Back him, or Sack him

[Natchfever]

20 minutes ago, Bob Turnip said:

 

Sorry for late reply, but how do you know this was the remit? Were you in the room with them when he was told this during the recruitment process? Just because JL and BT fed us fans a load of tripe, doesn't mean they said the same to LM.

 

 

**** me getting desperate now.

[Crimson Crayola]

As has been said elsewhere. No point in sacking now. I'd give him the summer on the grass and give him up until Oct/Nov to show a significant improvement in performances and results. But if things don't improve before the end of the season Tinnion and Jr are going to be under a whole lot of pressure. 

[Crimson Crayola]

3 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

**** me getting desperate now.

He's not wrong. I doubt that ultimatum was put to Manning on his interview.

[W-S-M Seagull]

26 minutes ago, Bob Turnip said:

 

Sorry for late reply, but how do you know this was the remit? Were you in the room with them when he was told this during the recruitment process? Just because JL and BT fed us fans a load of tripe, doesn't mean they said the same to LM.

 

 

Really don't like this excuse. 

If they've lied to us, why does that mean we should suddenly be OK with the lies? 

And secondly if they were being honest about expectations, why can we suddenly not hold them account for us failing those expectations? 

[fisherrich]

On 25/02/2024 at 13:09, Gert Mare said:

The bloke was on a hiding to nothing due to a ridiculous non footballing decision to sack the previous manager who had made us competitive in most games without any funds to improve and wage constraints.

The most laughable thing I’ve heard was that Nigel Pearson had taken us as far as he could. Really? The bloke took Leicester to the Premier League with actual backing and kept them there with a great escape when they looked dead and buried and basically built the squad which won the Premier League at 5000-1 against odds, but if some want to believe that he had taken Bristol City as far as he could then in my opinion I think that’s a totally deluded view.

We have no choice but to back Manning at the moment. We need to get this season over with and it’s too dangerous to create any further instability at this time.

The ones that should be sacked in my opinion are the ones that made one of the most ludicrous decisions since the dark days of the early 80’s. They also blatantly lied to the supporters about the decision and they made it abundantly clear that success had to happen this season, not next.

If anyone needs to go it isn’t Manning, he’s been sold a lie like the rest of us, but he hasn’t helped by failing to play to our strengths with what he has got at his disposal which is most definitely not top end championship challenging.

There are 2 people that need to die by their swords and that is the Chairman and DoF sidekick. Out of touch with reality, egotistical, toxic and clueless when it comes to taking this club forward.

Agreed, get rid of Zippy & Bungle. Joke of a football club.

[Bob Turnip]

21 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

**** me getting desperate now.

Sorry, what? Desperate for what? Was just pointing out that whatever discussions were had between them probably wasn't along the lines of what we were told.

 

[Silvio Dante]

39 minutes ago, Bob Turnip said:

 

Sorry for late reply, but how do you know this was the remit? Were you in the room with them when he was told this during the recruitment process? Just because JL and BT fed us fans a load of tripe, doesn't mean they said the same to LM.

 

 

I think what you need to do is look at parallels with the real world.

Say a business appoints a new CEO, and during that process they articulate profit/results expectations to the market (in this case the fans). If they fail to meet the market expectations that the company has signposted, then the share price drops and confidence in the company reduces.

(This is not unique. Profit signalling to markets is commonplace)

Now, if following those results, the company said “Yeah but we didn’t mean those were the actual expectations of the new CEO” how do you think the market would react to both that statement and any future results expectations? It’d be fine if they’d missed the results expectation because the market had changed, but if nothing had altered then the shareholders would be baying for the blood of both the board and the CEO.

Which is why this argument is, frankly, bollocks.

[Bob Turnip]

16 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Really don't like this excuse. 

If they've lied to us, why does that mean we should suddenly be OK with the lies? 

And secondly if they were being honest about expectations, why can we suddenly not hold them account for us failing those expectations? 

 

Not sure where I've made any excuses for anyone. Just asked a question.

Where did I say we should be OK with the lies? I'm not OK with the lies, which you'd know if you engaged rather than just assumed.

Of course we should hold people to account for failing. My point being for all we know JL and Tin's said to LM, don't worry about this season, just keep us up and focus on next season (that's just an example before you lose the plot), therefore LM's remit will be different to what we've been told.

I don't think anyone thinks they were being honest about anything, so yes they should be held to account for lying to us.

 

 

[Bob Turnip]

7 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think what you need to do is look at parallels with the real world.

Say a business appoints a new CEO, and during that process they articulate profit/results expectations to the market (in this case the fans). If they fail to meet the market expectations that the company has signposted, then the share price drops and confidence in the company reduces.

(This is not unique. Profit signalling to markets is commonplace)

Now, if following those results, the company said “Yeah but we didn’t mean those were the actual expectations of the new CEO” how do you think the market would react to both that statement and any future results expectations? It’d be fine if they’d missed the results expectation because the market had changed, but if nothing had altered then the shareholders would be baying for the blood of both the board and the CEO.

Which is why this argument is, frankly, bollocks.

I haven't made an argument, but thanks.

 

 

[handsofclay]

49 minutes ago, Bob Turnip said:

 

Sorry for late reply, but how do you know this was the remit? Were you in the room with them when he was told this during the recruitment process? Just because JL and BT fed us fans a load of tripe, doesn't mean they said the same to LM.

 

 

This makes it seem like LM was totally oblivious to the situation he inherited. I would give him enough credit to assume he would know that Pearson was reasonably popular with the fanbase and had achieved a cohesion at the club despite very trying circumstances and constraints.

He would surely thus be aware of the publicly stated reason as to why he had been dismissed (not challenging for the top six). I would like to think, therefore, that even if it wasn't stated in the approach that was made to him to obtain his services as head coach here that he would have, at the very least, the intelligence to realise that the fans and his employers would be ultimately judging him on his ability to produce this outcome and that if he didn't, indeed, if his tenure seen City's position slide even further from the play offs that his job could well be in jeopardy.

 

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, Bob Turnip said:

I haven't made an argument, but thanks.

 

 

It’s definitely an argument as the statement below is arguing (by definition) that LM may have been told something different:

“Just because JL and BT fed us fans a load of tripe, doesn't mean they said the same to LM”.

But away from semantics here, I think you’re definitely on the page that they were dishonest with the fanbase - and that is I think pretty much universally accepted. Where I think your point more is lies in how wise it was (if they did do so) for BT/JL to give different expectations to LM then they articulated externally. And let’s be frank, every football club does that - they all say “we’re going for it this season” when they know 14th might be a success. The difference as I think again we all accept here is that the external expectations were used as rationale for a sacking, and therefore Liam became a bit of a hostage to them.

Daft, because if Tinnion and Lansdown did think at all and thought it was ok to give that mixed message because of the “everyone does it” point, they didn’t consider the actual situation - which again speaks to their competence 

[W-S-M Seagull]

22 minutes ago, Bob Turnip said:

 

Not sure where I've made any excuses for anyone. Just asked a question.

Where did I say we should be OK with the lies? I'm not OK with the lies, which you'd know if you engaged rather than just assumed.

Of course we should hold people to account for failing. My point being for all we know JL and Tin's said to LM, don't worry about this season, just keep us up and focus on next season (that's just an example before you lose the plot), therefore LM's remit will be different to what we've been told.

I don't think anyone thinks they were being honest about anything, so yes they should be held to account for lying to us.

 

 

Your suggestion of "how do you know this was the remit" was the excuse. 

I believe it was the remit because that's what various people at the club said it was. Trying to suggest that this is maybe not what they said in their private discussions is giving them an excuse. It really annoys me when people say "well we all knew it was tripe anyways" thats just trying to downplay them being dishonest. So what if we all knew it was tripe. Doesnt make their lies more palatable. 

If its suddenly not the remit then we've been lied to. It can't be both. 

Edited February 27 by W-S-M Seagull

[Bob Turnip]

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

It’s definitely an argument as the statement below is arguing (by definition) that LM may have been told something different:

“Just because JL and BT fed us fans a load of tripe, doesn't mean they said the same to LM”.

But away from semantics here, I think you’re definitely on the page that they were dishonest with the fanbase - and that is I think pretty much universally accepted. Where I think your point more is lies in how wise it was (if they did do so) for BT/JL to give different expectations to LM then they articulated externally. And let’s be frank, every football club does that - they all say “we’re going for it this season” when they know 14th might be a success. The difference as I think again we all accept here is that the external expectations were used as rationale for a sacking, and therefore Liam became a bit of a hostage to them.

Daft, because if Tinnion and Lansdown did think at all and thought it was ok to give that mixed message because of the “everyone does it” point, they didn’t consider the actual situation - which again speaks to their competence 

Yes well put. 

I was just trying to move away from Manning being judged based on the exact wording that JL fed us, which some people are doing. Realistically if you take away the anger of NP going the way he did (of which I'm still cross about), and all the lie's, then I think people would be more accepting of Manning needing time to implement.

Yeah, incompetence for sure!!

 

 

 

[petehinton]

It’s not been great, but I find it slightly insane if there are people who genuinely do want him sacked right now. 

[Bob Turnip]

4 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Your suggestion of "how do you know this was the remit" was the excuse. 

I believe it was the remit because that's what various people at the club said it was. 

If its suddenly not the remit then we've been lied to. It can't be both. 

It was a question, which can't really be answered by anyone.

We were obviously lied to.

 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Bob Turnip said:

Yes well put. 

I was just trying to move away from Manning being judged based on the exact wording that JL fed us, which some people are doing. Realistically if you take away the anger of NP going the way he did (of which I'm still cross about), and all the lie's, then I think people would be more accepting of Manning needing time to implement.

Yeah, incompetence for sure!!

 

 

 

I think the key to this discussion is:

- the aim was promotion (stated by both JL and GM, not refuting JL also said “top-end”)

but what JL also said was (paraphrased)

- not getting promotion doesn’t mean he gets sacked

Not aiming this at you Bob, just generally - I don’t think that is a difficult concept for the fanbase to get their heads around.

As others have posted, it’s not binary.

But I do think that LM will’ve been told the aim is promotion (via playoffs).  I honestly don’t think he got asked to deliver something different.

So as Shaggy sang “I wasn’t there”, but it’s not beyond the realms for the conversation to have gone something like this - we think we’ve got a good squad, we think it should be doing better.  We think that with better coaching you could make the difference and if we can get some momentum we could get into the playoffs, we are only 4 points off with two-thirds of the season to go.  That won’t be easy, the Championship is tough, so rest assured not reaching the playoffs isn’t gonna cost you your job.  Here’s a 3.5 year contract because we want you to build on what we have.

[W-S-M Seagull]

12 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

It’s definitely an argument as the statement below is arguing (by definition) that LM may have been told something different:

“Just because JL and BT fed us fans a load of tripe, doesn't mean they said the same to LM”.

But away from semantics here, I think you’re definitely on the page that they were dishonest with the fanbase - and that is I think pretty much universally accepted. Where I think your point more is lies in how wise it was (if they did do so) for BT/JL to give different expectations to LM then they articulated externally. And let’s be frank, every football club does that - they all say “we’re going for it this season” when they know 14th might be a success. The difference as I think again we all accept here is that the external expectations were used as rationale for a sacking, and therefore Liam became a bit of a hostage to them.

Daft, because if Tinnion and Lansdown did think at all and thought it was ok to give that mixed message because of the “everyone does it” point, they didn’t consider the actual situation - which again speaks to their competence 

Something JL said in one of his interviews really bothered me. He said something along the lines of "you can't tell the fans what they don't want to hear" that explains why communication at this club is so shockingly bad. 

In this instance none of us want to hear that they actually got rid of Nige because they wanted to embark on another project. 

They just remain silent which I think makes it worse. Sometimes in life you have to have difficult conversations and say things that people don't want to hear. However you can use that opportunity to try and make people understand why you've done what you've done. 

By remaining silent, all they are doing is allowing us to speculate etc. 

If Liam has different expectations to what Nige was judged on then get out there and explain the reasoning behind that. Explain why this season was wrote off for appointing a manager with a new style. If that's because they believe that gives us a greater chance if long term success then just explain that. 

They've appointed another project manager. Most of us do not have the stomach for another project. But as it is a project, they need to get fans to buy in to that project.

I've seen people all over the place who are quite surprised that people are calling for Liam to be sacked already and I'd suggest the reason people such as myself have been so quick to jump to that position is because the club have not in anyway tried to make me understand the project and why we are having that project. So therefore there is no buy in and there is very little patience for it. Especially when you consider all the reasoning that was given for the change. 

What happened to GM going to FBC to explain the accounts and the make up of Ashton Gate? What happened to thr fans q&a that was due to happen at an away game this season? 

The club are more than happy to use the fans on their social media channels yet the reality is they don't give a crap about us. If they did they would be doing all they could to communicate these things to us. Instead they are just hiding under a rock hoping that it all goes away.

[BCFC31]

46 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

This makes it seem like LM was totally oblivious to the situation he inherited. I would give him enough credit to assume he would know that Pearson was reasonably popular with the fanbase and had achieved a cohesion at the club despite very trying circumstances and constraints.

He would surely thus be aware of the publicly stated reason as to why he had been dismissed (not challenging for the top six). I would like to think, therefore, that even if it wasn't stated in the approach that was made to him to obtain his services as head coach here that he would have, at the very least, the intelligence to realise that the fans and his employers would be ultimately judging him on his ability to produce this outcome and that if he didn't, indeed, if his tenure seen City's position slide even further from the play offs that his job could well be in jeopardy.

 

Personally I feel the conversions in mannings interview and remit given to him were very different to what JL and BT said in the interview to fans. What was said in the media was to appease a very disgruntled fan base and to try and justify sacking nige. Honestly it's the people above manning who are absolute morons and they are destroying the club with there rank amateur behaviour. This team has been set up by nige to counter attack manning does now need time to bring his own player in so he can set the team up to play how he wants again if people have a issue with that then look no further then JL and BT because they have created this whole situation. Forget all the crap about making the players better etc it's absolute nonsense we don't have the personnel to play how manning wants us to play it doesn't take a scientist to work that one out. And I now beileve manning has thankfully worked that out now. Again this isn't mannings fault yes you could argue that he should be playing to there strengths but BT and JL probably told him how they want to see the team play and it wasn't counter attacking football so again if I'm manning I'm going to the board and saying " back me then " otherwise we have no chance. Personally I think manning has been hung out to dry and now everyone is scapegoating him  

Edited February 27 by BCFC31

[W-S-M Seagull]

20 minutes ago, Bob Turnip said:

then I think people would be more accepting of Manning needing time to implement.

No they wouldn't have been. 

The expectation from most of us this season was that this season was the season to kick on after having to go through a reset. There was a clear expectation from most of us that we wanted to see progression this season. 

So even if Nigel left under different circumstances there still wouldn't be people accepting of us appointing someone who needs time. There is zero guarantees that even with time, that will deliver my expectations. 

My pre season expectations have not changed and will not change. Its still the same squad of players. 

[BCFC31]

40 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Your suggestion of "how do you know this was the remit" was the excuse. 

I believe it was the remit because that's what various people at the club said it was. Trying to suggest that this is maybe not what they said in their private discussions is giving them an excuse. It really annoys me when people say "well we all knew it was tripe anyways" thats just trying to downplay them being dishonest. So what if we all knew it was tripe. Doesnt make their lies more palatable. 

If its suddenly not the remit then we've been lied to. It can't be both. 

Well we have obviously been lied to come on look at the state of our jan recruitment? Can you honestly think that's a club " going for it " bird isn't available until next season Murphy isn't even getting u21 games twine is injured because our medical and sports science is a disgrace hickman we already had and mebude is an unknown rookie and then there is that other lad from the conference who isn't here also. We're not going for it in the slightest.

[exAtyeoMax]

37 minutes ago, petehinton said:

It’s not been great, but I find it slightly insane if there are people who genuinely do want him sacked right now. 

I don't think it's worth backing him in the summer though, unless JL and BT go. Get some proper leadership in. 

[BrizzleRed]

6 hours ago, FNQ said:

Sorry, reading your comments above I'm struggling to see why you just couldn't vote on this poll? 

Clearly didn’t explain myself.  

At best, I’d probably give LM to the end of the season.  The problem with that is, I’ve got absolutely no confidence in those two clowns getting a better replacement in, so we’d then be out of the frying pan and into the fire.

The bottom line is, I don’t want to see him here next season, as I honestly don’t see he’s got what it takes.

So it’s a bit tough voting, when whatever you go for, it appears we’d be equally ******!

[fisherrich]

32 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think the key to this discussion is:

- the aim was promotion (stated by both JL and GM, not refuting JL also said “top-end”)

but what JL also said was (paraphrased)

- not getting promotion doesn’t mean he gets sacked

Not aiming this at you Bob, just generally - I don’t think that is a difficult concept for the fanbase to get their heads around.

As others have posted, it’s not binary.

But I do think that LM will’ve been told the aim is promotion (via playoffs).  I honestly don’t think he got asked to deliver something different.

So as Shaggy sang “I wasn’t there”, but it’s not beyond the realms for the conversation to have gone something like this - we think we’ve got a good squad, we think it should be doing better.  We think that with better coaching you could make the difference and if we can get some momentum we could get into the playoffs, we are only 4 points off with two-thirds of the season to go.  That won’t be easy, the Championship is tough, so rest assured not reaching the playoffs isn’t gonna cost you your job.  Here’s a 3.5 year contract because we want you to build on what we have.

Most on here have learnt to ignore all the bull sh#te Zippy and Bungle spout off to the fans.

[W-S-M Seagull]

35 minutes ago, petehinton said:

It’s not been great, but I find it slightly insane if there are people who genuinely do want him sacked right now. 

As one of the first that went with he needs to be sacked, I'll try and try and answer this. 

For me there has been terminal errors in his management. Rushing players back from injury, putting a unfit Twine on the bench and then playing two unfit players at Wednesday and throwing players under the bus. I also have concerns about his lack of a plan b and constantly changing the line up and his in game management. 

Whilst I accept ive gone early on this, I've gone early because I'm looking ahead to the summer. As others have said, giving him a summer and seeing how things go can potentially put us in a bad situation next season. 

Based on what I have seen, I think it would be insane to allow him to rip up this squad and bring in his own players. I would genuinely fear at the very least another season being wrote off and potentially a relegation battle. We will need to have a significant turnover of players for us to even have a chance of being successful under Manning. That's not a risk I want to take. 

I'm of the view it's best to cut our losses and give a new guy time to get to know the squad.

I just can't see Manning significantly changing things for the better especially with those things that I consider to be terminal happening.

[bpexile]

On 25/02/2024 at 04:33, Davefevs said:

But that is in the territory of “if the dog (no pun!!) had stopped for a shit, it wouldn’t have won the race” though isn’t it!

And I think that if NP had been backed instead of being stabbed in the back we would all have been a little more positive but that's only mho .

[exAtyeoMax]

6 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

As one of the first that went with he needs to be sacked, I'll try and try and answer this. 

For me there has been terminal errors in his management. Rushing players back from injury, putting a unfit Twine on the bench and then playing two unfit players at Wednesday and throwing players under the bus. I also have concerns about his lack of a plan b and constantly changing the line up and his in game management. 

Whilst I accept ive gone early on this, I've gone early because I'm looking ahead to the summer. As others have said, giving him a summer and seeing how things go can potentially put us in a bad situation next season. 

Based on what I have seen, I think it would be insane to allow him to rip up this squad and bring in his own players. I would genuinely fear at the very least another season being wrote off and potentially a relegation battle. We will need to have a significant turnover of players for us to even have a chance of being successful under Manning. That's not a risk I want to take. 

I'm of the view it's best to cut our losses and give a new guy time to get to know the squad.

I just can't see Manning significantly changing things for the better especially with those things that I consider to be terminal happening.

I guess his hands are tied, as we speculated upon his appointment. JL and BT have to go. 

I don't see the point of giving him the summer either…

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

It’s definitely an argument as the statement below is arguing (by definition) that LM may have been told something different:

“Just because JL and BT fed us fans a load of tripe, doesn't mean they said the same to LM”.

But away from semantics here, I think you’re definitely on the page that they were dishonest with the fanbase - and that is I think pretty much universally accepted. Where I think your point more is lies in how wise it was (if they did do so) for BT/JL to give different expectations to LM then they articulated externally. And let’s be frank, every football club does that - they all say “we’re going for it this season” when they know 14th might be a success. The difference as I think again we all accept here is that the external expectations were used as rationale for a sacking, and therefore Liam became a bit of a hostage to them.

Daft, because if Tinnion and Lansdown did think at all and thought it was ok to give that mixed message because of the “everyone does it” point, they didn’t consider the actual situation - which again speaks to their competence 

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, petehinton said:

It’s not been great, but I find it slightly insane if there are people who genuinely do want him sacked right now. 

Totally agree

I think most are thinking where are we / what’s it looking like as we step forward , and where are our potential exit points and options if things started to look really concerning 

‘Really concerning’ of course is absolutely subjective

I can also see people’s thoughts and concerns about not sliding into next season , and how much you back him £ and number of changes in the summer.

It is a tricky one but ultimately if you still have any confidence in your recruitment , plan , and appointment you have to stick and back him , 

 

Unkess , of course , and you are professional and ruthless enough to have seen with your close up view that it’s not what you thought and doesn’t look like being.

JL via BT should with their close constant view , be constantly watching , listening and assessing LM every day and week on a rolling and growing basis.

As I’ve alluded to elsewhere BT is actually the man in the spotlight , that’s his job , to execute professionally , well , fairly and if need be ruthlessly

He’s the one around LM , staff, players , everyday , watching sessions , listening at minimum , to pre match preps and briefs , gauging the response from and mood of players etc etc

 

Over to you Brian

[FNQ]

2 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Totally agree

I think most are thinking where are we / what’s it looking like as we step forward , and where are our potential exit points and options if things started to look really concerning 

‘Really concerning’ of course is absolutely subjective

I can also see people’s thoughts and concerns about not sliding into next season , and how much you back him £ and number of changes in the summer.

It is a tricky one but ultimately if you still have any confidence in your recruitment , plan , and appointment you have to stick and back him , 

 

Unkess , of course , and you are professional and ruthless enough to have seen with your close up view that it’s not what you thought and doesn’t look like being.

JL via BT should with their close constant view , be constantly watching , listening and assessing LM every day and week on a rolling and growing basis.

As I’ve alluded to elsewhere BT is actually the man in the spotlight , that’s his job , to execute professionally , well , fairly and if need be ruthlessly

He’s the one around LM , staff, players , everyday , watching sessions , listening at minimum , to pre match preps and briefs , gauging the response from and mood of players etc etc

 

Over to you Brian

Can’t see Brian doing that to be honest..

In reality, JL should be the one to hold his hands up and admit that he’s made a mistake in placing too much trust in BT. Missing out on the playoffs is regrettable but as will be the most likely scenario regressing from last season will be totally unacceptable. JL should get shot of both BT and LM and try and rebuild some credit with not only the fan base but with everyone including sponsors associated with the club.

Cant see JL doing that either to be honest..

[Pippintogg]

The club is in a mess and has been for a long time. When owners and their son wield so much power it is always going to be a problem. In any organisation there needs to be accountability and sadly SL answers to no one, and JL to his Dad. With Wickes closing we've now got the distraction again of more rebuilding off the pitch. The vanity project that is Bristol Sport is becoming a behemoth hanging over everything. BCFC are constantly struggling, the Bears too. No possible sale of the organisation can ever happen apart from US interest who buy into the whole franchise/organisational structure.  That's not likely to happen. We are stuck. As I have said before I don't see LM as a solution and we should have stuck with NP. You could feel and see his relationship with the players by their comments after he left. JL and BT have got a lot wrong and need to admit that. It takes balls to be honest. The run-in could cause us real problems with the current squad/form/attitude. Sadly, my final prediction is 18th. Just another wasted season. Anyway, if you want a chuckle. https://www.facebook.com/share/v/q8D6szQZneaMNDnp/?startTimeMs=2040