the stats after 14 games. So I’ve just presented some stats just as others have done so, over 8 pages! But my stat (fact) is the one which is called out as an agenda. 

I actually agree with you that we can’t make any clear judgements based on such a small sample size. So why don’t you tell that to the previous 8 pages before I got involved? 
 

As for Nige. I’ve made my position very clear. I wasn’t overly enamoured on him when he first arrived. His character immediately grew on me and I liked him. I thought he had a tough job but also thought he could have done more with what he had. But mainly I was critical of home performances. 
His personality grew on me over his tenure and I would have been happy for him to have seen this season out, but I wasn’t as bothered as many others that his time was cut short. But I certainly have no ill will or agenda against him. 
Hope that clears things up for you. 

[FNQ]

43 minutes ago, Harry said:

Not really. 
The opening post claimed (correctly) that the overall points per game was slightly down. 
I’ve simply counter claimed (correctly) that the points per home game are up (along with shots and shots on target). 

I’ve said all along that home form has been crap for 5 years. So I for one am happy to see this improve so far. It may not stay that way, we may end up being crap again. But for now, there are 2 facts presented - both of which are correct and not “clinging” onto anything 

 

It’s very interesting though, that when someone says something that you disagree with, it’s an agenda. No. It’s just an alternative opinion (well, in this case, an alternative fact). No agenda’s. Home form has been improved. 

Our form’s too patchy to draw meaningful conclusions even considering the facts of Liam’s results to date.. In our recent home match on New Year’s Day against Millwall we only managed 5 shots with 1 on target.. can’t talk that up too much.

[FNQ]

1 minute ago, FNQ said:

Our form’s too patchy to draw meaningful conclusions even considering the facts of Liam’s results to date.. In our recent home match on New Year’s Day against Millwall we only managed 5 shots with 1 on target.. can’t talk that up too much.

Sorry Harry.. just seen your latest post.

[Harry]

1 minute ago, FNQ said:

Our form’s too patchy to draw meaningful conclusions even considering the facts of Liam’s results to date.. In our recent home match on New Year’s Day against Millwall we only managed 5 shots with 1 on target.. can’t talk that up too much.

I’m not talking it up. I’m just presenting a fact. As said earlier, this thread was started by someone quoting PPG after 14 games. I agree with you that it’s way to early to be forming opinions. 

[Sheltons Army]

32 minutes ago, Harry said:

For the record, I didn’t start the thread. But the thread is discussing the stats after 14 games. So I’ve just presented some stats just as others have done so, over 8 pages! But my stat (fact) is the one which is called out as an agenda. 

I actually agree with you that we can’t make any clear judgements based on such a small sample size. So why don’t you tell that to the previous 8 pages before I got involved? 
 

As for Nige. I’ve made my position very clear. I wasn’t overly enamoured on him when he first arrived. His character immediately grew on me and I liked him. I thought he had a tough job but also thought he could have done more with what he had. But mainly I was critical of home performances. 
His personality grew on me over his tenure and I would have been happy for him to have seen this season out, but I wasn’t as bothered as many others that his time was cut short. But I certainly have no ill will or agenda against him. 
Hope that clears things up for you. 
 

a fair q

Firstly I’ve put my thoughts on anyone using stats at this time is pointless  IMO

None of us have to look too far or look up any fractions of stats to make an initial view that LMs appointment has for most I would think pretty ‘neutral’ in various areas , with lots to unravel

You don’t strike me as someone that sees marginal fractions in stats as significant but primarily rely on what you are seeing , watching , over a gradual unraveling and period of games

Btw I didn’t reply/ quote in my first post about this to anyone , but , being honest , your repeated ‘ I liked Nige’ whilst constantly overtly promoting LM v NP I thought was disingenuous 

 

Edited January 22 by Sheltons Army

[Tomo]

8 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

id suggest to anyone quoting fractions of stats , over 6 or 7 games and coming to any form of finding , it’s pretty strange , especially for someone who has watched so much football

The claim that home form has improved , off the stats you quoted , I find quite strange , and the same for anyone quoting such fractions in reverse to claim the opposite. 

The desperation amongst fans to prove that Manning is ‘better’ than NP , or the reverse , is , in the extent it’s happening , well , bizarre 

We will see in good time what Liam Manning is or isn’t .

I won’t be comparing the outcome to NP’s tenure as quite simply we won’t be comparing apples with apples

For me LM will get judged on what LM produces , with any resources he has or gets , and not over a handful of games

 

I know you’ve made a point of stating numerous times how you ‘Liked Nige’ 

But sorry and for what it’s worth I don’t , and havn’t ever had any vibe , or have read anything , that suggests that to be the case , and if the stats you quoted had been fractionally positive in NPs favour I don’t think you would have done so.

Everyone free to have their opinion on NP , or whoever , but at least be honest about it

The original post was not an attempt to compare our old manager to the new one. It was more about the board stating that the 'current squad' are capable of being at the 'top end' of the table.

I have been told that Jon Lansdown never actually quoted the words 'top 6' when our old manager was sacked. However, if using 'top end' or words to that effect, most fans would assume that JL and BT thought that our current squad of players could reach the play offs this season. The team have not shown any sign of that over the last 13 games, in terms of points attained (yet).

The more you think about it, JL and BT had no other 'reasons they could quote publicly'. They just wanted to start again and get rid of Mr Pearson for their own reasons. 

Unfortunately, the message they delivered to the fanbase was a poor one and most will see them as accountable, if we fail to reach the 'top end' of the table this season (which seeks likely at this time).

Edited January 23 by Tomo

[Tomo]

8 hours ago, Harry said:

I’m not talking it up. I’m just presenting a fact. As said earlier, this thread was started by someone quoting PPG after 14 games. I agree with you that it’s way to early to be forming opinions. 

13

[RedRock]

I said on his appointment, that I will give him ‘til February before drawing any conclusions. Just hope though, that the Brighton vs Wolves possession bore fest with no quality in the final third isn’t where we are heading with our young, technically-minded coach. That match was abysmal. 
 

[KingHillRed]

How can anyone say we aren't a better side now under Manning?  Honestly if you can't see the improvements we've made as a team then I'm not sure where your head is at

Take aside the board bashing (which I completely understand) and compare things purely on a football basis and I would be absolutely amazed if, stats wise, we are not a much more defensively sound and threatening attacking side since LM has come in

Results will come if performances continue and to give the bloke a summary after 13 games is madness in my opinion - we just beat (and dominated really) a premier league side in the cup

I loved Nige, great guy, but I'm much more excited about the way we're going under Liam than I was under him for sure

[JoeAman08]

On 21/01/2024 at 15:52, Davefevs said:

Seriously???

Where did all our chances come from yesterday?  Set-pieces or press.

In recent games it’s been from transition. Not from build-up.

Thats a bad take Joe!

Twine had a great chance in open play. The goal was from pressing. We had chances from set pieces too. So still a threat on set pieces and better pressing and sharper passing in the final third. Idk how that is a bad take

[Tomo]

21 minutes ago, RedRock said:

I said on his appointment, that I will give him ‘til February before drawing any conclusions. Just hope though, that the Brighton vs Wolves possession bore fest with no quality in the final third isn’t where we are heading with our young, technically-minded coach. That match was abysmal. 
 

I'll give him longer as most fans know that he is working with a mid championship table squad of players, not a top end outfit, like quoted by JL,

His PPG at this time is worse than when he took over, but he's here to stay and that's the end of it.

The reasons 'for change' were not accurately quoted and the fans are still annoyed with that false claim, which is understandable. 

Unfortunately, the reality is, Liam will face more pressure from the fanbase, all because the board blasted out the wrong message when making the managerial change.

7 minutes ago, KingHillRed said:

How can anyone say we aren't a better side now under Manning?  Honestly if you can't see the improvements we've made as a team then I'm not sure where your head is at

Take aside the board bashing (which I completely understand) and compare things purely on a football basis and I would be absolutely amazed if, stats wise, we are not a much more defensively sound and threatening attacking side since LM has come in

Results will come if performances continue and to give the bloke a summary after 13 games is madness in my opinion - we just beat (and dominated really) a premier league side in the cup

I loved Nige, great guy, but I'm much more excited about the way we're going under Liam than I was under him for sure

Fevs will give you the stats

Edited January 23 by Tomo

[JoeAman08]

30 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I'll give him longer as most fans know that he is working with a mid championship table squad of players, not a top end outfit, like quoted by JL,

His PPG at this time is worse than when he took over, but he's here to stay and that's the end of it.

The reasons 'for change' were not accurately quoted and the fans are still annoyed with that false claim, which is understandable. 

Unfortunately, the reality is, Liam will face more pressure from the fanbase, all because the board blasted out the wrong message when making the managerial change.

Fevs will give you the stats

And there in lies the problems with stats.
And I love a stat but your eyes can tell you more. 

Under Pearson, Conway had no service. Under Manning, getting plenty of chances where he only has the keeper to beat. Under Pearson, Mehmeti was lost completely out on the wing and no chemistry with Pring. Under Manning, Mehmeti has the freedom to tuck inside and Pring sees it and will overlap more. Under Pearson, Knight was just a central player and a forward one at that. Under Manning, he is popping up everywhere. On the wing, in the box and at times dropping deep to keep the play going. I think we look a lot more well drilled and organised in possession under Manning than we did under Pearson where it felt like we needed to beat teams with set pieces or individual brilliance(which we lacked thus not scoring in open play much). 
 

I haven’t seen any noticeable regression in anyone. Have seen plenty of improvement in individuals though. Yes, we will still struggle to break down teams at times because we don’t have any difference makers in the front players. I’ll see how Twine gets on and on one game is encouraging that he can maybe be that for us. Still, the best sides have more than one in the team and we need to do more in recruitment if we can.  

[Numero Uno]

10 hours ago, Harry said:

I’m not talking it up. I’m just presenting a fact. As said earlier, this thread was started by someone quoting PPG after 14 games. I agree with you that it’s way to early to be forming opinions. 

You are absolutely right albeit if the worst happened and we were to obtain less than four points in the next four league games it would not be unreasonable to suggest that Manning has made a very mediocre (2-3 points in those four games) if not poor (less than two points) start. I don't "think" that will happen tbh but it is not a totally mental suggestion when you look at the fixtures.

The fact that are our hierarchy bullshitted and blustered their way through and did not have the ability to present a united and sensible message around the sacking of the previous manager that would have prevented direct comparisons such as this and people boring us to death on the forum with "a top 6 side should be getting a better result there" should be the bigger concern. You don't need experience in billion dollar corporations to get something as straightforward as that delivered in a better manner.

I look forward to the apologies from Jon, Sid and some footballing non-entity called Gavin apparently should Liam be put under unnecessary pressure by fans................

[Harry]

50 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

You are absolutely right albeit if the worst happened and we were to obtain less than four points in the next four league games it would not be unreasonable to suggest that Manning has made a very mediocre (2-3 points in those four games) if not poor (less than two points) start. I don't "think" that will happen tbh but it is not a totally mental suggestion when you look at the fixtures.

The fact that are our hierarchy bullshitted and blustered their way through and did not have the ability to present a united and sensible message around the sacking of the previous manager that would have prevented direct comparisons such as this and people boring us to death on the forum with "a top 6 side should be getting a better result there" should be the bigger concern. You don't need experience in billion dollar corporations to get something as straightforward as that delivered in a better manner.

I look forward to the apologies from Jon, Sid and some footballing non-entity called Gavin apparently should Liam be put under unnecessary pressure by fans................

100%. 
And that’s always been my stance. And I made it clear from day 1. 
The reasons the board gave for sacking Nige were an incredible amount of bollox. We all know it. 
But that’s not to say that it wasn’t necessarily the correct decision. I’ve said myself that I’d have happily let him see the season out but I didn’t think we’d renew him after the 3 years, so I think they went earlier than I thought they would. But would I say I was angered or disappointed - not really. 
Come the end, I did like Nige, I’d no doubt enjoy a beer or a ramble with him, but ultimately I don’t think he would have taken is to the next level (he’s stabilised us brilliantly but I don’t think was ever gonna be the guy to progress following that stabilisation).

I’ve said all along that the dumbass comments from the board have heaped unnecessary pressure on Manning. 
But I can see beyond that. I am more than happy with Manning so far and I am willing to give him plenty of time. 
Of course, if we don’t finish top 6 then the responsibility for that lies squarely at the doors of Jon & Brian. 

As I always said, I will judge Jon and Brian on whether we make top 6, but I will not be judging Liam by the same expectations - we’re a mid table team under Nige and we’ll be a mid table team under Liam. But I do genuinely feel that Nige wasn’t gonna be the man to take us to the next level and I do genuinely feel that Liam has chance to do so. 
 

I’m not anti Nige nor pro Liam. I was the first person on this forum to proclaim that I didn’t think our playing squad was a good fit for Liam. But I think he can progress us. 
 

My conclusion is the same as it was the day they appointed Liam. The board are bunch of idiots, they dealt with the Nige sacking in an appalling fashion, but I’m happy with Liam’s appointment. 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, KingHillRed said:

How can anyone say we aren't a better side now under Manning?  Honestly if you can't see the improvements we've made as a team then I'm not sure where your head is at

Take aside the board bashing (which I completely understand) and compare things purely on a football basis and I would be absolutely amazed if, stats wise, we are not a much more defensively sound and threatening attacking side since LM has come in

Results will come if performances continue and to give the bloke a summary after 13 games is madness in my opinion - we just beat (and dominated really) a premier league side in the cup

I loved Nige, great guy, but I'm much more excited about the way we're going under Liam than I was under him for sure

I’ll happily have that discussion with you.  But I am probably just gonna repeat a number of threads where I’ve tried to objectively review Liam Manning’s start here.  No board bashing from me in my evaluation that I’m building with one league game to go before I wrote it all up.

I think the stats will surprise you!

You can read my posts on this thread.

I could pre-judge why I think you think the way you do.  You aren’t the first person to claim that either.  But if you are gonna make wild claims about stats, then at least use (some) stats to back them up.

13 games (15 inc cup) is a decent sample, trends are there already.

1 hour ago, JoeAman08 said:

And there in lies the problems with stats.
And I love a stat but your eyes can tell you more. 

Under Pearson, Conway had no service. Under Manning, getting plenty of chances where he only has the keeper to beat. Under Pearson, Mehmeti was lost completely out on the wing and no chemistry with Pring. Under Manning, Mehmeti has the freedom to tuck inside and Pring sees it and will overlap more. Under Pearson, Knight was just a central player and a forward one at that. Under Manning, he is popping up everywhere. On the wing, in the box and at times dropping deep to keep the play going. I think we look a lot more well drilled and organised in possession under Manning than we did under Pearson where it felt like we needed to beat teams with set pieces or individual brilliance(which we lacked thus not scoring in open play much). 
 

I haven’t seen any noticeable regression in anyone. Have seen plenty of improvement in individuals though. Yes, we will still struggle to break down teams at times because we don’t have any difference makers in the front players. I’ll see how Twine gets on and on one game is encouraging that he can maybe be that for us. Still, the best sides have more than one in the team and we need to do more in recruitment if we can.  

Your eyes can deceive too, sometimes depending on what you “want” to see.  Aesthetics play a part too.  As fans we see 1v1s at gilt-edged chances but they aren’t scored as often as many think.  They are lower in xG than other types of chance, e.g. cut-backs.

FWIW, here’s Tommy’s attacking data:

Summary, Tommy isn’t 1) getting better service under Manning, but 2) he is getting better chances, but 3) he’s taking less of them.  So a mixed evaluation, right?

[Harry]

11 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

 

You don’t strike me as someone that sees marginal fractions in stats as significant but primarily rely on what you are seeing , watching , over a gradual unraveling and period of games

Btw I didn’t reply/ quote in my first post about this to anyone , but , being honest , your repeated ‘ I liked Nige’ whilst constantly overtly promoting LM v NP I thought was disingenuous 

 

Correct Shelts. I don’t tend to rely purely on stats and like to trust my instinct. 
I’ve had this conversation with Fevs - where I initially felt as if we were getting into attacking areas better, where I felt we were creating better chances etc. and then Fevs would provide me with the data and the changes were basically neutral. So the stats didn’t back up my eyes, but I still firmly believe my eyes and I think we are a different proposition now than what we were 2 months ago. 
 

So yes, I’m not someone who will rely on stats too deeply, but when people come up with one stat that says our PPG is down, it’s very easy to respond and say “but the PPG at home is up”. 
 

I’m not anti Nige and nor am I pro Liam. I’m just trying to be fair to Liam and give him plenty of time. But there are quite a few posters who are firmly pro Nige and are coming up with ever more inventive ways to start threads that show Nige in a good light and Liam in a bad light. 
I’m not firmly in either camp but I do find myself defending Liam, mainly because I think the comparisons and attempts to judge him too early are a bit stupid to be honest! 

Edited January 23 by Harry

[The Journalist]

11 minutes ago, Harry said:

100%. 
And that’s always been my stance. And I made it clear from day 1. 
The reasons the board gave for sacking Nige were an incredible amount of bollox. We all know it. 
But that’s not to say that it wasn’t necessarily the correct decision. I’ve said myself that I’d have happily let him see the season out but I didn’t think we’d renew him after the 3 years, so I think they went earlier than I thought they would. But would I say I was angered or disappointed - not really. 
Come the end, I did like Nige, I’d no doubt enjoy a beer or a ramble with him, but ultimately I don’t think he would have taken is to the next level (he’s stabilised us brilliantly but I don’t think was ever gonna be the guy to progress following that stabilisation).

I’ve said all along that the dumbass comments from the board have heaped unnecessary pressure on Manning. 
But I can see beyond that. I am more than happy with Manning so far and I am willing to give him plenty of time. 
Of course, if we don’t finish top 6 then the responsibility for that lies squarely at the doors of Jon & Brian. 

As I always said, I will judge Jon and Brian on whether we make top 6, but I will not be judging Liam by the same expectations - we’re a mid table team under Nige and we’ll be a mid table team under Liam. But I do genuinely feel that Nige wasn’t gonna be the man to take us to the next level and I do genuinely feel that Liam has chance to do so. 
 

I’m not anti Nige nor pro Liam. I was the first person on this forum to proclaim that I didn’t think our playing squad was a good fit for Liam. But I think he can progress us. 
 

My conclusion is the same as it was the day they appointed Liam. The board are bunch of idiots, they dealt with the Nige sacking in an appalling fashion, but I’m happy with Liam’s appointment. 

Not sure this level of common sense is welcome around here.

For what it's worth - and I watch way less of us than many of you, so I'm by no means an authority on this - but the sentence in bold is the key bit to all of this. The results being broadly similar sort of confirm it.

By my eyes, we're now less aggressive in and out of possession but pass the ball more and aim to have more control. Some people will prefer one, some people will prefer the other, but because the players are the same the results are the same.

I posted this just before Pearson was sacked and I think it kind of tallies with what you're saying now...

"There is some sense in moving on at the end of this three-and-a-bit-year period and bringing in some fresh eyes to make the next push. We are trending upwards and that’s arguably a good time to change. And many of us were in favour of this - in principle - three years ago. We predicted it.

"But now we’ve arrived here it just feels wrong, it feels slightly unfair on the manager and at best seems tone deaf to the supporters. That’s the bit (I think) we’re all uncomfortable with."

I feel like, three months on, that's sort of playing out? We're broadly content with Manning and supportive of him, it's just difficult to shake off how the board got us from A to B.

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, Harry said:

Correct Shelts. I don’t tend to rely purely on stats and like to trust my instinct. 
I’ve had this conversation with Fevs - where I initially felt as if we were getting into attacking areas better, where I felt we were creating better chances etc. and then Fevs would provide me with the data and the changes were basically neutral. So the stats didn’t back up my eyes, but I still firmly believe my eyes and I think we are a different proposition now than what we were 2 months ago. 
 

So yes, I’m not someone who will rely on stats too deeply, but when people come up with one stat that says our PPG is down, it’s very easy to respond and say “but the PPG at home is up”. 
 

I’m not anti Nige and nor am I pro Liam. I’m just trying to be fair to Liam and give him plenty of time. But there are quite a few posters who are firmly pro Nige and are coming up with ever more inventive ways to start threads that show Nige in a good light and Liam in a bad light. 
I’m not firmly in either camp but I do find myself defending Liam, mainly because I think the comparisons and attempts to judge him too early are a bit stupid to be honest! 

It is for that reason I am measuring us over 26 different ones, of which PPG isn’t one of them, although it has relevance, as does WDL.

And as you know, I’m eyes first….its why I take photos of stuff and draw my blobs to describe stuff.  But data serves a very good purpose too.

30 minutes ago, The Journalist said:

Not sure this level of common sense is welcome around here.

For what it's worth - and I watch way less of us than many of you, so I'm by no means an authority on this - but the sentence in bold is the key bit to all of this. The results being broadly similar sort of confirm it.

By my eyes, we're now less aggressive in and out of possession but pass the ball more and aim to have more control. Some people will prefer one, some people will prefer the other, but because the players are the same the results are the same.

I posted this just before Pearson was sacked and I think it kind of tallies with what you're saying now...

"There is some sense in moving on at the end of this three-and-a-bit-year period and bringing in some fresh eyes to make the next push. We are trending upwards and that’s arguably a good time to change. And many of us were in favour of this - in principle - three years ago. We predicted it.

"But now we’ve arrived here it just feels wrong, it feels slightly unfair on the manager and at best seems tone deaf to the supporters. That’s the bit (I think) we’re all uncomfortable with."

I feel like, three months on, that's sort of playing out? We're broadly content with Manning and supportive of him, it's just difficult to shake off how the board got us from A to B.

Bingo.  Great post!

We are doing some things differently.  At this stage it’s making little to no tangible difference to results.

If people want to claim “performances are better” there will be a big element of their thinking being drawn by their view of aesthetics!  If you prefer a more passing based style, you’ll probably lean towards thinking LM’s football style and performances are better.

Personally, I don’t care about style, I care about results.  But when I say that, I have to understand how style impacts results and performances.  At the moment, the more passing-style of LM is not improving our ability to create chances to score, in fact it’s gone down a bit.  But it’s also helped make us slightly more difficult to score against too.  It’s balancing out

It’s kinda doing the opposite to what most would expect!!

Why is that?

Imho, we are seeing more of the 90 mins being played where both teams are structured.  In the championship, most teams aren’t good enough to break down set / structured defences.  We are one that fall into that bracket.

But we are starting to see some improvement in our press (when we actually trigger it rather than block) and therefore create chances in transition.  It’s a bit perverse that we probably all thought we’d see lovely patterns of play helping to open up defences, yet it’s when chaos is reigning that we do our best creating.  Or from set-pieces!!

I’d love to sit in front of Manning and get his thoughts on this.

OTIB is a really interesting read at the mo’.  There’s good debate.  We are gradually moving away from it being Nige v Liam (when it never was really) and focusing more on Liam.

Edited January 23 by Davefevs

[Topper 123]

I think PPG is a good barometer BUT doesn’t matter if it’s NP or Liam or PEP we are what we are hence similarities-a mid table hard working bunch of footballers up against ex prem + parachute payments top half of league , we will only compete when we compete on the transfer front and that ain’t happening any time soon and forget the Luton towns that’s a dream that comes around once in a life time so stop comparing size of cocks and show owners that we do support and keep up our magnificent support and our ever increasing fan base and maybe just maybe we can get to a point where we can compete YOU REDS 

[Tomo]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

It is for that reason I am measuring us over 26 different ones, of which PPG isn’t one of them, although it has relevance, as does WDL.

And as you know, I’m eyes first….its why I take photos of stuff and draw my blobs to describe stuff.  But data serves a very good purpose too.

Bingo.  Great post!

We are doing some things differently.  At this stage it’s making little to no tangible difference to results.

If people want to claim “performances are better” there will be a big element of their thinking being drawn by their view of aesthetics!  If you prefer a more passing based style, you’ll probably lean towards thinking LM’s football style and performances are better.

Personally, I don’t care about style, I care about results. But when I say that, I have to understand how style impacts results and performances. At the moment, the more passing-style of LM is not improving our ability to create chances to score, in fact it’s gone down a bit. But it’s also helped make us slightly more difficult to score against too. It’s balancing out

It’s kinda doing the opposite to what most would expect!!

Why is that?

Imho, we are seeing more of the 90 mins being played where both teams are structured.  In the championship, most teams aren’t good enough to break down set / structured defences.  We are one that fall into that bracket.

But we are starting to see some improvement in our press (when we actually trigger it rather than block) and therefore create chances in transition.  It’s a bit perverse that we probably all thought we’d see lovely patterns of play helping to open up defences, yet it’s when chaos is reigning that we do our best creating.  Or from set-pieces!!

I’d love to sit in front of Manning and get his thoughts on this.

OTIB is a really interesting read at the mo’.  There’s good debate.  We are gradually moving away from it being Nige v Liam (when it never was really) and focusing more on Liam.

Great points made. Ultimately, our PPG collectively (forget the split and who the manager is/was) stands at 1.32PPG after 28 games and indicates that if we follow that trend over the next 18 games (which I think we will), we will end up on 60 points. Pretty much identical to last season.

I think that's where the current squad is, nothing more, nothing less.

It still reverts back to the board, badly handling the change of manager situation. Their 'story telling' to the fans was insulting, as none of us really believe that our current squad is a 'top end' outfit.

Let's get behind Liam and hope he receives 'the financial backing from the board' unlike the previous manager who had no real backing in the summer after losing AS and having a depleted squad when the injuries set in.

The beef is not with the manager(s). 

 

Edited January 23 by Tomo

[KingHillRed]

1 hour ago, The Journalist said:

Not sure this level of common sense is welcome around here.

For what it's worth - and I watch way less of us than many of you, so I'm by no means an authority on this - but the sentence in bold is the key bit to all of this. The results being broadly similar sort of confirm it.

By my eyes, we're now less aggressive in and out of possession but pass the ball more and aim to have more control. Some people will prefer one, some people will prefer the other, but because the players are the same the results are the same.

I posted this just before Pearson was sacked and I think it kind of tallies with what you're saying now...

"There is some sense in moving on at the end of this three-and-a-bit-year period and bringing in some fresh eyes to make the next push. We are trending upwards and that’s arguably a good time to change. And many of us were in favour of this - in principle - three years ago. We predicted it.

"But now we’ve arrived here it just feels wrong, it feels slightly unfair on the manager and at best seems tone deaf to the supporters. That’s the bit (I think) we’re all uncomfortable with."

I feel like, three months on, that's sort of playing out? We're broadly content with Manning and supportive of him, it's just difficult to shake off how the board got us from A to B.

Great post and spot on

I think preference of play visually is a big factor and perhaps that is the barometer (without stats) that we all judge

I feel like we are more threatening and we play, for longer periods, in more attacking areas of the pitch - again, I don't have stats but that's the way it feels

Fevs - was interesting to see the Tommy stats and thanks for putting them up - in my mind, Tommy has changed roles under LM (more isolated and learning a new role) he took a while to get going (and still is) so can the stats be compared properly?  You are the expert

[Davefevs]

43 minutes ago, KingHillRed said:

Great post and spot on

I think preference of play visually is a big factor and perhaps that is the barometer (without stats) that we all judge

I feel like we are more threatening and we play, for longer periods, in more attacking areas of the pitch - again, I don't have stats but that's the way it feels

Fevs - was interesting to see the Tommy stats and thanks for putting them up - in my mind, Tommy has changed roles under LM (more isolated and learning a new role) he took a while to get going (and still is) so can the stats be compared properly?  You are the expert

FWIW I think our “striker” (whoever has played) has generally been isolated all season, it’s not a Manning-thing imho.  The way we’ve played the “front three” all season has been sub-optimal for getting the best out of the “striker”.

Tommy’s “passes received” numbers have been low regardless of manager.  His most “volumous” game was Birmingham (a) under Manning, but mainly his touches came in the channels! 

I’m not convinced his role has changed much.  I kinda expected under Manning that he’d be more involved in general play, but that just hasn’t happened (Manning intimated that). And I think when we get into the attacking third, we are largely no different.  The difference under Manning happens mainly in our defensive third, and a lesser extent, the middle-third.  All imho.  The change is the speed and regularity we get there.  When we play faster Tommy comes alive, when we play slower it’s harder for him whoever is in charge.  West Ham (away) case in point.  One ball win, one lay off, one pass, Tommy goal.

Tommy seems to be a big barometer of fans fickle-ness.

When he’s not scoring:

- his heads been turned

- he doesn’t suit the style of play

- he’s lost a yard of pace since his injury / he’s holding back

- he’s taken the sacking badly

- he looks grumpy on the pitch

And yet when he does score the opposite applies.  It does make me chuckle though.

Players are constantly adapting, sometimes just because of who is marking them in a particular game, or opposition style.

 

[mozo]

2 hours ago, Topper 123 said:

I think PPG is a good barometer BUT doesn’t matter if it’s NP or Liam or PEP we are what we are hence similarities-a mid table hard working bunch of footballers up against ex prem + parachute payments top half of league , we will only compete when we compete on the transfer front and that ain’t happening any time soon and forget the Luton towns that’s a dream that comes around once in a life time so stop comparing size of cocks and show owners that we do support and keep up our magnificent support and our ever increasing fan base and maybe just maybe we can get to a point where we can compete YOU REDS 

PPG is all well and good but the most important metric is league position. 

Technically, Manning has got us two places higher than Nige did.

Account for GW 15 and he's taken us two places down. 

What does that tell us? Probably that it's pointless trying to make these comparisons, and just give the guy more time.

Edited January 23 by mozo

[KingHillRed]

Without hijacking the thread and turning into a Tommy thread, I agree with the fickleness comment above and I also don't think that is specific to him

It would be interesting to see what our first "striker" signing is and this will give an indication of what type of player LM sees playing in the '9'

It does feel like we would almost suit a false '9' and that isn't our Tom

Without paraphrasing the gaffer I do think we are an evolving beast and part of my frustration is that he is being judged on results with a playing squad he has inherited (which isn't top 6 as we all knew)

Who's fault is that?  Not sure really but he'll need at least a couple of windows to start to turn us into what he wants

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, mozo said:

PPG is all well and good but the most important metric is league position. 

Technically, Manning has got us two places higher than Nige did.

Account for GW 15 and he's taken us two places down. 

What does that tell us? Probably that it's pointless trying to make these comparisons, and just give the guy more time.

I think you have to be able to evaluate the trend(s).  I fully expect LM / CH / JK are monitoring every single game and evaluating, along the lines of what improvements have we see from game x to game y, etc.  They might not be too concerned with PPG as us fans are, but what is the trend of the underlying metrics, and what is driving those metrics.

Firstly nobody is saying “his time is up” are they, so we are all giving him time.  We are just making observations on what has happened so far.  I think OTIB is hugely defensive of anyone just giving their view, especially when there seems to be no justification to be “gushing” about his start, nor has it been “shitty” either.  It’s a bit of a mixed bag, and I’m not talking results.

But there’s also a big part of me that believes that more time in itself doesn’t always equate to improvement.  Thats the bit that interests me.  Is this the start of something epic, or the start of a false Dawn (not a false nine).  Likelihood is it’s something in between, hopefully on the side erring towards epic.

[mozo]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think you have to be able to evaluate the trend(s).  I fully expect LM / CH / JK are monitoring every single game and evaluating, along the lines of what improvements have we see from game x to game y, etc.  They might not be too concerned with PPG as us fans are, but what is the trend of the underlying metrics, and what is driving those metrics.

Firstly nobody is saying “his time is up” are they, so we are all giving him time.  We are just making observations on what has happened so far.  I think OTIB is hugely defensive of anyone just giving their view, especially when there seems to be no justification to be “gushing” about his start, nor has it been “shitty” either.  It’s a bit of a mixed bag, and I’m not talking results.

But there’s also a big part of me that believes that more time in itself doesn’t always equate to improvement.  Thats the bit that interests me.  Is this the start of something epic, or the start of a false Dawn (not a false nine).  Likelihood is it’s something in between, hopefully on the side erring towards epic.

No one is saying that Manning's time is up, but as was the case with Nige, there are people questioning him with every dropped point. Never gonna change. PPG is a massive over simplification, and is only important relevant to our rivals.