Max

[wendyredredrobin]

max has played fairly well but when he came into the side his distribution was really quick and we were often breaking away as a result.  Now he takes much too long to release the ball.  He also needs to spend a bit of time learning to catch a football as he spills quite a few that he really shouldn't.

[Cowshed]

43 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

True, they are masters at controlling games so it sort of makes sense. I would say though, as we give teams more opportunities the shot stopping is much more relevant than giving the ball away on occasion. 

I seem to remember there was a bit of fuss in the press because Ederson was brought in not long after paying nearly £20M for Bravo, and all because he was better with his feet. TBF Pep had a plan and a footballing keeper was a big part of that.
One of the reasons I defend Max ( and I don't do it blindly thinking he's brilliant ) is because of how much it would cost for a substantial upgrade. He's a good shot stopper, with reasonable distribution , reasonable handling and a cool head . To get better we would be spending several millions.

Two thirds of a keepers game is generally played with the feet. Liam Mannings play may increase that to far past two thirds. Whats your keeper like at the overwhelming majority of their game? Reasonable.

Teams playing variants of possession based football don't go with keepers that are reasonable, average etc .. Distribution has to be good, very good, and better. 

Technical feeds the tactical, and lesser technique creates tactical inflexibility.   

[1960maaan]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Two thirds of a keepers game is generally played with the feet. Liam Mannings play may increase that to far past two thirds. Whats your keeper like at the overwhelming majority of their game? Reasonable.

Teams playing variants of possession based football don't go with keepers that are reasonable, average etc .. Distribution has to be good, very good, and better. 

Technical feeds the tactical, and lesser technique creates tactical inflexibility.   

And Max was an improvement on Bentley who was an upgrade on Fielding and the next upgrade will cost £5M plus minimum , unless we find a gem who's OOC or something.
Which is my point , we have the keeper we can afford ATM unless we get lucky somehow.
Don't disagree with any of your points, but they don't make the likelihood of getting an upgrade any more likely.

TBF Manning has his work cut out getting the rest comfortable playing possession, which if he does, it will make Max's job easier as they will start to be available more often. 

[Cowshed]

Just now, 1960maaan said:

TBF Manning has his work cut out getting the rest comfortable playing possession, which if he does, it will make Max's job easier as they will start to be available more often. 

I can't think of any teams comfortable in possession with average on the ball in goal. Manning will have his work cut out to achieve a team comfortable in possession without one. 

[1960maaan]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

I can't think of any teams comfortable in possession with average on the ball in goal. Manning will have his work cut out to achieve a team comfortable in possession without one. 

But the same has been said about a few of the outfield players.
IMO a lot of the possession game is nothing to do with the ball, the players out of possession hold the key. They move and give 2 options to the man on the ball it makes his job easier.  You stick Ederson in goal for us and I would be will to bet he doesn't look so cool all the time. Manning has his work cut out though out the squad.
Take Tanner as an example, he gets pelters for passing back , but Max is always on. Now take OLeary and when his lines are cut off he has no where to go but long and then the chance of success is reduced. Yes Ederson might find the 30-40 yard pass to a spare man, but thats usually because the other players have dragged the opposition around. Our out ball will usually be to a challenge . 
We would love a top quality keeper, but as I keep saying , we aren't going to buy one any time soon. Maybe after a spell of actually getting to grips with the style and being a (relative ) success then we will be in that position , but I would suggest there are other positional priorities for now.

[Cowshed]

41 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

But the same has been said about a few of the outfield players.
IMO a lot of the possession game is nothing to do with the ball, the players out of possession hold the key. They move and give 2 options to the man on the ball it makes his job easier.  You stick Ederson in goal for us and I would be will to bet he doesn't look so cool all the time. Manning has his work cut out though out the squad.
Take Tanner as an example, he gets pelters for passing back , but Max is always on. Now take OLeary and when his lines are cut off he has no where to go but long and then the chance of success is reduced. Yes Ederson might find the 30-40 yard pass to a spare man, but thats usually because the other players have dragged the opposition around. Our out ball will usually be to a challenge . 
We would love a top quality keeper, but as I keep saying , we aren't going to buy one any time soon. Maybe after a spell of actually getting to grips with the style and being a (relative ) success then we will be in that position , but I would suggest there are other positional priorities for now.

The shapes and patterns the team play would alter because of his exceptional ability with the ball a his feet. He would spread confidence throughout the team because of his outlier capability. Ederson does not do might do, he does and regularly in excess of any other keeper in the world because of his range and symmetrical passing off multiple surfaces. 

Is Liam Manning adopting a style or an identity? If possession is part of the identity of the team not every keeper will be suited to a possession based team.

What possession based system is it that does not depend upon the high level efficiency of its keeper to distribute the football? Difficult to think of those that omit the keeper.

If possession based play is a priority, the keeper possessing the ability to distribute the ball has to be a key priority, its a major part of the principles. You cant just bung any keeper in to a system they don't have the skills for and hope it works. Possession football requires advanced foot skill in the no 1, the ability to dictate play. Its fundamental to attack and rest defence.

 

 

Edited January 21 by Cowshed

[1960maaan]

10 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The shapes and patterns the team play would alter because of his exceptional ability with the ball a his feet. He would spread confidence throughout the team because of his outlier capability. Ederson does not do might do, he does and regularly in excess of any other keeper in the world because of his range and symmetrical passing off multiple surfaces. 

Is Liam Manning adopting a style or an identity? If possession is part of the identity of the team not every keeper will be suited to a possession based team.

What possession based system is it that does not depend upon the high level efficiency of its keeper to distribute the football? Difficult to think of those that omit the keeper.

If possession based play is a priority, the keeper possessing the ability to distribute the ball has to be a key priority, its a major part of the principles. You cant just bung any keeper in to a system they don't have the skills for and hope it works. Possession football requires advanced foot skill in the no 1, the ability to dictate play. Its fundamental to attack and rest defence.

 

 

I love that you think having a quality ball playing Keeper would automatically change an outfield players mindset, habits, concentration etc. It took Nige long enough to get a basic change towards holding the ball more. 
We could have brought Ederson in to start with if it was that easy. Attitudes , habits and  mindsets have to be changed towards the system. We still aren't beyond a player making a pass and switching off thinking the job is done. 

We are going round in circles, so I'll leave it as I started. We have Oleary and we will have him for a while because we can't afford an improvement.  He is a decent keeper and until we are threatening the top 6 consistently ,we wont spend the money while we need other positions which are higher priority.

[formerly known as ivan]

13 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

You absolutely are, I doubt anyone says it's perfect but it's a tactic he's obviously told to use and saying,

Is not in the real world. No one would "Drop it on Pring’s head" every time , OLeary probably hit him 2/3 times and missed a couple. I remember one lead to a break from a flick, but the ones going straight out stand out over those that Pring challenges for because it is frustrating. 
Ederson & Pickford are probably 2 of the best , they each cost £30M+ , not sure you can expect the same from Max.

I would like to think they would be working on it , as much to give him another option so he doesn't have to play that ball as much as actually improving his accuracy .
TBH I was more annoyed/disappointed with the long floated clearances that screamed for a big CG to win. I'd love to see him strike a ball like Ederson, much lower trajectory that give defenders less chance to set, but I don't see that happen regularly any time soon. 

So you think Max is being coached to smash the ball over Pring’s head and raise his hand in apology each time? If he is then whoever is coaching that deserves a pay rise as they have taught Max to be very good at it.

All I am saying is Max’s kicking needs to be drastically improved. If this was then he’d be a much better all round keeper and someone I’d be more than happy with sticking with.

[1960maaan]

28 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

So you think Max is being coached to smash the ball over Pring’s head and raise his hand in apology each time? If he is then whoever is coaching that deserves a pay rise as they have taught Max to be very good at it.

All I am saying is Max’s kicking needs to be drastically improved. If this was then he’d be a much better all round keeper and someone I’d be more than happy with sticking with.

So you think he does it every time? He clearly doesn't .
Can he improve? Yes , I totally agree with that.
Given shorter options he wouldn't even try to find Pring , it's an out ball , and a risky one. He has to clear players and can't hit it too long . Vyner & Dickie were criticised on here for over hitting passes Saturday , it happens. The better we get at possession, the better the options and the less he should have to play that ball. 

[Dr Balls]

24 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said:

So you think Max is being coached to smash the ball over Pring’s head and raise his hand in apology each time? If he is then whoever is coaching that deserves a pay rise as they have taught Max to be very good at it.

All I am saying is Max’s kicking needs to be drastically improved. If this was then he’d be a much better all round keeper and someone I’d be more than happy with sticking with.

The tactic of the goalkeeper going long and kicking it over the head of the full back / wing back didn’t start with Max. It goes way back. Frank Fielding did it regularly towards Joe Bryan and it was just as frustrating then!

Max is a decent goalkeeper at this level and I would say is still improving. He’s no longer “young” as such but for both Pearson and Mannimg he offers something that Bentley couldn’t do, which is use his feet. It is akin to Joe Hart versus Ederson.

What Max does well is anticipate danger and come out, whether it’s with his feet, his head or his hands. He can kick off both his left and right foot which not many keepers can manage and he’s a more than decent shot stopper. Yes he still needs to practice his distribution and not play players into trouble at the back, but those mistakes happen with almost all teams  playing that way, given that playing out from the back is now the only way to play at higher levels for many coaches and managers it seems.

Max is a decent Championship  keeper, who has grown into the role under Pearson, and anyone who thinks that’s where we most need an upgrade right now is kidding themselves, as it wouldn’t be cheap and any improvement marginal. The bigger concern remains what happens if Max got injured as Bajic as his understudy really is an unknown quantity at this level.

[Negan]

He’s an average keeper, but we’re an average side. We’ll never progress up the league with him in goal and it’s as simple as that. If the club are happy for us to be mid table then great. He needs replacing as number 1 though imo. Great back up option but had he been singed in the summer and not from our academy then he’d receive even more criticism. No problem with him seeing this season out as it’s pretty much done now, won’t go up or down but if we don’t bring in a new GK in the summer window then I’ll really question this clubs true ambitions. We need much better quality in goal and upfront, we aren’t far off challenging for top 6 but those 2 positions are where we lack serious quality. 

[Roger Red Hat]

I'm trying to think of all the 'keepers I have seen at Ashton Gate that are an upgrade on Max.......

[22A]

21 hours ago, Rob k said:

The Watford player should have take it first time and scored. He gave us an opportunity by taking a poor touch 

That was said on Saturday afternoon on SSN. They praised Max saying he read the situation well.

[bcfc01]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

So you think he does it every time? He clearly doesn't .
Can he improve? Yes , I totally agree with that.
Given shorter options he wouldn't even try to find Pring , it's an out ball , and a risky one. He has to clear players and can't hit it too long . Vyner & Dickie were criticised on here for over hitting passes Saturday , it happens. The better we get at possession, the better the options and the less he should have to play that ball. 

FWIW, I think his distribution has improved and I say that as someone who used to moan about it (often).

His shot stopping is generally very good and he normally comes off his line confidently and decisively, but where he lets himself down occasionally is when he plays short passes to a player who has the opposition bearing down on them. I would say this happens at least once per game and if that pass is to Williams we are liable to concede a chance or goal. The pass is either too slow or he just doesn't see the danger. I'm not sure that is something that he can improve.

 

[Cowshed]

3 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

The tactic of the goalkeeper going long and kicking it over the head of the full back / wing back didn’t start with Max. It goes way back. Frank Fielding did it regularly towards Joe Bryan and it was just as frustrating then!

 

Its different.

City would overload one side in an effort to win the second ball off Bryan winning the first. There was and is no effort to go over the full backs head as it is/was a diagonal ball into a wide receiver positioned before the half way line. 

Currently City are doing something similar, but with a very obvious difference. There is no overload around the diagonal ball so if City win the first contact, they are unlikely to win the second contact as numerically opponents getting compact out number City's players. 

Why, the difference? Dunno.

[Robbored]

8 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Its different.

City would overload one side in an effort to win the second ball off Bryan winning the first. There was and is no effort to go over the full backs head as it is/was a diagonal ball into a wide receiver positioned before the half way line. 

Currently City are doing something similar, but with a very obvious difference. There is no overload around the diagonal ball so if City win the first contact, they are unlikely to win the second contact as numerically opponents getting compact out number City's players. 

Why, the difference? Dunno.

You’ve answered your own question there Cowshed - plus a very different manager with very different ideals.

[Cowshed]

14 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I love that you think having a quality ball playing Keeper would automatically change an outfield players mindset, habits, concentration etc.

Yes. This is exactly what happens when you have confidence in your team mates ability and you know that they can carry out the team expectations adeptly. Players who cannot perform core tasks create doubt, uncertainty and tactical limitation. 

If City's identity is to be possession based the spine of the team will need to be comfortable in possession of the ball - That is a fundamental requirement.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'm a big fan of Max, man in possession albeit his play possession  itself could perhaps improve but genuine competition could benefit him and us.

Basic, Wiles-Richards and Thomas don't fit the bill for this 

Edited January 22 by Mr Popodopolous

[Cowshed]

Just now, Robbored said:

You’ve answered your own question there Cowshed - plus a very different manager with very different ideals.

What are the differing ideas? I could understand what Mr Johnson was attempting. Liam Manning has been using a variant that I don't understand.

Could you explain why from the keeper, from dead balls and from open play City play a ball to a isolated wide receivers head, dramatically reducing the possibility of retaining possession?  

[Robbored]

20 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

What are the differing ideas? I could understand what Mr Johnson was attempting. Liam Manning has been using a variant that I don't understand.

Could you explain why from the keeper, from dead balls and from open play City play a ball to an isolated wide receivers head, dramatically reducing the possibility of retaining possession?  

Manning doesn’t overload a particular side for a start. 
Is Max instructed where to try and put the ball or is he allowed to put the ball where he thinks the the best option?

Different managers………

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Manning doesn’t overload a particular side for a start. 
Is Max instructed where to try and put the ball or is he allowed to put the ball where he thinks the the best option?

Different managers………

The keeper is instructed where to put the ball. He is not ignoring the rest of the pitch and going to the same area diagonally with some regularity, so this is a intent. This is a rehearsed option. 

Why? I don't know. Hence I cant answer my question.  

[Robbored]

39 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The keeper is instructed where to put the ball. He is not ignoring the rest of the pitch and going to the same area diagonally with some regularity, so this is a intent. This is a rehearsed option. 

Why? I don't know. Hence I cant answer my question.  

Under LJ and Frankie Fielding it was clear to everyone what the strategy was but so far I’ve not detected a particular side or strategy that Max plays to which is why I asked ‘is he under instructions?’

We’ve seen him roll it out to defender, welly it diagonally left or right and on rare occasions drop kick up the pitch. With ball in hand he’ll throws it overarm left or right depending on who is available. Attacks have developed from that kind of distribution.

Which way/how Max distributes the ball appears to be his choice.

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

Under LJ and Frankie Fielding it was clear to everyone what the strategy was but so far I’ve not detected a particular side or strategy that Max plays to which is why I asked ‘is he under instructions?’

We’ve seen him roll it out to defender, welly it diagonally left or right and on rare occasions drop kick up the pitch. With ball in hand he’ll throws it overarm left or right depending on who is available. Attacks have developed from that kind of distribution.

Which way/how Max distributes the ball appears to be his choice.

Teams play in patterns. Bristol City do. This is rehearsed. Players deliberately take up positions. The diagonal balls are instruction.

The team is allegedly playing possession football. Max O'leary's passing accuracy is on the low side. The question remains why is the team pursuing a tactic that is challenging for the keeper to perform and so ineffective? 

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Teams play in patterns. Bristol City do. This is rehearsed. Players deliberately take up positions. The diagonal balls are instruction.

The team is allegedly playing possession football. Max O'leary's passing accuracy is on the low side. The question remains why is the team pursuing a tactic that is challenging for the keeper to perform and so ineffective? 

Passing accuracy between players is far better the shorter the pass. Obviously the opposite applies. Few few players can ping an accurate pass 60yrds or more. Max trying a long diagonal is far more likely to go astray than if he simply rolls it to a teammate to build from the back.

However - if a wide player is available then an overarm is also less likely to go astray.

On a side note - I noticed against Watford that Vyners distribution was poor in comparison with other games.

[Chivs]

4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

What are the differing ideas? I could understand what Mr Johnson was attempting. Liam Manning has been using a variant that I don't understand.

Could you explain why from the keeper, from dead balls and from open play City play a ball to a isolated wide receivers head, dramatically reducing the possibility of retaining possession?  

I think you are mistaken to believe the tactic is to retain the ball.

Max passes to Pring (soon also McCrorie) with the intention of Pring clobbering the opposition fullback.

Working quite well so far....

[Cowshed]

9 minutes ago, Chivs said:

I think you are mistaken to believe the tactic is to retain the ball.

Max passes to Pring (soon also McCrorie) with the intention of Pring clobbering the opposition fullback.

Working quite well so far....

Excellent. Could they be clobbered a bit further up the park?

18 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Passing accuracy between players is far better the shorter the pass. Obviously the opposite applies. Few few players can ping an accurate pass 60yrds or more. Max trying a long diagonal is far more likely to go astray than if he simply rolls it to a teammate to build from the back.

However - if a wide player is available then an overarm is also less likely to go astray.

On a side note - I noticed against Watford that Vyners distribution was poor in comparison with other games.

There could be a sense in driving the ball off the pitch deep in the opponents half and moving the defence to the half way line and the midfield/forwards applying pressure to the throw. 

The area O'leary hits diagonally is not sixty metres away. O'leary is aiming at areas shorter. 

 

[Natchfever]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Teams play in patterns. Bristol City do. This is rehearsed. Players deliberately take up positions. The diagonal balls are instruction.

The team is allegedly playing possession football. Max O'leary's passing accuracy is on the low side. The question remains why is the team pursuing a tactic that is challenging for the keeper to perform and so ineffective? 

Presumably, Max has trained with the ball at his feet from childhood  so do you think he should be able to improve not just his delivery of pass, but also his vision and therefore timing and selection of pass?

Seems a tall order, particularly the vision point, but im a spectator rather student of the game.

[Cowshed]

40 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

Presumably, Max has trained with the ball at his feet from childhood  so do you think he should be able to improve not just his delivery of pass, but also his vision and therefore timing and selection of pass?

Seems a tall order, particularly the vision point, but im a spectator rather student of the game.

Yes 100% Max O'leary can improve.

Vision cannot be physically improved, unless we mean using visual aids.

We  improve football intelligence, and skills - interpreting what is happening in front of us, visual cues, relation to the game, spatial awareness ... And that's training. Training to expect the expected to and the minds creates memory based upon training, its patterns of play which increase intensity, sharpness, fluency .. 

Max O'leary will be working on his patterns of play, and in units etc. 

Improvement is linked to technical ability. We wont see startling driven passes in a millisecond effortlessly landing at the full back/wb's feet like Pickford. We wont see the ball being pinged accuracy over varying distances. 

O'leary is a solid capable keeper and his distribution is decent. If BCFC are to be this possession based team, playing out, if this a real change in direction   .. A core high level of ability to distribute is fundamental in goal. 

[MrRedRobin]

Thought Max was brilliant tonight. Admittedly, didn't have tons to do but when called into action thought he was sensational. Kicking was great, he was coming out to catch balls. Along with the fantastic defence we have we look brilliant at the back.

[Numero Uno]

One of the best things he did tonight was come 45 yards off his line when Forest had that quick break, that’s what you call sweeper keeping.