Harry Cornick

[pongo88]

14 hours ago, GrahamC said:

At this stage in his career (12 Championship goals in 30 starts 8 sub appearances last season) then I’d suggest that he was certainly better than Sam Bell, but I don’t think that’s the answer you’re after & 320 minutes spread over 3 starts & 7 sub ones is clearly plenty for you to have made a definitive decision.

As has been pointed out by others he actually replaced Chris Martin, who is 34 & now on the way down, but again that’s not the answer you’re after, is it?

I always feel that it’s dangerous to just look at one season to judge a player. With Cornick, last season was good, but what about his entire career? According to Wiki his league record is:

3 goals at non league level over 2 seasons.

19 goals at leagues 1&2 level over 4 seasons.

23 goals at Championship level over nearly 4 seasons. Of these 23 goals, 12 came last season, with the other seasons producing 9, 1, and1 respectively. Stats can sometimes be a bit misleading, as some of the seasons he was a young player and he’s bound to have had injuries etc. However, he’s 27 and has only managed to score 45 league goals with half of his career below Championship level. 

Obviously goals aren’t everything as he’s played in a variety of positions, and has provided a number of assists, but what does he bring to the team? Time will tell 

[ExiledAjax]

Most strikers signed in January struggle in the second part of the season. Think I posted it a few seasons ago when Newcastle signed Wood - but most strikers signed in the winter window fail to score 5 goals in the remainder of the season (normally about 18 - 20 games if signed on deadline day). Wood himself vindicated my doubts and the stats in the end with his two goals in 17 games for Newcastle at the back end of 2021/22.

If Cornick scores one goal between now and the end of the season then he will have done better than most January striker signings. 

@pongo88 full stats are at fbref.com. https://fbref.com/en/players/9169bc41/Harry-Cornick

Over his entire career he's sitting on 0.23 goals per 90 minutes (42 in 16,244 minutes). In an uncanny match up that's also his record at Championship level (23 in 9,133 minutes). As you say that Champ record is across 4 seasons. Other than last season and this one he's actually been pretty regular for Luton in the Championship. In the three seasons for Luton 2019 through to 2022 he played 3,085, 2,557, and 2,359 minutes across 123 games (95 starts). Max number of league minutes in a season is 4,140 (46 x 90).

He's not prolific. Not as prolific historically as Wells or Martin at this level or other recent strikers such as Diedhiou - all of whom are 1 in 3 strikers at Champ level. But he's got a goals/90 record that matches up to Weimann (bar his own freak season last term).

A comparison of the total Championship careers of Cornick and five slightly random but vaguely relevant strikers. He actually stacks up reasonably well, especially his goals/shot ratio. That suggests that, like many of our strikers, when he does shoot it's a good and dangerous shot...he needs to shoot more often though as 1.61 shots per game is low for a striker.

[ExiledAjax]

Just now, Percy Pig said:

Hang it in the Louvre.

*past performance does not necessarily guarantee future results.

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, pongo88 said:

I always feel that it’s dangerous to just look at one season to judge a player. With Cornick, last season was good, but what about his entire career? According to Wiki his league record is:

3 goals at non league level over 2 seasons.

19 goals at leagues 1&2 level over 4 seasons.

23 goals at Championship level over nearly 4 seasons. Of these 23 goals, 12 came last season, with the other seasons producing 9, 1, and1 respectively. Stats can sometimes be a bit misleading, as some of the seasons he was a young player and he’s bound to have had injuries etc. However, he’s 27 and has only managed to score 45 league goals with half of his career below Championship level. 

Obviously goals aren’t everything as he’s played in a variety of positions, and has provided a number of assists, but what does he bring to the team? Time will tell 

I think some of that is fair, but can’t see the point in going back further than his last 4 seasons.

He said himself he was a late developer, he’s not an Academy product but has as you point out, played 4 seasons of Championship football in a row with certainly an inconsistent scoring record.

I’ll be interested to see what Pearson thinks is going to be his best position, because at present we seem to be rotating a lot of players in the front three (goalkeeper aside the only area we really have choice) & nobody is really nailing down a spot.

Having a good pre season will be key for him as will building up an understanding with whoever else is picked.

I’m not expecting him to ever be prolific but (unlike some) I’m not writing him off just yet, either.

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Most strikers signed in January struggle in the second part of the season. Think I posted it a few seasons ago when Newcastle signed Wood - but most strikers signed in the winter window fail to score 5 goals in the remainder of the season (normally about 18 - 20 games if signed on deadline day). Wood himself vindicated my doubts and the stats in the end with his two goals in 17 games for Newcastle at the back end of 2021/22.

If Cornick scores one goal between now and the end of the season then he will have done better than most January striker signings. 

@pongo88 full stats are at fbref.com. https://fbref.com/en/players/9169bc41/Harry-Cornick

Over his entire career he's sitting on 0.23 goals per 90 minutes (42 in 16,244 minutes). In an uncanny match up that's also his record at Championship level (23 in 9,133 minutes). As you say that Champ record is across 4 seasons. Other than last season and this one he's actually been pretty regular for Luton in the Championship. In the three seasons for Luton 2019 through to 2022 he played 3,085, 2,557, and 2,359 minutes across 123 games (95 starts). Max number of league minutes in a season is 4,140 (46 x 90).

He's not prolific. Not as prolific historically as Wells or Martin at this level or other recent strikers such as Diedhiou - all of whom are 1 in 3 strikers at Champ level. But he's got a goals/90 record that matches up to Weimann (bar his own freak season last term).

A comparison of the total Championship careers of Cornick and five slightly random but vaguely relevant strikers. He actually stacks up reasonably well, especially his goals/shot ratio. That suggests that, like many of our strikers, when he does shoot it's a good and dangerous shot...he needs to shoot more often though as 1.61 shots per game is low for a striker.

The point I was making is that it’s important to consider a player’s record over a number of seasons, not just the last  season, for example Weimann or Flint a few seasons ago when he scored 15 goals. I think most people accept that he’s not a prolific scorer but I pointed out goals aren’t everything, as he’s played in a variety of positions, and has provided a number of assists. (That’s why I’m not a great fan of statistics, which are just raw data. What’s necessary is information, which is data with context) 
 

My last question - What does he bring to the team? - is the bit that worries me. So far he hasn’t demonstrated any real pace which is how the team likes to play on the break. The biggest disappointment for me is he lacks “presence”. Often City play against teams that have a couple of big tough central defenders and the forwards look a bit weak and are bullied off the ball. It would be nice to have a tough forward who could hold his own. Of course, the problem is, where do you get that type of Championship player for the money City were prepared to pay? 

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

I’ll be interested to see what Pearson thinks is going to be his best position, because at present we seem to be rotating a lot of players in the front three (goalkeeper aside the only area we really have choice) & nobody is really nailing down a spot.

Having a good pre season will be key for him as will building up an understanding with whoever else is picked.

I’m not expecting him to ever be prolific but (unlike some) I’m not writing him off just yet, either.

 

Left Back in the changing room?  

No, seriously I agree with your post. I don't think we can make the measure of him yet and summer and the start of the new season will really be the time to give a verdict.

I'd just rather see fewer underwhelming performances and Harry seems to be at the heart of most of those recently, so I'd rather not see his name appearing in the starting line-up for the Reading game.

Some people seem to have decided that Pearson can do no wrong in the transfer market, but of course he, like every manager in fact, can. Danny Simpson is a case in point. People will point out how cheap Simpson was, but paying an over-the-hill player who was slower than a pensioner going around Asda, for nearly one and a half seasons was a poor use of resources IMO. 

For now, I reserve judgement on Cornick, but I'd rather see less of him, until he has a pre-season with the club. 

[ExiledAjax]

20 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

The point I was making is that it’s important to consider a player’s record over a number of seasons, not just the last  season, for example Weimann or Flint a few seasons ago when he scored 15 goals. I think most people accept that he’s not a prolific scorer but I pointed out goals aren’t everything, as he’s played in a variety of positions, and has provided a number of assists. (That’s why I’m not a great fan of statistics, which are just raw data. What’s necessary is information, which is data with context) 

Yes. I should have made it clear that my post was intented to provide further stats - you said you'd just been on Wikipedia and I got the impression you were after some more detailed stuff. I meant to support what you were saying about single season bias rather than contradict anything.

Edited March 21, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[Simon bristol]

He maybe a replacement for martin, but was he really worth the cost of paying martin off, the transfer/ signing on/ agents fee plus the wage? I dont see anything he offers that conway doesnt and certainly not the big strong forward who scores goals that we are all identifying.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, pongo88 said:

The point I was making is that it’s important to consider a player’s record over a number of seasons, not just the last  season, for example Weimann or Flint a few seasons ago when he scored 15 goals. I think most people accept that he’s not a prolific scorer but I pointed out goals aren’t everything, as he’s played in a variety of positions, and has provided a number of assists. (That’s why I’m not a great fan of statistics, which are just raw data. What’s necessary is information, which is data with context) 
 

My last question - What does he bring to the team? - is the bit that worries me. So far he hasn’t demonstrated any real pace which is how the team likes to play on the break. The biggest disappointment for me is he lacks “presence”. Often City play against teams that have a couple of big tough central defenders and the forwards look a bit weak and are bullied off the ball. It would be nice to have a tough forward who could hold his own. Of course, the problem is, where do you get that type of Championship player for the money City were prepared to pay? 

Lots of stuff to ponder with Cornick.

I think he was a useful player for Luton.  For City, so far, he’s been a bit disappointing.  Here’s the games he’s featured in, and also shows his cup-tied game too.

I thought his first couple of subs showed a bit of rustiness, but also the hustle and bustle and pressing of opponent defences that I expected.  I thought his performance in his first start v Wigan was pretty decent.  Got  in amongst them, tried to link up, got down the sides.  I thought we lost a bit when he came off.

The next group of sub appearances were a bit mixed, probably a bit below par…although I thought he did what I expected against Blackpool as we saw out the game.  Luton we were crap as a team and he was no worse than others, in fact I thought he was better than quite a few, albeit seriously low bar!  Swansea he got little service early on, as he watched aimless balls hit into the channel which he was expected to chase.  Then he started to get a ball into feet, laid off or got fouled as we had a decent spell.  So he was “ok” in a below-par team kind of way.

He’s not hit the heights I expected.  But I don’t think he’s been as bad as others are making out.  But I agree he’s been below the 6/10 I’d normally give someone “earning their corn(ick)”.

As it stands I think his timing is out.  He is used to getting around and working off of another player(s) (Adebayo and / or Jerome and / or Morris).  So his game is about anticipating where the second ball is gonna be, not positioning himself for the first ball.  That’s quite a fundamental change.  Luton hit the front man / men as their first instinct and it’s Cornick’s job to get the next ball.  That’s a massive over-simplification of their game plan, but ours is different.  He’s adjusting to ours.  He’s now the first man, the target.  Much as I was critical of Diedhiou, at times he was sublime…sublime when his timing was aligned to the timing of the service from his teammates. If you’ve ever played back to goal or been the channel runner, timing is so important.

I’m convinced Cornick will improve / adjust.  Although you can definitely raise question marks about his fit to the way we play, versus what he’s come from.  Time will tell.

On an aside I think his running style is a bit like a dressage horse, but I don’t think he’s slow.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Davefevs

[spudski]

No sure whether this has been shared on this thread, but it gives an insight to the player. 

 

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, pongo88 said:

The biggest disappointment for me is he lacks “presence”.

My 2p….for 2.5 seasons this was kinda labelled at Nahki Wells too.  Now, I read / hear people commenting on his ability as a “target man”, “back to goal”, “link-up man”, etc.

Just now, spudski said:

No sure whether this has been shared on this thread, but it gives an insight to the player. 

 

 

Yeah, was shared at the time the transfer rumours started / he was signed.  It’s a really good insight into him.

[Steve Watts]

19 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Because he had an injury.

Dave, that's very generous.  That was back in August in fairness,  After the game on 30/8 he's been available for all but one matchday squad since then (and that was way back in September), so again, you would like to think he'd be able to get his fitness up together inside 4 months.

Like I said, I'm certainly not writing him off and really want him to be a success, as with all of our signings, obviously, but at the moment he's not shown what he's about so far.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Steve Watts said:

Dave, that's very generous.  That was back in August in fairness,  After the game on 30/8 he's been available for all but one matchday squad since then (and that was way back in September), so again, you would like to think he'd be able to get his fitness up together inside 4 months.

Like I said, I'm certainly not writing him off and really want him to be a success, as with all of our signings, obviously, but at the moment he's not shown what he's about so far.

He said he had niggles after that too.  It might be generous, I just see a player who hasn’t had a run of starts at Luton nor here of late struggling to adapt to a new way of playing.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

 He’s now the first man, the target.  Much as I was critical of Diedhiou, at times he was sublime…sublime when his timing was aligned to the timing of the service from his teammates. If you’ve ever played back to goal or been the channel runner, timing is so important.

I’m convinced Cornick will improve / adjust.  Although you can definitely raise question marks about his fit to the way we play, versus what he’s come from.  Time will tell.

On an aside I think his running style is a bit like a dressage horse, but I don’t think he’s slow.

I can't see his strengths, long term, as being the first man target Dave. I really hope we aren't looking to try and turn him into that. 

I was hoping he was going to be the front right of a three up front. With say Bell, Conway, Cornick as the three. Cornick being the competition for where Sykes has been playing. 

His strengths as a player over recent years has been blocking and tackling defenders, assists, taking players on, acceleration, direct running, short term pace. 

As a 'central target man'...he's neither strong, aggressive, good at holding the ball with his back to goal, and definitely weak at Arial duals. 

I thought he'd suit our style of play with a high press and counter attack. 

He's had a purple patch in the past centrally, but it was a one off imo. 

He's also gone, not so long ago, 41 games without a goal. 

I hope we aren't long term trying a square peg in a round hole. 

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

I can't see his strengths, long term, as being the first man target Dave. I really hope we aren't looking to try and turn him into that.

agree…nor me, and I don’t think we want to play like that anyway.  Wells (and even more so with Conway and Semenyo) that you don’t need the typical “target man” to be able to function.

I was hoping he was going to be the front right of a three up front. With say Bell, Conway, Cornick as the three. Cornick being the competition for where Sykes has been playing.

…albeit, likely to play narrower than Sykes.

His strengths as a player over recent years has been blocking and tackling defenders, assists, taking players on, acceleration, direct running, short term pace.

yep.

As a 'central target man'...he's neither strong, aggressive, good at holding the ball with his back to goal, and definitely weak at Arial duals.

agreed.

I thought he'd suit our style of play with a high press and counter attack. 

He's had a purple patch in the past centrally, but it was a one off imo.

“Support striker” not goalscorer per se is how I saw him.

He's also gone, not so long ago, 41 games without a goal. 

I hope we aren't long term trying a square peg in a round hole.

hope not too, Nige does talk about having different options.  Would like to see more of him with more of a first-choice eleven available too.

[AppyDAZE]

On 19/03/2023 at 14:43, wendyredredrobin said:

Looks like we sold a diamond and bought a lemon.

That'll help the lad. That is unless you don't want to.

[Offside]

Cornick’s City career has started slowly, but it’s early days and time will tell. The difficulty so far is that it’s been hard to see what type of player he is and what his strengths are, whereas with a player like Mehmeti it’s more obvious. 

One thing that did impress me about him was when he was instrumental in keeping the ball at the other end of the pitch when we were seeing a game out at AG (can’t remember which game, though)  

 

[wendyredredrobin]

1 hour ago, AppyDAZE said:

That'll help the lad. That is unless you don't want to.

Of course I would like to see him doing his job and scoring goals, but so far I've seen nothing to impress me as regards strength, pace, skill, ability to pass a ball to a team mate or hold up play. I really can't understand what out scouts were able to see in him.  But of course, I would love him to prove me wrong. 

He certainly seems to make an effort but his output is close to zero. Not the sort of player to bring on when you want to change a game and doesn't look up to L1 football, let alone Championship based on what he's done so far.

Probably the best way to help him would be to transfer him to a L2 team where he might be able to make an impact (and even at that level, I'm not convinced).

[Son of Fred]

5 minutes ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Of course I would like to see him doing his job and scoring goals, but so far I've seen nothing to impress me as regards strength, pace, skill, ability to pass a ball to a team mate or hold up play. I really can't understand what out scouts were able to see in him.  But of course, I would love him to prove me wrong. 

He certainly seems to make an effort but his output is close to zero. Not the sort of player to bring on when you want to change a game and doesn't look up to L1 football, let alone Championship based on what he's done so far.

Probably the best way to help him would be to transfer him to a L2 team where he might be able to make an impact (and even at that level, I'm not convinced).

Abridged version...

Technically poor.

[DaveF]

53 minutes ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Of course I would like to see him doing his job and scoring goals, but so far I've seen nothing to impress me as regards strength, pace, skill, ability to pass a ball to a team mate or hold up play. I really can't understand what out scouts were able to see in him.  But of course, I would love him to prove me wrong. 

He certainly seems to make an effort but his output is close to zero. Not the sort of player to bring on when you want to change a game and doesn't look up to L1 football, let alone Championship based on what he's done so far.

Probably the best way to help him would be to transfer him to a L2 team where he might be able to make an impact (and even at that level, I'm not convinced).

12 goals and 5 assists in 38 appearances last season suggests he's certainly good enough for this level...

[wendyredredrobin]

52 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

accurate abridged version: 

Insulting, vindictive claptrap spouted by a non entity with no experience or knowledge of the game of football.

 

So what kind of entity might you be? Oink oink.

Just stating that he looks useless and giving examples to demonstrate.  Now please keep it civil.

[Hatter passing by]

29 minutes ago, DaveF said:

12 goals and 5 assists in 38 appearances last season suggests he's certainly good enough for this level...

View from a Hatter who won't stay here long.

I would say after 6 years at Luton (and largely under one Manager) that Cornick completely understood his role in the team. What to do, how to do, where to go, when to go, this had been instilled in him to the point you could say he was institutionalised. In terms of fitness, he hardly ever missed a game and he produced over 800m of short sprints per game and he was specifically adept at the press. His finishing was inconsistent, last year being the outlier, as you never felt he would score one on ones, certainly not instinctive. His big asset is pace and was more effective in away games where teams attacked Luton and left space behind, less so at home where low blocks were employed against us and he's not got a trick or technical ability to beat a player in close environments.

He has never ever ever ever played as a Number 9 with back to goal, holding play, winning headers etc and the idea that he can improve and be trained to do this seems odd to me. Played off a big man he plays decent enough in a 2 and wide right in a 3, not convinced there's another position for him. I genuinely wish him well, he was brilliant for us, in our regimented system (has been some changes since Edwards came in) and would've kept him as a back up/impact sub but understood the financial opportunity for him and chance to play. Just think the due diligence on him when recruiting was missing a lot of pages of detail...

 

 

 

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, Percy Pig said:

accurate abridged version: 

Insulting, vindictive claptrap spouted by a non entity with no experience or knowledge of the game of football.

 

That’s a rather uncouth reply. Why not be couth? 

[pongo88]

51 minutes ago, DaveF said:

12 goals and 5 assists in 38 appearances last season suggests he's certainly good enough for this level...

Last season was a fluke as in his previous 3 seasons at Championship level he only scored a total of 11 goals. In a previous post I mentioned the danger in only referring to one season in isolation and the danger of using raw statistics without supporting information to put it into context 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Percy Pig said:

accurate abridged version: 

Insulting, vindictive claptrap spouted by a non entity with no experience or knowledge of the game of football.

 

Plus it’s also perfectly possible to be technically poor and effective / performing.  Plenty of players in the past haven’t been technically blessed but been good for us.

Anyone who’s watched him at Luton would know that he’s not a technician.  That’s not his skillset, but he brings other things…just not shown them yet.  

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

unfortunately you're about as funny as Miranda. 

Haha, that made me laugh.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Percy Pig said:

You're calling one of our newest players useless and should play at a level beneath the sags and have the cheek to demand anyone else keeps it civil? You embody everything that's wrong with our fanbase and society in general, Wendy. Hypocritical, over the top and nasty with it.

You should be embarrassed. Being kind, perhaps you were trying to be funny, unfortunately you're about as funny as Miranda. 

 

Regardless of whether you think Wendy is voicing a ridiculous opinion , this is a discussion forum and she is entitled to her view. 

I'm with you on waiting to see if he works out as intended, but I'm probably less certain that he will. 

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Regardless of whether you think Wendy is voicing a ridiculous opinion , this is a discussion forum and she is entitled to her view. 

I'm with you on waiting to see if he works out as intended, but I'm probably less certain that he will. 

I’d always assumed Wendy wasn’t anything to do with the poster’s gender, but a joke on “when the red red Robin”, but like “biggus dickus” or “nautious maximus”!

[maxjak]

On 20/03/2023 at 18:15, Percy Pig said:

Martin was not a former player when he signed. Cornick's signing allowed us to tear up Martins contract.

Therefore he is better than what we had at the time. Unless of course we are rewriting history and claiming Martin wasn't the whipping boy for his last 6 months here? 

 Pedant.....

[Red-Robbo]

28 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

 

I spoke privately to another poster on here the other day about Cornick and my theory is that his ungainly style is the main reason City fans have not taken to him. I cannot remember a single ungainly player who has been liked by our fansbase. One of my first memories as a kid watching City was the pelters Steve Torpey got, a player I genuinely thought was very good. Same season the absolute dogs abuse Ward would get for leaving out Goodridge who whilst fun to watch produced very little. 

 

 

I don't care if he runs like a dog with three legs, my main issue is he's had 390 minutes, spread over 10 appearances and hasn't produced anything of note, so - while we have other options who have produced results for us - I'd go with them. At least until summer.

If he starts scoring and providing assists, I will "take to him", as, I imagine, will most others.