Red-Robbo Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 For Doncaster Rovers, yes - it is an achievement for them to be in the Championship. Mourinho must be terrified! Seriously, he was half decent at Bournemouth. Took them as far as they could go under him, although Eddie Howe has obviously taken them much further. He had some success with Donny, although successively poorer seasons there gives lie to this idea that his long-term coaching plan implants some sort of winning mentality. He came to us with an over-inflated reputation and an over-inflated ego. He thought he was so infallible, and he was making progress, when everyone else could see a team in freefall. IF he has learnt from his experience here, there's no reason why he can't do a decent job for the Scousers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodburyred Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Mourinho must be terrified! Seriously, he was half decent at Bournemouth. Took them as far as they could go under him, although Eddie Howe has obviously taken them much further. He had some success with Donny, although successively poorer seasons there gives lie to this idea that his long-term coaching plan implants some sort of winning mentality. He came to us with an over-inflated reputation and an over-inflated ego. He thought he was so infallible, and he was making progress, when everyone else could see a team in freefall. IF he has learnt from his experience here, there's no reason why he can't do a decent job for the Scousers. He seemed outdated to me. As if he thought he was the only person in the lower leagues who could get a team to play with the ball on the floor. For what its worth though I think he'd do a good job as just a coach being told what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 It's the relativity though Spud. I know it is not your intention but from the above some could read that and think 'but there's no mention of the adverse circumstances SC had to deal with when he arrived - including our worst sustained run of form in history'. I think that's why some of your posts seem to attract a great deal of response. Personally my opinion is that I don't think it took SOD to tell a few people they were stupid, I think the penny had already dropped prior to SOD and that's why SOD was brought in - they already came round to my way of thinking wasn't it? The point I'm making is the strategy changed before he came in and whilst he contributed, I don't think the contribution was anywhere near enough to justify his position or justify his performance and I think we would've gotten there in spite of SOD. SoD didn't tell people they were stupid....when he said that 'the Club has changed in a sense, and in some ways the Club have come around to my way of thinking' He was meaning that he liked the way the Club had developed under Mcinnes before him, he liked the stability of the ownership and that because of that he felt he could work with the Clubs new ethos. All this was said when he joined. SoD didn't change the Clubs ethos...he implemented it, and made suggestions, and worked with the Club into making it stronger and more sustainable for the future....so that any manager could work seamlessly when they came in. That was what the Club wanted and needed. SoD was under no illusion that he would be here for a long time. He developed and worked with the Club.... It's been a Club in transition....the transition is still going on. For example...SoD mentioned to me that there was no connection as such between how the Academy and the development squads were working, and to how the first team worked. He wanted that to become closer and the Club to work as one. That transition is still taking place...big changes....under 18's moving up to develop quicker in the under 21's, and now Wade taking over the 21's and developing the players to how SC wants them to play...making it seamless. All these transitions within the Club are taking shape...SC is still working with the Club to make these changes. But like anything it takes time to change. SC did brilliant last year...but he wouldn't have been able to do it so well, unless those changes had taken place. Hopefully we will start to see an even bigger benefit when Academy players start to step up as well. We are definitely going in the right direction....a true test will come, when SC eventually leaves, and we will see whether the Club really are seamless and strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 All these transitions within the Club are taking shape...SC is still working with the Club to make these changes. But like anything it takes time to change. I pick out that sentence because I think that's largely where much of the disagreements stem from. I agree wholeheartedly with everything said there, in particularly that anything changing takes time. I think where I depart and others also is SOD's changes did not really have enough time to have such an impact which meant they paved the way for SC. I know you weren't using it as an example but to take your point about development.. it's too soon for any changes (positive or negative) to be identified, SC didn't rely upon/use that pool of players and I believe SC could in the fullness of time had sorted out this area. For me the most important aspect of being a good manager is picking your battles and priorities first. In my opinion SOD got it completely wrong by trying to build Rome in a day when he should have taken it task by task by task, but always with a focus on the first team. I can see he laid some foundations and this meant SC didn't need to concern himself with getting some parts in order but my counter is our last two managers pre-SOD were relative newbies with no real idea or experience of running a club the size of ours. I think any experienced manager would have walked in and identified the issues but I also stand by what I said before, SOD bit off more than he could chew whereas it was far more important that he recess the first team's slide whilst tackling our wider frailties bit by bit by bit. He died by the sword, but I think he was foolish in the way he approached his task and there's nothing valiant in that. Personally I don't think SOD did anything that another experienced coach wouldn't have cleared up whilst also getting the first team better results. Put it this way, I think an old hat manager with plenty of nous, someone like Paul Sturrock.... or even Steve Cotterill, could have achieved far, far more in the same amount of time but because they don't preach like SOD they don't share his relatively fashionable status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I pick out that sentence because I think that's largely where much of the disagreements stem from. I agree wholeheartedly with everything said there, in particularly that anything changing takes time. I think where I depart and others also is SOD's changes did not really have enough time to have such an impact which meant they paved the way for SC. I know you weren't using it as an example but to take your point about development.. it's too soon for any changes (positive or negative) to be identified, SC didn't rely upon/use that pool of players and I believe SC could in the fullness of time had sorted out this area. For me the most important aspect of being a good manager is picking your battles and priorities first. In my opinion SOD got it completely wrong by trying to build Rome in a day when he should have taken it task by task by task, but always with a focus on the first team. I can see he laid some foundations and this meant SC didn't need to concern himself with getting some parts in order but my counter is our last two managers pre-SOD were relative newbies with no real idea or experience of running a club the size of ours. I think any experienced manager would have walked in and identified the issues but I also stand by what I said before, SOD bit off more than he could chew whereas it was far more important that he recess the first team's slide whilst tackling our wider frailties bit by bit by bit. He died by the sword, but I think he was foolish in the way he approached his task and there's nothing valiant in that. Personally I don't think SOD did anything that another experienced coach wouldn't have cleared up whilst also getting the first team better results. Put it this way, I think an old hat manager with plenty of nous, someone like Paul Sturrock.... or even Steve Cotterill, could have achieved far, far more in the same amount of time but because they don't preach like SOD they don't share his relatively fashionable status. We will never know fella...as SoD left when he did. And imho...it was the right decision at the time...but for non footballing reasons. SoD was starting to get a few results together...SC took that momentum and used the loan system well, and that momentum and upturn in fortunes continued. There is nothing to say SoD couldn't have got us to safety too and then rebuilt like SC did...but we will never know. The biggest turn around came when we were able to release and sell and recruit again in the summer. It's worth reminding ourselves of that 2013/14 season, and how many players we had....how much dross...how little SoD was able to spend....who he brought in....and then who SC brought in, and was eventually able to sell and release. This link will show you....the list of players is ridiculous when you look at it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%9314_Bristol_City_F.C._season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 We will never know fella...as SoD left when he did. And imho...it was the right decision at the time...but for non footballing reasons. SoD was starting to get a few results together..] Hid last two results were a home loss and a home draw. It was clear no lessons had been learned and we still were not a very effective playing unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Being reported that poor little Raheem has refused to go on tour with Liverpool and has pulled a sickie, bless him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Arguably SOD is the only manager to truly get the best out of Jet. By the same logic, I wonder if he can improve another similar enigma - Balotelli. FWIW, reading from the input of posters with inside knowledge, circumstances obviously played a big part in SOD. We'll never know whether he would have turned it round. I'd guess we wouldn't have been relegated, but certainly wouldn't have finished as well as we did under SC but that's academic now. S'OD may have been a better appointment after GJ left, but probably wouldn't have approved of David James being bought in either like Coppell! His obvious weakness was PR, I thought his comments after the rovers game - singling out the fans unprompted for criticism - were very poor. Hope he does well in Liverpool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Robbo can you explain how baldock, fielding, flint, Williams, Bryan, pack all improved after sod left and cotts started to coach them?, Cotterill reaped the benefits of the seeds sown by SoD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Arguably SOD is the only manager to truly get the best out of Jet. By the same logic, I wonder if he can improve another similar enigma - Balotelli. I doubt even saf could get the best out of that waster, All the talent in the world but just doesn't apply himself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Cotterill reaped the benefits of the seeds sown by SoD. By dropping fielding saying Flint wasn't worth the money playing baldock as a target man? You are deluded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I doubt even saf could get the best out of that waster, All the talent in the world but just doesn't apply himself I think he could be excellent, with the right man management and patience! Hope so, as he's a good guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Cotterill reaped the benefits of the seeds sown by SoD. God just imagine if England win the world cup the next 100 years, SOD's work with the Under 19's will see him canonised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I think he could be excellent, with the right man management and patience! Hope so, as he's a good guy. Me too I do like the lad and when he wants to he is fantastic, Mancini is the only one to get the best out of him so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slacker Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Being reported that poor little Raheem has refused to go on tour with Liverpool and has pulled a sickie, bless him.Liverpool have become a real joke of a club over the last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshtonGreat Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Cotterill reaped the benefits of the seeds sown by SoD. We will never know for certain, but ask yourself: would we have won the title last season if SOD had stayed? Or, let's make the comparison even simpler, would we have won the title last season if SOD had stayed AND HAD THE SAME PLAYERS as SC? I think the answer to both questions is no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashtonboy Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Arguably SOD is the only manager to truly get the best out of Jet. By the same logic, I wonder if he can improve another similar enigma - Balotelli. FWIW, reading from the input of posters with inside knowledge, circumstances obviously played a big part in SOD. We'll never know whether he would have turned it round. I'd guess we wouldn't have been relegated, but certainly wouldn't have finished as well as we did under SC but that's academic now. S'OD may have been a better appointment after GJ left, but probably wouldn't have approved of David James being bought in either like Coppell!His obvious weakness was PR, I thought his comments after the rovers game - singling out the fans unprompted for criticism - were very poor. Hope he does well in Liverpool. No!. His obvious weakness was that the players hated him, the fans hated him and he was ******* useless to boot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 No!. His obvious weakness was that the players hated him, the fans hated him and he was ******* useless to boot! The players didn't hate him.. At all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashtonboy Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 The players didn't hate him.. At all.. No! it was obvious to all, they thoroughly enjoyed his term here and all the success it brought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 No! it was obvious to all, they thoroughly enjoyed his term here and all the success it brought. The players genuinely didn't dislike him, it was a multitude of factors that contributed to us doing badly but that wasn't one. Take everything at face value if you want, but this club was in huge decline in the seasons preceding relegation, was going to take a while to stop the rot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I can't be assertive but my understanding too is that SOD still 'had the dressing room', which to my mind only makes some of the abject performances even worse. If he'd lost the squad then that would at least be some mitigation for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashtonboy Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 The players genuinely didn't dislike him, it was a multitude of factors that contributed to us doing badly but that wasn't one. Take everything at face value if you want, but this club was in huge decline in the seasons preceding relegation, was going to take a while to stop the rot. Absolutely accept that the club was in severe decline, which makes it even more incredible that the club appointed such a manager who lacked any kind of media skills or obvious motivational ability. Would you have enjoyed playing for such an embarrassing excuse for a manager, after watching or listening to one of his after match performances. I think the players would have been as mortified as the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Red Hat Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Several players said, when SoD was sacked, that they were absolutely gutted that he'd left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Absolutely accept that the club was in severe decline, which makes it even more incredible that the club appointed such a manager who lacked any kind of media skills or obvious motivational ability. Would you have enjoyed playing for such an embarrassing excuse for a manager, after watching or listening to one of his after match performances. I think the players would have been as mortified as the rest of us. I know a player in the squad and trust me, the players didn't dislike him; many felt personally responsible for his sacking. Whether you would be motivated by him is all relative, many of the players felt like they learned a lot under him. I question his PR completely, as I mentioned about the rovers game, but that doesn't mean the players themselves didn't like him. We'll never know whether he'd of turned it round but I think he's probably better suited to an assistant manager/coach role with less emphasis on his PR skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Absolutely accept that the club was in severe decline, which makes it even more incredible that the club appointed such a manager who lacked any kind of media skills or obvious motivational ability. Would you have enjoyed playing for such an embarrassing excuse for a manager, after watching or listening to one of his after match performances. I think the players would have been as mortified as the rest of us. The players never hated him I don't think they've ever hated a manager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I see Stirling doesn't want to play for Rogers, If he were my player I'd make him see out his contract rotting in the under 21's doesn't deserve to be a footballer or play for England The lad is a disgrace to professional football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I see Stirling doesn't want to play for Rogers, If he were my player I'd make him see out his contract rotting in the under 21's doesn't deserve to be a footballer or play for England The lad is a disgrace to professional football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 No!. His obvious weakness was that the players hated him, the fans hated him and he was ******* useless to boot! Not true by a long chalk. Most of them respected his knowledge and admired his coaching skills. The one manager who all but one hated was Gary Johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Absolutely accept that the club was in severe decline, which makes it even more incredible that the club appointed such a manager who lacked any kind of media skills or obvious motivational ability. Would you have enjoyed playing for such an embarrassing excuse for a manager, after watching or listening to one of his after match performances. I think the players would have been as mortified as the rest of us. I think you'll find the players actually enjoyed playing for SoD and blamed themselves for the performances, not him, as they could see what he was trying to instil in them. What players and managers find hard to deal with, are stupid fans and media who have no idea about football. Bugger... I bit...Grrrrrrrrrrr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I know a player in the squad and trust me, the players didn't dislike him; many felt personally responsible for his sacking. Whether you would be motivated by him is all relative, many of the players felt like they learned a lot under him. I question his PR completely, as I mentioned about the rovers game, but that doesn't mean the players themselves didn't like him. We'll never know whether he'd of turned it round but I think he's probably better suited to an assistant manager/coach role with less emphasis on his PR skills. So the players should feel responsible. He was let down massively be high earning senior players in particular. I actually agree with your last sentence. He's a future DoF in the making too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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